Agh! It's woo, but it might work? WTF!?!?

[seebs]

So, someone I know is sort of woo-prone. Like, I only recently convinced her that homeopathy is bunk, and it took some doing.

So when she recommended that I take "L-theanine", I pretty much filed it under "woo". Then...

Science News mentioned it (http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/69708/title/Brain_Boosters).

Well. That's different. Woo that reproduces in a laboratory is sort of not very woo like. And certainly, the specific observed behavior (improved executive function in conjunction with caffeine) would be very useful to me. So I got some and tried it. And... yeah, it does seem to be improving my ability to decide to do something and then do it without getting distracted so much.

Can someone who knows something about chemistry or brains tell me why this might or might not work? (Yes, I'm aware of placebo. I've had very little luck with it, though, I don't seem to get anything from Strattera even though I was pretty sure it ought to work for me, and generic bupropion does seem to help even though I didn't expect it to.) Casual googling turns up people angrily insisting that it can't possibly help with ADHD, and other people saying it definitely does, and also that it's good for anxiety, which has not been one of my problems.

[Deadlokd]

Just had a look on Wiki. It's packed full of functional groups, an amino group, a hydroxyl group, two oxygens. The article says it has a weak affinity for the glutamate receptor in post synaptic cells but "its primary effect seems to increase the overall level of the brain inhibitory transmitter GABA." GABA regulates neuronal excitability so if L-theanine is upregulating GABA it's acting as a neural depressant.

Can it work on ADHD? Sounds like it.

I'd have to hit some databases to discover how it upregulates GABA exactly. Let me know if you're that interested.

[seebs]

I am in fact very interested, because I have cripplingly bad ADHD, and I don't tolerate stimulants well (they give me heart weirdness which is probably atrial fibrilation). What I'm noticing is that, just very much "how do I feel" level, I feel like I've got more focus and more ability to handle things without losing my previous state than I used to.

[Deadlokd]

Okay. I have a pretty in depth job application to prepare today but I'll try to have a look later or tomorrow at the latest.

The thing with woo is that it stops being woo once it's been scientifically investigated and found to work. Then it becomes medicine.

[seebs]

Yeah. I just... I mean, come on. It's supposed to work because it's in tea. How the heck did that work?

But yeah, it does seem to work. No big rush, I'm just curious. I'm probably gonna keep taking it 'cuz, well. It seems to make me feel more focusy.

[Deadlokd]

If you drink it and you have no digestive enzymes that work on it then yes, it gets transferred to your bloodstream unchanged. Then it crosses the blood brain barrier and...works. As far as the "tea" aspect goes, you can drink a tea made from cannabis and get stoned. Same thing. It's just a form of intake.

If it's helping then definitely keep taking it. I'll come up with some scientific reasons why it works for you.

[Deadlokd]

Okay, so I did a quick search and skim and so far the news is good.

In peer reviewed journals theanine has been found to increase neural development in baby mice. It has also been found that black tea contains more theanine than green tea (24.2 ± 5.7 mg compared to 7.9 ± 3.8 mg). Another study looked at the effect of theanine on β-amyloid production. Aβ is the main constituent of the amyloid plaques that cause Alzheimers. Theanine inhibits Aβ production and induces the production of several kinases, all useful for cognition. It also induces gluthionine synthesis, a major antioxidant produced in our cells.

Another study looked at theanine and caffeine interactions and their effect on cognition and mood. It was found that:

In addition to improving RVIP (Rapid Visual Information Processing) accuracy and ‘mental fatigue’ ratings, the combination also led to faster simple reaction time, faster numeric working memory reaction time and improved sentence verification accuracy. ‘Headache’ and ‘tired’ ratings were reduced and ‘alert’ ratings increased. There was also a significant positive caffeine × l-theanine term interaction on delayed word recognition reaction time.

