Men have one less rib bone than women? WTF?!?

[Beth]

My son told me that his science book- a public school book, mind you, said that men have one less rib bone than women. He said his gifted science teacher said that as well. I grew up and was taught we have 206 bones in the body as adults. This was both in secular biology classes and in Christian biology courses. I am pissed right now. My son is convinced I am stupid because I only went to public school through seventh grade before being homeskooled and self educated onward.

He is insisting the proof I printed up via the web is false. I intend to call the teacher tomorrow and figure out what the hell exactly he is teaching my son. My son is insisting this one less rib is proof of the Adam and Eve story.

Am I correct or is are both the text book and teacher correct?

[Crumb]

You are absolutely correct. You should tear that teacher a new one.

[John Carter]

You are correct. With a nod to possible anomalies, men and women generally have the same number of ribs. Have you taken a look at your son's science textbook?

Oh, and the "206" bones in the adult body is actually an average. Some people have more than 206 bones, and some have fewer.

[Crumb]

Maybe you should have your son count his ribs. :wink:

[The Lone Ranger]

I've taught courses in Human Anatomy and Physiology on numerous occasions, and I have personally examined many a human skeleton. I can tell you that men and women both have 24 ribs (12 pairs) apiece.

Sheesh!

I suppose I shouldn't be entirely surprised -- I frequently have students ask if men and women have the same number of ribs and/or express surprise when I mention that humans (i.e. men and women) have 12 pairs of ribs when we get to the axial skeleton.

There's no excuse for an anatomy teacher (even if only at the high school level) to be so ignernt!


Maybe you can call the local university's Biology Department and ask if they have some male and female skeletons you could take a look at. Chances are they do, and that someone would be happy to show 'em to you and let you count ribs.

Cheers,

Michael

[LadyShea]

Your son is being taught bullshit information. Can you look at a copy of your son's textbook? If it does, in fact, contain the wrong information I would call the principal and ask who is in charge of the curriculum.

[John Carter]

Maybe you can call the local university's Biology Department and ask if they have some male and female skeletons you could take a look at. Chances are they do, and that someone would be happy to show 'em to you and let you count ribs.


Or the Anthropology department. Osteology (the study of bones) is a major part of many Physical Anthropology courses, and they will have many different samples of human skeletal material.

[John Carter]

Your son is being taught bullshit information. Can you look at a copy of your son's textbook? If it does, in fact, contain the wrong information I would call the principal and ask who is in charge of the curriculum.

This is why I asked Beth if she had looked at the book herself in my first response.

[seebs]

I have a female friend who has an extra rib, but it's a serious spinal deformity; her spine does a little U-turn, and she can't lift heavy things.

Er. But yes, you're right. What a fuckup.

[Crumb]

This is why I asked Beth if she had looked at the book herself in my first response.

Yes. If the textbook actually says this it is an even bigger problem, and you would have to give us the title and publisher. :wink:

[John Carter]

Beth, just to reiterate the point, I took a lot of Physical Anthropology courses when I was in college. Of the many things we learned, one was all of the various ways to determine the sex of an individual from their skeleton. Counting ribs was not a viable technique.

The obvious and most definitive way is the pelvis. For an adult, just a glance at the pelvis is enough to determine sex. It is really obvious. If you don't have a pelvis, one can usually (with over 95% confidence) figure out what sex the remains are from the skull and mandible. It is more subtle, but the differences are there if you know what to look for. The shape of the chin, the angle of the jaw, the slope of the forehead, and the presence or absence of a little knot on the back of the occipital will give you a pretty good idea. If those are not available either, then you're pretty much out of luck. Oh, you could make a guess based on size, but that would be a very rough and unreliable guess. But if this canard were true, I can think of one situation where it would be of immense use in forensic anthropology. It is almost impossible to identify sex from skeletal remains in juveniles. Sexual differentiation of the skeleton does not occur until after puberty. In these cases, all that would be necessary is to count the ribs. But, alas, it is not true.

Like The Lone Ranger, I have examined many human skeletons and each and every one of them, both male and female, had the same number of ribs.

[JoeP]

He is insisting the proof I printed up via the web is false. I intend to call the teacher tomorrow and figure out what the hell exactly he is teaching my son. My son is insisting this one less rib is proof of the Adam and Eve story.

Am I correct or is are both the text book and teacher correct?
No connection with religious motivation, but this reminds me of when I was 11 or 12 and my younger sisters (ganging up together) told me that "a million" was the same as "ten thousand". I laughed and said "do you think all my teachers and all the textbooks I've seen are wrong?" They were straight-faced, even angry, in insisting it must be so.

Conviction is highly suspect as evidence for anything, but people still get persuaded.

I bet the textbook doesn't say that. But if it does, post the details here, post a comment at Amazon etc, and complain to the school.

joe

[Beth]

Thanks for the response, guys. No, I have not seen this particular part of the text book, but I asked my son to bring it home today. I am wondering if this is in fact being taught as fact because I asked a student from my son's class this morning about it and he confirmed this.

[The Lone Ranger]

It's difficult to believe that a textbook could contain such an egregious error, even at the high school level. So, I'm guessing that the teacher's at fault and hasn't paid too much attention to the book.

After all, it's not as if we've only recently discovered that men and women have the same number of ribs -- this is centuries-old knowledge!


If the textbook actually makes this claim, the issue isn't just that it contains a blatant falsehood -- which is plenty bad-enough -- it's that the only reason I can think of for such a falsehood is that the author and/or publisher believes this for religious reasons*. It's comparable to a geology textbook insisting that the Earth is only 10,000 years old -- it's blatantly wrong, and there's only one reason why any remotely competent author would make such a claim -- allowing religious teachings to take precidence over easily-checked facts.

