In which I propose a Moral Panic about Eating Disorders

[lisarea]

This is a series of paintings that is going around the internet for the past week or so, and getting a lot of attention.

Before you look, they're paintings of women--sometimes naked, as a warning for all you lazy bums slacking off at work--mostly binge eating. They're really well done, and IMO, they're really disturbing, not least of which is because based on the comments in a lot of places, there are tons of women who really relate to them.

The Deconstruction of Indulgence (NFSW) » Sociological Images (http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/04/05/lee-price-and-the-deconstruction-of-indulgence-nfsw/)

It's disturbing, but I can't say that I'm surprised. I've long had the suspicion that eating disorders are rapidly becoming not just common, but the default, particularly for women. If you look at the way food is marketed to women, even apart from the really obviously vile diet commercials, it's really common for anything sweet or high fat to be described as decadent or indulgent or worse, as outright sinful or morbid in some way (like the hilariously named Death by Chocolate turds you see in shitty chain restaurants and stuff).

My favorite example, which I am p. sure I have complained about before, is that, a while ago, Frito Lay did this big promotion for some kind of awful dietetical chips and shit called A Woman's World. They had a website and some social networking shit and these commercials in which cartoon ladies acted out their comical eating disorders. There were some about like obsessive calorie counting and stupid denial jokes (like claiming that food you steal off someone else's plate has no calories), but my favorite one was where they had one who ate some ice cream or something, and then had to run on a treadmill for four hours because of it. Because hahahaha get it?!?!?! (http://www.something-fishy.org/whatarethey/exercise.php)

Happily, that website seems to have been allowed to lie fallow for a while. It's certainly not the only example, but it did stand apart by not being even a little bit subtle about overtly advocating eating disorders. (Ugh. Just thought to check, and they are on YouTube, if you want to see what I mean.)

I reckon it's partly just Puritanical moral panic, where people are judged morally deficient if they don't deprive themselves (and really, it does seem as though people are judged much more harshly for things like smoking and overeating than they are for doing things that are actually harmful to others).

But this particular thing seems to be getting worse, for women especially, but increasingly for men as well.

It does seem more common recently for people to assume everyone is on some kind of deprivation diet and that sweets and fatty foods are transgressions to be discussed only in hushed and conspiratorial tones.

But is it really? Does everyone have some painful and tortured relationship with food now? Is it common now for grown-assed women to hide boxes of donuts in their bathrooms and eat them in secret like they're naughty children who are going to get in trouble somehow with someone?

I think I mentioned before probably that someone of my acquaintance was an eating disorder recruiter, who would follow me around and, like, narrate anything I would eat. Like, "Oh, is that a regular serving size? How many calories is that? What is the fat content?" but I was like, "The shit I know. I'm not on a diet, and I don't really pay attention." I can't even fathom giving a shit beyond sheer annoyance and a kind of detached horror that she was so fucked up and so apparently lacking in self awareness.

But obviously, it does work on a lot of people. Obviously, some people actually are ashamed of something so totally none of anyone else's business.

[Demimonde]

Fucking hell, I just watched some of those videos and they are completely disgusting. Made by "Flat Earth" is right.

[Ymir's blood]

I saw those images the other day. The idea sort of went over my head but my food attitude is rather odd, rather like many things.

I reckon it's partly just Puritanical moral panic, where people are judged morally deficient if they don't deprive themselves (and really, it does seem as though people are judged much more harshly for things like smoking and overeating than they are for doing things that are actually harmful to others). I think a lot of that has to do with people in indulge in such behaviors being deemed socially acceptable targets. So if a person who doesn't engage in them encounters one who does, they feel that it's safe to unleash whatever bile they have stored up against said 'offender.' The same thing happens with more destructive behaviors, but in this case it is more noticeable because the offense can't be said to actually merit the response. In the case of actual criminal behavior, the nature of the offense masks the level of the response. The source is the same, people's latent anger or pent up frustrations, but unleashing it against a criminal doesn't seem out of place.

[LadyShea]

When I had a psychiatric evaluation for organ donation, the shrink seemed unable to wrap his mind around the fact that I have never had an eating disorder, nor used disorder type behaviors temporarily to lose weight (had never fasted, or purged). I assumed it was because he practiced in Beverly Hills, and def think it is the default in some parts of society.

ETA: Also, there is so much fucking wrong with the world, yet we have all these conveniences and media, it's like we are just so completely detached from everything we evolved for, and that we just get all fucking dysfunctional. We don't have to grow food or chop wood or dig wells or weave cloth to ensure we have the basic necessities. Where I live, now like 60% of the people I see are obese, and eat deep fried Twinkies and their kids are fat, and their grocery carts are filled with crap. Where I came from, out West, everyone was stick figures and bleached blond or bought Humvees and stuff. I dunno what that all means, but it sucks.

[lisarea]

I don't think it's just Beverly Hills. I get various subtle clues about that kind of thing all the time here in Colorado too. Just little things usually, like how at restaurants they always give me Matlock's diet soda, or when he was getting out of the hospital and they told us he'd have to weigh himself regularly for a while, I said I'd have to stop on buy one and the nurse was all like, "You go, girl!" Like it was some big intentional act or something rather than just some thing I hadn't thought of. And also, why not "You go, boy"? He didn't have a working scale either.

But also the only reason I even recognized what those paintings were was that more than a few times, I've had other women who did that kind of thing assume I did too, like as a bonding thing. Talking about how we all secretly binge, or about feeling guilty and ashamed of what they eat, and assuming I did the same. Or even just 'helpfully' pointing out if I was about to eat something they thought was naughty or something.

But yeah, I do understand why food is an issue in general in our society. Cheap, filling, immediately gratifying food is readily available, even at poverty wages; and when you're poor and hopeless, instant physical gratification is a pretty compelling thing. You've got to have a fair amount of privilege to think about long term goals and delay gratification, and being thin really is gratification for a lot of people.

There's a very middle+ class ethos involved in the whole deprivation as morality notion, and we don't much talk about that. But the fact is, if you're actually food insecure, and you've got some limited amount of money to fill your belly, you're in survival mode, and you will go for the thing that's going to sate you right now because you're really not comfortable thinking much beyond that. I can't begrudge people who maybe don't get much enjoyment out of anything for going for whatever cheap, unhealthy option makes them feel best right now. (It is a little more grave when they bring kids into it, of course.)

Eating disorders seem to be largely a bourgie thing. And most of the propaganda targeting the "obesity epidemic" (it's not an epidemic) just ends up as a justification for some kind of ridiculous Puritanical moral panic class war, and one more excuse for people to run around policing not only themselves, but others. I really don't think disordered eating would be anywhere near this prevalent if there weren't this huge moral crusade going on right now.

[wildernesse]

There's a very middle+ class ethos involved in the whole deprivation as morality notion, and we don't much talk about that.

Do you think you are better than everyone else or what? There's a finite amount of misery in the world, and you have to carry your load or it's not fair to the rest of us!

Or something like that.

[Ymir's blood]

I'm pretty sure that if anything is infinite, it would be misery.

[Qingdai]

Yeah, I used to like to smoke, drink beer and read while listening to music in the bath, that freaked out my housemates. :boh: It was nice though.

You people can't handle the decadence!
:drillsgt:

They also got mad at me for being insensitive when the first "movie of the week" (this was 1986) came out about bulimia came out and I laughed when they played the theme to Jaws when the mom ate an entire birthday cake, but come on! Theme to Jaws? WTF?

[Gonzo]

I'm pretty sure that if anything is infinite, it would be misery.

. . . . . . . .We can't all, and some of us don't. That's all there is.
http://newideas.net/images/adhd_depressed_100x100.jpg

[ITSOZAZ]

holy hype. i work in an industry where there are obviously women who do it and those ladies need help. the rest you don't notice, so they must be doing it right.

then again...this is canada. we aren't as image obsessed, at least not in that way. i mean we like our beautiful people, but we like being boring, too. america is a pretty fucked up place of extremes, so maybe it is bad down there.

[Ensign Steve]

Oh, yay! It's one of those topics that's all relevant to my interests and then I get all sharey and candid and shit.

There are eating disorders and then there are eating disorders. Plenty of people at Weight Watchers (of which I am a member) claim an eating disorder, including myself in the past. But like with most (all?) psychological diagnoses, there is a spectrum. One binge-purge does not make one a bulimic any more than one blackout makes someone an alcoholic. Neither are those healthy behaviors, but the bourgie EDs don't need treatment (unless they want it) any more than people with "social anxiety" need treatment. It's only a problem if it's a problem for the person who has it, otherwise everyone should mind their own business and quit worrying about what other adults choose to do with their bodies.

Unless I want to be obese (I don't), I need to restrict my calories and exercise a lot. That's how my body works. I know there exist people with normal, functioning bodies and minds that keep their body at a healthy state by eating when they're hungry and stopping when they're done, but I'm not one of them. And I know there are plenty of people like me, men and women, and we are the people that that shit is marketed toward. The perpetual dieters and exercisers. And since I'm obsessive and list-makey about every aspect of my life, I'm obsessive and list-makey about my food and exercise. And sometimes I get so fed up with the list-making and calorie-restricting that I sit in the dark and eat a box of donuts and cry. The next day I brush off the crumbs and start fresh.

That doesn't mean I have a disorder! :cryhome:

Only a qualified health professional can make the diagnosis of an eating disorder. Unfortunately, there are many people who fear having an eating disorder when they do not (e.g., having an occasional episode of overeating does not constitute a binge nor does it make one a binge eater). In fact, the estimated frequency of eating disorders is small. Approximately 0.6 percent of people have anorexia nervosa and 1 percent have bulimia nervosa in the United States 3, with comparable numbers seen in the United Kingdom and Australia.

While reducing excess fat from obesity can be accomplished with a comprehensive weight-loss program, the treatment of medically diagnosed eating disorders requires more intensive treatment by qualified health care professionals.

Weight Watchers Approach:

Weight Watchers is not a medical organization and cannot meet the needs of those with eating disorders. For this reason, those with a current medical diagnosis of an eating disorder are not eligible for membership in the Weight Watchers program.

Eating Disorders (http://www.weightwatchers.com/util/art/index_art.aspx?art_id=42281&tabnum=1&sc=802)

[yguy]

Anybody ever heard of wild animals with eating disorders? Anybody ever seen an obese deer or an anorexic bear?

[Watser?]

Yay, let's all shit in the woods and fuck bears.

[Ymir's blood]

The bears are a happy couple, thank you.

[lisarea]

I don't mean to imply that people who have weird eating things like that have a diagnosable illness or anything, just that the behaviors themselves are messed up.

And I can see the societal pressure to adopt the mindsets behind those habits, too. Just going around minding my own damned business, people make all those weird casual assumptions that normalize those behaviors.

When people talk to me like that, I'm kind of immune, but for a kid or for someone who is insecure and takes things personally, that kind of thing could be pretty influential. And commercials like those horrible chips ones normalize and model some pretty fucked up behaviors. That was a pretty big national ad campaign that advanced the notion that it is normal and even funny that women have eating disorders.

Also, I have an almost completely uninformed theory that all this fucking about with dietetic substitutes other things that are not normal foods fucks about with our brains and makes us less capable of sending and receiving information about the types of food to eat.

So, if when you get a hankering for cake or pie or something, you instead eat some nasty yogurt full of artificial sweeteners intended to mimic the thing you actually want, your feedback system just goes all cattywampus, and you still don't get your cake or pie and the hankering just keeps getting worse until you do and you end up sitting naked in the dark eating the whole pie. (And one of the few non-spoiled foods I've eaten that was so disgusting I almost had to spit it out was when I accidentally got one of those diet yogurts like that. It was VILE. It was not food, it was just pure stinking fuckery. I was and remain actually angry about that horrible yogurt.)

And if it's the default for at least women, and probably soon men too to have such complicated and hostile attitudes about food that they spend all their time denying their urges and eating instead these sad stupid and horrible things, I guess it wouldn't surprise me if, effectively, most people had broken regulatory systems, and really did have to struggle their whole lives just to eat the way they need to.

[Qingdai]

Proving that if one looks at the innerwebs umbilicus enough, you kind find some thing that will rile up lisarea all nice rile like.
Daisy Razor: Children's Merchandising Has Always Been Ridiculous (http://daisyrazor.blogspot.com/2011/04/childrens-merchandising-has-always-been.html)

Shitty books about eating in the bathroom and "choose your own adventure.

[Gonzo]

It's only a problem if it's a problem for the person who has it, otherwise everyone should mind their own business and quit worrying about what other adults choose to do with their bodies.


Yes, this:

Just going around minding my own damned business, people make all those weird casual assumptions that normalize those behaviors.


A close friend of mine thinks that he is supposed to conform to some sort of muscley beauty standard that is up to par to all those weight lifting Boflex commercials and will starve himself for a few days at a time or 'fast' as he calls it.

So he tells me, and probalay everyone else he knows, about it and how out of shape he feels and how he has the need not to eat and shit. I know he doesn't qualify as anorexic and it's a very serious disorder that shouldn't be thrown around like it can be applied to everyone with a weight concern who isn't actually diagnosed, but I for the most part keep my mouth shut and nod my head or try to tell him he looks fine. So how should someone react to that kind of thing? If I were to mind my own business I would be letting a friend harm himself and, also, isn't a small weight problem a predecessor to a larger one?

So do I tell him that not eating will making him lose all his muscles, anyway, or just tell him he's a superficial jerkhead? :chin:

[mickthinks]

I'm not sure what this thread is supposed to be about; lisarea's posts are pretty incoherent rambles about how confusing the media's messages are, how eating disorders aren't real disorders, except when they are, and it's all just another middle class
plot to screw the poor. But I'll offer a possible answer to this question ...
Does everyone have some painful and tortured relationship with food now?
I think people have always had an uneasy relationship with their appetites. What's comparatively new is the idea that it must be someone else's fault if you over-indulge and feel guilty.

[Ensign Steve]

Intermittent fasting is all the rage right now on the weight-lifting boards and I think it's dumb. I ignore it because IMO, like every fad of the week, it will be either ineffective at getting the desired results or it won't be sustainable, or both. Nobody is going to make themselves sick or anorexic just by trying some stupid fad. Sure it's unhealthy but nearly everybody does unhealthy shit (smoking, eating processed or fast food) and it's not up to us to police each other. If someone is working out and paying attention at all to what they are eating they're way ahead of the game compared to most people. We're lucky that we live in a time and place that we have food to eat every day and that skipping eating for a couple of days is considered an extreme and unhealthy behavior and not just something that happens when food isn't available.

[lisarea]

A close friend of mine thinks that he is supposed to conform to some sort of muscley beauty standard that is up to par to all those weight lifting Boflex commercials and will starve himself for a few days at a time or 'fast' as he calls it.