All this looks good from a "normal" brain perspective but would also impact significantly on your ADHD. If you have access to a science database you can look these up. There's probably no point me linking to the articles directly since you need a log in to access them and I'm not putting mine out there for people to use. Mainly because it's my uni log in.

Theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, increases neurotransmission concentrations and neurotrophin mRNA levels in the brain during lactation

How much theanine in a cup of tea? Effects of tea type and method of preparation

l-Theanine, an amino acid in green tea, attenuates β-amyloid-induced cognitive dysfunction and neurotoxicity: Reduction in oxidative damage and inactivation of ERK/p38 kinase and NF-κB pathways

The effects of l-theanine, caffeine and their combination on cognition and mood

[Deadlokd]

Also! These are peer reviewed journals. The method has been explained and approved of, the results are replicable.

You could learn something from this Sophia.

[wildernesse]

Theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, increases neurotransmission concentrations and neurotrophin mRNA levels in the brain during lactation (http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17904164)

How much theanine in a cup of tea? Effects of tea type and method of preparation (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-511TNJ3-6&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F15%2F2011&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1669004960&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d682dbf2a1114bd4fd73d497bb1c92d4&searchtype=a)

l-Theanine, an amino acid in green tea, attenuates β-amyloid-induced cognitive dysfunction and neurotoxicity: Reduction in oxidative damage and inactivation of ERK/p38 kinase and NF-κB pathways (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19766184)

The effects of l-theanine, caffeine and their combination on cognition and mood (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18006208)

Added links to the abstracts of these papers. If there is a university near you, you may be able to read these papers on-site at their library or through your local library. Call a reference librarian at the library to find out.

You can also search Google Scholar to find some full peer-reviewed articles on whatever keyword you are searching.

[Sophia]

Careful! Accept that the basis of mental function is physiological and next thing you know, you might be considering brain volume, neuron count, gray matter density and distribution, tissue folds and fissures and other attributes which vary by race and ethnicity. Don't mean to come off as obsessed, but the fervent belief in liberal creationism in these parts is hilarious.

Anyway, as to whether L-theanine is effective, the evidence is rather inconclusive. The real question is whether it works in your brain, which is highly atypical. So I suggest you personally try the stuff and find out for yourself.

[Deadlokd]

Careful! Accept that the basis of mental function is physiological and next thing you know, you might be considering brain volume, neuron count, gray matter density and distribution, tissue folds and fissures and other attributes which vary by race and ethnicity. Don't mean to come off as obsessed, but the fervent belief in liberal creationism in these parts is hilarious.

Anyway, as to whether L-theanine is effective, the evidence is rather inconclusive. The real question is whether it works in your brain, which is highly atypical. So I suggest you personally try the stuff and find out for yourself.

Based on what exactly?

[Deadlokd]

Take your time. Chat logs can't be manufactured instantly.

[Qingdai]

I've seen relatively good data on helpful supplements for ADHD. I suspect, that since it is a spectrum of disorders, that different things work for different people at different stages in their life. That can make the data a bit wonky.
Some people also report that fatty acid supplements help ADHD symptoms.

http://ebm.bmj.com/content/10/6/181.extract

Oh, and my son was diagnosed with ADHD, sensory intergration disorder (sensory seeking) so this is relevant to my interests.

[Deadlokd]

Sorry Qingdai. That sucks for you guys and your son.

I got Ben Goldacre's book Bad Science for my birthday and he had a section on the fish oil trials in Durham County. The first one was run by the Council and the fish oil company and covered 3000 school age kids. The idea was to raise their test scores in line with the rest of the country. Unfortunately the trial not only wasn't properly conducted, no placebos, no blinds etc. but the kids didn't do any better on their scores. They actually got worse. Which was strange because the media attention of the country was on Durham County and that level of scrutiny should have lifted the dedication of teachers and students to at least have a marginal improvement. But no, mean scores went down.

The study you linked to seems to have been better run. Other studies, including a meta study, look promising.

