Lemony Snicket

[Albion]

Has anybody else been reading "A Series of Unfortunate Events"? Yes, I know it's a children's series, but I'm in Harry Potter withdrawal.

It has to be one of the weirdest sets of books I've read in ages; I didn't realise how far I'd been sucked in till I reached the end of book ten and started getting frustrated that they weren't all available yet. The Unauthorized Autobiography didn't exactly help make the plot clearer.

Any ideas on who Beatrice will turn out to be?

[HelenM]

I haven't read them, but my children have and they've also listened to the audiobooks from the iibrary (read by the author). I've heard bits and pieces of the audiobooks as they've listened and find them irritating both in the way he reads them and in the way they're written - I don't like the constant explaining of words, for one thing. (Have you read the Unauthorised biography of Lemony Snicket? The stories are weird but not nearly as strange as that book...)

I like Harry Potter in book and audiobook form - the movies are not as good. (The third movie is the best artistically and dramatically but leaves some important background out, unfortunately)

If you like Harry Potter you could try the His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman, which is an adventure fantasy for young adults. It's quite a bit more complex than Harry Potter. I thought it was very exciting and well-written. By the way, the author, who is open in interviews about his dislike of Christianity, depicts the church as an evil institution in these books.

Helen

[Albion]

I haven't read them, but my children have and they've also listened to the audiobooks from the iibrary (read by the author). I've heard bits and pieces of the audiobooks as they've listened and find them irritating both in the way he reads them and in the way they're written - I don't like the constant explaining of words, for one thing. (Have you read the Unauthorised biography of Lemony Snicket? The stories are weird but not nearly as strange as that book...)

Yes, I've read the autobiography; in terms of helping sort the story out, it was about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I had no idea this set of books was going to turn into quite such a tangled detective story. How do your children like them?

I like Harry Potter in book and audiobook form - the movies are not as good. (The third movie is the best artistically and dramatically but leaves some important background out, unfortunately)

Yes, both the second and third movies (particularly the latter) do depend on your having read the books before they make real sense. I checked some vital aspects of PoA with a friend who'd seen the movie but not read the book, and he'd missed them altogether. I really didn't like the second movie and the way it sacrificed important parts of the plot (like Harry meeting the Malfoys in Knockturn Alley) to concentrate on special effects like that bloody flying car sequence and all the stuff with the spiders. I hope JK Rowling's newly announced pregnancy won't delay Book Six. Now that the title's been announced, I've been seeing all sorts of speculation about who the Half Blood Prince is, since it's supposed to be somehow also relevant to the second book. So far the consensus seems to be that it's Hagrid or possibly Dudley (although I can't for the life of me see how it could be Dudley).

If you like Harry Potter you could try the His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman, which is an adventure fantasy for young adults. It's quite a bit more complex than Harry Potter. I thought it was very exciting and well-written. By the way, the author, who is open in interviews about his dislike of Christianity, depicts the church as an evil institution in these books.

I read them about a year ago; they're very interesting and have quite a different feel from the Potter books. Somehow I don't have quite the interest in rereading them as I do in rereading Harry Potter; it was a bit of an effort to read them, although it was well worth it.

BTW, do your children know that the first three Snicket books are coming out as a movie in December?

[Adora]

I've seen these books in the bookstores but never paid them much attention before. I may pick one up this week, if you say they're okay. I've heard they're making a movie of them with Jim Carey in it. Hell only knows what that's going to be like (and how the fans are going to react).

I love Pullman's stuff. His Dark Materials was a response to Lewis' brainwashing Narnia BS. And what a response it was. Damn, I have to get my set of the books back off a friend I lent them to... I especially loved the Deaths, and the pomo metaphors in the daemons. And the gay angels. Gotta love that.

Seeing PoA finally made me get off my arse and read the HP books, even though I'd read a glut of fanfiction beforehand (yes, reading the fanfiction before the original text is weird, but I've never been one to do anything the normal way). I still think CoS was the best book so far, and of course, PoA the best movie. JKR needs to be beaten around the head with a very large edition of "editing for dummies" and "PR for dummies". The woman's such a fucking amateur...

I've been seeing all sorts of speculation about who the Half Blood Prince is, since it's supposed to be somehow also relevant to the second book.