So he tells me, and probalay everyone else he knows, about it and how out of shape he feels and how he has the need not to eat and shit. I know he doesn't qualify as anorexic and it's a very serious disorder that shouldn't be thrown around like it can be applied to everyone with a weight concern who isn't actually diagnosed, but I for the most part keep my mouth shut and nod my head or try to tell him he looks fine. So how should someone react to that kind of thing? If I were to mind my own business I would be letting a friend harm himself and, also, isn't a small weight problem a predecessor to a larger one?

So do I tell him that not eating will making him lose all his muscles, anyway, or just tell him he's a superficial jerkhead? :chin:

That's not at all what I'm talking about with busybodies. I'm talking about strangers and casual acquaintances policing you when you're eating or buying food, or giving you unsolicited advice, whether it's weight loss tips or "eat a sammich." I'm thinking maybe it doesn't make sense because that doesn't happen to dudes very much.

But friends do get in each other's business. They're supposed to. It's their job.

Maybe if he told you to stop bothering him and you kept bringing it up, but not for mentioning it to him in the first place, and not even for calling him on it whenever he talks like that.

[Gonzo]

I thought it was a thread about being messed-up about eating in general, but that helps. :thankee:

[lisarea]

No I'm just saying that I don't think you'd be out of line for saying something to your friend. That's not the kind of thing I was complaining about before! I do think you should say something to him. I don't know what or how, but you are not a bad annoying person for that.

You are only a bad and annoying person because we are Internet Enemies.

[LadyShea]

I have met some body builder types who had behaviors and body image issues almost identical to those found in anorexics...they are too small though instead of too large. Similar psychological processes are at work. I also think there are commonalities with addiction/dependency.

[ITSOZAZ]

4 words: 2 girls 1 cup

[lisarea]

I have met some body builder types who had behaviors and body image issues are almost identical to those found in anorexics...they are too small though instead of too large. Similar psychological processes are at work. I also think there are commonalities with addiction/dependency.

There is a really broad range of eating disorders, and anorexia is only one manifestation. It's probably the most commonly fatal or debilitating one, so it gets more attention. In fact, I was reading something a while back I forget where that it one really difficult thing about recovering from anorexia is that everyone is always reinforcing disordered behaviors by snarking and obsessing and stuff.

But yeah, apart from actual anorexia, there are a whole bunch of different recognized disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_disorder#Classification). Apparently, the "Eating Disorder Not Otherwise Specified" one is really common because it covers a range of manifestations. For my purposes, I'd describe any serious anxiety about food beyond food insecurity as being disordered, including compulsive eating, overly picky eating, obsessive behaviors and fixations, things like that.

And I know that means that the majority of adults in the US are disordered, which is exactly what I'm saying. It is normal now, and that's fucked the fuck up.

[LadyShea]

I was mostly speaking to the body image issue, the disconnect between the actuality and the perception. That type of dysmorphia is most pronounced in anorexics. Even when they are skin covered skeletons they still see themselves as fat.

A few of the body builders I met that admitted to using steroids see themselves as too small, and they want to put on mass.

[The Lone Ranger]

A few of the body builders I met that admitted to using steroids see themselves as too small, and they want to put on mass.

It's a real disorder; it's called muscle dysmorphia. Just as an anorexic sees him/herself as too fat, someone with muscle dysmorphia sees him/herself as too skinny and in need of more muscle mass. It's one of the few eating-related disorders that's more common in men than in women.


Cheers,

Michael

[LadyShea]

LOL I made an observation that actually had been identified and named? I feel quite scientisity

And here it is on the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_dysmorphia)

[Ensign Steve]

There is a really broad range of eating disorders, and anorexia is only one manifestation. It's probably the most commonly fatal or debilitating one, so it gets more attention. In fact, I was reading something a while back I forget where that it one really difficult thing about recovering from anorexia is that everyone is always reinforcing disordered behaviors by snarking and obsessing and stuff.

But yeah, apart from actual anorexia, there are a whole bunch of different recognized disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_disorder#Classification). Apparently, the "Eating Disorder Not Otherwise Specified" one is really common because it covers a range of manifestations. For my purposes, I'd describe any serious anxiety about food beyond food insecurity as being disordered, including compulsive eating, overly picky eating, obsessive behaviors and fixations, things like that.

And I know that means that the majority of adults in the US are disordered, which is exactly what I'm saying. It is normal now, and that's fucked the fuck up.

No, it's not fucked up. It is normal. What you call "disordered eating" I call "just trying to fuel my body day in and day out in a healthy, sustainable way". People have very personal relationships with food, and with good cause. We have to fuel our bodies, it's not a choice, and we have decide for ourselves how best to do so. No one person has the right answer to the right way to do that. Some people's ways are going to be different than others, but that doesn't make it disordered. If someone does eats vegan or kosher or some other kind of ethical way, that's also an extreme way to eat, but is anyone calling that a disorder? Religion, ethics, health, appearance, these are all individual things and everybody is going to come to their own way. I don't see where you can make these distinctions between normal, abnormal, ordered, disordered.

Again, I refer to social anxiety or introversion. Busybodies on the outside are like, "Oh, look at that poor, shy girl. Reading a book alone when she could be playing with friends. She has a disorder!" Just because shrinks can give it a legitimate-sounding set of initials that doesn't even say anything specific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDNOS) doesn't mean it's something that needs to be fixed or treated. Unless the person is asking for help, it's nobody's business what disorder they have.

And the television commercials aren't making anybody sick or normalizing anything. They are taking something that is already normal (people have weird issues with food, that's normal) and exaggerating it and playing it up to make some sales. Is it manipulative and exploitative? Indeed. It's advertising.

[Ensign Steve]

Oh, also, I imagine over diagnosing eating disorders (just like over-diagnosing any psychological disorder) probably doesn't do anything to help the people who are actually sick, because it seriously plays down the gravity of their own illness to the level of, "oh, yeah, I totally have that, too."

[Crumb]

:popcorn:

[Adam]

Splurging on some popcorn, eh, Crumbles? Naughty!

[Ensign Steve]

It's okay as long as he throws it back up when he's done.

[Demimonde]

And the extra butter will make that easier!

[lisarea]

No, it's not fucked up. It is normal.

You're right that normal was a bad word choice. It is apparently normal, but it is still fucked up.

Binge eating is not a healthy or a desirable behavior. That doesn't mean that everyone who does it ever should be diagnosed with a disorder, though. It means that the prevalence of the behavior, which is endemic to a lot of first world cultures, is a societal ill and needs to be recognized as such.

The same goes for other types of disordered eating, including people with extremely limited diets for psychological reasons (as opposed to medical or ethical ones), people who are consistently and overly obsessive about calorie and nutritional content, and anyone who regularly engages in food related behaviors that put them at real medical or psychological risk.

I think the point you're misinterpreting has to do with the difference between a societal issue and an individual one. People don't need to pathologize other people or get all up in their shit. In fact, I think that's a big part of the problem in the first place, the constant policing to the point that it's considered acceptable and normal to comment on and make assumptions about other people's eating habits.

But the fact that disordered eating is so prevalent, particularly in certain cultures, is a problem that should be recognized as a societal problem without singling out individuals. Sort of like obesity. People are nosy, meddling assholes, so they take the fact that there are increasing levels of obesity as an excuse to harass and discriminate against individuals they diagnose out in the wild. That's not OK. That's shitty and stupid, and it's one of the big reasons I sometimes wish that the general public did not have access to statistical data, because most of them don't understand it.


And the television commercials aren't making anybody sick or normalizing anything. They are taking something that is already normal (people have weird issues with food, that's normal) and exaggerating it and playing it up to make some sales. Is it manipulative and exploitative? Indeed. It's advertising.

They're obviously a reflection of prevalent attitudes, but they're dangerous attitudes, and treating them as some kind of universal, and making little jokes about them like that does normalize them further.

I don't see that ad campaign all that differently than if it were making jokes about cutting or any other self-destructive behavior.

You don't have to condemn people who engage in destructive behaviors, because pretty much everyone does to some extent or another. But that doesn't mean you can't condemn the behaviors themselves and the aspects of the culture that exacerbate them.

[Adam]

In fact, I think that's a big part of the problem in the first place, the constant policing to the point that it's considered acceptable and normal to comment on and make assumptions about other people's eating habits.

I'm not an anthropologist, but I would be willing to bet that historically, policing other people's eating habits has been considered normal and acceptable more often than not. In pretty much every society that isn't today's developed world, the norm has been some level of food insecurity, and that naturally entails being concerned with what's happening to the available supply of food. I'd argue that at least part of the problem you're talking about is simply people having no intuitive notion of how to deal with extremely abundant food.

[lisarea]

I'm not an anthropologist, but I would be willing to bet that historically, policing other people's eating habits has been considered normal and acceptable more often than not. In pretty much every society that isn't today's developed world, the norm has been some level of food insecurity, and that naturally entails being concerned with what's happening to the available supply of food. I'd argue that at least part of the problem you're talking about is simply people having no intuitive notion of how to deal with extremely abundant food.

That is probably pretty true, but now I am going to play the lady card and say that you don't even know what I'm talking about.

It's not just people remarking on remarkable things, like eating a whole pizza or taking all the shrimp at a buffet.

I think this doesn't happen to dudes or doesn't happen often, but I'm talking about total strangers, polite acquaintances, friends and family who remark to people with unremarkable body types on unremarkable food choices, like if you're eating even some normal thing, whether it's a salad or ice cream or something, do people make unsolicited comments or assumptions about your motivations for doing so? Do they tell you to eat more or less, or do they comment or strongly imply that you are being 'good' or 'bad' or something?

That is a thing that happens a lot. I'm not going to say it happens to all ladies, but in my personal experience, it's pretty common.

Here are two commercials for the same thing, part of the same ad campaign with the same marketing message, explicitly gendered:

YouTube - Applebee's - Manly Man

YouTube - Under 550 Calories - Cutbacks

That's obviously exaggerated and focused on selling a sort of diet product to different demographics, but it is indicative of some of the very different attitudes and assumptions common for men vs. women, and that double standard does carry out in real life, so that men's vs. women's life experiences are very, very different.

[Adam]

Oh, I'm not disputing that there are different attitudes and assumptions for men versus women. I'm just saying that I think the widespread assumption that what other people eat is my business isn't all that surprising when you take into consideration that, for most of human history, what the people around me eat has had a direct effect on what's available for me to eat, and that people probably still intuitively make assumptions based on that sort of situation. I'm not even talking about crazy things like eating a whole pizza or whatever. Even preferring a standard-sized meal composed of an unusually proportioned mix of available foodstuffs is going to have an impact on what's available for others when food supplies are limited.

Personally, I ate very little meat, and no red meat at all, for most of my 20's, and I frequently found myself fielding questions about why I was eating salad (answer: because I fucking like salad), why didn't I like meat, was I a vegetarian, etc., not to mention the probably 50/50 odds of wait people giving my meal to the wrong person if I happened to be eating with a woman in a restaurant. I don't get much of that anymore, probably because I'm now old enough that the normal thing for me to be doing at meals is trying to avoid having a heart attack.

[wildernesse]

Just little things usually, like how at restaurants they always give me Matlock's diet soda....

One thing that annoys me is when I am brought a diet soda when RA and I go out, and NO ONE ordered a diet soda.

haha random old post replying. I'm taking lessons.

[Ensign Steve]

I can dig the bulk of what you are saying, but there's still one thing I want to get across. I think that there are still a few behaviors that you consider disordered that I think are no cause for alarm (or Moral Panic, if you will) and are in fact perfectly healthy.

The same goes for other types of disordered eating, including people with extremely limited diets for psychological reasons (as opposed to medical or ethical ones), people who are consistently and overly obsessive about calorie and nutritional content, and anyone who regularly engages in food related behaviors that put them at real medical or psychological risk.

What does it take to be consistently and overly obsessive about calorie content? If you are counting calories, that means counting every calorie you eat. I don't know how much more thorough you can be, so is accurate calorie-counting a disordered behavior in itself? Do you mean worrying about the calories other people are eating? Because I think that's still just generalized busybodiness and doesn't necessarily indicate an internal disorder.

How is obsessing over calorie content more disordered than looking up recipes all day, keeping a kosher kitchen, eating vegan, photographing your food, growing your own food, obsessing over what's sustainable or what's grass-fed or whether it was packaged in BPA-free plastic? People are fucking obsessed with food, which is fair since we have to consume it several times a day.

If you're counting calories-in, calories-out, that means you can eat more calories in on a day where you exercised a lot. So one day you'll indulge in something decadent (something actually decadent, not a donut-flavored yogurt, because we're humans and we like delicious, well-made things) and then work it off with an hour of intense cardio, which, if you are conditioned for it, is extremely good for you in and of itself. Seriously, correct me if my lens is this fucked up, but I honestly can't find anything wrong with that. Of course if you take that to the extreme, it is unhealthy, I understand, and that is an legitimate disorder. But the underlying behavior is the opposite of unhealthy, IMO. It's not a mini-disorder or a gateway-disorder or the top of some slippery slope. It's actually a pretty moderate way to live.

So you (I keep saying you, I obviously mean me, but that's boring) are doing pretty well, day in, day out, counting your calories, enjoying decadent food in moderation, healthy weight, good physical condition from exercising, and you're just not in the mood to think about the next meal or the next mile. You don't feel like running for the third time that week, you just really want a fucking box of donuts. You probably have PMS. You skip the run, you eat the donuts, you feel better for a little while and then probably worse, and you move on. It's relatable. It sells donut-flavored yogurt. If this is a disorder, it's the biggest first-world disorder on the planet. What's unhealthy about it?

Is it the shame? The hiding? I imagine a vegetarian or a kosher person has a slip every once in a while. Do they do it in secret? Do they feel guilt about it? Is this also disordered behavior? If someone has come to some sort of conclusion of how they choose to eat based on their own values, then that is some standard that they hold themselves to. Nobody's perfect all the time (and if they were they'd probably be totally obsessive about it), so they are going to fail to live up to their own standard for themselves. It doesn't require some external person shaming them for their indulgence, and it doesn't require a disorder.

I think that people actually paying attention to what they are putting into their bodies is on the whole a good thing, even if they never get it quite right and even if it makes them just a little bit crazy.

PS: All questions are rhetorical, that's just lazy writing on my part.

[Ensign Steve]

Oh, also, I'm about to go watch The Biggest Loser which is like my favorite show if you want to have something to really fight about!

:sisfight:

Just kidding, I don't want to fight about The Biggest Loser. :surrendermonkey:

[Qingdai]

Two points, as a former anthropologist-in-training, food was a big part of culture, thus the different religious and/or ethnic diets. Now that we are all individuals (except me), it's more personalized thing, although we still have the cultural baggage that says we should be eating the same things at the same time, so that's a cultural disorder.

Second thing, once some obsession starts negatively affecting your life so as you can't function in a culture is when something begins to become a disorder.