[Qingdai]

Yeah, it sucks to be me, and hell is other people, but my kid is not that bad. He just has some non-typical behaviors.

If a company is behind a trial, one can almost bet the science will be bad. Hello tobacco industry!

[godfry n. glad]

I've been shifted over to interlibrary loans, and given the collection I work with, I've been interested to see the types of articles going out. Today, it was the prevention issue of Seminars in Oncology, and one of the lead articles was on plant materials. Chinese medicine, from the Aruya...whatever tradition of India, and other plant materials. Nice color pix that I had to specially scan for the .pdfs.

This is stuff I would have considered woo in my youth. I suspect some of it still is. Yet, somehow, I'm not surprised. It has always seemed to me that much of pharmacology has its basis in herbs and plants.

[godfry n. glad]

:dddp:

[wei yau]

Aww, you guys.

Stuff like this right here is why I love the FF and you FFuckers so much. Rapid response, with citations and a willingness to help each other.

Srsly, you guys. This kinda thing makes all that other nonsense like Sophia, trolls both foreign and domestic and even Crumb tolerable.

Thanks!

[fragment]

This is stuff I would have considered woo in my youth. I suspect some of it still is. Yet, somehow, I'm not surprised. It has always seemed to me that much of pharmacology has its basis in herbs and plants.
I have this pet theory that long-standing herbal traditions, even if based on completely nonsense theories about the body and disease, could nonetheless be effective databases relating symptoms to remedies, developed over many centuries of trial and error. Dunno if it any actually work like that, but the possibility is there.

[seebs]

Yeah, already taking some fish oil, just because it seems like it helps with some things and probably doesn't hurt.

We'll see. Thus far I'm liking it.

[Crumb]

...and even Crumb tolerable.
awww... :melts:

[Qingdai]

Fragment, that's the part that interests me most about Chinese medicine. Much of it is based on woo mumbo jumbo, but with 2,000 years of written records of clinical observation, there's quite a bit that works in the database.

A Compound Herbal Preparation (CHP) in the Treatment of Children With ADHD: A Randomized Controlled Trial (http://jad.sagepub.com/content/early/2010/03/12/1087054709356388)

Here's the whole data article here (PDF)
http://www.adhd-clarity.com/JAD%20Compound%20Herbal%20Preparation%20in%20the%20Treatment%20of%20Children%20with%20ADHD-1.pdf

[godfry n. glad]

Yeah, already taking some fish oil, just because it seems like it helps with some things and probably doesn't hurt.

We'll see. Thus far I'm liking it.

My housemate had a session of extremely low vitamin D, with some very unwelcome symptomology. After megadoses of D, which upset her stomach, the doctor put her on the ol' cod liver oil. It has done the trick.

Those of us who spend inordinate amounts of time in front of their computers...

:shiftier:

or, just don't spend much time in direct sunlight...

:shiftier:

should be augmenting their vitamin D.

:shakemilk:

[Gonzo]

or live where there is no sunlight for 70% of the year.

:shiftier:

[godfry n. glad]

or live where there is no sunlight for 70% of the year.

:shiftier:

Hey, neighbor!

:wave:

[Fencesitter]

seebs, do you mind updating how you're doing on the theanine?

Based on this thread, I decided to drink some green tea once or twice a day. I've been doing it for about two weeks now. I don't know if drinking it is enough to be of value, but I like green tea anyway.

I can't tell if it's making a difference, but since I like drinking it, I thought I'd continue for a while.

Have your positive effects continued?

[seebs]

It's really hard to be sure, but I think so. I have the (apparently stereotypical for aspies?) problem that basically any change you make to my brain will go away at least in part after a while because I adapt or something.

But... We've had all sorts of shit going on and I'm still at all functional, so I think it's helping.

[Deadlokd]

I never did get around to looking into the mechanism. Do you still want me to?

[seebs]

It would be fascinating! So yes.

[Deadlokd]

Cool, I'll do it this week.