Godric. Has big shiny fuckoff expensive sword that appeared in said book. Name is a ruler's name (-ric) that means "Power of God". Was all but written out of the final draft of CoS, thus paving the way for the makings of another book, more fan speculation and JKR getting to nonce around for 6 years pretending she's working on it.

[Albion]

She'd better be working on it! I hope this three-year gap between books doesn't become standard practice.

Word of caution about the Snicket books - it isn't until about the fourth or fifth book that it starts to really become clear that it's an ongoing mystery story rather than just a bunch of isolated episodes. At least, it wasn't clear to me at any rate, until "The Austere Academy," whichever one that is. On the other hand, I tend to skim over books rather quickly; a more careful reader might have seen it coming a bit sooner.

Like Helen said, the writing style is very idiosyncratic; I found it entertaining rather than irritating, but I can certainly see how it might grate on people.

[seebs]

I have read the first book or so of these. I believe we own the first three, in a little boxed set. I got them for my wife, who loves weird stuff. I also got a set for a friend of mine, named Melony, whom people often call Lemony. No relation, but she finds them hilarious.

[HelenM]

Yes, I've read the autobiography; in terms of helping sort the story out, it was about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Indeed :eek:

I had no idea this set of books was going to turn into quite such a tangled detective story. How do your children like them?

They seem to like them very much. They have both read all of them, which is not saying that much for my son, who will try reading anything, but my daughter is more selective about what she reads.

Yes, both the second and third [Harry Potter] movies (particularly the latter) do depend on your having read the books before they make real sense. I checked some vital aspects of PoA with a friend who'd seen the movie but not read the book, and he'd missed them altogether.

They really should have explained who Moody, Prongs, Padfoot, etc were. It would have only taken a moment - I don't see why they didn't.

I really didn't like the second movie and the way it sacrificed important parts of the plot (like Harry meeting the Malfoys in Knockturn Alley) to concentrate on special effects like that bloody flying car sequence and all the stuff with the spiders.

I found the pace of the first two movies too slow - it didn't quite work. The star studded adult cast couldn't overcome that.

I hope JK Rowling's newly announced pregnancy won't delay Book Six. Now that the title's been announced, I've been seeing all sorts of speculation about who the Half Blood Prince is, since it's supposed to be somehow also relevant to the second book. So far the consensus seems to be that it's Hagrid or possibly Dudley (although I can't for the life of me see how it could be Dudley).

I don't see how it could be Dudley either.

I read [the His Dark Materials books] about a year ago; they're very interesting and have quite a different feel from the Potter books.

Yes, they do.

Somehow I don't have quite the interest in rereading them as I do in rereading Harry Potter; it was a bit of an effort to read them, although it was well worth it.

They certainly aren't as easy to read as Harry Potter. And the sexual themes and violence and darkness are more appropriate for young adults (in my opinion) than children, unlike Harry Potter, which by comparison does well at avoiding graphic violence and sexual themes, even when Harry develops a love interest in book 5.

BTW, do your children know that the first three Snicket books are coming out as a movie in December?

Absolutely - I'm sure we'll go see it. I don't mind that - we saw the trailer and it looked like it will be fun.

Like Helen said, the writing style [of Lemony Snicket] is very idiosyncratic; I found it entertaining rather than irritating, but I can certainly see how it might grate on people.

Maybe I wouldn't mind it in writing, but his reading of his books really grates on me, because he reads them in an exaggerated way that I do find irritating. It probably works fine for kids, though.

By the way, it seems to me that 'weird' is getting more and more popular in kids books and movies. "Cat in the Hat" (a very stupid movie - I don't recommend it) is weird and, going back a few years, I thought "Inspector Gadget" was weird too.

Helen

[HelenM]

I've seen these books in the bookstores but never paid them much attention before. I may pick one up this week, if you say they're okay. I've heard they're making a movie of them with Jim Carey in it. Hell only knows what that's going to be like (and how the fans are going to react).

The trailer looked quite entertaining. From the little I know, I think they lend themselves well to a Jim Carrey piece of entertainment, because they have that sort of exaggerated tone that keeps something from being too serious.