So it's a very gray area, a specialized diet for whatever reason, doesn't mean you are going to function very well in all cultures/environments, doesn't necessarily mean you are sick, but there is something to the idea of our culture being dysfunctional about food in general, mostly the artificial excess. Why do we have too much food in a city, for example, when don't grow any of it? Why is there hunger when farmers have to grow cash crops? And so on.

[lisarea]

What does it take to be consistently and overly obsessive about calorie content? If you are counting calories, that means counting every calorie you eat. I don't know how much more thorough you can be, so is accurate calorie-counting a disordered behavior in itself? Do you mean worrying about the calories other people are eating? Because I think that's still just generalized busybodiness and doesn't necessarily indicate an internal disorder.

Yes, I mean mostly things like counting calories of what other people eat, because I wouldn't even notice if they weren't doing that because I don't pay attention to that stuff unless someone is being aggressive about it. But I definitely get the impression that some people do that because they cannot not think about it, and not just because they're nags and busybodies. (And JUST NOW it occurred to me that there's some kind of dieting thread here, and I am not talking about that because I have never read it, and I don't mean that anyone who ever counts calories is being disordered.)

I'd probably include obsessively counting fat and calories when you don't have a medical reason to and have never been overweight, or not being able to give yourself any slack even in moderation.


How is obsessing over calorie content more disordered than looking up recipes all day, keeping a kosher kitchen, eating vegan, photographing your food, growing your own food, obsessing over what's sustainable or what's grass-fed or whether it was packaged in BPA-free plastic? People are fucking obsessed with food, which is fair since we have to consume it several times a day.

If you're counting calories-in, calories-out, that means you can eat more calories in on a day where you exercised a lot. So one day you'll indulge in something decadent (something actually decadent, not a donut-flavored yogurt, because we're humans and we like delicious, well-made things) and then work it off with an hour of intense cardio, which, if you are conditioned for it, is extremely good for you in and of itself.

OK, but I fucking hate the word decadent for food.

It's morbid. It means something that is in a state of decay, and metaphorically, it is a really Puritanical way to think about something as benign as a donut. That's exactly what I mean by moral panic. There is nothing decadent about chocolate or donuts. They aren't deadly or amoral, and there's nothing inherently naughty about eating them unless they belong to someone else, or unless you eat them in front of someone who is literally starving to death or something.

Eating veal and foie gras might be decadent, because you choose to put your own pleasure above the unusually cruel methods of production. You could argue that any animal products are decadent, even. But calling foods decadent just because they're high fat or high calorie introduces this weird morality where simply eating something for pleasure, even if there's no harm to anyone besides yourself, putatively even, is some kind of social transgression.

That is the real main thing. What you eat is no different from other stuff you do with your own body, and the only people who have any vested interest in that are your immediate family, the people who would grieve for you, or have to wipe your ass when you can't do it yourself. There's a lot of moral policing about most of that stuff, though, so I can't find an analogy that makes sense easily. People actually do care about all kinds of different stuff you put in your body, from pills to smoke to cock, and they do judge you slatternly if they think you put too much or the wrong kind of any of that in you. But it's not their business. It's not society's business, as long as you're not hurting anyone else, and it is not a moral failing. It is not decadent or even naughty, and it's sure as hell not a character flaw on the level of being an asshole or throwing trash on the streets or even driving more than necessary, but people all too often treat it as though it's worse.

Seriously, correct me if my lens is this fucked up, but I honestly can't find anything wrong with that. Of course if you take that to the extreme, it is unhealthy, I understand, and that is an legitimate disorder. But the underlying behavior is the opposite of unhealthy, IMO. It's not a mini-disorder or a gateway-disorder or the top of some slippery slope. It's actually a pretty moderate way to live.

This might seem like putting too fine a point on it, but I'm saying that our social mores are fucked up, not everyone who navigates them. Yes, I really do think that if you feel more guilty about eating a box of donuts than you do about, say, driving too much or buying sweatshop stuff or whatever (decadent!), that's a little twisted, but it is not so much a personal failing as it is a cultural one. It's fucked up that people are judged more harshly for perceived failures in personal care than they are for actually doing harm to others.


Is it the shame? The hiding? I imagine a vegetarian or a kosher person has a slip every once in a while. Do they do it in secret? Do they feel guilt about it? Is this also disordered behavior? If someone has come to some sort of conclusion of how they choose to eat based on their own values, then that is some standard that they hold themselves to. Nobody's perfect all the time (and if they were they'd probably be totally obsessive about it), so they are going to fail to live up to their own standard for themselves. It doesn't require some external person shaming them for their indulgence, and it doesn't require a disorder.

Someone who is vegetarian or kosher, though, sees a slip as, respectively, actually doing harm to others, or a severe moral failing against their god. I was vegetarian for about six years when I got an overwhelming craving for CHILI DOGS. So I went through a drive through, got some chili dogs, and ate them in the parking lot. I was kind of hiding, but as I was, I thought, "Oh, man, who even cares besides me?" I maybe would have apologized or felt bad around a pig or the cow, but nobody else I knew had any standing to judge me, so I told people just to freak them out.

Also pro-tip: If you haven't eaten meat in six years, do not eat two nasty chili dogs really fast in a parking lot.

[lisarea]

Oh, also, I'm about to go watch The Biggest Loser which is like my favorite show if you want to have something to really fight about!

:sisfight:

Just kidding, I don't want to fight about The Biggest Loser. :surrendermonkey:

Yeah, I would totally have to go find that stuff about them being dehydrated and pissing blood and stuff, and I don't want to.

[beyelzu]

It's morbid. It means something that is in a state of decay, and metaphorically, it is a really Puritanical way to think about something as benign as a donut. That's exactly what I mean by moral panic. There is nothing decadent about chocolate or donuts. They aren't deadly or amoral, and there's nothing inherently naughty about eating them unless they belong to someone else, or unless you eat them in front of someone who is literally starving to death or something.

Eating veal and foie gras might be decadent, because you choose to put your own pleasure above the unusually cruel methods of production. You could argue that any animal products are decadent, even. But calling foods decadent just because they're high fat or high calorie introduces this weird morality where simply eating something for pleasure, even if there's no harm to anyone besides yourself, putatively even, is some kind of social transgression.






Decadent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decadent)

3 : characterized by or appealing to self-indulgence

And even if that definition were not in a dictionary, I would not think that people who say decadent really mean the first couple of definitions. Now you can riff on puritans and selfdenial or whatever, but speaking for myself and probably millions of other fatfucks, eating chocolate cake is really self indulgent

[Ensign Steve]

Yeah, "decadent" for me is just a short-hand word for something that is high in calories/fat, but in a good way, like a delicious french pastry or something (as opposed to a pop-tart). I consider it a very positive word, like its a compliment about the food, it's not a "bad" food or something I should feel guilty about. Same thing with "indulge" as opposed to binge. If I messed up the vocab, that's entirely due to my failing of knowing the precise definition of the word, not because of some disordered emotion I have attached to the food itself.

Even Cookie Monster understands that cookies are "sometimes foods" and that other foods are good to eat every day for fuel and nutrition, and there's a difference. Donuts are not benign for obese people.

[Watser?]

Just kidding, I don't want to fight about The Biggest Loser. :surrendermonkey:

:glare:!

[Chris Porter]

I just watched Babbette's Feast last night, and it's totally appropriate for this thread, even though it was a Danish period piece set in the late 1800s. It was about moral panic over food, in this case, religious horror at 'decadent' food. Well, it was more about "lives that were, but could have been" told in a very straightforward way, but also it hinged around how we think about the things we do, and the things we think others do-of which the latter part is the most at issue in the moral panic over consumption of worldly things.

Anyway, good film. Seems like moral panic over eating habits of others is a long-standing habit in itself.

[ChuckF]

Ok I kind of skimmed the OP and just scrolled past the long hysterical bulimia v. anorexia ladyfight, so I'll just take that as read. ANYWAY I have this bit to add. Around last June or so I realized that I was fat because I was lazy and ate horribly. So I started exercising and eating things like vegetables. Over the next six or seven months I got into shape and I guess I lost about 40-50 pounds, back down to being pretty thin. I thought this was no big deal and it was pretty easy for me because genetics is on my side. I basically just ran and paid attention to what I ate. It has never stopped me from eating a big greasy burger if I wanted one. And in the end I had an excuse to update my wardrobe and I felt better about myself, so I figured this was a win.

I found that people who saw me only occasionally tended to notice my weight loss, which is fine. But some of them - many, even - also kind of really obviously worried about it, as though I must have used some kind of horribly unhealthy way to lose weight. Like people who are not even that close to me would lean in and ask "are you sure you get enough protein?" and I finally had to yell at my dad for giving me shit for being thin, even though he was one of the skinniest fuckers around when he was my age. I went from being fairly plump to being a pretty thin but healthy weight and people would act like I had just stumbled out of some extreme starvation prison camp experiment or something. One of my law school friends would frown and comment when I ordered a salad or steamed vegetables with dinner instead of fries, and be all "I don't think you eat enough!" Well fuck you. That was really really annoying.

Is this even what this thread is about?

Also lol you're all so fat.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/ChuckF/trolldance3.gif

[lisarea]

I guess I lost about 40-50 pounds

Jesus fucking shit, you're like 5'2"! Did you double your body weight or something?

That's just nasty, Chuck. I mean, I'm sorry, but it is.

[Qingdai]

I'm kind of skinny and people feel the obligation to comment on my weight and what I'm eating to the extent they also feel they need to bring it up to my husband at times.

[ChuckF]

lol I'm 5'10". I went from ~175-180ish to 135ish. I don't know my precise weight right at this moment because I won't do my laxative/enema/vomiting/hair pulling/cutting ritual until 9:30 p.m., at which time I will weigh myself and maybe finally I will be pretty. WAIT I DO NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF TO YOU FATS ANYMORE

[Ymir's blood]

I dropped from 235 to 155 lbs in the late Nineties using my sooper sekrit weight loss technique and people started that stuff with me as well.

[Ensign Steve]

Okay, I don't know if you're all joking but if not I'm dying to see some before pictures. Just kidding, but seriously I always assumed you two were skinny without trying, as if I was the only person on the planet who figured out the secret to weight management.

[ChuckF]

I always assumed [you] were skinny without trying
Only in the hands.

Maybe one day in chat I will show you some before pics, of when I was moar liek ChunkF. But no cockshots! (j/k of course there will be cockshots)

[erimir]

But isn't ChunkF also the theoretical amalgamation of ChuckF and Chunks?

Also lol I am skinny without trying. My weight went up to around 138 when I was living with my parents for a year or so, but it is now back to below 130 as it was when I was an undergrad.

That means I win, right?

[Ensign Steve]

I'm pretty sure that means you are anorexic. So, yes! You win! :irwinnar:

[erimir]

Don't be silly, anorexia takes work.

[ChuckF]

It's true, he is skinny but also very lazy.

[lisarea]

I knew a guy who lost like a LOT of weight once--I am bad at estimating weights and stuff, but he went from being beach ball shaped to being hot dude shaped really quickly--just by stopping eating when he wasn't hungry anymore. In his case, this amounted to, basically, eating only 2/3 a stick of butter as a snack instead of finishing the whole thing and shit like that.

Apparently, for a while, he was going around telling everyone about his Super Great Diet Plan he thought of all by himself that was the solution to everyone's problems until his girlfriend was all like, "STFU, asshole." I guess she was or thought she was a little overweight, and was getting really tired of him unintentionally rubbing her nose in it.

On another note, I need to say something to Chuck now: I realize this might seem hypocritical when I'm all complaining about people nagging other people, but this is motivated only by my sincere concern for your health. I applaud your progress and all, but I really think you could stand to lose another forty or fifty pounds. As thinspiration, imagine what it would be like to hear people compliment your appearance without reservation, instead of all those backhanded compliments about having such pretty hands. You can do it, Chuck! You're halfway there already!

[lisarea]

I changed my mind about saying that! Suffice it to say that I am now OFFICIALLY HAUNTED.

Go away!

[Ymir's blood]

Okay, I don't know if you're all joking but if not I'm dying to see some before pictures. Just kidding, but seriously I always assumed you two were skinny without trying, as if I was the only person on the planet who figured out the secret to weight management.Losing the weight didn't take any trying but keeping it off has required occasional dieting. There are no before pictures except a driver's license I kept to remind myself. Can't seem to find it right now though.

[Kael]

I'm 6'2" and somewhere around 220 lbs. I haven't checked in a while. The biggest thing I worry about is that I have become a lot more sedentary than I used to be, so I can't run and hike and shit like I used to. So long as I'm able to run a mile without killing myself and hike for half a day or even a full day without killing myself, I've never cared about how much I weigh. Incidentally, I can't do either of those things right now, so it's something I'll be working on this summer.

I've never been in the habit of watching what I eat, which might be why I'm plagued with things like heartburn all the damned time. I've started putting conscious effort into eating more vegetables and fruit, but that's about it.

[Watser?]

But isn't ChunkF also the theoretical amalgamation of ChuckF and Chunks?

Also lol I am skinny without trying. My weight went up to around 138 when I was living with my parents for a year or so, but it is now back to below 130 as it was when I was an undergrad.

That means I win, right?

In the words or Arnold Rimmed [deceased]:
“When you’re younger you can eat what you like, drink what you like and still climb into your 26 inch waist trousers and zip them closed. Then you reach that age – 24, 25 – your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag and then without any warning at all, you’re suddenly a fat bastard.”

[erimir]

Well, I'm almost 26, so I must be due for a fatsplosion.

[Clutch Munny]

I knew a guy who lost like a LOT of weight once--I am bad at estimating weights and stuff, but he went from being beach ball shaped to being hot dude shaped really quickly--just by stopping eating when he wasn't hungry anymore. In his case, this amounted to, basically, eating only 2/3 a stick of butter as a snack instead of finishing the whole thing and shit like that.

That was pretty much my sooper sekrit, though I also eat more green and orange stuff. I think I failed at hot dude, but I did become a better hockey player, and can climb hills better on the bike. Oh, and yeah -- I feel a lot better, from my knees to my back to my moods.

[Janet]

I've read about half of this and skimmed the other half. As a lifelong fat person who has recently lost about 75 pounds, which made me less fat but still morbidly obese, I almost never hear anyone comment about what I eat. I must admit that the compliments on my new look are getting a bit old, but they are complimenting me and mean well so I let it go.

Anyway! After reading this and Lisarea's complaints about family members calling her too much or giving out her personal information and whatnot I have come to a conclusion.

Lisarea has to stop hanging out with assholes. Seriously! Everyone seems to be an asshole in your world.

[lisarea]

OMG! I know people who aren't assholes! I just don't complain about those ones! OMG!

Seriously, though, the family members in that one thing were people I literally haven't seen or spoken to in person since I was a kid, and the one recruiter person wasn't a friend, but sort of an auxiliary person, like a friend of a friend. The other nagging types have been acquaintances and strangers and random coworkers and stuff.