*Sure, maybe the author was lazy and was simply repeating what (s)he was taught, but if that's the case, why is someone who's obviously ignorant of the material writing a textbook on it, for crying out loud?

Cheers,

Michael

[LadyShea]

Did he bring the book home, Beth? Is it possible he wants to believe this because he was taught it at church and was trying to make it real by making up the science book story?

[TomJoe]

All good Christians know that, prior to the first sin in the Garden of Eden, Adam had awesome regenerative powers. God took a rib, Adam grew it back.

[Beth]

Did he bring the book home, Beth? Is it possible he wants to believe this because he was taught it at church and was trying to make it real by making up the science book story?
He said he forgot to. That may be because I picked him up up early yesterday. He still insists that it is in the book, that it was on a test, but I am thinking it may be more teacher influence. I wanted to see the text book before I discuss this with the teacher.

I do think it is possible that he heard it at church, but, he was telling me about it last week and it really did not register with me until I actually heard him tell me about it in a calm conversation, rather than all the ambushing while I am rushing to get dinner prepared, laundry washed and folded, floors cleaned, all befor practice or before company shows up. Sadly, unless the kids talk to me before they go to bed or when we are walking or gardening, I don't always listen well.

Anyway, Easter was only the second or third time he's been to church this year, and my son never brough it up months ago when he did attend church. But you did raise a good point. I'll talk to him further this weekend and look at the book and test then decide what I will discuss with the teacher.

[beyelzu]

All good Christians know that, prior to the first sin in the Garden of Eden, Adam had awesome regenerative powers. God took a rib, Adam grew it back.
:tmgrin:

[LadyShea]

Beth, I hate to ask this, but if not at church, is it possible he learned it from his dad or some other Christian influence? You said your son thinks you're stupid (did he say that? did you beat his ass?), maybe he is trying to fuck with you over the atheism thing.

[Beth]

Wel, my son idolizes his gifted teacher. There are some things I have had to correct my son on. His teacher has said that aspartame and artificial sweeteners cause cancer. I told him that only one sweetener, saccharine, that I know of was said to be a carcinogen. I was stupid then. He feels the same about his father if his opinion varies from his teacher's so I don't know.

I know my husband would never claim something as stupid as men having one less rib, but I am not sure about the others.

He did not say I was stupid, he implied I was. He said that his teacher knows more than me and that I only went to seventh grade, so the teacher knows more than me.

[LadyShea]

Ah. Well, I was raised to question authority and knowing that my teachers weren't always right. It was proven to me when my teacher mispronounced Tucson and she punished me when I politely corrected her. Also, my best friend is a teacher, and has many mistaken beliefs, ill informed opinions and sucks at research and so asks me about various things...just like when we were in high school, before she got higher educmucated.

I don't know the best way to teach your son that lesson. Maybe you can have him talk with your family doctor or friend who is a doctor? If he is impressed with education, tell him doctors have much more education than teachers and know more about the human body.

[The Lone Ranger]

How best to illustrate the point that "well-educated" doesn't necessarily mean "smart" or even "well-informed"?

I know: George W. Bush has a master's degree -- from Harvard, no less. It's true! (An MBA, to be precise.)


Cheers,

Michael

[John Carter]

I'll never forget how my Physical Anthropology 101 professor began his lecture on the first day of classes. He said that there would be times when he and the textbook would contradict each other, and that we should always take both with a grain of salt and think for ourselves. He even went on to say we should do so with all of our coursework. This is a lesson your son needs to learn.

[squian]

I forget the source now but there was a serious study of the human anatomy that concluded women had fewer rib bones than men.

The study done in the 1800s in France was flawed because the doctor did not take into account that his female patients had 1 or 2 rib pairs removed so they could better fit into their corsets.

I've always remembered the anecdote as an example of how susceptible science is to distortion by society.

[lpetrich]

That the two sexes have the same number of ribs has been known for centuries; Sir Thomas Browne debunked the different-number notion in his 1672 debunking book Pseudodoxia Epidemica ("Vulgar Errors").

So we've had to struggle for over 300 years. :eek:

[Ronin]

Beth:

If your son acquires superior validation of information by appealing to experience and authority, let him know that as a detective sergeant who specializes in homicide/death investigations, I have personally attended the autopsies of males, females, adults and infants.

After the required precise and thorough examination of these cadavers, to include any damage/anomalies to organs and bones, I am here to verify that men and women have the same number of ribs.

Of course, this does not invalidate the claims of the Adam and Eve story at all due to the argument from credulity.

That is to say, once God took the rib from Adam and made Eve out of it...He obviously made her with as many ribs as Adam now had.

:wizard3:

[Crumb]

That is to say, once God took the rib from Adam and made Eve out of it...He obviously made her with as many ribs as Adam now had.

Or the fact that acquired characteristics are not inherited.

[Ensign Steve]

Unless you count Adam's apple.

[TomJoe]

That is to say, once God took the rib from Adam and made Eve out of it...He obviously made her with as many ribs as Adam now had.

Or the fact that acquired characteristics are not inherited.

Lamarckism is making a comeback. See epigenetics (https://notes.utk.edu/Bio/greenberg.nsf/0/b360905554fdb7d985256ec5006a7755?OpenDocument).

[JoeP]

All good Christians know that, prior to the first sin in the Garden of Eden, Adam had awesome regenerative powers. God took a rib, Adam grew it back.
However, this is not like growing a boner.

[John Carter]

Have there been any new developments on this, Beth?