I love Pullman's stuff. His Dark Materials was a response to Lewis' brainwashing Narnia BS. And what a response it was.

I found it very powerful. It's way better writing than the Narnia books in its creativity, timing, excitement, character development.

Damn, I have to get my set of the books back off a friend I lent them to... I especially loved the Deaths, and the pomo metaphors in the daemons. And the gay angels. Gotta love that.

The deaths were great. I don't remember the gay angels and I probably missed the porno metaphors.

Seeing PoA finally made me get off my arse and read the HP books, even though I'd read a glut of fanfiction beforehand (yes, reading the fanfiction before the original text is weird, but I've never been one to do anything the normal way). I still think CoS was the best book so far, and of course, PoA the best movie. JKR needs to be beaten around the head with a very large edition of "editing for dummies" and "PR for dummies". The woman's such a fucking amateur...

Yes - her use of adjectives is lamentable. Even my kids noticed that she uses the same few over and over again. But the way she takes the details of 'normal life' and puts a little twist in them to create the wizarding world is brilliant; especially the school stuff. And she does pretty well with humor, overall.

When I read them to my daughter I liked the PoA best. I had to read for ages when we got to the scene in the shrieking shack - way past the 30 mins I usually aim for - because there was nowhere to stop.

I liked the wand interaction in GoF. I think JK has lots of good creative ideas. But I definitely agree about the editing.

Godric. Has big shiny fuckoff expensive sword that appeared in said book. Name is a ruler's name (-ric) that means "Power of God". Was all but written out of the final draft of CoS, thus paving the way for the makings of another book, more fan speculation and JKR getting to nonce around for 6 years pretending she's working on it.

The sword is mentioned again near the end of book 5. It seems to me that Harry is bound to inherit and use it at some point (since it belonged to the founder of his school house, Godric Gryffindor).

Helen

[JoeP]

Yes, Adora, please explain "the pomo metaphors in the daemons"

I spotted the gay angels; fun. I loved his invention of a slightly alternate reality via language like the whole anbaric/electric thing - of which the best is the Cthonic Railway. What brilliance.

I don't agree with his vicious criticisms of the Narnia books; I loved them and stayed a happy atheist. But there is a fundamental difference in the coherence of the two series. It's very obvious that TLTWATW was written before the rest of the Narnia world was invented, and the invention proceeds book by book. I doubt he knew he would write more in the series when he was writing the first. In fact having Father Christmas in TLTWATW is totally out of keeping with the rest.

His Dark Materials, however, is a well-conceived coherent whole. It's only revealed in stages but the tone and feel is consistent and it holds together.

[Adora]

The deaths were great. I don't remember the gay angels and I probably missed the porno metaphors

I said POMO metaphors. Put your glasses on...

As I mentioned, I don't have the books here with me, so I can't look up the angels' names. All I remember is that they help Will when he's moving between worlds and through the areas where the War of Heaven is being fought out. And one of them meets a tragic demise.

the pomo metaphors in the daemons

Well, they're like some of Lacan and Derrida's definition of the self as the interaction with others. The daemons only stop changing when they find a strong connection (love) with another human and thus are "defined" by that connection. They're also like Jung's anima/animus theories. *shrugs* I really need to read them again to describe it better... but as mentioned, I can't right now.

When I read them to my daughter I liked the PoA best. I had to read for ages when we got to the scene in the shrieking shack - way past the 30 mins I usually aim for - because there was nowhere to stop.

...

But I definitely agree about the editing.

Ahh yes. I remember reading OotP, and enjoying it for the almost normal psychology Harry is starting to display (nevermind the childhood scars from being abused), but my gods, page after page after page of running around in the Department of Mysteries, beating uber-Death Eaters with some pathetic little spells and Dumbledore showing up to save the day, AGAIN, kind of ruined it for me. It was like she didn't know how, or when, to end it. And everyone recovers quite happily, Lucius won't be going insane anytime soon because the Dementors have handily left Azkaban and Ron has no psychological scars whatsoever from being mindfucked/brain-tentacle-raped. :yawn: GoF was a much better ending to me.

Final JKR bitch: She needs to dump CAPSLOCK!Harry. We know when he's angry & yelling. We don't need capital letters to tell us so.