Nobody who knows me would try that kind of shit with me, but I do acknowledge that I am an asshole magnet because IRL I come across as a pushover or something. Which I think is related somehow to that phenomenon where everyone thinks I'm short.

I don't even care, though! It gives me stories!

[Ymir's blood]

The Lulu avatar probably adds to the confusion about your height.

[lisarea]

NO U. UR LULU AVATAR PROBABLY ADDS TO THE CONFUSION ABOUT YOUR HEIGHT.

[Ymir's blood]

Sorry about confusing the characters.

On the other hand, my researches did lead me to discover Oona Goosepimple.

[Crumb]

I don't think you guys had brought up the fashion industry much in this thread, but there is an article in ITT that I just stumbled upon talking about fashion models and eating disorders. (It has a freaky NSFW pis at the top. :shudder:)

Killer Fashion: An Industry in Denial -- In These Times (http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/7072/killer_fashion/)

[lisarea]

Jezebel: Incredibly Young Children Think They’re Fat (http://jezebel.com/#!5795814/incredibly-young-children-think-theyre-fat)

[LadyShea]

Jezebel: Incredibly Young Children Think They’re Fat (http://jezebel.com/#!5795814/incredibly-young-children-think-theyre-fat)

That has to come from the adults

[Adam]

I wonder if the studies described in the first link from that post were done cross-culturally. It would be interesting to know if the fat=bad association reported in young children was universal or specific to whatever country or countries they did the studies in.

[lisarea]

I wouldn't even question that it's cultural.

Size Bias As A Social Contruction | Teaching Tolerance (http://www.tolerance.org/activity/size-bias-social-contruction)

And it just seems fundamentally strange to me for such young children to be that conscious of appearance. Kids that age happily walk around with food on their faces and think they look like Superman if they wear their underpants on the outside. I just can't even fathom really young kids independently coming up with such fine-tuned judgments about body type.

[Ymir's blood]

Jezebel: Incredibly Young Children Think They’re Fat (http://jezebel.com/#!5795814/incredibly-young-children-think-theyre-fat)I guess the little porkers ought to eat less if they want mommy to love them again. :sadyup:

[Adam]

I wouldn't even question that it's cultural.

Size Bias As A Social Contruction | Teaching Tolerance (http://www.tolerance.org/activity/size-bias-social-contruction)

And it just seems fundamentally strange to me for such young children to be that conscious of appearance. Kids that age happily walk around with food on their faces and think they look like Superman if they wear their underpants on the outside. I just can't even fathom really young kids independently coming up with such fine-tuned judgments about body type.

Yah, I poorly explained what I meant. There are a couple lines in the linked article along the lines of:

Children as young as five years old show a clear dislike for those who are considered “fat” in accordance with cultural values

So, I was wondering if the studies had been repeated in cultures whose values regarding how heavy a person has to be to be considered "fat" were different, and if the results were any different. Did the same disdain exist for people who significantly exceeded the cultural norm? How about similar disdain for people who were significantly thinner than the cultural norm?

[ChuckF]

Hey guys I just weighed myself and I gained like four pounds since about February or March, maybe? I welcome your comments!

[Ensign Steve]

MOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

[erimir]

Hey guys I just weighed myself and I gained like four pounds since about February or March, maybe? I welcome your comments!How are you going to maintain a harem of cat-o-mites in that condition?

[Qingdai]

Sit on them, duhhhrr.

[Naru]

He'll have to catch me first :runsies:

[Janet]

"Thin means I want to play with you and fat means I don't want you as a friend"

The article calls this comment from children irrational. I call it my childhood. Wonder whether these researchers have ever visited a playground.

[The Lone Ranger]

So, I was wondering if the studies had been repeated in cultures whose values regarding how heavy a person has to be to be considered "fat" were different, and if the results were any different. Did the same disdain exist for people who significantly exceeded the cultural norm? How about similar disdain for people who were significantly thinner than the cultural norm?

A number of studies have found that African-American women tend to be less critical of their weight than are "white" American women. On a less hopeful note, African-American women have much higher rates of obesity than do white women. Admittedly, most of these studies were done in the 90s, so I suppose it's possible that attitudes have changed somewhat since then. Some of the articles claim that African-American women report having difficulty in losing what they consider to be excess weight because of pressure from their peers not to conform to [White] society's notions of body size and shape.


See, for instance:

Abrams K. K., L. R. Allen, and J. J. Gray. 1993. Disordered eating attitudes and behaviors, psychological adjustment, and ethnic identity: a comparison of black and white female college students. The International Journal of Eating Disorders. 14:49–57 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8339099).

Allan, J. D., K. May, and Y. Michel. 1993. Body size values of white and black women. Research in Nursing and Health. 16:323–33 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8210470).

[LadyShea]

Life-size Barbie gets real women talking - TODAY People - TODAY.com (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42595605/ns/today-today_people/)

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/110414-Barbie-remake2-7a.grid-5x2.jpg

This seriously makes me nauseous. Look at that monstrosity

[lisarea]

That picture makes no sense to me, though. The proportions of a Barbie doll are unrealistic, but I can't figure out where that lady got her numbers, or how the hell that's a 39" bust.

OK. I found this, which seems to at least document measuring a Barbie doll.

THE REAL MEASUREMENTS AND PROPORTIONS OF A MODERN BARBIE DOLL (http://www.squidoo.com/the-truth-at-last-the-real-measurements-and-proportions-of-a-modern-barbie-doll)

And just look at it. That doesn't look anything like that other thing.

[LadyShea]

I don't think that blogger did the ratios correctly, instead of deducing she would be 6 feet tall she just decided to start with 6 foot.

Of course, I don't know how the measurements the paper mache artist used were arrived it
"If Barbie were an actual woman, she would be 5'9" tall, have a 39" bust, an 18" waist, 33" hips and a size 3 shoe," Slayen wrote in the Huffington Post. "She likely would not menstruate... she'd have to walk on all fours due to her proportions."

Slayen estimates Barbie would weigh 110 pounds and have a BMI of 16.24. She based her numbers on the book "Body Wars" by Dr. Margo Maine, and readily admits the doll's head, hands and some other features are not to scale.
I think they must have used her head to make the "life size" proportions, because in the story below with the proportions used on a 5'6" person, the head is freakishly large. Also, Barbie's feet are impossibly small

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | What would a real life Barbie look like? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7920962.stm)

Also, LOL at the comments What Real-Life Barbie Would Look Like (http://www.nerdist.com/2011/04/what-real-life-barbie-would-look-like/)

A take on Barbie's makeover into a less curvy "modern" teen aestethic Barbie's New Bod, BFD | Mother Jones (http://motherjones.com/politics/1997/12/barbies-new-bod-bfd)

Another graphic http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/05/real-barbie-proportions-business_distortion.html

[lisarea]

Well, you have to start somewhere if you want to scale up. I'd say start with average head size, because that's probably the measurement with the least variation for body type, but I don't have the head measurements to try it.

That shit about walking on all fours? Seriously, just look at the actual Barbie doll. No. And the shit about not menstruating is absurd too. If you scale up the actual Barbie, the head would be huge, the feet tiny, and the rest maybe a little unlikely, mostly because it'd be a bit unusual to have such large boobs naturally with such a small waist, but I don't think it'd look freakish, and there's nothing to indicate that body type is necessarily unhealthy.

Look at the proportions on the actual doll at that link. Apart from the head, hands, and feet, there are people who look like that who aren't all sickly or walking around on all fours. I'll agree, not many people are naturally built like that otherwise, and it's an unrealistic standard for most, but it's not freaky or monstrous.

[LadyShea]

I think it's the tiny feet that cause the "unable to walk" shit

[Stormlight]

Also, happy no-diet day, ff! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_No_Diet_Day)

[Ensign Steve]

Uh, what?

This day is also dedicated to promoting a healthy life style and raise awareness of the dangers and futility of dieting.

I'm going to need to know what definition of "dieting" they are using. Should I not eat at all today, or just close my eyes and pretend like I have no idea what I'm putting in my mouth? I don't want to do anything dangerous or futile.

[lisarea]

Maybe I'm being too generous, but I'm assuming they don't mean either don't eat or go ahead and eat things you're allergic to and stuff like that. My guess is that it's just an excuse for people who need an excuse to not worry about counting calories or trying to lose weight.

And like I said, it really is almost a default assumption, so I'm guessing there are a lot of people who are perpetually on some kind of weight loss diet for no reason other than that everyone else is, or that they don't know anything else, or that they think there's some personal reason people are always bothering them about it. And for a lot of people, dieting is futile and even counterproductive.

So if people want to have an awareness day, where they cut themselves a break from constant dieting and reconsider whether they should be doing it at all, that's probably a good thing.

[LadyShea]

I'm going to need to know what definition of "dieting" they are using. Should I not eat at all today, or just close my eyes and pretend like I have no idea what I'm putting in my mouth? I don't want to do anything dangerous or futile.

Most people do not use the word "dieting" unless they are doing something out of the ordinary, or eating in a way they do not plan to eat always. Eating healthy all the time, or eating wisely, or being aware of your food and trying to make the best choices for yourself all the time is not "dieting", it is just eating, or your personal eating habits.

My SIL is "dieting" right now; she will only eat nuts and meat and vegetables. Since she cannot/will not limit her food choices so drastically like this forever, or even for most of the time, she is not merely eating well, or eating healthy, or eating.

So to me, dieting is a temporary, and often extreme, limitation of foods eaten (either quantity or food types or both) with the specific goal of losing weight. Everything else is just eating.

Does that make sense?

[Ensign Steve]

So if people want to have an awareness day, where they cut themselves a break from constant dieting and reconsider whether they should be doing it at all, that's probably a good thing.

I'm pretty sure we already have a day for that, though. It's called every holiday ever.

[LadyShea]

See my edit with a definition

Dieting is a temporary, and often extreme, limitation of foods eaten (either quantity or food types or both) with the specific goal of losing weight. Everything else is just eating, or your personal eating habits or something.

I, personally, have "dieted" exactly once in my entire life, and I only did that to change my overall habits for the better. After about a month I started just eating, but made better choices.

[Ensign Steve]

Most people do not use the word "dieting" unless they are doing something out of the ordinary, or eating in a way they do not plan to eat always. Eating healthy all the time, or eating wisely, or being aware of your food and trying to make the best choices for yourself all the time is not "dieting", it is just eating, or your personal eating habits.

Eating healthy all the time, or eating wisely, or being aware of your food and trying to make the best choices for yourself all the time is out of the ordinary. That's why when people do it, other people are always all like, "omg, what diet is that?" or "why are you even thinking about that today, it's Christmas!"

[LadyShea]

Out of the ordinary for you.

Like I don't consider someone who is a vegetarian as "dieting", that's just how they eat.

[BrotherMan]

I have the best diet ever. It consists of the foods I eat.

[Ensign Steve]

Hey, that's the exact same diet I'm on! :highfive:

But don't eat those foods today for some reason! That way leads to danger and futility.

[LadyShea]

If you were on a cabbage soup only diet or something, today you would be encouraged to eat an apple or piece of cheese.

[BrotherMan]

HEY LIVIUS I THINK SOMEBODY BROAK THIS THRAD.

New posts was saying there was a new post but there was no new post. A preview showed somebody posted but IT'S NOT THERE.

Oh, there it is! On a new page! THAT WASN'T THERE.

[lisarea]

OK, as illustration of what I am talking about, I have been "underweight" and I have been in the normal BMI range. And in my experience, there is no demilitarized zone in which strangers and acquaintances do not casually assume I am trying to (or should) gain or lose weight. The closest thing to a sweet spot is on days that one person angrily tells you to eat a sandwich or, if you're already eating a sandwich, not to go sticking your finger down your throat; and another one tells you that you should drink a lot of water before you eat so you will feel fuller or informs you in conspiratorial tones that the salad you are getting probably has as many calories as a cheeseburger.

Particularly for young women, there is no ideal body type in which people assume you're A-OK and not in some vicious self-loathing cycle trying to attain something ridiculous or impossible. It really is, in my experience, the default. I do think it gets better as you get older, or maybe just when you never leave the house, because it doesn't happen to me as often now. (Or maybe I'm just so horribly obese that people figure I'm a lost cause.)

The most compelling data point for me, though, is that it happens on the internet. And I don't put pictures of myself on the internet, so it's not just projection from people who think that if they looked like me, they would be doing something to change it. It's just that a whole lot of people assume that women (and it only happens to me when I am a known lady) all hate their bodies and are all on some kind of mission to change them.

Also I think maybe this font makes my butt look big.

[Watser?]

The closest thing to a sweet spot is on days that one person angrily tells you to eat a sandwich

Where are the days when they would angrily tell you to make them a sandwich?! :sadno:

[Adam]

It's so brave of you to post in that font! You go, girl!

[lisarea]

The closest thing to a sweet spot is on days that one person angrily tells you to eat a sandwich

Where are the days when they would angrily tell you to make them a sandwich?! :sadno:

Oh, I don't go to reddit.

[Ensign Steve]

Damn, between the cop-hate and the fat-love, it seems like it'd be your kind of place.

Also steampunk. Lots and lots of steampunk.

[livius drusus]

Link to steampunk cops beating up fat people plz.

[Demimonde]

Another fine first. :golfclap: (http://www.google.com/search?q=steampunk+cops+beating+up+fat+people&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

[livius drusus]

A glorious victory for International No Diet Day.

[Ensign Steve]

Worried that you didn't consume enough empty calories last INND five whole days ago? Not to fret!

Apparently today, May 11, is Eat What You Want Day (http://www.google.com/search?&q=eat+what+you+want+day)!

It's a good thing we have special days set aside especially for this or else people might fall into the dangerous and futile habit of watching what they eat every single day! :egad: Or, you know, ever.

[beyelzu]

lol

[beyelzu]

Awesome, but now I have a real moral conundrum what if what I would like to eat is staying on my diet so that I can be in better shape for the future?

Is there a special day for me?

[lisarea]

You guys do know that there are a million different made up holidays that anyone can start for any reason they like, and none of them are mandatory? And that today is also, according to this page (http://www.holidayinsights.com/moreholidays/may.htm), National Receptionist Day, School Nurses Day, and Twilight Zone Day?

If anything, I'd think the fact that so many people think they need to declare an official day not to follow a restricted diet points to the fact that they experience a lot of external pressure to be on a perpetual deprivation diet, and are looking for some reprieve from those social pressures.

[Adam]

I am personally under a lot of external pressure not to watch The Twilight Zone, so it's a good thing there is a special day set aside where I can do so without shame. I won't be truly satisfied until I can buy a Hallmark card for the occasion, though.

[Janet]

I actually have a tummy ache today, as I did on International No Diet Day, so I will not be able to celebrate in the proper way (http://www.ireallylikefood.com/747505933/5-epic-ways-to-spend-national-eat-what-you-want-day/?ref=xn). I'm not complaining, though. I am considerably less a slave to my digestion than I was a few years ago so I can more than handle babying it for a day or two each month.

