Is Respect Earned?

[livius drusus]

I hear people say some variant of "respect is earned not given" all the time, but it's rarely accompanied with any kind of explanation or clarification. I'd like the explore the idea, if y'all don't mind, because it strikes me as a little rickety when you inspect it.

I imagine much of it hinges on how the speaker defines respect. I think I assign different levels of respect, so if we're talking about respecting an ability, for instance, or knowledge of fine wines or something like that, then yes, a person would have to display said ability or knowledge before I gave them respect for it.

If we're talking about approaching someone with courtesy no matter what the context, then there is no up front condition. My respect can be lost, mind you, but people don't have to "earn it" before they receive it.

To tell the truth, most of the times I've seen the phrase used, it's struck me as a bit of a justification for rudeness. "X hasn't proven himself not to be a <insert despised group/category/character flaw> so I will treat him diffidently/snappishly/like crap until I see proof."

So where does this aphorism come from, anyway? Do you believe it's true? Under what circumstances do you apply it? What does respect to mean to you? What is the difference in the way you approach someone before and after she's earned your respect? What happens if she loses the respect she once earned?

[beyelzu]

I think that all people deserve a modicum of respect until they prove otherwise.

but once someone has earned my respect on a personal level, they sort of become part of my karass, their words and actions have a much stronger impact on me and I am far less likely to think that something they say is pure dipshittery even if that something may seem outlandish.

[LadyShea]

Hmmm. I don't automatically respect people, I don't automatically disrespect them either. They are neutral until they sway me one way or the other.

[viscousmemories]

According to dictionary.com, the word has two different relevant meanings:

1. A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem.

and

2. Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

For me the first comes only when earned, and the second is freely given unless lost.

[wei yau]

According to dictionary.com, the word has two different relevant meanings:

1. A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem.

and

2. Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

For me the first comes only when earned, and the second is freely given unless lost.

I wholeheartedly agree with these definitions and your take on them.

However, I am often frustrated by how often people confuse "consideration" and "appreciation" with "acceptance" and "agreement".

[Dingfod]

I had a big long response written up, but the computer lost respect for me and sent off into the ether[net]. Oh, well.

[Goliath]

Hmmm. I don't automatically respect people, I don't automatically disrespect them either. They are neutral until they sway me one way or the other.

:yeahthat:

[livius drusus]

I think that all people deserve a modicum of respect until they prove otherwise.

I agree, with the stipulation that we're using vm's definition 2 for "respect" in this case.

but once someone has earned my respect on a personal level, they sort of become part of my karass, their words and actions have a much stronger impact on me and I am far less likely to think that something they say is pure dipshittery even if that something may seem outlandish.

Excellent point. I definitely do that too: extend a larger portion of benefit of the doubt to someone who's proven himself to me over and over. What's a karass, btw? I get what it means from context, but where does it come from?

[livius drusus]

Hmmm. I don't automatically respect people, I don't automatically disrespect them either. They are neutral until they sway me one way or the other.

You're using vm's definition 1 here, right? How about the second one?

[LadyShea]

Hmmm. I don't automatically respect people, I don't automatically disrespect them either. They are neutral until they sway me one way or the other.

You're using vm's definition 1 here, right? How about the second one?

Hmm, I don't know. "Consideration" in what way "Appreciation" in what way? How can I appreciate someone if I don't know anything about them yet? Consideration, again, what exactly does that mean.

Am I polite to strangers? Yes. Is that resprect?

[godfry n. glad]

What's a karass, btw? I get what it means from context, but where does it come from?

Kurt Vonnegut. Cat's Cradle. One of the tenets of Bokononism.

See here. (http://home.wlu.edu/~blackmerh/bloggery/karass.html)

[livius drusus]

Am I polite to strangers? Yes. Is that resprect?

I think that's a large part of it, yes. A respectful approach is a courteous one, but to me it also requires assuming the best intentions and reading what a person says in the best possible manner. If someone says something I find ambiguous, assume the best interpretation and ask for clarification. Thank kind of thing.

[godfry n. glad]

I think of it as courtesy being given and respect being earned.

[livius drusus]

Why?

[godfry n. glad]

Probably because I think of respect as having the quality of understanding, whereas courtesy is presumed and conditional and is put on in the place of respect when there is no understanding.

[livius drusus]

However, I am often frustrated by how often people confuse "consideration" and "appreciation" with "acceptance" and "agreement".

I can understand that, but again, I see more people expressing that frustration than people confusing consideration with acceptance. It's probably the circles I hang out in. ;)

In said circles I find people far less likely to show people consideration (i.e., reading the best possible interpretation of a post) if they disagree with them and that comes across as disrespectful to me.