TLTWATW always seemed to be to the Narnia Chronicles what The Hobbit was to the Lord of the Rings. Or something.

[Beth]

I just started on book one. I adore them, as does she and it keeps her from Junie B Jones. I like the word explanation. I do not have to stop and explain for myself a word meaning. I think it is very good for the younger readers. I also think it is done in the style of, well, maybe a parent telling a story. anyway, I look forward to working on the future books with my daughter.

[Albion]

I just started on book one. I adore them, as does she and it keeps her from Junie B Jones. I like the word explanation. I do not have to stop and explain for myself a word meaning. I think it is very good for the younger readers. I also think it is done in the style of, well, maybe a parent telling a story. anyway, I look forward to working on the future books with my daughter.

When I saw that the books were meant for readers aged nine and above (I think that was the age, anyway), I was a bit surprised because the first one seemed to be written for a younger age group, but the more of them I read, the more it made sense. The story is getting quite complicated (especially when you read the unauthorised autobiography too). The writing style is very idiosyncratic, though.

[HelenM]

The deaths were great. I don't remember the gay angels and I probably missed the porno metaphors

I said POMO metaphors. Put your glasses on...

So you did - silly me. :blush:

Thanks for explaining below what pomo metaphors are.

As I mentioned, I don't have the books here with me, so I can't look up the angels' names. All I remember is that they help Will when he's moving between worlds and through the areas where the War of Heaven is being fought out. And one of them meets a tragic demise.

Oh, I do remember now. The two enormous guys who loved each other totally.

the pomo metaphors in the daemons

Well, they're like some of Lacan and Derrida's definition of the self as the interaction with others. The daemons only stop changing when they find a strong connection (love) with another human and thus are "defined" by that connection. They're also like Jung's anima/animus theories. *shrugs* I really need to read them again to describe it better... but as mentioned, I can't right now.

I don't know about those author's theories. I thought that they stopped changing at puberty - that them settling into a fixed form indicated the child had become an adult. I think it's more that falling in love is another indication of adulthood - at least, according to the books - and that's why both that and daemons taking a fixed form happened at the same time.

When I read them to my daughter I liked the PoA best. I had to read for ages when we got to the scene in the shrieking shack - way past the 30 mins I usually aim for - because there was nowhere to stop.

...

But I definitely agree about the editing.

Ahh yes. I remember reading OotP, and enjoying it for the almost normal psychology Harry is starting to display (nevermind the childhood scars from being abused), but my gods, page after page after page of running around in the Department of Mysteries, beating uber-Death Eaters with some pathetic little spells and Dumbledore showing up to save the day, AGAIN, kind of ruined it for me. It was like she didn't know how, or when, to end it. And everyone recovers quite happily, Lucius won't be going insane anytime soon because the Dementors have handily left Azkaban and Ron has no psychological scars whatsoever from being mindfucked/brain-tentacle-raped. :yawn: GoF was a much better ending to me.

I thought Harry's anger in OotP and his discovery/realization/understanding that there were things about his father he wouldn't want to emulate was quite realistic. Although the anger could have been more subtlety treated - the point was rather sledgehammered home. But then, there isn't much subtlety in Harry Potter.

Helen

[HelenM]

I just started on book one. I adore them, as does she and it keeps her from Junie B Jones. I like the word explanation. I do not have to stop and explain for myself a word meaning. I think it is very good for the younger readers. I also think it is done in the style of, well, maybe a parent telling a story. anyway, I look forward to working on the future books with my daughter.

I'm glad you're enjoying it. Like you, I'm glad to see my daughter read something other than Junie B. Jones books or their equivalent. She read all the Lemony Snickett books by herself after hearing parts of the series on audiobook, when my son got the audiobooks out of the library.

Helen

[Beth]

Well I finished the first book the other day with my kids. Alot was postponed due to hurricanes and surgery on my daughter and a bad recovery. I thought the book was rather good at first. I was excited at the prospect of finding a new series that book my children love and that I can enjoy too.

Now, it was ok in the first book, the abuse and so on. I understand there are kids who are stuck in an abusive setting and feel trapped and unable to see they have help. But these kids went to the trustee of their fortune, someone who is supposed to look over their well being, they show that abuse takes place, leaving a bruise, and they get cited some loco parentitis crap, saying ther Count is legally allowed to do that. Bull. I think that was the first thing I got upset about. I then told my kids that if anyone, including Daddy or Myself did such a thing to them, barring from some accidental injury (the kids are hyper walk into hand motions sometimes to my distress) that it is illegal. I told them if any adult or older person whom they are in their care does such a thing, the law will help them.

The second was the whole grand marriage play ( I do not have the book in front of me) this upset the kids. I was upset over the simple perversion of it. I had to explain that if a guardian did such a thing, it would be considered incestual and the law would prosecute if this were to happen to an underage person. I was also upset at the sheer cruelty toward the infant and how the children felt they could not go to anyone, including the judge, who is legally obligated to step in at a sign of abuse and order investigation.

I also thought the end when the deed was done, the judges hands were apparantly tied, no mention of annullment, which could be legally ordered by the trustee since the act was done during duress and was an incestual union. I also found the solution rather dull and anti cliimatic. ...My kids loved the book! *ug

We are on the second now. It also is upseting. To me, it is teaching the children that they can be downtrodden and victimized and that adults will not offer help so you must suffer and face peril until you can do it alone.

I realize Harry Potter has a somewhat similar theme, a far as the kids facing peril, but it is a magical book, less a book of reality. Harry Potter also seems to be a more empowering message, for some reason. I will read the Lemony Snickett books till the kids get through them or lose interest, and I will not show or voice any concerns, unless it is to tell them what would really happen IRL if they sought help...How can I possibly discurage them both reading together without fighting?

[HelenM]

Hi Beth,

I suppose you don't want to know that the latest book in the series is due out today. ;) My son begged me to go get it for him today and I said I would (he's paying for it with his allowance, but we're busy after school with music lessons so I'd rather get it for him during the day).

Anyway, I understand you being upset by the 'messages' in the series, but I doubt children who have trustworthy adults in real life will make general inferences about the untrustworthiness of all adults from the series. I do think the series comes across as fantasy even though it doesn't have the magical fantasy element that Harry Potter has.

Fwiw, my impression from the trailer is that the movie of Lemony Snicket will make the story seem quite fantastical too.

Helen

[Beth]

Hi. Helen!
I know. I just think the initial thrill I had with the book is gone. I read hundreds of children's books, both with my kids and with school children and since I have read so many I have more of an expectation with the books that are read, I think. Perhaps I'm a little snobbish about them even (perhaps that is a little lame? being a children's literature snob?) I do think the initial book is rather poorly written in reguards to literary elements that I look for. I am trying to keep in mind that this is a series, so I must look at this as one long book. So the second and third book may add to it. And my initial reaction after reading the first book may change.

The points that I raised with the kids were only brought up because they upset my daughter horribly and the wedding upset my son as well. Perhaps this is why the reading level is set at a higher lever,...because the content is a little more disturbing to younger kids.(Maybe I should have clarified that I was more disturbed that my daughter was upset with this stuff.) But, I do not mind this, it allowed for me to discuss these elements with the kids and I had the opportunity to explain what their rights as children are under the law. Perhaps I made them feel as little less helpless in a world of adults and a little more like equals? Not sure. I do think my son is able to find the ironic humor in them and he is reading without my coercement. He actually is wanting to read!

The books, although they are not realistic to me, as the villian is so stupid but can outsmart the smarter adults, I think it has a more realistic element to it, than Harry Potter does, although Potter seems more human and is a richer character.

Perhaps when the movie comes out and my daughter sees this portrayed in a more fantastical way, she will be less upset by the story plot. I read about the Horribly Venomous Snake, and the other creatures, that helped set a more fantastical tone...so maybe I will like the series again after the end of the book.

The newest book...sigh.

[HelenM]

The points that I raised with the kids were only brought up because they upset my daughter horribly and the wedding upset my son as well. Perhaps this is why the reading level is set at a higher lever,...because the content is a little more disturbing to younger kids.

Sorry Beth - I should have read more carefully to see that it upset your children.

I don't think it bothered mine - at least, they didn't tell me if it did and they're both keen to see the movie.