[beyelzu]

You guys do know that there are a million different made up holidays that anyone can start for any reason they like, and none of them are mandatory? And that today is also, according to this page (http://www.holidayinsights.com/moreholidays/may.htm), National Receptionist Day, School Nurses Day, and Twilight Zone Day?

If anything, I'd think the fact that so many people think they need to declare an official day not to follow a restricted diet points to the fact that they experience a lot of external pressure to be on a perpetual deprivation diet, and are looking for some reprieve from those social pressures.
That is probably why america leads the world in malnutrition and people being all underweight and shit.

[lisarea]

Do you actually not follow what I'm saying, or are you just snarking for some reason?

[beyelzu]

I follow what you are saying, I just think you are wrong. I am sorry that the realities of weight in america doesn't go with your narrative concerning holidays. Perhaps there is a way to adjust beliefs based on evidence. :tmgrin:

Seriously, as a 330 plus pound man who has struggled most of his adult life with weight and is resigned to the fact that he will have to "diet" forever, I find your posts concerning diet and weight loss amusing.

So, yeah, I am just being snarky in a trying to show you that there is another side to this and that maybe you should consider the other side.

[lisarea]

No. No, you don't follow what I'm saying because none of that follows or is relevant.

What exactly do you think I said about dieting and weight loss?

[LadyShea]

Practicing healthy eating habits is not dieting

[beyelzu]

People want to be in better shape, for some people that requires constant dieting, its not an eating disorder.

Also, just because people assume that you are on a diet, its not the end of all things, fuck they might be commiserating, they might want advise because obviously what you are doing is working, etc...

It just seems that you have a narrative and you fit facts to that narrative whether they go there or not and it seems to me often without charity.

I am going to have to spend the rest of my life thinking about what I am eating because when I don't I weigh over 350 pounds. Its not an eating disorder for me and I suspect for lots of other people as well. I don't think you get it because you haven't struggled with obesity.

[beyelzu]

Practicing healthy eating habits is not dieting

Is weight watchers a diet? Is atkins? I will be doing atkins for the rest of my life. Is that diet or "healthy eating habits"

I do not draw this distinction between dieting and "practicing healthy eating habits"

I suppose I do draw a distinction between "crash" dieting and dieting.

[lisarea]

People want to be in better shape, for some people that requires constant dieting, its not an eating disorder.

It is certainly disordered eating, if not an outright disorder, if they end up binging like the pictures in the OP; or even if people are just dieting because it's a social expectation.


Also, just because people assume that you are on a diet, its not the end of all things, fuck they might be commiserating, they might want advise because obviously what you are doing is working, etc...

It just seems that you have a narrative and you fit facts to that narrative whether they go there or not and it seems to me often without charity.

In other words, you've interpreted everything I say as being motivated by some personal butthurt. It's not. Any personal anecdotes are just to illustrate the fact that disordered eating is so prevalent that sometimes, people just assume that women are dieting, regardless of their body type.

See the Applebees' commercials, in which dieting is explicitly gendered. See the paintings, in which women are depicted binge eating, and the familiar reactions that so many women had to them. Why would so many people even recognize the behaviors being depicted there?

Are you seriously advancing the notion that I'm mistaken or fabricating these gender expectations, simply because you've never noticed them? Because I might be able to provide an alternate explanation for that.

I am going to have to spend the rest of my life thinking about what I am eating because when I don't I weigh over 350 pounds. Its not an eating disorder for me and I suspect for lots of other people as well. I don't think you get it because you haven't struggled with obesity.

You might be right, if I had said anything like that. But I didn't, and if that's what you're reading, I think you're the one who is being motivated by butthurt.

[beyelzu]

People want to be in better shape, for some people that requires constant dieting, its not an eating disorder.

It is certainly disordered eating, if not an outright disorder, if they end up binging like the pictures in the OP; or even if people are just dieting because it's a social expectation.


Also, just because people assume that you are on a diet, its not the end of all things, fuck they might be commiserating, they might want advise because obviously what you are doing is working, etc...

It just seems that you have a narrative and you fit facts to that narrative whether they go there or not and it seems to me often without charity.

In other words, you've interpreted everything I say as being motivated by some personal butthurt. It's not. Any personal anecdotes are just to illustrate the fact that disordered eating is so prevalent that sometimes, people just assume that women are dieting, regardless of their body type.

See the Applebees' commercials, in which dieting is explicitly gendered. See the paintings, in which women are depicted binge eating, and the familiar reactions that so many women had to them. Why would so many people even recognize the behaviors being depicted there?

Are you seriously advancing the notion that I'm mistaken or fabricating these gender expectations, simply because you've never noticed them? Because I might be able to provide an alternate explanation for that.

I am going to have to spend the rest of my life thinking about what I am eating because when I don't I weigh over 350 pounds. Its not an eating disorder for me and I suspect for lots of other people as well. I don't think you get it because you haven't struggled with obesity.

You might be right, if I had said anything like that. But I didn't, and if that's what you're reading, I think you're the one who is being motivated by butthurt.
I remember a cartoon with bugs bunny, he was sitting in a chair and Elmer Fudd was laying back on a couch, now I am not sure but I think the punchline was projection.

What butthurt do I have lisarea?

If I can't understand because I am just a big dumb stupid man, I have to ask.

have you ever been obese, if not, well goose and gander.

[LadyShea]

I define dieting as a temporary, and often extreme, limitation of foods eaten (either quantity or food types or both) with the specific goal of losing weight.

Anything you do "forever" is not dieting. Also, did you discuss all this with a nutritionist or your doctor, bey? I was under the impression that Atkins was recommended, and effective, only in the short term. I may be wrong. Also, why doesn't portion control and exercise work for you...is there a medical reason (I am just asking because I have never had a weight problem so I don't know much about it).

[Ensign Steve]

You guys do know that there are a million different made up holidays that anyone can start for any reason they like, and none of them are mandatory?
Of course we know that. Was that a sincere question or are you being snarky?

If anything, I'd think the fact that so many people think they need to declare an official day not to follow a restricted diet points to the fact that they experience a lot of external pressure to be on a perpetual deprivation diet, and are looking for some reprieve from those social pressures.

Because obviously it's all about developing a healthy attitude toward food. (http://www.ireallylikefood.com/747505933/5-epic-ways-to-spend-national-eat-what-you-want-day/)

Let's look at it from the point of view of an alcoholic. They already have to deal with St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo, and Mardi Gras the way an obese person has to deal with Christmas and Easter (and St. Patrick's day and all the rest of them). So on top of all that, why don't we go ahead and pile on a "International Fall Off the Wagon Day!" and say that it's not mandatory and it's all in good fun and post videos to youtube of people killing themselves with alcohol. Sure we're all in our rights to do that, but it's not a good thing, and it's not healthy no matter how you spin it.

[beyelzu]

I weigh approximately 330 pounds, if we assume I average 1 lb a week and my goal is 200 pounds. I need to "diet" for 130 weeks, 2 and a half years, is that a diet?


My point is really about the differences between short term and long term, and how the distinction you are drawing is kind of arbitrary and only works if you aren't obese already.

Of course, I tried portion control. I remember hearing that alot when i was a fat kid, but when I was 18 and lost a bunch of weight it was because I maintained a strict diet (not atkins) and exercised. It wasn't portion control. I am not good at deciding when to stop.

I follow a restrictive regimen and exercise because I want to be in great shape when we move into the active seniors community :). On my birthday when I turned 34 this year I quit my 2 packs a day smoking habit and I started dieting and exercise. 3 days a week I walk/run with Jennifer 2-3 miles and 3 days a week i do metcon at Crossfit. I read every label and severely limit my carbohydrate intake and I am going to do this forever. even when I reach my target goal, I won't be able to stop because not being on diet got me to over 350 pounds.

[lisarea]

If anything, I'd think the fact that so many people think they need to declare an official day not to follow a restricted diet points to the fact that they experience a lot of external pressure to be on a perpetual deprivation diet, and are looking for some reprieve from those social pressures.

Because obviously it's all about developing a healthy attitude toward food. (http://www.ireallylikefood.com/747505933/5-epic-ways-to-spend-national-eat-what-you-want-day/)

Again, this does not follow. That's not what I said. I typed a lot of stuff, so if you think I made some claim, please quote it and address it directly. All this making stuff up and doing some kind of hamhanded armchair psychoanalysis is bullshit, and it's boring. I'm not speaking in personal drama dogwhistle. I am saying concrete things. If you want to address them, do that, rather than either assuming things or trying to examine my motivations or whatever.

"Eat all you want day" is not a federal holiday, and I'm betting nobody ever heard of it until now. What is interesting about it is the fact that someone saw a need to invent it. What is that need? Who needs a 'holiday' as an excuse to do something that doesn't affect anyone but themselves? What would be the motivation to celebrate it, beyond maybe giving a food related blog something to make a jokey post about?

And look at that post, too.

It appears to be addressed to perpetual dieters looking for a social excuse to binge eat. Even assuming that binge eating were normal and healthy, why not just do it, rather than adopting some social construct? I suspect it has something to do, like I said, with the fact that what people (primarily women) eat is considered to be open to public comment, so they feel a need to claim some type of public holiday to transgress that. That's why that blog post is talking about having an 'excuse.'

You'll also note the gender dynamic in that first picture. "Eat what you want and die like a man." Why is that? Because dieting is for ladies. Same deal as with the Applebee's commercials. Ladies are all on diets whether they're overweight or not, but when men do it, it's kind of silly and girly. Real men don't care!

[Ensign Steve]

All this making stuff up and doing some kind of hamhanded armchair psychoanalysis is bullshit, and it's boring.

Word.

[lisarea]

There is a huge difference between talking about general social trends and media portrayals and making sloppy assumptions about an individual's motivations for doing so.

[Ensign Steve]

Hey, I get it. You win. Proposal accepted. Have your moral panic.

:party:

[beyelzu]

There is a huge difference between talking about general social trends and media portrayals and making sloppy assumptions about an individual's motivations for doing so.

Perhaps but it seems to me the only difference in the way you are doing it is in scale.

[Adam]

And look at that post, too.

It appears to be addressed to perpetual dieters looking for a social excuse to binge eat.

Although the author speculates that the holiday was invented by dieters, the post is explicitly addressed to people who do not diet and, therefore, need to find an unusually ludicrous way to celebrate the day, lest they be ridiculed in the streets and denounced by Bill O'Reilly for their liberal secular humanist War On Eat What You Want Day:

But I realize that I basically eat what I want already(diets never extend beyond a 24 hour frame for me )

So, if you are like me, how can you make this day "special"?:



Even assuming that binge eating were normal and healthy, why not just do it, rather than adopting some social construct? I suspect it has something to do, like I said, with the fact that what people (primarily women) eat is considered to be open to public comment, so they feel a need to claim some type of public holiday to transgress that. That's why that blog post is talking about having an 'excuse.'

I think it's interesting that basically every traditional holiday that we celebrate is already "Eat What You Want Day".

You'll also note the gender dynamic in that first picture. "Eat what you want and die like a man." Why is that? Because dieting is for ladies. Same deal as with the Applebee's commercials. Ladies are all on diets whether they're overweight or not, but when men do it, it's kind of silly and girly. Real men don't care!

Real men don't show weakness in the face of heart attacks or adult onset diabetes any more than they do in the face of lions or the those funny talking people one village over. Dieting is a cowardly concession to, nay, appeasement of, the enemy. Would I agree to live under Sharia Law to preserve my own life? THEN WHY SHOULD I AGREE TO ABIDE BY THE RULES OF THIS DIET?

[lisarea]

Although the author speculates that the holiday was invented by dieters, the post is explicitly addressed to people who do not diet and, therefore, need to find an unusually ludicrous way to celebrate the day, lest they be ridiculed in the streets and denounced by Bill O'Reilly for their liberal secular humanist War On Eat What You Want Day:

But I realize that I basically eat what I want already(diets never extend beyond a 24 hour frame for me )

So, if you are like me, how can you make this day "special"?:

I assumed that's because it's a food blog that seems to post multiple articles a day. In the past few days, she's also posted pretty in-depth articles about McDonalds' roof and a burglar who ate a raw chicken, so I'm guessing she has a fairly low bar for what she considers newsworthy and relevant. That's not a bad thing or anything, but that's to say that I wouldn't read a whole lot into what I parsed as a jokey post about how to binge eat to celebrate some obscure food related holiday.

I think it's interesting that basically every traditional holiday that we celebrate is already "Eat What You Want Day".

Feast holidays are pretty much universal, but it also used to be pretty much universal that food was relatively scarce, which is what made a feast a big deal.

It's kind of pointless to celebrate abundance here and now, because abundance is the default. The differences between a traditional feast in a society in which food is scarce and one in the first world now are the types of food available, and for some, the 'excuse' to eat without concern for social repercussions. Why would you even need a social excuse unless it's a social transgression? If I don't shop at WalMart or talk to Chinese people or whatever for personal reasons, I don't wait around for a "Go to WalMart Day" or a "Say Ching Chong to a Chinaman Day" if I really want to change that. I only do that if those are social prohibitions and someone else is enforcing them.

[livius drusus]

Yes hello what authority do I contact to establish official Say Ching Chong to a Chinaman Day?

[Janet]

Chases Calendar of Events (http://www.mhprofessional.com/templates/chases/).

Yes, my library degree is showing and no, I didn't have to look that up.

[livius drusus]

Janet, you are a national treasure.

[erimir]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[Qingdai]

I have to say that I'm pretty happy that May 13 is "blame someone else day."

:blame: YOU!

[lisarea]

Is that right? News photos of obese people create bias - The Checkup - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-checkup/post/is-that-right-news-photos-of-obese-people-create-bias/2011/05/13/AFbD9Z2G_blog.html)

These guys did a survey of media portrayals of obese people, and found, unsurprisingly, that a whole lot of them were those creepy almost stalkery pictures of fat people from the neck down that they always have in news stories; and they're speculating that, by stigmatizing overweight people, those portrayals may be contributing to the problem itself.

[Ensign Steve]

America's Most Conflicted Magazine: The Cupcakes and Diet Tips of Woman's World (http://gawker.com/5795437/americas-most-conflicted-magazine-the-cupcakes-and-diet-tips-of-womans-world)

In this age of failing magazines, Woman's World has a formula that works: The lead story is always about weight loss, right next to pictures of cupcakes and cheese. Make them feel bad about their weight, then entice them into eating more! It's a tale as old as time gender-targeted marketing, and it has never been more shameless. Come, let us titter at Woman's World's many variations on this theme.

No joke, it's like that month after month. I've been noticing for years. Two big headlines: How to Lose Weight / How to Make this Beautiful Dessert

[livius drusus]

Holy shit a mac and cheese and chili layer cake. :projectilevomit:

[Ensign Steve]

What, where?! :unrun:

[livius drusus]

Bottom left:

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/04/medium_ww5.jpg

It's "budget friendly" donchaknow so, that means the mac is Kraft and the chili Hormel.

[BrotherMan]

Those bastards! Everypony knows that's a PIE not a CAKE. :glare:

[viscousmemories]

Apropos of probably nothing, we have a cafeteria at work and the short-order cook is a small, effervescent latino man named Jose. Whenever I approach he snaps into "ready-to-serve" mode -- with bright eyes and hands on the counter in front of him, he leans slightly toward me and says "what can I get you?" On those occasions when I say "garden burger" he deflates, and the bright-eyed grin and bounce in his step is replaced by the mechanical motions of preparing the food. It's as if I responded to "sexual preference?" with "children". I have seriously considered ordering a regular cheeseburger on more than one occasion, simply to avoid Jose's disapproval.

This is the word of the Lord.

[LadyShea]

Garden burgers are of the devil. Just order a fucking salad you pantywaste.

[lisarea]

No joke, it's like that month after month. I've been noticing for years. Two big headlines: How to Lose Weight / How to Make this Beautiful Dessert

I've noticed that at the checkout before, too. Probably that same magazine, like everything on the cover is about either extreme crash dieting or recipes for cakes with cupcakes stuck to them with frosting.

And then, in the comments, someone mentioned that that same magazine endorsed some scary scam diet, and I got sucked into reading about that for a while:

Kimkins: Pics, Videos, Links, News (http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzz/Kimkins)

[Ensign Steve]

This month's cover is about using the secret hidden properties of tap water to shower the fat away. Oh, how I wish I was joking.

[lisarea]

That would totally work if the fat is on the outside.

OMG PLEASE LET THAT BE IT. Please let it be an article about how to wash off chunks of fat that got stuck to you. :praying:

[erimir]

I demand pictures!

[BrotherMan]

More importantly: What decadent, sinful dessert are they offering a recipe for! :eager:

[viscousmemories]

I read this thread this morning, saw this in the checkout aisle this afternoon:

[LadyShea]

OMG how did I not notice that before? It's totally true. EVERY cover is like that.

Wow.

[LadyShea]

sorreh

[Janet]

Pretty much all the women's magazines are like that. Family Circle and Woman's Day for sure. My Mom buys them and I've been pointing out the mixed messages to her for years.

[Ensign Steve]

I read this thread this morning, saw this in the checkout aisle this afternoon:

I told you! Look, she's showering away the fat.

[Ymir's blood]

Washing away fat should work, given a high enough water pressure and perhaps the addition of a bit of grit to the water. I think the results would be quite satisfactory. :plotting:

[erimir]

Ok, so here's my attempt at a guess at what that's really about. It's about taking cold showers because your body will then burn calories in order to maintain its internal temperature.

[ChuckF]

:lol: loooool I bet you're right.

Drink 100 grams of water at 1° C. Burn 360 calories bringing it up to body temperature.

Problem, science?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/ChuckF/trollguy2.gif

[Watser?]

I read this thread this morning, saw this in the checkout aisle this afternoon:

I told you! Look, she's showering away the fat.

At first I read it as Wish away fat.

Which is closer to the truth anyway...

[lisarea]

I feel really smert and almost kind of prescient today:

Yoplait Pulls Ad Said To Promote Eating Disorders (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/15/yoplait-pulls-ad-that-pos_n_877618.html#s292684&title=Yoplait)

Especially because it is a commercial for that ass dietetic yogurt that enraged me so that one time.

[Ensign Steve]

Plus yoplait is loaded with HFCS, even the "lite" shit. Yoplait has been on my shitlist for a long time because of their technically accurate but grossly misleading ad campaigns. That shit is candy.

[ChuckF]

Plus last week I had a coupon for 75 cents off some Yoplait Greek yogurt but Target didn't even have any so fuck them.

[LadyShea]

I feel really smert and almost kind of prescient today:

Yoplait Pulls Ad Said To Promote Eating Disorders (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/15/yoplait-pulls-ad-that-pos_n_877618.html#s292684&title=Yoplait)

Especially because it is a commercial for that ass dietetic yogurt that enraged me so that one time.

Did you look at the slide show at the end of the article? Padded push up bikini top for 8 year olds? WTFF

[Ensign Steve]

Let me see if I can try to get this off my chest one more time without becoming hysterical or having using any kind of emotion that might make it look like I am taking shit personal and not being objective. (Too late?) All I was ever trying to argue on page the first of this thread was as follows:

From the new huffpo link:
The ad in question addresses a common dilemma: to dessert, or not to dessert? An already slim woman is frozen in front of her office's refrigerator, an inner monologue belying a complex barter system that could justify a piece of raspberry cheesecake.

She could have a small slice, she rationalizes; she has been "good." Or maybe a medium slice with some celery sticks. Or what if she were to jog in place while eating a big slice of cake followed by some celery sticks – that would cancel everything out, right?

Many people who do not have eating disorders think this way. People who want to maintain their ideal bodyweight sometimes need to count calories, both in and out, or carbs, or even just start paying better attention to the amount and quality of food they are eating. This is even the case for people whose ideal bodyweight is quite heavier than the hollywood skinny standard. Some people who are obese right now and don't want to be could choose to cause their bodies to lose weight by learning how do to this in a healthy and effective way. Nothing about that behavior is inherently disordered.

People who have actual, diagnosable eating disorders are a very small minority. I can understand how these commercials could be problematic for them, in the same way that beer commercials would be problematic to an alcoholic. I have empathy for people with eating disorders, just as I have empathy for alcoholics, addicts, the mentally ill, and pretty much everybody. But I don't believe that a commercial can cause someone to contract an eating disorder. I don't think any amount of normalizing these behaviors is going to have a negative affect on anything because I think these behaviors are already totally normal for a lot of healthy people.

Commercials are crap in general. Processed "diet" food is crap in general. People buy the yoplait and eat it by the case and don't get any healthier and then start talking about how "diets don't work" and there's no point in trying. The commercials don't want to educate, they just want to sell, so they "educate" you that their product is best, and if the commercials are all that you're going on, then yeah of course let's have a moral panic! Or we could continue to try to educate ourselves on what we're actually putting in our bodies, including such information as "how many calories are in that?"

I don't know, I don't have a good conclusion but I have to run to class.

[Ensign Steve]

PS: I like the part about how she's "already slim" like that's supposed to matter. She's slim because she watches what she eats. Duh.

Okay, really going to class now.

[LadyShea]

I finally watched Jamie Olliver's show the other day. He wasn't allowed to do anything in the school cafeteria or feed students, but he was allowed to come in a guest educator. He did a fantastic class on processed foods using ice cream sundaes and a variety of toppings (where does shellac come from..bugs? Where does [whatever name seems akin to lanolin] come from...feathers and HUMAN HAIR)? He also did a class where he asked Los Angeles area high school students to name where totally common foods come from, and a whole bunch of them didn't know butter came from cows, they chose corn.

ES just reminded me of that. It was really good.

Also, I caught a video clip of a woman in Broomfield CO who lost 300 lbs through diet and exercise only. I was happy to see that make national news.

[ChuckF]

So I did not even get the eating disorder subtext that the article talks about. I thought about it in pretty much exactly the terms that ES articulated. Sometimes I have that conversation with myself (like, "Hey I had two doughnuts at breakfast this morning, how about a salad for lunch") but I never really resort to the I-will-have-to-do-this-much-to-eat-this kind of calculus. I figured this was merely a reflection of some awareness of what I'm choosing to eat, like trying to not eat sacks full of sodium so that my heart does not asplode. (Incidentally, this same deliberation would probably lead me not to eat the Yoplait raspberry cheesecake bullshit.) It doesn't surprise me that individuals with eating disorders have this kind of inner monologue, and it's probably a lot more intense than anything I've ever engaged in, but I don't see anything inherently unhealthy in thinking about food in those terms. Sometimes I want some fried dough but I don't eat it because it is bad for me. This awareness and self-control are a product of rational thought and analysis. Big deal.

[LadyShea]

People who have unhealthy relationships with food take those conversations to the level of obsession (how many miles do I have to run to burn off this apple), so seeing someone have that more normal range internal conversation can trigger those that struggle with obsessive or compulsive thinking about food. I get that.

I also get where ES is coming from, in that advertising doesn't have any goal of not triggering various mental disorders or addictive behaviors (I think eating disorders are a type of addiction, myself.)

[lisarea]

Disordered behaviors are almost always just amplified versions of normal, healthy behaviors. Even physical illnesses are usually just normal things happening at abnormal levels.

So in this case, say the commercial is designed to present an over-the-top portrayal of a normal behavior. In this case, the point is that that over-the-top portrayal of a tortured bargaining process is actually a fairly realistic portrayal of what people with eating disorders actually do. And apparently, seeing those behaviors, especially seeing them normalized, can actually trigger people who have or are at risk of developing eating disorders.

So to take the beer commercial analogy, it would be analogous to a beer commercial that showed, normalized maybe for humorous purpose, someone repeating the types of rationalizations that alcoholics use when they slip.

As over the top as trigger warnings tend to get in certain forums, there probably is some healthy medium for the mass media and ad campaigns that doesn't overtly portray and normalize disordered behaviors, especially those that are well known to be susceptible to psychological triggers. But although I do think that some go over the top about triggers, I don't see any reason to disbelieve that they're a significant factor in people developing eating disorders or in relapsing.

And I agree about the 'thin' part. I don't know why that's relevant, except possibly to that last part where the one lady tells the other one, "You've lost weight!" as though it's a universal compliment. I want the other lady to say, "I have been trying to put that out of my mind today, as weight loss is a symptom of many terrible diseases, including cancer; and I am awaiting the results of my biopsy as we speak."

Then I want her to throw her opened yogurt into the trash and run off sobbing; whereupon the other lady, noticing the trash, dives in and starts frantically eating garbage, also sobbing.

[erimir]

On a side note, I hate stupid diet bullshit versions of food.

I'd rather have the proper version of something healthier than the diet version of something unhealthy. I don't drink diet soda, don't get light versions of cupcakes or anything like that. If I want a soda, I get the real thing. If I decide I should pass on the sugary soda, I would rather just get some water. I'd rather just get something else than than get the blandified all-white meat grilled chicken breast and egg-white sandwich.

Also I think that, related to what ES said, is that people will get diet versions and then overindulge in them. Because they're more ok to indulge in. They're also less satisfying, so I'm sure many people want more because of that too.

[lisarea]

Yeah, that's basically what I do, but I know my things aren't universal. I have the benefit of having a pretty fast metabolism or something, and not having much of a sweet tooth.

But yes, I have noticed with people I know who've dieted that they often, when they get a craving for something, start out trying to substitute with some sort of diet version and eat that fake thing about a dozen times before giving in and eating the thing they wanted in the first place, often binging on it because they've been fixating on it for so long.

[The Lone Ranger]

Or you see someone eating a truly unhealthy meal -- and ordering a diet drink to go with it.

I almost never eat fast food -- not so much because of dietary concerns, though there's that -- but because most fast food is way to sweet/fatty/salty for my taste. The last time I was on the road and desperately hungry and the only place I could find that was open was a McDonald's, I foolishly ordered a burger and fries. The vaguely hamburger-tasting thing with the molten glop on top that they laughably referred to as cheese literally made me sick to my stomach, and the fries were so heavily salted that I couldn't eat them.

*Ahem* Anyway, the point I was going to make is that at lunchtime I've often seen people sitting at the campus benches with food from Mickey Dee's or Booger King or Taco Hell or wherever. More often than not, they're chowing down on a triple-decker burger with bacon and cheese, accompanied by a vat of greasy, oversalted fries. And drinking a diet Coke -- like that's really going to help.

[LadyShea]

I drink Diet soda because I prefer them, not because I think it's is helping my weight (which is fine anyway), even with a Quarter Pounder and fries LOL. Regular sodas leave me with a sticky unpleasant aftertaste...I assume it's the HFCS but I am not really sure.

I use regular sugar and real butter here at home, rather than substitutes, it's fine in moderation.

[Janet]

I understand the "how can that help" question, but look at the other side of it, which is why make it worse by having a full sugar soda as well.

I'm not a diet soda person myself, the closest I get is having non-fat milk in my mocha. I don't pretend that it's healthy or balances anything else, but I figure why have the calories of full milk if I don't notice the difference?

[Sock Puppet]

You know, I used to find that ridiculous too, but now I see a halfway decent reason for it. If you're going to snarf down that much fat and calories, it makes sense not to suck down the equivalent of 30-40 sugar packets in your drink along with it. I'm not dieting myself, but when I do have a soda (not often), it's usually a Diet Coke just because I don't need all that sugar, and I don't miss it at all.

ETA: Sneaky in-between posters! So what if I thought the end of the page was the end of the thread! :shakeshaker:

[The Lone Ranger]

I drink Diet soda because I prefer them, not because I think it's is helping my weight (which is fine anyway), even with a Quarter Pounder and fries LOL. Regular sodas leave me with a sticky unpleasant aftertaste...I assume it's the HFCS but I am not really sure.

I use regular sugar and real butter here at home, rather than substitutes, it's fine in moderation.

Yeah, that's another reason I don't like fast food. Whenever I've had a soda from such a place, it has generally been so syrupy that I feel like I have to go home and brush my teeth afterwards, just to get rid of that sticky aftertaste.


[ETA: I've tried diet drinks on occasion, but they generally don't taste right to me. I'd rather just have real sugar.]

[ChuckF]

I will say though: a couple of weeks ago when it was literally 100 degrees and humid as shit I came out of the metro rly rly hot and thirsty (and also gross). After walking about a hundreds yards I was like "fuck it" and went in the McDonald's I was walking past, and I got a vanilla milkshake, and it was the best thing I have ever tasted. I then put on a black plastic garbage bag and sprinted the eight miles home.

[lisarea]

I will say though: a couple of weeks ago when it was literally 100 degrees and humid as shit I came out of the metro rly rly hot and thirsty (and also gross). After walking about a hundreds yards I was like "fuck it" and went in the McDonald's I was walking past, and I got a vanilla milkshake, and it was the best thing I have ever tasted. I then put on a black plastic garbage bag and sprinted the eight miles home.

Was there still garbage in the bag? Were you crying?

Did your fat meaty hands slap wetly at your sides like dead weight as you ran?

Did you then regurgitate the milkshake into the garbage bag as you lurched forward in rhythm with your now full-body sobs, mingling the half-digested milkshake with the foul refuse therein, rendering the whole concoction sour and viscous and sticky?

[erimir]

You know, I used to find that ridiculous too, but now I see a halfway decent reason for it. If you're going to snarf down that much fat and calories, it makes sense not to suck down the equivalent of 30-40 sugar packets in your drink along with it. I'm not dieting myself, but when I do have a soda (not often), it's usually a Diet Coke just because I don't need all that sugar, and I don't miss it at all.Oh yeah, I'm fine with drinking diet soda if you like it better than regular, or I guess if you don't find much of a difference.

