The Burnt City

[Celsus]

The "Burnt City" (its name and people are still unknown) in Iran has now finished its 8th season of excavations, and is one of the oldest cities in the region at about 5200 years old. Ironically in a country where women's rights are trampled on every day, it has signs that this city was matriarchal, or at least that many women held considerable power in the city.

5000 Years Ago, Women Held Power In Burnt City, Iran (http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_5089.shtml):
According to Sajjadi, during the excavations in the burnt city cemetery, 90% of the graves in which the seals were found belonged to women. Only 5% of these seals were found in men's graves.

Sajjadi said, "Since we know that seals were buried with their owners 5000 years ago, it is reasonable to think the most important seals for the economic activities in the burnt city belonged to women. As the men worked as farmers and craftsmen away from the city, they reasonably had to give the seals to women who were always in the city, so that they were able to solve the problems of the city immediately."
Alternatively, the city had a burial ritual of the men throwing in their seals into the tombs when women were buried. :P In other discoveries at the Burnt City, the world's oldest backgammon set was discovered, along with these cool dice:

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/uploads/backgammon_001.jpg

Not only that, a tomb was recently discovered with a female with silver earrings, disproving a theory that women of the city didn't wear earrings (yes, archaeologists dispute this sort of stuff, as they thumb through their latest copies of Elle). Actually, up to that point, while all sorts of jewelry had been discovered, earrings had not. Alongside the earrings was a hand mirror, buried next to the corpse, possibly not the best choice of items to take into the afterlife with you (especially if you know some asshole archaeologist will come in a few thousand years later to dig you up and call you vain).

Joel

[viscousmemories]

Alternatively, the city had a burial ritual of the men throwing in their seals into the tombs when women were buried.I confess that was my first thought. :D

Alongside the earrings was a hand mirror, buried next to the corpse, possibly not the best choice of items to take into the afterlife with you (especially if you know some asshole archaeologist will come in a few thousand years later to dig you up and call you vain):biglaugh:

Fascinating read, Celsus.

And you're right, those dice are cool. I had no idea dice had been around so long, much less backgammon.

[livius drusus]

Have I ever mentioned that I love backgammon? Those dice are supercool. Add a few dots of ink inside the number pits and they could have been made yesterday. (Aside: they look a tad uneven; I wonder if they were loaded? That would rule).

What I'm wondering is how the archaeologists know that seals were buried with their owners 5000 years ago. Mansour Sajjadi seemed quite firm on the subject.

[Celsus]

Have I ever mentioned that I love backgammon? Those dice are supercool. Add a few dots of ink inside the number pits and they could have been made yesterday. (Aside: they look a tad uneven; I wonder if they were loaded? That would rule).
The dice look like they're made of marble, but even then, marble is not totally immune to the effects of pollution/acid rain, etc. so some wear must have occurred. It would only be a guess how well they fared originally. The die on the left has just the faintest traces of the ink that would have filled in those pits. It's amazing how little dice have changed in 5000 years.
What I'm wondering is how the archaeologists know that seals were buried with their owners 5000 years ago. Mansour Sajjadi seemed quite firm on the subject.
Do you mean like how they know the seals were part of a tomb? We actually know a lot about ancient burial practices in the Near East, because tombs are the one thing that we've found gazillions of. When something is buried in a lot, it is all found at a certain stratum in the soil. It's not like people who just die on the ground, and some bones end up several metres away that may or may not have belonged to the same person/group of people because of scavengers (peat bogs are another matter). For example, the "earrings" were discovered on either side of the skull, which means that they were probably still attached to the corpse when it was buried (and that they weren't nose rings, etc.). Similarly, the seals would have been found next to the corpses, well within the imagined boundaries of the tomb.

Of course, the relationship between tombs and urban settlement can be questioned. Part of the problem at Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found was that initial excavators identified the tombs found nearby with the settlement (and the settlement with the caves where the scrolls were found). Whole theories about the population of the Qumran settlement were put forward based on the hundreds of tombs found there. Unfortunately, nobody then noticed that all these tombs were pointing toward Mecca, and were Muslim Bedouin tombs at least 1000 years younger. You'd think people would learn to be more careful... As for the Burnt City example, I'm pretty sure they've ascertained the tombs to actually be part of the second or third strata of the city (meaning after the 1st or 2nd times the city was burnt, though I think they may have identified more strata), but I was just derailing my own thread.

Joel

[livius drusus]

The dice look like they're made of marble, but even then, marble is not totally immune to the effects of pollution/acid rain, etc. so some wear must have occurred. It would only be a guess how well they fared originally. The die on the left has just the faintest traces of the ink that would have filled in those pits. It's amazing how little dice have changed in 5000 years.

It really is. The only other ancient dice I recall seeing were Roman and they had engraved circles rather than pits. The design was just the same though.

Do you mean like how they know the seals were part of a tomb?

Actually, I meant how do we know the person buried was the owner of the seal. You and vm talking about the guys throwing in their seals in sign of devotion got me wondering. ;)

<snip very cool burial excavation segment> but I was just derailing my own thread.

Maybe, but it was totally worth it. Thank you. :thumbup:

[Petra]

In other discoveries at the Burnt City, the world's oldest backgammon set was discovered, along with these cool dice:

Very cool dice. :yup:


They also discovered the world's oldest animation, which they have managed to make a 20 sec animated film from.

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_5191.shtml

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/uploads/burnt_city_-_first_animation_of_the_world_found_in_burnt_city.jpg

Alongside the earrings was a hand mirror, buried next to the corpse, possibly not the best choice of items to take into the afterlife with you (especially if you know some asshole archaeologist will come in a few thousand years later to dig you up and call you vain).

Joel

You never know - in years to come, it may be revealed that the handmirror is actually the world's oldest vehicle rear vision mirror, and was a necessary item for burial as it helped the recently deceased soul to back out of the car park. :rolldead:

[Celsus]

Hello again,

Well it is pretty much conjectured hypothesised that a person going into the netherworld would need to bring certain things with them, these might be considered their own, or not (like the Greeks who put coins in the mouths of corpses for them to pay Charon to cross the river Styx). In the Greek version, we actually have texts that describe this practice that explains the practice, but we don't have an equivalent for the Burnt City example. One thing about Sumerian and Akkadian myth (though the Burnt City isn't either of these), however, is that there were a fair number of female deities in high positions (Ereshkigal, queen of the underworld, for instance). There's a whole debate about signifiers and signified in archaeology, but I won't go there...

And thanks for the other link luna, I completely forgot about that one... There's another link to a comb/ruler that they found there, except the archaeologists can't decide which it is. Can't find the pic for that one though.

Joel

[Ymir's blood]

In other discoveries at the Burnt City, the world's oldest backgammon set was discovered, along with these cool dice:
Were any d20s found?

[livius drusus]

I don't think they had hopeless geeks back then, Ymir's blood.

[Ymir's blood]

I don't think they had hopeless geeks back then, Ymir's blood.They obviously didn't have that high a level of civilization then.
:nazgul:

[viscousmemories]

There's another link to a comb/ruler that they found there, except the archaeologists can't decide which it is. Can't find the pic for that one though.
Here it is. Looks like they're calling it a ruler now.

Recent excavations in the archeological site of the Burnt City led to the discovery of a ruler with millimeter measurement units. Experts believe now that the ancient residents of the city used precise units for measurements and was skilled in areas of mathematics and geometry.

“During the recent excavations, we found a piece of ebony wood 10-centimeter long with some cuts which have evidently been made with a sharp tool. After carrying out the necessary tests and studying the wood under microscope, we found out that the cuts were divided in one millimeter and half millimeter measures,” head of the excavation team, Dr. Mansour Sajjadi, told CHN.

The piece of wood has therefore been identified as a ruler used in subtle industrial works of the city. Its measurement precision (one millimeter and half a millimeter) indicates that mathematics and geometry were developed at that time.

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/uploads/burnt_city_-_millimeter-precise_ruler_unearthed.jpg

[Celsus]

They obviously didn't have that high a level of civilization then.
:nazgul:
C'mon mate. These geeks paraded themselves proudly in their latest armour (or robes), fought for their gods, lands, and families with real swords and shields, embarked on epic quests, had their stories told by bards, and invoked fear and awe among the normal people. Not to mention toga parties. High civilisation at its finest. They didn't need no steenkin' d20s (though lack of magic missile probably explains their demise).

Joel

[LadyShea]

I can't believe those dice. That is seriously cool.

[Crumb]

we found out that the cuts were divided in one millimeter and half millimeter measures

They were only approximately a millimeter, right? :scratch: I was under the impression that the metric system was a more modern convention. :wink:

[godfry n. glad]

we found out that the cuts were divided in one millimeter and half millimeter measures

They were only approximately a millimeter, right? :scratch: I was under the impression that the metric system was a more modern convention. :wink:

Actually, they are one seqquatly and dual seqquatly measures. :wink:
It's just happenstance that they are so close to modern mm measures.

I'm curious as to how they determined that these were "measuring devices" rather than combs. Anybody know?

[Ymir's blood]

They obviously didn't have that high a level of civilization then.
:nazgul:
C'mon mate. These geeks paraded themselves proudly in their latest armour (or robes), fought for their gods, lands, and families with real swords and shields, embarked on epic quests, had their stories told by bards, and invoked fear and awe among the normal people. Not to mention toga parties.
But they had to go outside to have all that stuff. :P

[godfry n. glad]

Wait...

Balushistan? 'Zat where the Belushi brothers' family hails from?

I'm wondering...just offhand here...how that relates to the Harrappan and Indus civilzations.

Jes' steppin' out to google....

Okay, back now.

So, here's some quick questions:

How do the artifacts compare to those of the Harrappa-Mohenjodaro Indus Valley artifacts? Specifically to the artifacts of Sutkagen Dor? The period indicated is 2300-2000 BCE for the Indus efflorescense. I found mentioned a predecessor cultre referred to as Kot Digi, of the period 3300-2800 BCE, in the same general region, the south Indus and Indian ocean.

I'm interested in some good anthropological material on the development of technologies...tools. I'm intrigued with the Iron Age, Bronze Age, Neo-Lithic and their various movements from one level to the next, geographically.

Does anybody here have any good reading to recommend in this area? Celsus perhaps?

I've also read a very light once-over on the Orvitz, or Ovitz Man, found frozen in ice astride the Switzerland-Italy, or Italy-Austria, border. It was in Science News, so I read it and filed it away. I haven't heard much about it since. Evidently this wanderer, who probably died in an avalanche, had in his carry pouch evidence that pegged the working of metals, in this case, copper, back earlier than had been pegged at the time.

Does anybody know, off-hand, what's happening with the Ice Man?

[godfry n. glad]

Wait...

Balushistan? 'Zat where the Belushi brothers' family hails from?

I'm wondering...just offhand here...how that relates to the Harrappan and Indus civilzations.

Jes' steppin' out to google....

Okay, back now.

So, here's some quick questions:

How do the artifacts compare to those of the Harrappa-Mohenjodaro Indus Valley artifacts? Specifically to the artifacts of Sutkagen Dor? The period indicated is 2300-2000 BCE for the Indus efflorescense. I found mentioned a predecessor cultre referred to as Kot Digi, of the period 3300-2800 BCE, in the same general region, the south Indus and Indian ocean.

I'm interested in whether there has been any script, or written language traces, were found. The stylized horned animal of the seal shown is intriguing, to say the least. I'm also wondering why the presence of the seal in the grave indicates social status? Why is that? Couldn't a beloved spouse give up something of importance to them by placing it in the grave with their beloved? Perhaps the "seal" was an indicator of something entirely apart from social status?

godfry

[Celsus]

Sorry man, Harrappan stuff is fascinating, but it may as well be Icelandic archaeology. I haven't got a clue about good readings on the Indus Valley. I've no idea where Sajjadi is publishing his stuff, so I can't help on the epigraphic evidence. Chances are, if they've found anything, they haven't cracked the language.

On the iceman (Ötzi/Oetzi), I believe they worked out that he came from around Tyrol in Italy. I also read in Science that he had an arrowhead lodged in his shoulder, and the blood of 4 different people on various things he was carrying, indicating he'd been involved in some heavy fighting just before he died. I could abstract stuff from Science if you told me what you're looking for. I probably wouldn't want to meet him in a dark Alpine valley in winter.

Joel

[godfry n. glad]

Sorry, Joel...

After I posted that with the off-topic aside, I decided it'd probably be better as a new post. Thanks for the input, though.

I'll repost your comment there...okay?

godfry

[Celsus]

No problems at all. Incidentally, I may be away for a few days.

Joel

[Celsus]

Latest on the Burnt City (http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=4/5/2005&Cat=10&Num=2). It seems the prominent position of women there is getting additional circumstancial support, particularly in the population and infant mortality statistics.

Joel

[godfry n. glad]

There's another link to a comb/ruler that they found there, except the archaeologists can't decide which it is. Can't find the pic for that one though.
Here it is. Looks like they're calling it a ruler now.

Recent excavations in the archeological site of the Burnt City led to the discovery of a ruler with millimeter measurement units. Experts believe now that the ancient residents of the city used precise units for measurements and was skilled in areas of mathematics and geometry.

“During the recent excavations, we found a piece of ebony wood 10-centimeter long with some cuts which have evidently been made with a sharp tool. After carrying out the necessary tests and studying the wood under microscope, we found out that the cuts were divided in one millimeter and half millimeter measures,” head of the excavation team, Dr. Mansour Sajjadi, told CHN.

The piece of wood has therefore been identified as a ruler used in subtle industrial works of the city. Its measurement precision (one millimeter and half a millimeter) indicates that mathematics and geometry were developed at that time.

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/uploads/burnt_city_-_millimeter-precise_ruler_unearthed.jpg

Um.... Couldn't this be a bit more prosaic than an esoteric measuring tool? How about hand combs (carders) for processing fiber for cloth? That's what they look like to me. My wife had several variant types of these for separating wool fibers in preparation for spinning into yarn.