[viscousmemories]

Hmm, I don't know. "Consideration" in what way "Appreciation" in what way? How can I appreciate someone if I don't know anything about them yet? Consideration, again, what exactly does that mean.
The definition was willingness to show consideration and appreciation. In my opinion that doesn't mean showing consideration and appreciation for everyone all the time even if you don't know anything about them, but being willing to do so. Giving the benefit of the doubt, as liv said.

Also I'm pretty liv's talking about how you interact with people, not necessarily what you think of them. In which case I don't think it's possible to be neutral. When you interact with someone it seems like you either treat them respectfully or disrespectfully. I don't know how you can interact with someone neutrally.

[LadyShea]

When you interact with someone it seems like you either treat them respectfully or disrespectfully. I don't know how you can interact with someone neutrally.

vm, in your above statement you're basically defining respectful as polite or courteous, no? I guess I just don't use the second definition of respect, I use other words in those instances.

I mean, just because I choose not to yell or curse at strangers doesn't mean I have respect for them.

[viscousmemories]

When you interact with someone it seems like you either treat them respectfully or disrespectfully. I don't know how you can interact with someone neutrally.

vm, in your above statement you're basically defining respectful as polite or courteous, no? I guess I just don't use the second definition of respect, I use other words in those instances.

I mean, just because I choose not to yell or curse at strangers doesn't mean I have respect for them.
I don't think you have to have respect for someone to treat them respectfully. :)

[LadyShea]

I don't think you have to have respect for someone to treat them respectfully. :)

I am having a hard time understanding what, exactly, respectfully means when you say this. Is it, in fact, synonymous with polite or courteous or am I reading you wrong?

[livius drusus]

Probably because I think of respect as having the quality of understanding, whereas courtesy is presumed and conditional and is put on in the place of respect when there is no understanding.

I'm not sure I exactly grok (see? I can do it too. ;)) your meaning but I find the notion intriguing. In what way does respect have the quality of understanding? Do you mean understanding in the send of comprehension or empathy? Please expand, if you are so inclined.

[godfry n. glad]

Probably because I think of respect as having the quality of understanding, whereas courtesy is presumed and conditional and is put on in the place of respect when there is no understanding.

I'm not sure I exactly grok (see? I can do it too. ;)) your meaning but I find the notion intriguing. In what way does respect have the quality of understanding? Do you mean understanding in the send of comprehension or empathy? Please expand, if you are so inclined.

Comprehension. To respect someone seems to imply to me that one has an understanding, or comprehension, of their intentions, objectives and mode of operation. Whereas courtesy is extended to the unknown actor and is tenative based upon how that courtesy is accepted and returned or not.

[livius drusus]

Could intent, objective and mode of operation be assumed congenial for the sake of discourse and therefore respect extended before understanding enters the picture?

[godfry n. glad]

Could intent, objective and mode of operation be assumed congenial for the sake of discourse and therefore respect extended before understanding enters the picture?

Then it'd be courtesy, not respect.

[viscousmemories]

I don't think you have to have respect for someone to treat them respectfully. :)

I am having a hard time understanding what, exactly, respectfully means when you say this. Is it, in fact, synonymous with polite or courteous or am I reading you wrong?
Yes, I suppose you could say that the way I used respectful in this case is synonymous with polite and courteous. But I prefer respectful because polite and courteous sound phony and pretentious to me. I associate them with people who are pretending to be nicer than they are, or Miss Manners obsessed people who recoil at the use of "vulgar" language. In my opinion being respectful is more about showing consideration for people than worrying about being proper.

Although I admittedly haven't really thought about this a lot...

[LadyShea]

Yes, I suppose you could say that the way I used respectful in this case is synonymous with polite and courteous. But I prefer respectful because polite and courteous sound phony and pretentious to me. I associate them with people who are pretending to be nicer than they are, or Miss Manners obsessed people who recoil at the use of "vulgar" language. In my opinion being respectful is more about showing consideration for people than worrying about being proper.

Although I admittedly haven't really thought about this a lot...

Now you need to define consideration. Polite and courteous do not mean ONLY proper Miss Manners type bullshitting.

And, in my opinion, courtesy is extended to strangers and acquaintances until I know enough about them to respect them.


Edited to add:

Considerate: Having or marked by regard for the needs or feelings of others.

Courteous: Characterized by gracious consideration toward others.

Looks like we are saying the same thing :)

[viscousmemories]

Looks like we are saying the same thing :)
I figured we probably were. I think the only confusion stems from the fact that I believe you can only be respectful or disrespectful when interacting with someone, and you seem to be claiming that you are arespectful until you get to know something about them, which doesn't make any sense to me. I just don't know how you can talk to someone arespectfully or what that even means.

[wei yau]

A respectful approach is a courteous one, but to me it also requires assuming the best intentions and reading what a person says in the best possible manner. If someone says something I find ambiguous, assume the best interpretation and ask for clarification.

I think we're all getting a little wrapped around the pole on "respect" and "courteous" distinctions. Clearly, these words are pretty loaded with meaning for different people.

If I were to reduce in terms that are probably easily understood, I would say "be nice".

As a general rule, I try to be nice to anyone I meet. I don't always succeed at assuming the best intentions, but even then I try to hide my suspicions during my interactions.

This topic seems somewhat related to a rather lengthy thread (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=958&page=1&pp=25&highlight=dislike&onlybyuserid=0) I took part in when I first got to this board.

So, if we remove the idea of "respect" from this topic, are we simply discussing whether or not it is beneficial to be nice to someone. I'd like to think the answer if fairly clear.

In short, "Don't be a jerk" (now where have I seen that rule before... :chin: )

[LadyShea]

Looks like we are saying the same thing :)
I figured we probably were. I think the only confusion stems from the fact that I believe you can only be respectful or disrespectful when interacting with someone, and you seem to be claiming that you are arespectful until you get to know something about them, which doesn't make any sense to me. I just don't know how you can talk to someone arespectfully or what that even means.

As I stated, I, personally don't use "respect" according to the second definition. Respect is something I have (or don't have) for another person, not a way I interact.

[Sonnet]

One should always offer respect and acknowledge the dignity of others. However, within the context of earning or demanding, one EARNS respect and DEMANDS deference. It's just that if someone is demanding it without earning it, they might very well be unaware of that distinction.

[livius drusus]

I think we're all getting a little wrapped around the pole on "respect" and "courteous" distinctions. Clearly, these words are pretty loaded with meaning for different people.

If I were to reduce in terms that are probably easily understood, I would say "be nice".

I think you're right on that we seem to be getting hung up on respect vs. courtesy, but I don't think reducing them both to "be nice" is the solution. ;)

Just to try and restructure the concepts into something meatier, how about we consider the notion of respecting personal boundaries? That's a big thing with me (just in case that wasn't painfully obvious) and it's most definitely something I extend to everyone.

I don't think politeness or niceness is the reason why it's important to tread carefully around people's personal lives, to not apply my opinions, assumptions, judgements onto their circumstances. I do it because privacy matters to me both in principle and in practical, human terms, because to do otherwise would be for me a violation of both the principle and the actual human being.

So, how about it? Is that kind of respect something that must be earned, another form of politeness, something else entirely?

[LadyShea]

I don't think politeness or niceness is the reason why it's important to tread carefully around people's personal lives, to not apply my opinions, assumptions, judgements onto their circumstances. I do it because privacy matters to me both in principle and in practical, human terms, because to do otherwise would be for me a violation of both the principle and the actual human being.

So, how about it? Is that kind of respect something that must be earned, another form of politeness, something else entirely?


Okay, now this is just me, but I think that is a courtesy you extend in a sort of Golden Rule way. The people you are offering this courtesy too, based on your own ideals, may have completely different notions and your courtesy may seem disrespectful to them. Or not.

Okay, lemmee make an illustration thingie. Frankie's family is very big on thank you notes. They feel it is respectful. In my family, formal written thank yous are considered cold and un-kin-like. Now, if they knew and understood my feelings, they wouldn't bombard me with thank you notes, they would respect my view on the topic because they respect me and my opinions. As it is, no harm done, and they are offering a courtesy based on their own ideals. Did I just make it all murkier?

I think it makes it easier to have this discussion if we use separate terms, basically change definition number 2. to "Courtesy" and only refer to number 1. as respect.

Easier for me anyhoo, but I'm not too smart.

[latinijral]

So where does this aphorism come from, anyway?
It comes from a piss off/paranoid/double standard person.


Do you believe it's true?
I am sure it is not.


Under what circumstances do you apply it?
Not at all.


What does respect to mean to you?
A word used by defensive persons when they “think” their “space” was violated.


What is the difference in the way you approach someone before and after she's earned your respect?
She?
People should not be worried to earn nobody’s respect.
People should be worried to be as natural as possible ….all the time.


What happens if she loses the respect she once earned?
She again?
There is always a chance to “her” to think if “she” was mistaken in “her” previous assumption..