To me, I don't like the taste. In that situation, if I was choosing between regular soda, diet soda, or water, diet soda would be my last choice. That's just me.

So if I decided I shouldn't be having all that sugar and/or caffeine, I would just get water.

[The Lone Ranger]

One's tastes can change, I've noticed.

I've never been fond of overly-sweet or overly-salty foods anyway, but I've noticed that my tolerance has decreased since I decided some time ago to consciously choose healthier, less-processed food.

I honestly prefer water, fruit juice or milk to soft drinks anyway. But there's sometimes little choice. Occasionally, for example, I'll attend a meeting where drinks are provided. Invariably I'll grab a bottle of orange juice, grape juice, or water. But sometimes, they supply only carbonated beverages. But most of them taste so sweet to me as to be almost unpalatable.

[lisarea]

Bye guys! I'm moving to The Hairpin in order to make fun of salad ladies full time.

Waiter, There's a Calorie in My Salad, and Other Things I Told My Congressperson | The Hairpin (http://thehairpin.com/2011/06/waiter-theres-a-calorie-in-my-salad-and-other-things-i-told-my-congressperson)

[Ensign Steve]

Bye guys! I'm moving to The Hairpin in order to make fun of salad ladies full time.

Waiter, There's a Calorie in My Salad, and Other Things I Told My Congressperson | The Hairpin (http://thehairpin.com/2011/06/waiter-theres-a-calorie-in-my-salad-and-other-things-i-told-my-congressperson)

Salad ladies are pretty hysterical. (http://thehairpin.com/2011/01/women-laughing-alone-with-salad) :unnod:

[Vivisectus]

That is just creepy.

[Janet]

I want what they're having.

Not seriously. I definitely think it's creepy.

[lisarea]

So TLM's store is pushing this stuff really hard, putting these scores right on all the shelves and displays and stuff:

Homepage | NuVal ™ (http://www.nuval.com/)

Just off the top of my head, I can think of about nine hundred ways this is going to go very badly.

[JoeP]

What is the NuVal™ rating for a lone muffin?

[Qingdai]

One thing that went pretty badly (or pretty well) was there was a giant pop-up ad that blocked me from seeing what the hell you linked to there, Mr. Lisa. Also we don't have those stores here. Heh.

[Janet]

I didn't think about this thread when I read this earlier in the week, but it does fit the theme. Ten Rules for Fat Girls (http://diannesylvan.com/?p=1358)

[lisarea]

One thing that went pretty badly (or pretty well) was there was a giant pop-up ad that blocked me from seeing what the hell you linked to there, Mr. Lisa. Also we don't have those stores here. Heh.

Dang, I'm sorry. They're pimping it in TV ads and stuff here and everything, and every now and again, I forget that not everyone knows what I'm talking about all the time.

It's some kind of a system where they assign values, based on "nutrient value" vs. fat, calories, sugar, and sodium, IIRC; so that everything is assigned a single number, with 0 being terrible and 100 being optimal. It's supposed to simplify things for people who don't understand the nutrition information. Fat and calories are bad, nutrients (any old nutrients will do) are good.

Which would be fine if they were putting that in some kind of flyers or references, presented in context and targeted toward people who seek it out, but it's not. They're just tacking these sloppy, oversimplified numbers directly on the shelves and displays, as though being on a weight loss diet is some kind of a universal, and ignoring the fact that there are other nutritional factors to take into account as well.

I assume they're trying to hit some sweet spot of people who are trying to lose weight but are a little too lazy to read the labels but smart enough to understand how not to get rickets and scurvy and whatever all other deficiencies; but by slapping them up all over everything in big oversimplistic numbers like that, they're pushing it on everyone, including people recovering from eating disorders or those at risk for them, children, and people who are stupid enough that they might make themselves sick.

[wildernesse]

I didn't think about this thread when I read this earlier in the week, but it does fit the theme. Ten Rules for Fat Girls (http://diannesylvan.com/?p=1358)

I don't remember if I've said this on the babby thread somewhere, but I have always thought of myself as an unhealthy adult because I am overweight and I had a lot of guilt about being a fat mom-to-be at first. But, 30 baby pounds later, and probably 75 pounds heavier now than I would be if I were Thin, I have had a healthy pregnancy and have actually wrapped my head around the idea that I am actually a decently healthy person even being overweight.

You might have thought that, I don't know, my general good health, would have been a clue. And having a babby (one of these days!) has motivated me to increase healthy habits and decrease unhealthy habits even more than I guess I did normally. I hope I can keep this attitude in view once babby is here, and there is pressure to lose babby weight.

[erimir]

I didn't think about this thread when I read this earlier in the week, but it does fit the theme. Ten Rules for Fat Girls (http://diannesylvan.com/?p=1358)I found a few things problematic with that...

First she talks about "attempting weight loss" as if this is a monolithic thing, and therefore the fact that most people fail means that recommending weight loss is stupid (of course, lots of alcoholic fail to quit the drink, yet we do not think it's stupid to recommend it). There are many truly idiotic ways to attempt weight loss, and I wouldn't recommend them, yet she includes them. Cutting out most sugar and refined carbohydrates, exercising and addressing behaviors like binge eating and so forth should not be lumped in with a fad diet like the cabbage soup diet or some corporate bullshit like the Special K Challenge. Crash dieting with the intention of losing X pounds and then returning to your old habits should not be considered as equivalent. That's like saying there's no benefit to quitting drinking because many people will relapse.

She (and some of her links) keeps repeating that 95% figure as if she's telling you something useful, and if you change your diet and habits and lose weight (even when it's not by crash dieting) she is using that 95% figure to shoot down any suggestion that a healthier lifestyle results in weight loss is invalid. Jess Weiner changed her lifestyle, and had many health indicators improve, and lost 25 lbs - but of course, the suggestion that she could lose weight and not just regain it again in a year by changing to a healthier lifestyle must not be entertained, so she has to include a (not so) subtle snark that she's 95% likely to just end up regaining it.

Of course, that number also happens to be just as bullshit as some of the myths she addresses (95% Regain Lost Weight. Or Do They? - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/25/health/95-regain-lost-weight-or-do-they.html)) but I have a feeling she doesn't apply the same critical eye to it as she does to myths about being thin. It isn't based on any research that looks at all diets and finds that they all fail at that rate, and it isn't based on research of typical people. We don't know what the true number is, or what it would be just looking at healthy diet and exercise plans, but of course this blogger (Do 95% of Dieters Really Fail? « Dances With Fat (http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/do-95-of-dieters-really-fail/)) doesn't care that she doesn't have scientific evidence that 95% of typical attempts at weight loss fail - you can't prove that it's a different number, so she is justified in continuing to use it. She doesn't care about the fact that she's lumping crash diets and larger lifestyle changes together, so she continues to use it to suggest that any attempt is doomed to fail (if you've lost weight, no matter how you did it, she'll suggest that you've got a 95% chance of regaining it).

She links to a page talking about how BMI is bullshit, yet also links to many studies that found that high BMI is not a risk factor, and uses the latter as support for the idea that being fat is not a risk factor. That's just sloppy. She points out that fit, active people with low fat, higher bone density and more muscle mass will tend to have high BMIs, yet assumes that those studies were picking up on the health of fat people with high BMIs. I agree that BMI is a crude measurement and studies trying to look at the effect of obesity should be based on body fat percentage and other better measurements. But I'm going to have to distrust any evidence for obesity being great if it's based on studies of BMI. I think the evidence is clear that BMI is not a useful indicator of health - so, get some research that's not based on it.

There's also some acceptance of "normal" ranges being equated with "perfectly healthy". I know I'm not perfectly healthy, and I've got plenty of numbers that will fall into the healthy range. That doesn't mean I couldn't be healthier.

That said, there's good stuff in there too. But that stuff bothered me.

[Janet]

For the record, I didn't post it because I completely agreed with it. I posted it because I thought some of the ideas were problematic and that it fit into a conversation on societal pressures for weight loss.

I may have said this further up-thread, I don't remember, but I lost about 75-80 pounds in about a 9 month period. In the 18 months since then I have gained back maybe 20 of those pounds. I find myself getting discouraged by that, and then asking myself why. I never started the changes that led to the weight loss because I wanted to lose weight. My exact goal at the time was to extend my self-control to my body instead of treating it like it didn't matter because it was just a box to carry my brain around in. I achieved that goal and then moved onto a more healthy approach of harmony between mind and body rather than mind over body or mind and who cares about body. I've kept up with the exercise that I started with so I haven't really let myself down on my goals.

Why then am I discouraged that a side-effect of my actions is not the same as it was? Why am I trying to avoid admitting that I've gained weight back to the people whose compliments about my weight loss annoyed and embarrassed me and who I felt were being more personal than they had a right to be?* I can't quite figure out what is going on in my head over this issue and the article made me very aware of that fact. I'm a bit obsessive about self-knowledge and self-control, so not being able figure this out or rein in my thoughts is more worrying to me than it would be to many people. I can't just say it's society imposing their view on me, but I can't say that's not what's happening either. That's one of the reasons I find this discussion interesting.

*Of course, it might just be because it's NONE OF THEIR DAMN BUSINESS, but I'm not entirely sure that's the only reason.

[erimir]

I wasn't meaning that as an attack on you.

If that one blogger saw this though, she would say that there's a 95% chance you will regain all the weight you lost, based on some unscientific assumptions. And I found it really annoying to see that number repeatedly thrown around without regard to the context of the weight loss and without good scientific backing.

It is better to focus on the healthy behaviors rather than on the absolute amount of weight lost.

I also think that some of the information about what is a healthy diet is bullshit, so sometimes people think that they're on a healthy diet and that's just the weight they're at when they're on a healthy diet, when it's still their diet that's the problem, even when the diet isn't what would be considered indulging in excess (just because you're not eating fast food and deep fried everything and cake and ice cream doesn't mean you're necessarily eating a super-healthy diet). There's a lot of confusion over what's a healthy diet.

But if you're eating right, and getting a reasonable amount of exercise (overexercising probably leads to failure a lot of the time because it leads to burn out - but a moderate amount of exercise is a big improvement over none, and much easier to maintain), and you're feeling healthier, etc. then you know you're doing what you should be doing.

[Vivisectus]

86% of statistics are made up on the spot.

[Janet]

I am bumping this thread to post this article, The Fat Trap (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html?_r=1&smid=fb-nytimes&WT.mc_id=MG-E-FB-SM-LIN-TFT-123011-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click). A friend sent me it in December and I thought about posting it then but didn't. Shea's mention of eating disorder rituals somewhere else reminded me.

It's a pretty long article, so I'll summarize the parts that keep running around my head. There are two main issues in the article. One is that researchers have found that if you lose more than 10% of your body weight, your body will fight to gain it back and, as far as they can tell, never stop doing so. Your "hunger hormone" increases by about 20%, when you look at pictures of fattening food the reward areas of the brain light up and the control areas of the brain dim and your muscles become more efficient so they burn fewer calories for the same amount of exercise. These results were all compared to people of an equal weight who had not reached that weight through dieting.

The other part of the article deals with strategies people who keep their weight off have used. Here's the most telling excerpt to me.
So she never lets up. Since October 2006 she has weighed herself every morning and recorded the result in a weight diary. She even carries a scale with her when she travels. In the past six years, she made only one exception to this routine: a two-week, no-weigh vacation in Hawaii.

She also weighs everything in the kitchen. She knows that lettuce is about 5 calories a cup, while flour is about 400. If she goes out to dinner, she conducts a Web search first to look at the menu and calculate calories to help her decide what to order. She avoids anything with sugar or white flour, which she calls her “gateway drugs” for cravings and overeating. She has also found that drinking copious amounts of water seems to help; she carries a 20-ounce water bottle and fills it five times a day. She writes down everything she eats. At night, she transfers all the information to an electronic record. Adam also keeps track but prefers to keep his record with pencil and paper.

It seems to me that if they did the same thing with these behaviors as they did with the physiological studies, that is compared them to people of the same weight who had not reached it by dieting, these people would be diagnosed as having an eating disorder. It sure seems to me that the level of obsession with food they are showing isn't much different. The message seems to be that the only way to keep weight off is to become completely obsessed with food and that doesn't strike me as a particularly healthy way to maintain a healthy weight.

[LadyShea]

Wow Janet, yeah, that's exactly the kind of ritualistic behavior I associate with eating disorders. That's crazy obsessive.

[Ensign Steve]

Trust me, if I could figure out a way to maintain my weight without having to count my food and weigh myself, I would. But this is the best way I have found to do it, and it fits my lifestyle, which is already super list-makey and borderline OCD whether it has to do with food or the 1000 other things I enjoy (and franky excel at).

I'm always either going to be fat and food-obsessed or thin and food-obsessed. These are my only two modes. I prefer the latter, and as I have said a couple times, it is really not that onerous as y'all make it out to be. You have to shop and cook and plan meals anyway, so what difference does it make if I do it based on points or some other system like eating fish on Fridays?

Franky, I was tired of people feeling sorry for me when I was fat, assuming I was unhappy. The same goes for now. Have your "crazy obsessive" armchair diagnosis and enjoy it if that's what you're into, but for the love of god please don't feel sorry for me or assume my behavior toward food is this huge burden on my life. Having the weight off frees me up to enjoy my life and it is worth this tradeoff.

[LadyShea]

Do you think there is a difference between obsessive and conscious, ES? Because yeah eating right takes work, that's not obsessive, to me. Being unable to enjoy life because you spend most of your day doing that work around food is obsessive.

[Ensign Steve]

I absolutely believe that there is a continuum, and some people are more obsessed than others, and those that are the most obsessed are truly sick and in need of compassion and help. However, so many of these behaviors that get listed in this thread as "ritualistic" or "disordered" are the very same behaviors that are absolutely necessary for most people for weight-loss and maintenance. There are millions of people who would give anything to be able to naturally maintain their comfortable weight without having to work hard for it, but it is just not the reality.

The behaviors mentioned in that post: weighing yourself, weighing food, keeping records of those numbers, checking restaurant websites in advance, drinking tons of water ... these are the behaviors we teach at work. Yes they are ritualistic. Yes we can get obsessive about them. It doesn't make us sick, it helps make us healthy.

We're covering fat acceptance and anorexia in the same week in my Feminism and the Body course, and I am getting so fed up that the discourse on this topic is completely polarized. There is a huge middle ground that people can healthily live in, but it keeps being presented as though you have to live in one extreme or the other.

[Ensign Steve]

Being unable to enjoy life because you spend most of your day doing that work around food is obsessive.

This is the part that I am still unable to wrap my head around. In the most basic way, we are animals and we need to acquire food to survive. Food, sex, safety, these are our needs as animals and everything we do is for one of these goals. If some people are safe and secure enough in their lives that they can think beyond them, even better.

If they're healthy, people eat several times per day. Unless you eat nothing but processed food and drive-thru, how are you not spending most of your day doing work around food? I am in love with the trends now and in the past toward more home-grown and homemade food, and that shit is very labor- and time-intensive. And then people go ahead and photograph it and blog about it. Why do they do it if they don't enjoy it? Why is it only called "obsessive" when done toward the goal of maintaining a specific weight, but not when done for ethical or other reasons?

Why are being food-obsessed and enjoying your day automatically mutually exclusive?

[LadyShea]

Thanks, I appreciate your perspective.

Unlike other things that people can become obsessive about, food is a necessity, everyone has to eat. So, it makes it more difficult to qualify and quantify what behaviors surrounding eating might be considered extreme or problematic.

And you're right, I don't have to think much about what I eat, in fact, I rarely think about food at all....so I really can't judge what is crazy obsessive and what is simply a necessarily larger amount of brain time spent on the topic of food in order to maintain one's health.

[LadyShea]

Being unable to enjoy life because you spend most of your day doing that work around food is obsessive.

This is the part that I am still unable to wrap my head around. In the most basic way, we are animals and we need to acquire food to survive. Food, sex, safety, these are our needs as animals and everything we do is for one of these goals. If some people are safe and secure enough in their lives that they can think beyond them, even better.

If they're healthy, people eat several times per day. Unless you eat nothing but processed food and drive-thru, how are you not spending most of your day doing work around food?

Why most of your day? I pack Hubby and Kiddo their lunches every morning, it takes 15 minutes.

I touched a bit on this in my last post, but I seriously rarely think about food. If I get a hunger pang during the day I grab a snack (toast, a bagel, a granola bar, piece of fruit). Around 4pm every day I think "oh shit! I need to pull something out of the freezer for dinner". I hate cooking, so usually make whatever is simple. We eat a lot of simple soups and stews and things like beans and rice or some broiled pork chops. Sometimes I think ahead and will put something in the crockpot.

It's like any other task for me...something that needs to be done without much thought


I am in love with the trends now and in the past toward more home-grown and homemade food, and that shit is very labor- and time-intensive. And then people go ahead and photograph it and blog about it. Why do they do it if they don't enjoy it? Why is it only called "obsessive" when done toward the goal of maintaining a specific weight, but not when done for ethical or other reasons?

Why are being food-obsessed and enjoying your day automatically mutually exclusive?

Enjoying cooking and making delicious healthy meals can be a hobby or interest, feeding your family can be labor of love, cooking can certainly be a creative expression. I love making bread for some reason (though nothing else in the kitchen holds any interest for me). Yes, it's labor intensive just as, I dunno, playing a musical instrument, or crafting or doing a work project is labor intensive.

I consider an obsession something that supersedes or dominates everything else...I am a serial obsessive, depending on what is going on in my life.

If I told you I spent about 8 hours total shopping for a specific piece of clothing (which I did this last week), would you think that's obsessive?

What if I told you I spent most of my day, every day thinking about and/or buying, and/or trying on/organizing/cleaning/folding/sewing clothes?

[Ensign Steve]

Why most of your day? I pack Hubby and Kiddo their lunches every morning, it takes 15 minutes.
That's the thing is it's really not most of our day, at least not every day. It takes us about 5 minutes to make breakfast. We spend about 15 minutes the night before packing our lunches. We enter our points into our Weight Watchers app on our iPhones while the water boils. Food tracking is not the onerous task that these articles make it out to be.

But it took some time to learn what to buy and go to the store and buy it. We experiment and try new things and sometimes they work and make it into the rotation and sometimes they don't. So we spend some more time on boards and blogs doing research and looking for healthy ideas and substitutions. We spend weekends, when we have more time to spare, trying and fine-tuning new recipes.

I don't imagine that you just blindly pack a lunch without thinking about whether the meal is nutritious and balanced, the right amount of food for your child, tasty and colorful and fun. Or maybe you do, I don't know, I just assume these are things most parents think about when they pack lunches.

I touched a bit on this in my last post, but I seriously rarely think about food. If I get a hunger pang during the day I grab a snack (toast, a bagel, a granola bar, piece of fruit). Around 4pm every day I think "oh shit! I need to pull something out of the freezer for dinner". I hate cooking, so usually make whatever is simple. We eat a lot of simple soups and stews and things like beans and rice or some broiled pork chops. Sometimes I think ahead and will put something in the crockpot.

It's like any other task for me...something that needs to be done without much thought
I noticed that! When I have stayed in your home I'm like, damn, don't these people ever eat? It was kind of mind-blowing to me. I understand how from your point of view, families that spend all day talking about food and cooking and eating are fairly unusual. But a lot of families are like this. Some use the whole "my family loves food! we're italian! it's part of our culture!" as the reason they and everyone in their family is obese. Some people, like my mom and uncle, call themselves "foodies" and spend breakfast talking about what they're planning to do for dinner, and then spend the day shopping for it and cooking and prepping together. When we get together my cousins get exasperated and shout, "I'm so bored! all you ever talk about is food!" but since we're health-conscious, it's all healthy food. Not "diet" food, but just regular meals with protein, carbs, and veggies in a nice balance.

People come into Weight Watchers because they are already "disordered" in the form of over-eating or food addiction or whatever you want to call it. Their lives and their families already revolve around food, and we help them learn to channel that energy and effort into healthy food. And they (we) learn that you can still have the familial, social aspect of coming together on weekends and holidays and eat special food, just do it with better food. Then there's no reason to be "on a diet" at all.

Enjoying cooking and making delicious healthy meals can be a hobby or interest, feeding your family can be labor of love
Exactly. Feeding ourselves and each other is a labor of love in our house. Shopping, cooking, eating, and exercising together has been a boon in our relationship and is literally saving our lives.

What if I told you I spent most of my day, every day thinking about and/or buying, and/or trying on/organizing/cleaning/folding/sewing clothes?
:lol: You know you're barking up the wrong tree if that's supposed to upset me. If clothes are what make you happy, then absolutely spend every spare second you can enjoying them. Get a job as a seamstress or fashion designer. :thumbup:

[Ensign Steve]

It's like any other task for me...something that needs to be done without much thought

:lol:

Oh my god I am going to call so much bullshit on you right now! Except for eating, there is no task that you do without much thought!

It's like, you know how you are with everything? That's how I am with food. It's all good. :)

[LadyShea]

LOL, fair enough. I said I am a serial obsessive! Yes, I spend ridiculous amounts of time on many things.

But feeding us, for me, is like doing laundry, or peeing, or running errands, or running the dishwasher. Totally boring and absolutely necessary.

I don't imagine that you just blindly pack a lunch without thinking about whether the meal is nutritious and balanced, the right amount of food for your child, tasty and colorful and fun. Or maybe you do, I don't know, I just assume these are things most parents think about when they pack lunches.

I got it down to a science. He gets PB&J every day, on whole grain bread, with my own homemade preserves if I have some, with reduced sugar store boughten if not. Some manner of fruit, crackers and cheese for snacktime, maybe some graham crackers or Kettle cooked chips or Sunchips for a treat. I do cut his sandwiches into shapes every day. I bought a huge tub of animal cookie cutters and will use those then write the name of the animal on a piece of paper. On Friday he got two small heart sandwiches, and I told him it was my heart and his heart.

I totally buy packaged drinks though. He hates plain water and if I am not there to force it on him he will go without hydration.

[Ensign Steve]

Heart-shaped sandwiches. :squee:

I don't drink anything but coffee and diet soda except when I'm working out (and sometimes not even then). Water? Fish piss in that! :yuck:

[lisarea]

You guys do everything wrongly, and I feel sorry for both of you. :deepsigh:

[LadyShea]

How do you do it?

[lisarea]

Correctly.

I am just doing a "simmer down, ladies, you're both fucked up" thing to enrage you.

But I love food. It is one of my favorite hobbies and things to think about, especially since TLM was born and I made myself learn to enjoy cooking. The closest thing I have to disordered behavior with that is that sometimes, if I'm preoccupied or something, I'll forget to eat for a while and end up having to eat whatever is fastest. Which I guess is pretty fucked up, but I figure it's just a function of being a first world spoiledy pants. I'm pretty good about remembering most of the time, so it's not something that affects me a lot.

The thing that really points up the notion of food weirdness being systemic, especially for women, is that people regularly assume that I'm on a weight loss diet, just as a sort of lady default. Most of the time, it just results in waiters giving me Matlock's diet soda or something, but often, it takes this weird, controlling, all up in my shit form. Some people don't even seem to be able to fathom that a woman or even a girl would not be trying to lose weight. Other times, it's creepy and manipulative and kind of passive aggressive, almost as though they're trying to make you feel bad or shame you for not feeling bad about eating.

People usually only notice the assumptions people make about them when they're not accurate, so people assuming I'm trying to lose weight, especially when I was trying to put weight on, is something I notice. And just to be clear: I do not think individual people are pathetically fucked up for having weird issues with food. That's probably an almost inevitable effect of living with constant plenty in a body geared to weather scarcity, but it's amplified and reinforced by systemic food policing. You know, if everyone assumes all the time that you feel bad about eating, at some point, you start to wonder if maybe you should feel bad about it.

[Ymir's blood]

I can forget to eat as well. Eating what was "fastest" caused me to actually gain weight over time, because fastest usually meant fast food burgers. Now I just try and keep healthy or at least semi-healthy food in the house to counteract that.

[Ensign Steve]

But I love food. It is one of my favorite hobbies and things to think about, especially since TLM was born and I made myself learn to enjoy cooking.

Yes, that. I didn't grow up knowing how to cook. Mom worked and went to school full-time and I was raised on convenience foods. She didn't learn to cook until she went back and got her hospitality degree, and she taught me in that year I stayed in LA before I got married. Learning to cook for myself was the most difficult and annoying thing I had to do, but it was numero uno on my learning how to eat right. And for me, cooking refers all of it. Planning, shopping, knowing what to buy and when and how to store it, prepping, cooking, etc. It's a lot of labor, so if I didn't make myself learn to enjoy it, I'm sure I would be miserable.

But it's like, everyone who eats has to cook (or at least who eats home-cooked stuff), so I keep all that behavior mentally distinct from my weight-loss behavior, which only includes the addition of paying attention to how many points something has and keeping track of it. That's the easy part compared to all the labor of actually making food.

Also bey cooks a lot. I mean, more than I do. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that.

[lisarea]

ME TOO. :highfive:

Seriously, that thing where I decided to start cooking as a hobby and personal amusement was one of the best decisions I've ever made, but I did make it consciously. I always liked food, and I'd done basic sustenance cooking since I was a kid, but I thought of it as mostly being a boring necessity and I did used to be one of those guys who would have been happy with some variety of Purina Human Chow about half of the time.

But I consciously made the decision when TLM was a baby that I'd learn to cook better and appreciate food more because I wanted him to eat well. And it actually worked.

I figured that, by treating it as a hobby or entertainment, I could spend a little more money on groceries (I have a hard time spending money) by justifying it to myself as partly an entertainment expense. Also, though, I started going out to eat not necessarily more, but at more interesting places. I'll research restaurants and go on hunts for various things to find the best place, and think of it as a hobby/entertainment expense in part. So if I don't feel like cooking and want to eat out, I know where I can get pho or real Mexican tacos nearby for about what it'd cost to get fast food. (It is ridiculous how long it took me before I found that taco place.)

Another thing that happened is that, as I got better at cooking, convenience foods seemed less convenient, and restaurant food was less tempting because my versions of most of my favorite stuff was better than I could get elsewhere. I approach cooking now like I approach any other hobby or skill acquisition: I'll pick a goal food, either something I made up or something I just want to perfect, and I'll make it a bunch of times over the course of a few weeks, maybe, experiment with it and get that shit all figured out so that I can make it just the way I like, and with increasingly smaller amounts of time and effort. It's a side benefit that I probably have a healthier diet because of it. The main reason I continued to pursue it is that I really enjoy cooking and eating.

I still get fast food sometimes, but when I do, it's usually because I actually want that, and not usually (only sometimes) out of desperation.

I know not everybody is into the same things I am, but for me, learning to cook and appreciate food was one of the two best lifestyle investments I've ever made. (Dogs is the other.)

[Kael]

I would certainly say that, historically, not spending most of your time gathering, preparing, or worrying about the food you are going to eat is a very recent development among the small fraction of humanity fortunate enough to be able to focus primarily on other things. So, yeah, we're kinda wired to worry about food, and since most of us live in a time and place where the problems are not about getting enough food, as it has been for much of human history, but about staying healthy even when we are perfectly capable of acquiring and consuming as much sugar-syrup as we want, then it only makes sense that those food worries might take forms like 'counting calories' and so forth.

I don't think that's disordered behavior at all.

[Chatter]

Since there have been comparisons to alcoholism here, I'll chip in a bit with something that bugs me.

I wouldn't call myself an alcoholic, since I do not see my heavy drinking as having negative impacts on my personal or social life. I drink daily and always until I am quite drunk.

I also typically drink alone. I don't personally have a problem with this. My dad is a high-functioning and heavy drinker, as was his dad, as are my brothers. None of us have the awful reactions to alcohol that make us aggressive or violent, and if we ever did, I'd hope we'd have the good sense to cut drinking.

But Scottish society's attitude to this sort of lifestyle is far more negative than its attitude towards unhealthy food. Taking drinking alone: forget this stuff about dysfunctional food adverts; it is illegal in the UK for TV adverts to depict solitary drinkers. Apparently my behaviour is sufficiently objectionable and depressing, that government must intervene in case anyone accidentally promoted it.

It gets much worse with pricing. I go to the supermarket to buy most of my alcohol, and always hunt out the cheapest whisky, right in the far corner of the shop. Just going through the entrance, I am bombarded with adverts for "2 for 1 on Ben and Jerry's Icecream", stacks and stacks of pringles and doritos offerered at 50% off, racks of cakes, biscuits and muffins from the instore bakery. At the end of every aisle there is always a bucket or a shelf of crisps, chocolate and sweets. At the checkouts, there are boxes of creme eggs, crunchies, kik-kats (and of course, women's magazines explaining how to get thin).

But when it comes to booze, I can't even legally buy the stuff before 11am or after 10pm. I cannot find any "2 for 1" deals on any alcohol product (because it's illegal in Scotland to offer multibuy deals on alcohol). And the government is soon to be introducing a minimum price on all alcohol.

When I go to the counter to buy booze, I also often get casual comments, usually asking me whether I'm going to a party or hosting one, to which I really don't want to respond with the truth.

I'd want both attitudes to change. I don't like the fact that alcohol is singled out as something that the government can legislate against aggressively without being accused of nanny-state. We can't be trusted to drink responsibly, but we can be trusted to eat responsibly even in the face of the the far more aggressive advertising practices of supermarkets.

PS: I'm also an obsessive calorie counter. I have a strange appetite, where I am happy to go for hours without food, but am also capable of eating colossal amounts of food in a single sitting. This doesn't work well for maintenance, so I need to exert conscious discipline to keep myself in check.