Helen

[Beth]

The points that I raised with the kids were only brought up because they upset my daughter horribly and the wedding upset my son as well. Perhaps this is why the reading level is set at a higher lever,...because the content is a little more disturbing to younger kids.

Sorry Beth - I should have read more carefully to see that it upset your children.

I don't think it bothered mine - at least, they didn't tell me if it did and they're both keen to see the movie.

HelenOh, hehe. No, it's fine. I figured I sounded like one of those rabid anti-Harry Potter moms. :P I probably did! My kids often make story time into one long tedious sesion because they interrupt me to interject a comment, something I must say annoys me a little and tries my patience at times, but it is probably a good thing. Maybe?
:glare: :D

Anyway...I do not think you misread, I probably did not make my stance clear enough and you were most gracious not to critique my insane mom ranting. ;)

[HelenM]

My kids often make story time into one long tedious sesion because they interrupt me to interject a comment, something I must say annoys me a little and tries my patience at times, but it is probably a good thing. Maybe?
:glare: :D

Oh, my daughter used to do that and it would drive me nuts!!! After a few times I would say "If you interrupt me one more time I'm going to stop reading!"

But if I read a difficult word or sentence I think she won't understand, I stop and ask her if she did. And she usually says "no", so then I explain it.

I bought a book called something like The White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge, that was supposed to be a children's book. I read a page and thought "this language is so hard, there's no way she can be following this". Sure enough, she had no idea what I'd just read. So we gave up on that book right away!

By the way, she really liked Journey to the River Seas, by Eva Ibbotson. When we were on vacation in England I went into a bookstore in one of the castle towns and they told me Eva Ibbotson's son-in-law worked there! (But he wasn't there that day). At that bookstore they had signed copies of her latest book so I got one for my son.

Anyway...I do not think you misread, I probably did not make my stance clear enough and you were most gracious not to critique my insane mom ranting. ;)

...if that's what it is. I do too much it myself to dare comment (you know what they say: people in glass houses... :eek: :D )

Helen

[viscousmemories]

I've not read the books but I saw the movie last night and loved it. IMO the casting was perfect, the story was entertaining enough and the sets and scenery reminded me a lot of a cross between Tim Burton and Edward Gorey - very dark and fantastical, yet beautiful. Plus I laughed out loud numerous times, which is fairly rare for me.

[Morroskye]

I loved this film too! My dream would be to live in the house Meryl Streep did! A house wrapped/built around a tree overhanging a rocky stormy shore below! Some friends mocked me for seeing this movie but I thoroughly enjoyed it!

[Ari]

Just recently watched the movie.

The story.
Not bad, I partially liked the distorted abusive world, it reminded me a lot like Harry Potter when he is staying away from school. The only difference is, we don't know the characters as well and they don't have the powers that Harry does. So it put a more serious spin on things. In Harry Potter if they were to be really violent to Harry, we know he could and probably would fight back (even if it was uncontroled) but these characters didn't seem like they could handle it. I also disliked the way the count looked at Violet a couple times. I assume it was because he saw her as a big bag of money, but when you have an abusive older guy looking at a young teenage girl under his roof, it spells trouble in my mind. The scene with the count and their aunt on the water seemed a bit sadistic for younger viewers.

The kid actors were good, it was Jim Carrey that bothered me. He was good as the count until he slipped into "Jim Carrey" comedy, such as walking around as a dinosaur. It hurt the movie because it made you realize you weren't watching the count, but Jim Carrey screw around on stage pretending to be the count.


The art and scenery.
Awesome. I rewatched the movie just to get another look at the styles, costumes and houses. I want every house shown. :)

[viscousmemories]

Not bad, I partially liked the distorted abusive world, it reminded me a lot like Harry Potter when he is staying away from school. The only difference is, we don't know the characters as well and they don't have the powers that Harry does. So it put a more serious spin on things. In Harry Potter if they were to be really violent to Harry, we know he could and probably would fight back (even if it was uncontroled) but these characters didn't seem like they could handle it. I also disliked the way the count looked at Violet a couple times. I assume it was because he saw her as a big bag of money, but when you have an abusive older guy looking at a young teenage girl under his roof, it spells trouble in my mind. The scene with the count and their aunt on the water seemed a bit sadistic for younger viewers.

Those are all very good points. :1thumbup: