Ultimatum

[Ensign Steve]

<panicked, distraught ramble on>

I have to get rid of my dog or move. :sobbing:

I don't know what the fuck to do. I really love my dog, but moving? What a nightmare.

I feel like I have invested so much time/money/energy into this puppy that it would be a horrible shame to get rid of him. But to move would be throwing some seriously good time/money/energy after bad.

He's not a bad dog, he's just a little puppy. The manager of the apartment agrees that my neighbor is being unreasonable, but I guess her hands are tied.

On the one hand, it would almost be a relief. I could actually have a "life" and be able to "do things" after work and on the weekend and have a car that didn't smell like "urine."

But does one just give up on someone they love just like that? I wouldn't just give up on a human baby, and they are way nosier and more inconvenient. But just how far do I go for a dog?

I'm tempted to move and then hope against hope that somebody with two-year-old human twins moves in my place.

FUCK!!

<distraught, panicked ramble off>

Edited to add: Oh, and in case anyone did notice my recent absense, that is because I have been dedicating every spare minute of my life to attending to this dog. Playing with him outside so that he's not running on my own floor (god forbid), and winding him down so he'll fall right to sleep without barking and whining about it first. It's not for lack of effort on my part, I tell you what. FUCK!

[viscousmemories]

Damn, that's a tough choice. :(

I have to say, though, that you've had more than your share of stress in recent months. It seems to me that adding the stress of moving again would be a really bad idea.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Sonnet]

But does one just give up on someone they love just like that?
No.
But just how far do I go for a dog?
Animals are entirely committed to their humans; all too often the humans don't return the favor, and the animal has to live with the consequences without having a say in the outcome.
But to move would be throwing some seriously good time/money/energy after bad.
Moving sucks; so does losing your family.
On the one hand, it would almost be a relief. I could actually have a "life" and be able to "do things" after work and on the weekend and have a car that didn't smell like "urine."
You knew all about that stuff when you got a dog, right?

Good luck. I hope you find a way to stay together.

[Ensign Steve]

Thanks, I hope so too.

[LadyShea]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I would never go adopt an animal if I wasn't 100% committed to it for life. They're my family and I wouldn't give them up for being an inconvenience any more than I would give up a child. I would move.


*I have given away one animal, a ferret, but it was found by a neighbor and simply housed it for awhile. I never set out to get another ferret, and he was all alone when my older two died so I gave him to a ferret rescue for adoption.

And yeah, what livius said, what happened exactly?

[livius drusus]

Sheeit, JD. That's just awful. Could you back up a little? What brought this on? Your neighbor complained about the puppy?

(P.S. - Of course we noticed your absense. :hug: )

[Skep]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I would never go adopt an animal if I wasn't 100% committed to it for life. I would move.
Ditto. :puppy2:

[Ensign Steve]

Yah, my neighbor complained.

First he complained that the dog barked "constantly." This was during the first couple days, when he was adjusting to his new home. He complained to the apartment manager, not to me, so I was getting the info second-hand. I said that he was brand-new and he was getting adjusted, and could we please have a chance to settle in. They were like, "okay." After a couple days, the constant barking stopped. They didn't tell me which neighbor, to protect his privacy or whatever, so I assumed it was the guy above me, since he had also said something to me.

A month later, they said that there was another complaint. I was like, "he doesn't bark all the time anymore, so I honestly don't know where they're coming from." The manager suggested that the dog was "heavy-footed" and that was the noise that was bothering my neighbor. I was like "oh shit! because I didn't know it was the downstairs neighbor who had the problem. I had been tossing the ball around the floor and trying to wind the dog down so that he'd go to sleep without barking. By trying to fix what I thought was the problem, I was exaccerbating what was actually the problem. I swear, why don't people just communicate their needs directly? So I approached this guy directly and explained what was up, and asked him to bear with us. He was like, "okay."

Thus began Operation Silent Puppy. I take him everywhere I go besides work. He mostly just hangs out in the car, but at least he's not making noise at home. When we are home, we are outside, chasing around the tennis ball or working on our training or whatever. I am making him fat on chewy treats. I lie down with him at night until he falls asleep so he doesn't whine. He's allowed on the furniture, despite my original desire, because training him to jump off the couch on command is obviously out of the question (jumping off the furniture being obviously noisy). The only time he fusses at all is during the 15 or so minutes I am forced to ignore him while I shower and get ready for work. Guess what. There was a fucking cop at my door today, citing me for a noise ordinance because, guess what. My dog barks for 15 minutes in the morning.

I've gotten him down from "constantly" to 15 minutes a day, and that's not enough for this asshole. grr.

[Dingfod]

Just shoot it. It's just a dang dawg. You can always get another'n.[/redneck country hick]

If you give it away to someone that will take care of it, it will be as loyal to them as it was to you and to the dog. If there's a replacement for the human in it's life, it won't even miss you, especially at it's age.

I once sold a piano because of complaints from neighbors in an apartment complex. We didn't really have the room for it, and we needed the money anyway. I hate living in apartments.

[Sonnet]

I have to say, though, that you've had more than your share of stress in recent months. It seems to me that adding the stress of moving again would be a really bad idea.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I guess I just can't see how MY stress outweighs that of the creature with no rights that trusts in my commitment to it, who can't imagine that I would ever go away. If it's within my power - if it's possible for me to GET, by hook or by crook, the time/money/energy it takes to fulfill the implicit promise I made when adopting an infant (that's what getting a puppy is) - then that's what I do. The sun rises and sets on me as far as my pets are concerned; it seems only fair to merit their unwavering belief in me.

[LadyShea]

Can you look into renting a little house instead of an apartment so he has room to run around and the noise won't be such an issue?

[Sonnet]

Just another thing to think about: sometimes changes we're forced to make end up being really wonderful for us. Maybe there's a place just waiting for you, with a great downstairs neighbor instead of an asshole. Or, as Lady Shea said, perhaps there's a darling little house for you. If you get rid of your dog and stay, how happy will you be above that jerk? I'd rather live where I knew I wasn't going to have to deal with that person again.

If I DID stay, you can be damn sure I'd do everything within legal limits to ensure that Neighbor never got an instant of peace. I'd wear boots to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and take tap-dancing lessons and practice in the kitchen. You can bet he'd learn the meaning of 'heavy-footed'.

[viscousmemories]

I guess I just can't see how MY stress outweighs that of the creature with no rights that trusts in my commitment to it, who can't imagine that I would ever go away. If it's within my power - if it's possible for me to GET, by hook or by crook, the time/money/energy it takes to fulfill the implicit promise I made when adopting an infant (that's what getting a puppy is) - then that's what I do. The sun rises and sets on me as far as my pets are concerned; it seems only fair to merit their unwavering belief in me.
I understand what you're saying, but the circumstances in this case are pretty extreme. In the last year she joined the military, got married, and moved something like three times. In my opinion it was probably a mistake for her to adopt this puppy at all. I just doubt she was really in the right place for that kind of additional responsibility and emotional committment.

Now she's faced with having to complicate her life further to care for the puppy she adopted, or simplify it by giving the puppy up to someone else. Of course as I said that's a tough choice to have to make, but when faced with having to choose between taking care of yourself vs. someone else (be that a puppy, baby, boss, spouse, or whatever) it just seems to me that taking care of yourself is what you have to do.

[Ensign Steve]

If I DID stay, you can be damn sure I'd do everything within legal limits to ensure that Neighbor never got an instant of peace. I'd wear boots to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and take tap-dancing lessons and practice in the kitchen. You can bet he'd learn the meaning of 'heavy-footed'.

Haha, that's a good one, Sonnet. Maybe I should adopt those two-year-old twins, myself. They can't cite you for noisy human babies, can they?

[John Carter]

FWIW, I understand how tough this decision will be, no matter which way you go. How much time do you have to make up your mind? Do you have any leads at all on finding a good home for him?

I really don't think that having a dog is a good idea for you right now. I don't know how Air Force assignment rotations work, but what happens if you get orders for overseas? What would you do with him if you get a TDY or TAD assignment?

[Ensign Steve]

There's no chance of my being sent anywhere within at least a year. I still have to qualify on a whole bunch of stuff with my job. I'm too new to be useful overseas. Actually there's a chance I could go to Tampa Bay for training for six weeks, and I had every intention of taking him with me in that case.

With the exception of my neighbor, there is nothing about my job/lifestyle that causes problems with this puppy. I knew about the "no life" and the "urine" when I committed in the first place, and that is not my complaint (more of a look-on-the-bright-side at this point). I just really did not expect to have to move, having just finished unpacking from moving in here. If I'd had any idea that this was a possibility, then, no, of course I would not have committed to a pet. I'm not a complete idiot.

As for what I intended to do in a year, if I got sent somewhere... well, I didn't plan that far ahead. I am an idiot. Just not a complete one.

[justaman]

I don't understand how people could have a dog and then move into an apartment anyway, that's just crazy talk.

But what's done is done. There's ways around this. See I thought originally you were breaking the rules of the building or something. If it's one guy, the answer is simplicity itself: get the guy onside.

Don't call him an asshole or even think of him as one. Honestly, if I had some stranger's dog running all over my ceiling I'd be pissed too. BUT if it was a friend's, I wouldn't care.

I didn't realise you were married, that puts up a hurdle immediately. Because if you're unattached I'd say you go down there and ask him if he was sure there wasn't anything you could do...and after you ask this, undo the top button of your blouse.

Hey I'm just illustrating that there are definitely more options than ditch the doggie or move house.

At the very LEAST what you should be doing is flirting like a mofo. Get the cleavage happening. Judging by your avatar you scrub up alright. Go down there and even if he is the fattest most hideous 75 year old in the world, play him like an accordian. In fact the more homely this guy is, the better your chance of winning him over. All you need to do is have coffee with him, talk to him. Explain in the first instance how much your dog means to you. Try to cry when you do this. After that just start making chit-chat, make him talk about himself because the more you appear interested, the more he'll like you. Humans are stupid like that.

There is an entire industry devoted to pet psychology. Get fido booked into some kind of behavioural therapy and tell the sensitive neighbour what you're doing. You're making an effort, you see.

Keep going to see Mr Sensitive. It's much easier for him to complain to the landlord than it is to the smiling, pretty girl who keeps buying him chocolates and apologising from the bottom of her heart. If he doesn't melt from this onslaught of affection and effort on your behalf to do what he wishes then there's something wrong with him.

Anyhow, fight fire with water, it's way more effective. :) Above all be nice. It'll seriously hamper his efforts at screwing you over.

[Corona688]

I have to say, though, that you've had more than your share of stress in recent months. It seems to me that adding the stress of moving again would be a really bad idea.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I guess I just can't see how MY stress outweighs that of the creature with no rights that trusts in my commitment to it, who can't imagine that I would ever go away. If it's within my power - if it's possible for me to GET, by hook or by crook, the time/money/energy it takes to fulfill the implicit promise I made when adopting an infant (that's what getting a puppy is) Sonnet, I think you're exaggerating just a little bit.

This is an infant.
http://www.rtfcam.org/images/nicaragua/infant.jpg
This is a puppy.
http://web.umr.edu/~ercal/photos/puppy.gif

A dog can be perfectly happy and just as well-off living with another caretaker, unlike an infant. There may be good reasons for Ensign Steve to keep the dog, but I really don't think that kind of emotional blackmail helps anything.

[viscousmemories]

Hmm... I don't know if that quite illustrates your point effectively Corona; that puppy is definitely the cuter one. I think I'd probably choose to keep him over that baby. :D

[Sonnet]

Sonnet, I think you're exaggerating just a little bit.

Perhaps, according to your belief system. Not according to mine. And not according to the animal, who has no better memory of their origin than a human baby does and has imprinted on their 'owner'. Human or not, we all start out as infants.

We can beat the whole human/animal -what we feel/what they feel thing to death, but no point you can make about how they're not human and we are changes the fact that we betray them all the time and think nothing of it. It's just whether or not you believe we should be responsible for things like that.

I think WE use emotional blackmail on animals all the time, pretending to commit to them when we really don't take it nearly as seriously as they do.

Exaggerating? No. I live by that belief system.

[Corona688]

Sonnet, I think you're exaggerating just a little bit.Perhaps, according to your belief system. Not according to mine.That's the thing that makes it emotional blackmail, the "you're a monster for even thinking of not conforming to my morals" bit.And not according to the animal, who has no better memory of their origin than a human baby does and has imprinted on their 'owner'.I take it you've asked a fair number of dogs about this. Oh wait, dogs can't converse with you and never will.Human or not, we all start out as infants. Except that human infants will always grow up to be humans, with all the advantages, responsibilities, and problems therein; and dogs, no matter how you raise them, will always grow up to be dogs. Obviously you find great companionship and love in your dogs and vice versa, but they cannot be your children; and Ensign Steve's dog cannot be her child.We can beat the whole human/animal -what we feel/what they feel thing to death, but no point you can make about how they're not human and we are changes the fact that we betray them all the time and think nothing of it. It's just whether or not you believe we should be responsible for things like that. There's a false dillema here. You're acting like we're all telling her to get the dog euthanized. You appear to think either one loves their dog as a child and sticks with it forevermore through hell or high water until the bitter end, or forgoes all compassion and responsibility and dumps it off the highway or something. Simply untrue.

Maybye she can find an owner in a better position to take care of this dog. If she sees to it that her dog is cared for, lodged, fed, and loved, that is hardly abdicating responsibility!

The ideal solution of course would be to move, or resolve the conflict; but one cannot blindly abandon the worst-case(and most probable imho) scenario just because it is unpleasant. One hopes for the best but plans for the worst.Exaggerating? No. I live by that belief system. I know you do, and you're obviously not exxagerating about your own beliefs. The exaggeration is that your way is the only moral way to live.

This will be my last post in this thread. I refuse to let your attacks on Steve go without comment but I've made my point, and think I've derailed this enough.

[Bella]

A similar thing happened to me, Steve - I got my dog and a year and some months afterwards, my life changed and I had to find a 15 month long dog sitter while I went to school, because my apartment wouldn't allow dogs. Don't feel bad about this. You're not an irresponsible pet owner, in my eyes, because you didn't know this was going to happen when you got your little lovely.

Try finding a friend that would take care of your baby for a while, until you can find another living arrangement. Try going to your local pet store - a PetSmart, for example (Jek is a manager at a store here in the Twin Cities) virtually requires all managers to own a pet. Most have dogs. See if they can help you find a temporary home. Also, check with your humane society and see if they have a list of places that will allow you to have your dog.

Good luck. Hug your sweetie tight!

[LadyShea]

Obviously you find great companionship and love in your dogs and vice versa, but they cannot be your children; and Ensign Steve's dog cannot be her child.

I am infertile, my dogs are the only children I have ever had. Also, they are sentient, living beings with a strong pack mentality. We are their pack; they know where they stand in this pack as we have all worked out the hierarchy and that is crucial to their emotional well being. It's not as easy on them as you seem to think, they must enter a new pack and figure out their place in it.

A dog can be perfectly happy and just as well-off living with another caretaker, unlike an infant.

We plan to adopt next year. Are you saying our adopted child won't be perfectly happy and just as well off with us, since we will be "another caretaker"?


That being said, do I think Ensign finding another home for her dog is the worst thing ever? No. I am sure there is another person or family out there who will be great for the dog.

I simply want her to not get an animal based on acute lonlieness next time.

[godfry n. glad]

Um...

I personally think the dog would be happier if it needn't conform to the dictates required by apartment living. If it could live it's life being more spontaneous and frolicsome, then it would probably live a healthier, happier life.

Now, I don't converse with canines, but those who have their lives circumscribed to a small apartment, with limited contact with other living beings....well...I gotta think that's not optimal for the animal, particularly if it's a dog of any size (which, I'm presuming yours is of sufficient size, since it makes footsounds).

I personally think you and your dog would be better off if you could find a decent home for the pooch. One where there is enough room to move and enough stimulation to satisfy.

Then, get yourself a cat and teach it to spray one neighbor's stuff.

Get yourself a dog when you are capable of providing the dog a decent life and lots of love and attention.

godfry

[AspenMama]

Growing up, my family always had dogs. For most of my former marriage, I had a dog. But I must say, once I had children, my dog took second place. Nothing I had ever done prepared me for being a parent and the overwhelmingly strong feelings I had for my new babies. Having a puppy is not the same. I still liked my dog and took care of him until old age but he did become quite a burden and I had to put him down a couple of years ago.

He might have been able to hang on a while longer-- but I am a single mom.Typically, I wake up 4:30-5:00 am every morning to prepare my children for school and myself for work. When my dog's ailment kept him up during the night and kept me up, when it required me to constantly clean and when the vet bills began to stack up, I made the decision to put my 13 year old dog down. It was hard as hell, but my point here is, my children and my job had to take priority over nursing this dog until he died from natural causes.

Ensign Steve-- Whatever decision you make, I'm sure it will be a good one-- if you cannot work out something with the tennant below or your landlord to keep the dog, then you most likely can find him a good home. If you do decide to move, perhaps you can work out something with your landlord to help with the money situation-- as he/she seems to be somewhat apologetic for the situation. Is there anything in the lease for you to fall back on regarding pets and such?

[Jacey]

JD,

I'm sorry about your situation.........that sucks, he's such a cute rambunctious little puppy, even if he pees all over your stuff..........

:cheerup:

[Seven of Nine]

If I DID stay, you can be damn sure I'd do everything within legal limits to ensure that Neighbor never got an instant of peace. I'd wear boots to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and take tap-dancing lessons and practice in the kitchen. You can bet he'd learn the meaning of 'heavy-footed'.

Haha, that's a good one, Sonnet. Maybe I should adopt those two-year-old twins, myself. They can't cite you for noisy human babies, can they?

They can complain all they want about a crying baby, but no one will cite you and you landlord can't throw you out, either.
So, your neighbor is fucking you over because he can, and he can't do it with everyone. Heavy-footed, my ass.
I have moved twice rather than give up my dogs, but I have no one else, and they've never been puppies young enough so that they could be given away with any chance of happiness.
Oh, I could have had a yearly lease at the place I have now...IF I had only put one to sleep.
I have no magial solution for you, ensign, but I think that, if you have to give your puppy up, you should take Sonnet's advice. Surely you have a friend with children who would like to camp out watch TV and let the kids scream while you're at work???

[Ensign Steve]

I don't know why people are thinking my dog doesn't have contact with other people and dogs, or that he is cooped up in the apartment all the time, or that I am unable to give him love and attention. I thought I made it clear that I dedicate every spare second of my life to playing with him (usually outside) and training with him and taking him to socialize with other dogs. People see "apartment" and "dog" in the same sentence and red flags go off or something and they are unable to read any of the other words typed on the screen.

Anywho, he's gone now. And yes, it was easier for me to let go of him than it was for me to let go of my human infant. It still hurts though. A lot.

Now what to do about homeboy downstairs? I think it's time to dust off the ol' weight bench. Tennis shoes in the dryer? Industrial rug shampooer! (gotta get the pee out of the carpet, non?) Ideas people, I need ideas.

[Ensign Steve]

Oh I thought of another one. I could switch the alarm clock from the pretty piano CD to the annoying screeching alarm beep. Then I could hit the snooze for an hour every morning. Or I could "accidentally" set it to go off a few minutes after I leave for work.

Maybe I should start a thread. :twisted: :muahaha:

[LadyShea]

Anywho, he's gone now. And yes, it was easier for me to let go of him than it was for me to let go of my human infant. It still hurts though. A lot.

Where'd he go?

Now what to do about homeboy downstairs? I think it's time to dust off the ol' weight bench. Tennis shoes in the dryer? Industrial rug shampooer! (gotta get the pee out of the carpet, non?) Ideas people, I need ideas.

Boots and start walking like you're pissed off all the time so stomp around. Never close a door, slam it, start being really indecisive as to your furniture arrangment and change it frequently.

[viscousmemories]

It still hurts though. A lot.
I'm sorry, JD. :(

[Ensign Steve]

He went to a coworker of mine. His wife is home during the day and they were in the market for a dog already. They also have an apartment, but hopefully their neighbors are better.

Fortunately I already wear boots for work and I am really pissed off. I don't have to go out of my way to fake that one. Good idea about the doors. I have a heavy glass sliding door I have to go through to get to my laundry. When the pup was still here I left it open all the time for him. But now that he's gone why shouldn't I open it and close it every time I go to change a load? Muahahahah!

Also, now that the pup's gone, this place should definitely do with a redecorate. That is, of course, after I've moved all the furniture around to shampoo the carpet. Wow... who knew losing my dog would be such a noisy endeavour?

[sparklecat]

Babysitting loud, obnoxious kids definitely sounds like a good idea. Also, suddenly become *very* clumsy. Knock into things at three in the morning, bring shelves of books crashing down when you run into them. Develop a fear of insects, mice, birds, etc, and scream whenever you 'see' them. Claim a traumatic experience and have nightmares that wake you up screaming.

Of course, all your neighbors will hate you for most of this, so stomping around and dropping things over the guy's bedroom might be the best idea.

[Ensign Steve]

Clumsy! Good one, sparklecat. Maybe I'll go pick up a fifth of Jack. Then I can be clumsy and irate and beligerent all at the same time. Private intoxication is legal, right?

Oh! What a pretty avatar you have!

[Skep]

Sorry you had to give up puppy-dog, JD. :( But I'm glad you found him a nice home. :)

[godfry n. glad]

Hmm.... How about taking up clogging as a hobby? Invite friends over for wrestling matches? Take up Taiko drumming? I did like the idea of letting your friends with small children us your place while you're at work, particularly if that's swing or graveyard shifts.

Of course, you don't have to tell anybody it's wrestling or anything....just shyly smile, blush (if you can) and tell them your sweetie was over. Bat eyelashes.

As for apartments and dogs.... Did you allow your pooch to gambol and frolic while you were at work? How long is your average shift? How big is your apartment? How big is your dog? Has he been able to have the pack over on a regular basis?

[Gurdur]

Sorry you had to give up puppy-dog, JD. :( But I'm glad you found him a nice home. :)

Seconded. {{{{{{{{ hugz }}}}}}}}

[sparklecat]

Oh! What a pretty avatar you have!

Thanks :) I usually use some version of the kitty, and WinAce put the sparkles on for me.

And yeah, I'm sorry about your puppy. I just recently got a kitten, and don't think I could ever give him up. But if nothing else, you can at least make the neighbor's life hell.

[pescifish]

I don't know why people are thinking my dog doesn't have contact with other people and dogs, or that he is cooped up in the apartment all the time, or that I am unable to give him love and attention. I didn't! It sounded to me like your pup was well on his way to being in a great dog pack with you as leader. Just because people have a big yard doesn't mean a dog is going to get what he needs to be a dog.

Even if you have a dog that self-exercises, a lot of the types of self-exercising dogs do (such as frantically running a fence to bark at things on the other side or even just general playing) isn't "good" energy burn. They need the mind occupied in the sort of pack trotting dogs do in the wild, following their leader. Sounds to me like your runs with him and taking him with you was giving him what dogs really need.

However, it did seem a bit like an impulse decision driven by loneliness in a career that might involve some non-dog-capable changes in the next several years. If you do get to a spot where you are thinking of a pet again, you might consider one that needs less of a pack (such as a more indepedent cat) or if you absolutely need a dog, adopt an older one. I suspect that if your pup had been 3-4+ years old and you did the sort of runs with him you have been doing, he would have stepped right into your life with less frustration. You had at least 2 years to go to get out of puppy issues with lil' Caesar.

Still, I'm sure he had a great time with you and I bet he'll do well with the new folks! It really sucks that you had to deal with this, Ensign Steve -- your neighbor is a bit of a dipwad for not understanding what it means to live in a downstairs apartment. It sure as hell doesn't take a pet to make things noisy.

[viscousmemories]

It sounded to me like your pup was well on his way to being in a great dog pack with you as leader.
Wait, are you calling her a bitch?

[pescifish]

I didn't say she was becoming his mommy! :girltong:

And, hey, I thought the word "bitch" would connote the "not top dog" position. Or am I misunderstanding that phrase commonly heard in prison scenes on tv "I'll make you my pretty little bitch!"? :kitten:

[Ensign Steve]

However, it did seem a bit like an impulse decision driven by loneliness in a career that might involve some non-dog-capable changes in the next several years.

I just found out today (granted I didn't know this when I adopted the pup) that there's no way I'm going anywhere. I just had my new boss inform me that I am in Augusta to stay for at least the remainder of this tour (which means at least three more years). Yes some AF jobs move people around a lot, but mine does not. Good thing, since I hate moving! I moved three times last year because of training, but now I am at my "permanent duty station" and it is pretty damn permanent. YAY for me and not having to move. That said, I still believe there is nothing in my situation that makes me ill-equipped for puppy ownership, other than the neighbor.

[pescifish]

I moved three times last year because of training, but now I am at my "permanent duty station" and it is pretty damn permanent. YAY for me and not having to move. That said, I still believe there is nothing in my situation that makes me ill-equipped for puppy ownership, other than the neighbor. That's great news! Then, yup, I'm right behind ya, puppy and all. I think any puppy would be lucky to have your attention and commitment shown in your time with Caesar. Such a pup would grow to be a fine, well adjusted dog, IMO.

(I still like to suggest people to consider adopting older dogs -- they really do make great pets! In fact, I'm on the board of directors for a doberman pinscher rescue, if you know anyone in SoCal who wants one of those fine beautiful dogs!)

[Ensign Steve]

Oh, I am inclined to agree... now. Punky was 10 months old, and Caesar was 2 months, and I couldn't believe the difference. The next dog I get (100 years down the line when I own my own farm and I am independently wealthy and no longer have to work) will be an adult, that's for damn sure!

I love dobies. You think you'll still be on the board in another 3 to 8 years?

[viscousmemories]

That said, I still believe there is nothing in my situation that makes me ill-equipped for puppy ownership, other than the neighbor.
Well just in case you interpreted anything I said as an implication that you weren't equipped to be a good puppymaster, that wasn't my intent. From the sounds of it you did a wonderful job of taking care of the puppy -- I just questioned whether it was a good idea for you to take on that additional responsibility at this point in your life, and also the wisdom in making things even more stressful by moving again.

Anyway I'm sorry you've lost your puppy but I'm glad you won't have to move.

[Ensign Steve]

Thanks, vm. And thanks everyone. Whether we agreed on the finer points at all, I really just appreciated y'all's just listening and helping me out last night. I was in quite a state. I was having a bit of a breakdown! LOL But I'm feeling much better. And I appreciate everyone's input and opinions. It's why I asked.

[John Carter]

However, it did seem a bit like an impulse decision driven by loneliness in a career that might involve some non-dog-capable changes in the next several years.

I just found out today (granted I didn't know this when I adopted the pup) that there's no way I'm going anywhere. I just had my new boss inform me that I am in Augusta to stay for at least the remainder of this tour (which means at least three more years). Yes some AF jobs move people around a lot, but mine does not. Good thing, since I hate moving! I moved three times last year because of training, but now I am at my "permanent duty station" and it is pretty damn permanent. YAY for me and not having to move. That said, I still believe there is nothing in my situation that makes me ill-equipped for puppy ownership, other than the neighbor.


This was my only serious concern about you having a dog, Ensign Steve. If, at the end of this tour you decide to reup would you get transferred to a new duty station? Possibly overseas? Or is the possibilty of reenlistment out of the question?

Anyway, it's none of my business anyway, so I apologize if I upset you by commenting. I'm sorry it had to come to this, and I'm glad to hear that you were able to find a good home for Ceasar. Good Luck!

[Ensign Steve]

Do most people, military or otherwise, have that amount of predictability in their lives that they can say with certainty where they'll be in three years? or five or ten? Hehe! Seriously, I'm not upset. I mean, I'm bummed about my dog, but I'm not upset about what anyone has said. I just wanted to make sure that I was clear about where I was coming from. I don't expect total agreement. Or total disagreement for that matter.

[Sonnet]

your attacks on Steve

Well; SOMEBODY'S exaggerating, that's for sure.

I'm sorry you had to give up your dog, ES. I don't think you're a monster for doing that. I just feel strongly that someone has to speak up; you were thoughtful about this, but not everyone is, and it's the animals that suffer.

[Jacey]

I'm sorry you had to give him up JD...............waaah..........

Maybe you can get that cat we were talking about? They take care of themselves, don't pee on stuff and are nice enough to let you live in their apartment.

And may I suggest PT at home beginning with jumping jacks?

[pescifish]

I love dobies. You think you'll still be on the board in another 3 to 8 years?Heck if I know. I only ended up on the BOD because my coworker/friend needed someone to sign the papers and I was sitting right here. But, yeah, probably: we have become close friends and I love her swarming sea of happy dogs. Her rescue is for older and sick dogs (she has 22 right now and they all can sleep on soft beds in her house) as an affiliate to the larger general dobie rescue (http://www.dobierescue.org/) in Fillmore (they have about 70 dobies).

I got my 2 yr old greyhound mix from the Fillmore rescue. The folks who turned her in thought she was a dobie mix.

Speaking of commitments, I doubt most people can predict a full 15 years to promise that they won't move or make changes in their living arrangements before they take on a cat or dog. In fact, I have a pet that hopefully will outlive me by a full 30 years, so there's a case where full responsibility has to involve planning for new home contingencies.

Oh and the other thing I meant to say: if anyone can make spot on excellent impulse life decisions, I think it's you, Ensign Steve. You have a solid track record for pretty good ones. I've done that in the past myself: all my biggest life decisions were seemingly instant and impulsive and not a one was a regret, in spite of friends and family saying "WTF?!"

[pescifish]

your attacks on Steve

Well; SOMEBODY'S exaggerating, that's for sure.Um... Sonnet, in case it matters to you how you might come across, I think you did come on pretty strong and defensive when challenged. Not that it matters what I think, but you seem to make a big deal out of all of these slight disagreements and your words towards others have the appearance, to me, of being snide and petty while your beliefs are paramount.

That's just me, though, so if you don't care, then you can ignore this, please.

[viscousmemories]

Um... Sonnet, in case it matters to you how you might come across, I think you did come on pretty strong and defensive when challenged. Not that it matters what I think, but you seem to make a big deal out of all of these slight disagreements and your words towards others have the appearance, to me, of being snide and petty while your beliefs are paramount.
Huh, that wasn't my impression at all. I can see saying she came on strong and maybe a bit self-righteous, but I didn't perceive her as being particularly defensive, snide or petty. In fact LadyShea expressed the exact same "pet ownership is a lifelong committment" idea shortly after Sonnet did and nobody argued with her.

But speaking of coming on a bit strong, Corona obviously had a big problem with Sonnet comparing puppies to infants (as illustrated by the graphic presentation) and when she elaborated he said he didn't plan to let her get away with "attacking" ES. Huh? If she attacked ES then was LadyShea's comment an attack too? They said almost exactly the same thing.

Sonnet's obviously passionate about animal rights and doesn't think people in general give them as much consideration as they deserve. Nevertheless she did say in her last post that she didn't think ES was a monster and that she seemed to have approached this situation thoughtfully. That doesn't seem snide to me.

[LadyShea]

I, like Sonnet, am passionate about this topic. I discussed my position privately with Ensign Steve via IM as well as posted my thoughts here.

For the record, I understand that we can't always predict circumstances and that certain situations may arise where we cannot keep our pets. However, I think one should have the goal of being prepared to make accomodations and accept that inconveniences will arise, and have some idea of how we could deal with them. For example, most people don't into marriage thinking they will get divorced if they are invonvienced, and I think no one should take responsibility for a living being without at least considering it will be a decade or more long committment. Basically, I don't want people going down to adopt a pet with the mindset of "Hey, if it doesn't work out I'll just get rid of it".

I do not personally believe Ensign Steve was careless or callous or thoughtless when she got the puppy, and I know she is heartbroken. I just wanted to get my point across for her future forays into having furkids and to put the thought into others' heads.

[pescifish]

Huh, that wasn't my impression at all. I can see saying she came on strong and maybe a bit self-righteous, but I didn't perceive her as being particularly defensive, snide or petty. Okey-doke.

[Sonnet]

I've found over the years that if you're too definite about you're point of view, if you state it too clearly or strongly someone feels attacked, and the more definite you are about how you've stated your beliefs, the more the person who doesn't agree with you feels like you're opinionated and unreasonable. If they don't have a valid, well-constructed counterpoint, suddenly you're shoving your beliefs down their throat. That's really not the way it is.

I'm disgusted with the way this society treats and perceives animals. So, I speak up. When I do, inevitably someone who has minimized my beliefs feels attacked when I remain firm. What's the difference between stating my point of view, and having it dismissed by a patronizing 'I think you're exaggerating', followed by pictures of a baby and a dog, as if I can't tell the difference? One of us made a point, and one of us took a shot.

I just take responsibility for what I say and don't make pronouncements followed by 'THISISWHATITHINKABOUTYOUOHANDI'MNOTCOMINGBACKTOTHISTHREADSODON'TBOTHERTOREPLYBECAUSEIWON'TREADITYOUMEANIEATTACKER.'

When you can follow up on your assertions, I'll go ahead and respect your viewpoint.

I have to say, for a place geared toward 'Freethinkers', I've noticed in a couple quite a delicate sensibility and pronounced sense of injury - not to mention the inability to weather relatively mild disagreements well or gracefully.

[Ensign Steve]

However, I think one should have the goal of being prepared to make accomodations and accept that inconveniences will arise, and have some idea of how we could deal with them.

I agree. (I agree with your whole post, but the quoted portion is the part I want to address.) I just want to make it clear that I was prepared for all kinds of inconveniences. I mentioned in another thread a bit back about how "cleaning up dog shit helps me keep my mind of the bullshit" or something to that affect. I was referring to the fact that pet care was about the only non-stressor in my life at the time. But moving (for the fourth time in a year) is more than a little inconvenient. I specifically waited until I was at my permanent station before I adopted the puppy. It wasn't on impulse. I was still in Texas when I decided that I would adopt a pet once I got settled down.

[pescifish]

I've found over the years that if you're too definite about you're point of view, if you state it too clearly or strongly someone feels attacked, and the more definite you are about how you've stated your beliefs, the more the person who doesn't agree with you feels like you're opinionated and unreasonable. If they don't have a valid, well-constructed counterpoint, suddenly you're shoving your beliefs down their throat. That's really not the way it is.

I'm disgusted with the way this society treats and perceives animals. So, I speak up. When I do, inevitably someone who has minimized my beliefs feels attacked when I remain firm. What's the difference between stating my point of view, and having it dismissed by a patronizing 'I think you're exaggerating', followed by pictures of a baby and a dog, as if I can't tell the difference? One of us made a point, and one of us took a shot.

I just take responsibility for what I say and don't make pronouncements followed by 'THISISWHATITHINKABOUTYOUOHANDI'MNOTCOMINGBACKTOTHISTHREADSODON'TBOTHERTOREPLYBECAUSEIWON'TREADITYOUMEANIEATTACKER.'

When you can follow up on your assertions, I'll go ahead and respect your viewpoint.

I have to say, for a place geared toward 'Freethinkers', I've noticed in a couple quite a delicate sensibility and pronounced sense of injury - not to mention the inability to weather relatively mild disagreements well or gracefully.Sonnet, you are my fucking bulletin board idol. :bow: :queen:

If those who know me are paying any kind of attention, they should be able to attest to the fact that I quite honestly, sincerely, from-the-bottom-of-my-pile-of-goo-heart wish that I could be more like you when it comes to bulletin board stuff. I am quite hopelessly incompetent, to great detriment. I do wish I had your skills and temperament.

[LadyShea]

I agree. (I agree with your whole post, but the quoted portion is the part I want to address.) I just want to make it clear that I was prepared for all kinds of inconveniences. I mentioned in another thread a bit back about how "cleaning up dog shit helps me keep my mind of the bullshit" or something to that affect. I was referring to the fact that pet care was about the only non-stressor in my life at the time. But moving (for the fourth time in a year) is more than a little inconvenient. I specifically waited until I was at my permanent station before I adopted the puppy. It wasn't on impulse. I was still in Texas when I decided that I would adopt a pet once I got settled down.

Oh I know, but in the OP you discussed the relief of being able to go do other things. I think any negative responses in this thread were in response to that, not to the neighbor issues.

Also, I was somewhat addressing my posts to other readers as well.

[JoeP]

I just take responsibility for what I say and don't make pronouncements followed by 'THISISWHATITHINKABOUTYOUOHANDI'MNOTCOMINGBACKTOTHISTHREADSODON'TBOTHERTOREPLYBECAUSEIWON'TREADITYOUMEANIEATTACKER.'

When you can follow up on your assertions, I'll go ahead and respect your viewpoint.

Well said!

[AspenMama]

Ensign Steve-- I'm glad you found a good home for your puppy and I'm sorry you couldn't keep him.

I'm disgusted with the way this society treats and perceives animals.
Yes certain individuals mistreat animals. But also there are many many people who do not mistreat animals-- but rather place animals in very high regard. Buying things for one's pet is a huge business right now. That would seem to indicate that not all of society mistreats their animals.

From another post you wrote:
'I think you're exaggerating', followed by pictures of a baby and a dog, as if I can't tell the difference?
Well didn't you state in subsequent posts that it makes no difference to you? It is my opinion, and my experience that my human babies will always take precedence over any pets; and that pets are simply not in the same category.

Now I agree with some of your post until you write this:
I have to say, for a place geared toward 'Freethinkers', I've noticed in a couple quite a delicate sensibility and pronounced sense of injury - not to mention the inability to weather relatively mild disagreements well or gracefully.

Why would being a freethinker board have any patent on hardened human sensibilities? Here, I think that you are offering a couple of digs not only at specific posters but are doing exactly what you've decried in Corona's responses to you.

[Sonnet]

I'm disgusted with the way this society treats and perceives animals.
Yes certain individuals mistreat animals. But also there are many many people who do not mistreat animals-- but rather place animals in very high regard. Buying things for one's pet is a huge business right now. That would seem to indicate that not all of society mistreats their animals.I was also thinking of the daily life of commercially produced meat animals. I believe there's a problem, that helpless things are miserable, and that I'm doing something wrong by ignoring an opportunity to say something about it. That's what feeling morally obligated means to me.From another post you wrote:
'I think you're exaggerating', followed by pictures of a baby and a dog, as if I can't tell the difference?
Well didn't you state in subsequent posts that it makes no difference to you?
Yes. My issue was with his presentation, specifically in light of his attitude toward mine. Glass houses and stones and all that.
It is my opinion, and my experience that my human babies will always take precedence over any pets; and that pets are simply not in the same category.Fair enough. I disagree, and live by my principles as you do yours, which is the only thing any of us can do - except offer opposing perspectives from time to time and hope that they might make an impact.Now I agree with some of your post until you write this:I have to say, for a place geared toward 'Freethinkers', I've noticed in a couple quite a delicate sensibility and pronounced sense of injury - not to mention the inability to weather relatively mild disagreements well or gracefully.Why would being a freethinker board have any patent on hardened human sensibilities? Here, I think that you are offering a couple of digs not only at specific posters but are doing exactly what you've decried in Corona's responses to you.
You don't have to have hardened human sensibilities to be a freethinker - but I thought it meant openness to new ideas, thoughtfully and politely (not necessarily gently or delicately) offered - and perhaps I thought too much of the title, because to me it seems to bespeak intelligence and the desire for stimulating discussion. What I've found instead is, in certain individuals (who are more than willing to point out what they've found distasteful in my style, please remember), pronounced sensitivity, which doesn't fit my preconception of 'freethinker'. These aren't digs; they're responses.

[AspenMama]

I'm disgusted with the way this society treats and perceives animals.
Yes certain individuals mistreat animals. But also there are many many people who do not mistreat animals-- but rather place animals in very high regard. Buying things for one's pet is a huge business right now. That would seem to indicate that not all of society mistreats their animals.I was also thinking of the daily life of commercially produced meat animals. I believe there's a problem, that helpless things are miserable, and that I'm doing something wrong by ignoring an opportunity to say something about it. That's what feeling morally obligated means to me.
Ah and perhaps this is where I take issue with you. Ensign Steve's animal was not miserable, nor was it likely in danger of being miserable, however your posts seemed to imply such. The whole other topic of commercially produced meats is, a whole other topic than pets.


From another post you wrote:
[QUOTE=Sonnet]'I think you're exaggerating', followed by pictures of a baby and a dog, as if I can't tell the difference?
Well didn't you state in subsequent posts that it makes no difference to you?
Yes. My issue was with his presentation, specifically in light of his attitude toward mine. Glass houses and stones and all that.
Hmm-- Yes-- and you may want to consider how you communicate as well.

It is my opinion, and my experience that my human babies will always take precedence over any pets; and that pets are simply not in the same category.Fair enough. I disagree, and live by my principles as you do yours, which is the only thing any of us can do - except offer opposing perspectives from time to time and hope that they might make an impact.
Are you a parent? Can you seriously say that you would not place your child's basic needs, or any child's needs above that of a pet? Say you were in a canoe and could only save either your child or your puppy from drowning-- would you not place precedence on the child?

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Georgia]You don't have to have hardened human sensibilities to be a freethinker - but I thought it meant openness to new ideas, thoughtfully and politely (not necessarily gently or delicately) offered - and perhaps I thought too much of the title, because to me it seems to bespeak intelligence and the desire for stimulating discussion. What I've found instead is, in certain individuals (who are more than willing to point out what they've found distasteful in my style, please remember), pronounced sensitivity, which doesn't fit my preconception of 'freethinker'. These aren't digs; they're responses.
Again, it is my opinion that you are mistakenly disparaging folks here who do not agree with you and the term freethinker in the process. I wouldn't say your ideas are new and neither do I feel they were given with the utmost in politeness. Your responses here seemingly to me, do not differ in sensibility levels from that of your opposition.

[Sonnet]

Ah and perhaps this is where I take issue with you. Ensign Steve's animal was not miserable, nor was it likely in danger of being miserable, however your posts seemed to imply such. The whole other topic of commercially produced meats is, a whole other topic than pets.Again, that's a matter of opinion. I see the treatment of some people's pets and the mistreatment of meat animals as symptoms of the same problem. I realize that Ensign Steve's dog wasn't in danger or unhappy, and told her as much; I was simply voicing my opinion about a prevalent problem in our society, which is lack of commitment to our pets. The number of healthy domestic animals euthanized every year is a clear indicator that the problem is large. I understand that there are situations in which good people who care for their pets don't get to keep them, and make sure that they find good homes for them; I also think, in terms of the broader argument, that pointing out that a more convenient life without the smell of dog pee is something that every pet owner has already considered by the time they get an animal was neither unfair nor an attack. Hmm-- Yes-- and you may want to consider how you communicate as well.My point about what I thought might be true of a place like Freethinkers is that I had assumed strongly presented opinions and a certain amount of passion about a subject would be more acceptable here instead of less, and that passionate and even angry opinions about the wider subject would be more easily discernible from personal attack. I've seen plenty of perspectives and opinions offered bluntly here, and I tend to think of a frank or even caustic presentation as a writing style rather than a personality defect. I only ask what I offer. Are you a parent? Can you seriously say that you would not place your child's basic needs, or any child's needs above that of a pet? Say you were in a canoe and could only save either your child or your puppy from drowning-- would you not place precedence on the child?I'm not able to have children; I can only assume from the fact that I want them very much that I would love them intensely. What I do have are animals - and lots of people that I love dearly. That's how I feel from where I am. I think questions about drowning babies in canoes are patently unfair, honestly, since most people we know won't ever be in that situation. To offer such an extreme example of applied logic isn't necessarily a fair counterpoint. In the interest of offering an extremely implausible hypothetical example as a reply, I will say that if I were offered the chance to bring back the love of my life by killing my dog I wouldn't do it.Again, it is my opinion that you are mistakenly disparaging folks here who do not agree with you and the term freethinker in the process. I wouldn't say your ideas are new and neither do I feel they were given with the utmost in politeness. Your responses here seemingly to me, do not differ in sensibility levels from that of your opposition.I'm only disparaging the characterization of my posts as 'attacks'. I assume when I post something amongst a group of diverse and thoughtful people that someone is going to disagree. As you might have noticed, whether or not my presentation has been well-accepted, I offer the respect of staying and answering replies.

[Ensign Steve]

I also think, in terms of the broader argument, that pointing out that a more convenient life without the smell of dog pee is something that every pet owner has already considered by the time they get an animal was neither unfair nor an attack.

I didn't give up the dog because of the pee. In fact, I spent a bit of coin less than a week ago to have him tested and treated for a urinary tract infection. It wasn't a training problem, the poor boy was sick. And I did the best I could do to take care of him. Was it inconvenient and expensive? Yes. Was I prepared for inconvenience and expense when I adopted him? For the last time (I hope), YES!

But the inconvenience and expense of moving for the forth time in a year was something I was not prepared for. I do understand, Sonnet, that in my situation, you would have moved. I also believe you when you say that you don't think I am a monster because I did not make the same decision you would have.

I. just. want. to. make. absolutely. clear. for. the. last. time. (I. hope.) that. I. did. not. give. up. my. dog. because. of. fucking. PEE.

What I said was, "On the one hand, it would almost be a relief" [to have a car that didn't smell like urine]. (emphasis mine) Later I said that the urine comment was "more of a look-on-the-bright-side" type of comment.

[Sonnet]

I also think, in terms of the broader argument, that pointing out that a more convenient life without the smell of dog pee is something that every pet owner has already considered by the time they get an animal was neither unfair nor an attack.I didn't give up the dog because of the pee. In fact, I spent a bit of coin less than a week ago to have him tested and treated for a urinary tract infection. It wasn't a training problem, the poor boy was sick. And I did the best I could do to take care of him. Was it inconvenient and expensive? Yes. Was I prepared for inconvenience and expense when I adopted him? For the last time (I hope), YES!

But the inconvenience and expense of moving for the forth time in a year was something I was not prepared for. I do understand, Sonnet, that in my situation, you would have moved. I also believe you when you say that you don't think I am a monster because I did not make the same decision you would have.

I. just. want. to. make. absolutely. clear. for. the. last. time. (I. hope.) that. I. did. not. give. up. my. dog. because. of. fucking. PEE.

What I said was, "On the one hand, it would almost be a relief" [to have a car that didn't smell like urine]. (emphasis mine) Later I said that the urine comment was "more of a look-on-the-bright-side" type of comment.Yes. I realize that. I've said that several times. However, in the context in which you brought it up, offering my counterpoint was NOT a personal attack - and bringing it up again to illustrate that it wasn't a personal attack... wasn't a personal attack. It was just a reply. I'm sorry that you took it personally, because I answered the thread in the first place in the interest of continuing to post to each other despite our previous encounter. The point of discussions on message boards, I always thought, was to address the broader issue, using personal examples as takeoff points for discussions about ideology. I don't know how I could have been more clear in the subsequent discussion about my feelings about you as a pet owner - hence my point about the seeming inability to separate valid counterpoint from personal attack.

[Ensign Steve]

You were clear, Sonnet. I don't feel like I was attacked. I just want to make my motives clear. Not just to you but to the board in general. I feel bad enough about abandoning my dog over what I consider to be a big issue, I'd hate for someone to skim the thread and come to the conclusion that I had done it over something trivial. I'd also hate for someone to conclude that I was a complete moron and didn't know that puppies aren't born housetrained. So my repeated defense is not aimed at any one poster in particular (especially not vm, LS, or pesci, or Sonnet ;)) but at the readership in general. Whether people believe me or agree with me is up to them. As long as I feel I have made myself clear. Repeatedly. Ad nauseum.

[Sonnet]

You were clear, Sonnet. I don't feel like I was attacked. I just want to make my motives clear. Not just to you but to the board in general. I feel bad enough about abandoning my dog over what I consider to be a big issue, I'd hate for anyone to skim the thread and come to the conclusion that I had done it over something trivial. Or for someone to think that I was a complete moron and didn't know that puppies aren't born housetrained. So my repeated defense is not aimed at any poster in particular (especially not vm, LS, or pesci, or Sonnet ;)) but at the readership in general. Whether people believe me or agree with me is on them. As long as I feel I have made myself clear. Repeatedly. Ad nauseum.I'm glad. And you have. I don't think anyone reading this thinks that you were thoughtless or unkind - just as I hope most will be able to see what my motivations were as well.

[pescifish]

I assume when I post something amongst a group of diverse and thoughtful people that someone is going to disagree. As you might have noticed, whether or not my presentation has been well-accepted, I offer the respect of staying and answering replies. In case your repeated comments along these lines are referring to me (although you have not directly accused me of this, so I apologize in advance if you were not), I am very sorry you misunderstood my post. However, I did not say 'THISISWHATITHINKABOUTYOUOHANDI'MNOTCOMINGBACKTOTH ISTHREADSODON'TBOTHERTOREPLYBECAUSEIWON'TREADITYOU MEANIEATTACKER.' I can see how you believe I did, since I was so incompetent in so many ways in posting it.

What I said was several statements intended exactly as written regarding the possible use and value of my opinion. I made no assertions other than a personal opinion of your style, in case you were interested in how you come across to this individual.

While I can see how you might interpret my almost de-assertions and devaluing of my opinion as declaration that I would not respond, I fully intended to respond.

And I did. My response was sincere and genuine in this situation. Your post was expertly done and accomplished a total knockout of my lame-ass weanie-ness which never should have been posted. I wish I were more like you! Yeah, ok, so you mischaracterized my post and slammed me for something I hadn't said, but hell, I can see how what I said sounds exactly as you heard it, even though that wasn't my intent.
When you can follow up on your assertions, I'll go ahead and respect your viewpoint. Exactly! I agree with JoeP, "Well said!" Though I made no assertions of fact, I acknowledged that you might not be interested or respect my opinion. You have absolutely no reason to respect me or my opinion or to be interested in it.

[Sonnet]

I assume when I post something amongst a group of diverse and thoughtful people that someone is going to disagree. As you might have noticed, whether or not my presentation has been well-accepted, I offer the respect of staying and answering replies. In case your repeated comments along these lines are referring to me (although you have not directly accused me of this, so I apologize in advance if you were not), I am very sorry you misunderstood my post. However, I did not say 'THISISWHATITHINKABOUTYOUOHANDI'MNOTCOMINGBACKTOTH ISTHREADSODON'TBOTHERTOREPLYBECAUSEIWON'TREADITYOU MEANIEATTACKER.' I can see how you believe I did, since I was so incompetent in so many ways in posting it.

What I said was several statements intended exactly as written regarding the possible use and value of my opinion. I made no assertions other than a personal opinion of your style, in case you were interested in how you come across to this individual.

While I can see how you might interpret my almost de-assertions and devaluing of my opinion as declaration that I would not respond, I fully intended to respond.

And I did. My response was sincere and genuine in this situation. Your post was expertly done and accomplished a total knockout of my lame-ass weanie-ness which never should have been posted. I wish I were more like you! Yeah, ok, so you mischaracterized my post and slammed me for something I hadn't said, but hell, I can see how what I said sounds exactly as you heard it, even though that wasn't my intent.
When you can follow up on your assertions, I'll go ahead and respect your viewpoint. Exactly! I agree with JoeP, "Well said!" Though I made no assertions of fact, I acknowledged that you might not be interested or respect my opinion. You have absolutely no reason to respect me or my opinion or to be interested in it.

Honestly, none of that was directed at you; you seem like a lovely person.

[justaman]

I have to say, for a place geared toward 'Freethinkers', I've noticed in a couple quite a delicate sensibility and pronounced sense of injury - not to mention the inability to weather relatively mild disagreements well or gracefully.
Me too!

:D

[AspenMama]

Ah and perhaps this is where I take issue with you. Ensign Steve's animal was not miserable, nor was it likely in danger of being miserable, however your posts seemed to imply such. The whole other topic of commercially produced meats is, a whole other topic than pets.Again, that's a matter of opinion. I see the treatment of some people's pets and the mistreatment of meat animals as symptoms of the same problem. I realize that Ensign Steve's dog wasn't in danger or unhappy, and told her as much; I was simply voicing my opinion about a prevalent problem in our society, which is lack of commitment to our pets. The number of healthy domestic animals euthanized every year is a clear indicator that the problem is large.
Now see, I would not have jumped onto a thread like this --where Ensign Steve seemingly wanted some sympathy and advice-- with any particular bandwagon topic I may be passionate about. Why not rather, start a new thread to talk about your topic?

[AspenMama]

Are you a parent? Can you seriously say that you would not place your child's basic needs, or any child's needs above that of a pet? Say you were in a canoe and could only save either your child or your puppy from drowning-- would you not place precedence on the child?I'm not able to have children; I can only assume from the fact that I want them very much that I would love them intensely. What I do have are animals - and lots of people that I love dearly. That's how I feel from where I am. I think questions about drowning babies in canoes are patently unfair, honestly, since most people we know won't ever be in that situation. To offer such an extreme example of applied logic isn't necessarily a fair counterpoint. In the interest of offering an extremely implausible hypothetical example as a reply, I will say that if I were offered the chance to bring back the love of my life by killing my dog I wouldn't do it.

I'm sorry that you are unable to have children. Yes it was an extreme example. But what I'm trying to get at was really the first question, can you ever see yourself in a situation where you would place a human's needs above an animal's needs?

[justaman]

My suggestions were freaking brilliant, just quietly, and it's a crime that they were not pursued.

:brooding: