Training Your Children

[Charmion]

I listened to Charles Stanley's sermon last Sunday titled Training Our Children. I don't hear his program very often but I like some of his sermons. I just found out that he believes that it's okay to spank a child. He seemed to differentiate between spanking a child with your hand or using a switch. His own mother used a switch when he was a child. I'm not sure if there's any difference between using your hand or a spanking implement--a switch, paddle or belt. Dr. Stanley seemed to think so.

The quote below is from May, 2004. I agree with the part where he said that his mother never said anything to damage his self-esteem. This can often be more damaging in the long term than a spanking that they probably will most likely forget about or get over very quickly.

Friday, May 7
InTouch Early Light Devotional

Lessons My Mother Taught Me
2 Timothy 1:1-6

In the second letter to Timothy, we find mention of a mother named Eunice. She had such an impact on her son that the apostle Paul chose him as a companion and co-worker to evangelize the world of his day. Although married to a pagan, Eunice had so profound a godly influence on Timothy that he became a reliable evangelist and an effective pastor. In the last letter that Paul ever wrote, he attempted to encourage Timothy by exhorting him to hold fast to the godly legacy left by his mother.

In a similar fashion, my own mother left a godly imprint on my life. She taught me both the love and the judgment of God. As the authority in my young life, she would tell me that if I didn't learn to obey her, I wouldn't learn to obey God. Thanks to her, I also discovered that discipline follows disobedience. When I disobeyed, I had to answer for it with a switching. I got a lot of them and I deserved each one - but I'm grateful for every spanking because they taught me to obey God.

At the same time, Mother was a great encourager. She never said anything that would strike against my self-esteem. Even though I was a slow learner in my early days, Mother always supported me in my school work. Throughout my life, she was constantly telling me she loved me. Her smile, her voice, her hugs - even the very sight of her - made me know that this woman loved me with all her heart.

In Touch with Dr. Charles Stanley - In Touch 05-07-04 - Christian Devotional (http://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/in-touch/in-touch-05-07-04-1260901.html)

YouTube - Training Our Children Pt. 1


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[LadyShea]

Well, they aren't dogs so I find the word "training" offensive.

What part of the sermon did you want to discuss?

[Charmion]

Well, they aren't dogs so I find the word "training" offensive.

What part of the sermon did you want to discuss?

I didn't hear all of the program. It was the idea that there's a difference between spanking with your hand and spanking with a switch. I'm not necessarily against spanking but Dr. Stanley compared spanking a child with your hand to being slapped in the face.

[LadyShea]

Your hand is a part of the person and an implement is not. Many people use implements to make it "not them" hitting a child.

They recommend using an implement such as a rod, switch or paddle, because "it separates the discipline from the giver". Spank with Love: Spanking implements (http://www.chastisewithlove.com/implements.html)

[Charmion]

Your hand is a part of the person and an implement is not. Many people use implements to make it "not them" hitting a child.

They recommend using an implement such as a rod, switch or paddle, because "it separates the discipline from the giver".Spank with Love: Spanking implements (http://www.chastisewithlove.com/implements.html)

I noticed that there was a thread about spanking in October '06. The idea that children need more discipline seems to be addressed a lot nowadays.

[LadyShea]

There is a lot of discussion because there is an ideological battle between authoritarians and non authoritarians as to the best way to raise children. As with any issue, there are extremists on both sides and the vast majority fall somewhere in between.

[lisarea]

The idea that children need more discipline is probably painted on cave walls. It's just one of those things people have been saying since people have been saying stuff.

[Vivisectus]

I'm all for it - beat some sense into the little feckers. In fact, why stop there? The good old days were so great, we need more of the stuff from back then, like child labor and untreated childhood diseases leading to massive infant mortality. You won't get any sassback from them if the result will be a stint in a coalmine - nosir!

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[Charmion]

Well, they aren't dogs so I find the word "training" offensive.

What part of the sermon did you want to discuss?

Admonish might be a better word.

1. To reprove gently but earnestly, or,
to reprove or scold, especially in a mild
and good-willed manner.

[lisarea]

Some well-meaning person once bought me a ticket to see a guy like this because they'd heard good things about it, so I went. It wasn't as religion focused as this seems to be, but it seemed similar. I'm not going to watch the whole thing, but I skipped around a few places, and based on what I saw, it looks similar to that thing.

And the whole focus seems to be on raising children not to question authority, which is just weird to me. I can see maybe training pre-verbal or very young and extremely impulsive children to comply with a few hard-line rules just for safety purposes, but not as an overarching parenting philosophy. It seems that approach would be a recipe for raising them to be dull, fearful, and repressed.

So I guess hitting them might be an effective way to accomplish that goal, but why is that the goal in the first place?

[LadyShea]

My goal is to help a small human become a happy, healthy and capable adult human. Hitting the small human doesn't further that goal, that I can see.

[yguy]

she would tell me that if I didn't learn to obey her, I wouldn't learn to obey God.What does learning have to do with it?

Will a good child not obey a good authority figure naturally? And if the child is evil, how can it learn to be good?

[Charmion]

My goal is to help a small human become a happy, healthy and capable adult human. Hitting the small human doesn't further that goal, that I can see.

My parents said that it wasn't necessary for us to be spanked very often when we were children. We weren't holy terrors anyway. My younger sister once took down some little knick-knack from a shelf. It was so long ago that I don't remember but all it took was for my mother to say something like, "Now these are Mama's things. You play with your toys but these are Mama's things and you're not to touch them." Tears actually welled up in her eyes and she felt sorry that she had done something that made it necessary for my mother to discipline her. Children are different. My sister didn't want to displease my mother. My mother never had to speak with her again about it. Other children don't care about what their parents think.

[LadyShea]

Children are different [some] don't care about what their parents think.

When they are infants and toddlers and preschoolers they certainly care, and that's when you set up the foundation of your relationship with them by viewing them as individuals and setting up your guidance philosophies accordingly.

As for spanking, we completely removed that from consideration before Kiddo was even born. It was never on the table. Doing that forces one to find other ways to discipline (as in educate/teach). In fact, we eschew all purely punitive forms of discipline; preferring discussion, logical or natural consequences, and interrelated responsibilities vs. privileges.

[Charmion]

Children are different [some] don't care about what their parents think.

When they are infants and toddlers and preschoolers they certainly care, and that's when you set up the foundation of your relationship with them by viewing them as individuals and setting up your guidance philosophies accordingly.

You've made a good point. When they're young, that's when they're most impressionable and that's the best time to set down some guidelines.

When my cousin brought her young children to visit many years ago, their mother didn't discipline them at all. They were into everything. My mother spoke up but she thought it should have been up to their mother. My mother didn't believe in putting everything out of sight just so they wouldn't get into everything. She said they didn't learn anything that way.

[LadyShea]

It has nothing to do with impressionability or guidelines. You appear to be more authoritarian than I am, so some of your word choices are, like "training", grating to me.

[Qingdai]

Then again, if your children have developmental problems, this sort of parenting is probably the worst thing you can do.

Center For Collaborative Problem Solving (http://www.ccps.info/)

[LadyShea]

Which sort of parenting, Q? Authoritarian I assume?

[LadyShea]

Not spanking and using non punitive discipline doesn't mean there is no discipline (again discipline=teaching/educating). Gentle discipline doesn't mean the kids are allowed to go wild

LLL Gentle Discipline (http://www.llli.org/nb/nbmayjun05p94.html)
Gentle Discipline » (http://fresnofamily.com/parenting/ap/gentle-discipline)
Gentle Discipline « The Parenting Passageway (http://theparentingpassageway.com/gentle-discipline/)

For those who like religion with their parenting

Gentle discipline is neither permissive or punitive. Children need active guidance and well-established boundaries, but children can learn without punishment. We believe that fear and purposely-inflicted pain have no place in gentle, loving, Biblical discipline, and children should be discipled from birth with an appropriate mixture of kindness and firmness in a manner that respects their feelings and their developmental, emotional, and daily needs. http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/topics/gentlediscipline.php

[Charmion]

It has nothing to do with impressionability or guidelines. You appear to be more authoritarian than I am, so some of your word choices are, like "training", grating to me.

I chose the forum title Training Your Children because the title of Dr. Stanley's sermon was "Training Our Children." I think perhaps he chose that because in the Book of Proverbs 22:6,

Train up a child in the way he should go:
and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

[thedoc]

Children are not just 'Small Adults', with adults you can comunicate with them and explain so they will understand, at least with most adults. Very young children are running on instinct and appetites and any dicipline is inapropriate. At some age a child will demonstrate the willful intention for some act, and at this point dicipline, if appropriate, can be effective. At a later age the act can be explained with the consiquences with some hope of success, but it must be understood that responsability also needs to be learned. The method of dicipline will vary with the child, with some only a mild threat of the loss of a toy or privilage will do, some will need the physical attention. In the end it is the responsability of the parent to know what kind of dicipline is appropriate and effective, and what is not.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

A couple had two little boys, ages 8 and 10, who were excessively mischievous. They were always getting into trouble and their parents knew that if any mischief occurred in their town, their sons were probably involved.

The boys' mother heard that a clergyman in town had been successful in disciplining children, so she asked if he would speak with her boys. The clergyman agreed, but asked to see them individually.

So the mother sent her 8-year-old first, in the morning, with the older boy to see the clergyman in the afternoon.

The clergyman, a huge man with a booming voice, sat the younger boy down and asked him sternly, "Where is God?"

The boy's mouth dropped open, but he made no response, sitting there with his mouth hanging open, wide-eyed.

So the clergyman repeated the question in an even sterner tone, "Where is God?" Again the boy made no attempt to answer.

So the clergyman raised his voice even more and shook his finger in the boy's face and bellowed, "WHERE IS GOD!?"

The boy screamed and bolted from the room, ran directly home and dove into his closet, slamming the door behind him.

When his older brother found him in the closet, he asked, "What happened?"

The younger brother, gasping for breath, replied, "We are in BIG trouble this time, dude... God is missing--and they think WE did it!"

[wei yau]

Your hand is a part of the person and an implement is not. Many people use implements to make it "not them" hitting a child.

They recommend using an implement such as a rod, switch or paddle, because "it separates the discipline from the giver". Spank with Love: Spanking implements (http://www.chastisewithlove.com/implements.html)

Having been on the receiving end of both the hand and an implement, I can tell you that it makes no difference whatsoever. I knew full well who was hitting me.

I was raised with spankings, no I mean beatings. That's what they were, spanking sounds almost too nice. And here I am at 40 years old, father of two and looking back I *still* think I deserved the beatings and they were my fault.

Even as I write that down, it sounds crazy to me, but I cannot shake the guilt and shame.

It is why I don't raise a hand to my girls today. No matter how much they may try me or how frustrated or angry I get. I can't do it. I tried once, I'll admit that. And even though it was only a tame swat, I felt sick afterwards.

I can't do that, not ever again.

So, I'm sure I've added little to the conversation, other than overwrought emotions, but it's all I got right now. Being raised with physical discipline has definitely made me the way I am today, I've not doubt about it. I have anger issues, I have low self-esteem and I fail at coping with frustration.

Also, being beaten as a child has also made me support the nightmare that is industrial puppy mills.

[LadyShea]

Yes, the Pearls also chose that phrase for their parenting book To Train Up a Child, and their methods have led to the deaths of several children and severe injury of several more.

[Ensign Steve]

So, I'm sure I've added little to the conversation, other than overwrought emotions, but it's all I got right now.

I think trying to have this conversation in an emotional vacuum would be pointless at best (as in my case, because who cares?) and tragic at worst (as in the cases where actual human children are involved).

[thedoc]

Actually I like the word 'training' My grandson likes thomas and Lionel, I'm into HO scale. But seriously this kind of strong interest can be useful in any kind of dicipline. The following account may illustrate how a strong interest of a child can be used to good effect.



When my gransdon was 3 1/2 years old he was showing no interest in going to the toilet, and seemed to be content wearing diapers. At the time his big thing was that he was a 'big boy'. and that 'big boys' don't take naps. At the time I was keeping him 4 days a week after taking his father to work and till his mother picked him up. One wednesday after changing a messy diaper I told him 'Big boys use the potty and don't need to take naps, but you are using a diaper, that means you are a little boy and need to take a nap'. I imediatly put him down on the couch and made him lay still and take a nap, and he really fussed and cried about that. I continued thuresday and friday, that weekend his mother told me he was going to the potty, and since has only had a few accidents, and recently none that I know of.

[beyelzu]

Your hand is a part of the person and an implement is not. Many people use implements to make it "not them" hitting a child.

They recommend using an implement such as a rod, switch or paddle, because "it separates the discipline from the giver". Spank with Love: Spanking implements (http://www.chastisewithlove.com/implements.html)

My mother favored wooden spoons or sometimes switches when she was drunk. I preferred a hand spank, they were harder but less sting and I never bled from being hit with a hand.

[thedoc]

It is why I don't raise a hand to my girls today. No matter how much they may try me or how frustrated or angry I get. I can't do it. I tried once, I'll admit that. And even though it was only a tame swat, I felt sick afterwards.

I can't do that, not ever again.

So, I'm sure I've added little to the conversation, other than overwrought emotions, but it's all I got right now. Being raised with physical discipline has definitely made me the way I am today, I've not doubt about it. I have anger issues, I have low self-esteem and I fail at coping with frustration.

.


My only question would be 'did you find some way of diciplining your children so that there is some semblance of order. I had 2 daughters and the need was different for both of them. The younger One was a bit of trouble, the older one once decided to 'Play Hooky' from school, in High School, and came to us the night before and asked permission to 'Play Hooky' to work on a school project. The younger one has an 18 mo. old daughter who I take care of 4 days a week, and I can see that she is going to be much like her mother.

[LadyShea]

Did you read the gentle discipline links, thedoc? Also try the discipline books by Elizabeth Pantley and Dr. Sears

[Qingdai]

I was referring to the spankings and the authoritarian parenting style, if you have a child that is already in the limbic brain, flight or flight mode, creating more stress does nothing to help them respond to a demand or request calmly. It just reinforces the flight or fight response.
Children do well and will try to please their guardians if they can, if they can't beating or punishing them only prevents them from using their cerebral cortex and higher functioning brains.

I'd like to have a child with coping skills beyond obeying, fighting or running away from life's difficulties.

[Clutch Munny]

Dr. Stanley compared spanking a child with your hand to being slapped in the face.

Well, why not slap them in the face, anyhow?

If hitting is fine, it's fine, isn't it?

[thedoc]

Your hand is a part of the person and an implement is not. Many people use implements to make it "not them" hitting a child.

They recommend using an implement such as a rod, switch or paddle, because "it separates the discipline from the giver". Spank with Love: Spanking implements (http://www.chastisewithlove.com/implements.html)


I have heard this kind of thinking applied to training Dogs, I don't think it is appropriate with children. To try to imply that it is some disembodied force that is causing the pain is not going to work. If 'You' are going to dicipline the child have the courage to do it yourself, you are setting the rules and boundries, not some unseen entity with no emotional connection to the child. You correct them because you love them, the opposite of love is not hate it's indiffirence, and an uncareing attitude of letting something else do it.

[LadyShea]

I think the whole idea is bonkers myself thedoc. It's just a psychological trick to remove one's feelings of responsibility and/or guilt.

you are setting the rules and boundries, not some unseen entity with no emotional connection to the child
Well, many of these people think they are only enforcing God's rules and boundaries, not setting them themselves. Again, this seems like a copout to me, but they believe it.

[thedoc]

Did you read the gentle discipline links, thedoc? Also try the discipline books by Elizabeth Pantley and Dr. Sears


Dicipline needs to be taylored to the child, I have heard some parents who say that physical beatings had no effect on the child, in these cases some other means must be discovered. In other children just the threat of a smack or loosing something was enough. The primary role of any dicipline is not to mold the child into what you want them to be, but to prevent serious harm to them and others. There is a ballance needed of the child being able to learn and grow, but they must survive to do so.

[LadyShea]

You asked for "some way of diciplining your children so that there is some semblance of order". I offer gentle discipline as one possibility. It is very much based on the individual child/parent relationship, so is more a philosophy than a methodology.

Elizabeth Pantley offers 3-4 possible responses to a number of common behavioral issues in her book, for a good example. It's all very flexible.

[thedoc]

[QUOTE=LadyShea;943868]I think the whole idea is bonkers myself thedoc. It's just a psychological trick to remove one's feelings of responsibility and/or guilt.
[quote]


Have you read any of my posts?

[thedoc]

Well, many of these people think they are only enforcing God's rules and boundaries, not setting them themselves. Again, this seems like a copout to me, but they believe it.

I agree it is not appropriate to transfer the responsability of parenting to anything else, God, Government, Society, if you have children they are your responsability.

[LadyShea]

Of course I have read your posts. Do you feel I have misread something?

[thedoc]

Of course I have read your posts. Do you feel I have misread something?

I think you may be frustrated dealing with peacegirl and are in a hurry to get a response posted. your post did not seem to fit with what I had posted.

[thedoc]

[QUOTE=LadyShea;943868]
It's just a psychological trick to remove one's feelings of responsibility and/or guilt.
[quote]

I do not, and will not, recomend that any parent do this. I'm not sure how you got this intrepretation from what I posted?

[LadyShea]

Of course I have read your posts. Do you feel I have misread something?

I think you may be frustrated dealing with peacegirl and are in a hurry to get a response posted. your post did not seem to fit with what I had posted.

Sorry I was unclear. I was somewhat agreeing with you. I feel that attempts at separating the discipliner from the discipline is a psychological trick people use to absolve themselves of responsibility and remove guilt AND bonkers to boot.

[yguy]

I was raised with spankings, no I mean beatings. That's what they were, spanking sounds almost too nice. And here I am at 40 years old, father of two and looking back I *still* think I deserved the beatings and they were my fault.

Even as I write that down, it sounds crazy to me, but I cannot shake the guilt and shame.And you never will, as long as you continue to resent your tormentors.

[thedoc]

Sorry I was unclear. I was somewhat agreeing with you. I feel that attempts at separating the discipliner from the discipline is a psychological trick people use to absolve themselves of responsibility and remove guilt AND bonkers to boot.

If you look back at my posts #31 & #36, this is what I was trying to say, sorry if I was unclear.

[wildernesse]

Yeah, I don't think there is any difference between using a belt/thing and using your hand, except that the thing is usually going to hurt a lot more. I would have rather my parents hit me with their hands rather than with a switch or a belt or a paddle.

We're going to work on not spanking Bee being the default and see where it takes us. Hands are not for hitting.

[LadyShea]

Srsly Wildy, just take it off the table completely. I think you'll find when it's not there, you won't even think to reach for it, ya know?

[thedoc]

I remember one time when I was young and did something to be punished for. Part of the punishment was that my Dad made me help to make the paddle that he was going to use. I don't remember what I did, I don't remember the actual paddleing, but I do remember that it seemed to take a long time to make the paddle. That was the worst part of that day.

[Charmion]

Actually I like the word 'training' My grandson likes thomas and Lionel, I'm into HO scale. But seriously this kind of strong interest can be useful in any kind of dicipline. The following account may illustrate how a strong interest of a child can be used to good effect.



When my gransdon was 3 1/2 years old he was showing no interest in going to the toilet, and seemed to be content wearing diapers. At the time his big thing was that he was a 'big boy'. and that 'big boys' don't take naps. At the time I was keeping him 4 days a week after taking his father to work and till his mother picked him up. One wednesday after changing a messy diaper I told him 'Big boys use the potty and don't need to take naps, but you are using a diaper, that means you are a little boy and need to take a nap'. I imediatly put him down on the couch and made him lay still and take a nap, and he really fussed and cried about that. I continued thuresday and friday, that weekend his mother told me he was going to the potty, and since has only had a few accidents, and recently none that I know of.

You must have been a hero in your family. Just in time to enroll in Head Start.

[LadyShea]

I think the potty learning thing was a perfect solution...you found what would motivate that particular kid and it worked. Very child oriented and non-punitive.


Just in time to enroll in Head Start.

:scratch:

[Deadlokd]

When I was very young, five or six, Hillary, my adopted mother, used to sit me on the stairs and make me learn multiplication tables. Then she'd test me and if I got one wrong she'd hit my hand with a wooden spoon. Same with reading. I'd get a new Ladybird book, practice it and if I got a word wrong...wooden spoon. If I did anything wrong it was a hand or the spoon. She progressed to a stick when I became a teenager.

Apart from the obvious fuckedness of hitting your child, there are two obvious problems with it. One, you hit your child when they misbehave but then tell them that they can't hit people when they misbehave. You spend their childhoods hitting them and then tell them that as adults they're not allowed to hit people or they'll go to jail. Disconnect much?

Second, the violence has to escalate as the child gets older and desensitised to a hand or spoon. When do you stop?

I cringe every time I see a parent hitting a young child. Kids too young to understand the connection between them being children and exploring their world and their mummy or daddy hitting them.

When my daughter was young we used distraction to stop her doing something dangerous. As she grew up we explained the consequences of her actions. It worked. It takes a bit more effort at the time but a lot less later.

[wildernesse]

Srsly Wildy, just take it off the table completely. I think you'll find when it's not there, you won't even think to reach for it, ya know?

Yeah, I never spanked any of the children that I have ever taken care of, even when it was allowed. And other than tantrums because I should have put the toddler to bed earlier, I never had any trouble.

My phrasing is that way because that is my non-confrontational, let's sidestep this landmine habit. It is how I will say it, if/when that comes up with family, in order to prevent a lecture and head-butting. I have my mind made up, RA is on board, but this way we lessen the chance of hearing about how X wouldn't happen if we spanked or how we will find out the Truth or whatever. Minimizing trigger points.

[thedoc]

I was teaching when the state passed regulations on corporeal punishment, the principal came into the teachers longue and said we shouldn't tell the students about it and we can get away with paddling a few more days. After he left I remarked to another teacher the students probably knew about it before we did, and I thought to myself the principal is really out of touch.

When I was teaching I made a paddle, more as a threat than anything else, but the plan backfired. I made it out of wood and the 'working' side was hollowed out and gave an especially gratifying sound when applied to the backside of an offending student. Didn't do any damage, might have stung a bit, but scared them a lot, especially the ones back in the room who could only hear it. I said it backfired, because on the other side I had carved a picture of a sailing ship, and a vine with a rose, and then stained it appropriate colors. I found students would deliberately do something to earn a swat from that paddle. The threat did not have the desired result.

[LadyShea]

.

My phrasing is that way because that is my non-confrontational, let's sidestep this landmine habit. It is how I will say it, if/when that comes up with family, in order to prevent a lecture and head-butting. I have my mind made up, RA is on board, but this way we lessen the chance of hearing about how X wouldn't happen if we spanked or how we will find out the Truth or whatever. Minimizing trigger points.

I'll bet New Zealand is attractive on that basis alone ;)

[Deadlokd]

:lol:

[Excelsior]

I have a daughter and I have never ever raised a hand to her. I just couldn't bear to spank her or hurt her in any way. But part of me wonders if that makes me a bad father.

I definitely do think that children need discipline. I usually try to explain to her why her actions were naughty, and I can already (she is 4) see her developing social responsibility and caring for other, but there are times when a (non-abusive) spanking might be appropriate.

Interestingly, spanking in Scotland (where I live) is actually illegal.

[Charmion]

I think the potty learning thing was a perfect solution...you found what would motivate that particular kid and it worked. Very child oriented and non-punitive.


Just in time to enroll in Head Start.

:scratch:

Isn't that about the age that children begin Head Start? I guess I was mistaken. I thought that Head Start children needed to be potty trained. Upon checking, I discovered that it's not a requirement, at least in some schools. A school in Texas had a requirement that the child be potty-trained.

At what age can I enroll my child?
Private centers start enrollment at age 2-1/2. Head Start centers start enrollment at age 3-1/2. All children must be potty-trained prior to enrollment. Unfortunately, Mi Escuelita often has a long waiting list so please be sure to contact a center early to reserve a space for your child.

Untitled Document (http://www.miescuelita.org/faq.php)

I just read that the invention of disposable diapers may be to blame for the delay in children being potty-trianed. Read here:

I'm not sure how they get that it is "earlier and earlier"? Compared to what? I had 3 children who were toddlers in the 70's. They were all potty trained by 18 months. If mothers today used cloth diapers and washed them as we did you would see the "earlier and earlier" without having to ask for it.

My oldest child (now 29) was trained by 18 months because back in 1983 or so that was the norm for girls - and YES I was a working Mom and damn proud of it - plus those Pull Ups weren't invented yet. I do believe those Pull Ups are a crutch and only prolong potty training.

This is some kind of joke? Most toddlers are ready before 18 months. I am a retired teacher, head-start and kintergarden. I am disgusted with parents who send "Huggies" to school so the teachers can clean the poop up. I think it is the... rght of the schools, and day care providers, to call the shots on potty training. If a facility refuses children who are not using the toilet, that that is there right to refuse services. I do not think it is the job of teachers, to have to change diddies in a class room.

Requiring children to be potty trained is not new... When my girls went over 20 years ago they required the 3 and up to be potty trained. Children are ready between 2-21/2 years... You have to dedicate your time to do it. Potty training doe...s not happen over night! Each child is different but if you don't dedicate the time and are on the go how do you expect to get a child trained? Now if you don't want to pre-school you can do day care.... A big secret to the potty training is underwear! Those pull ups are just diapers!

Incompatible Browser | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/GoodMorningAmerica/posts/178942762151038)

More discussion on the subject in this forum:

Preschoolers MUST be potty trained! (http://community.babycenter.com/post/a11971155/preschoolers_must_be_potty_trained]Preschoolers MUST be Potty Trained)

Bravo to thedoc. All the Head Start programs in America thank you. Personally, I don't think there's any harm in accelerating the potty-training routine. Disposable diapers are very expensive. That should be incentive enough. Anyway, aren't children uncomfortable going around in wet diapers?

The following is a very good article although it's from 2004:

Deadline for preschool adds to pressures of potty-training (http://www.boston.com/yourlife/family/articles/2004/08/12/deadline_for_preschool_adds_to_pressures_of_potty_training/)

After doing a little reading, there are things that some people might not have considered.

Schools cite health concerns regarding wiping children. They may say that teachers aren't trained or don't have the time to change diapers.

Getting Potty Trained Before Preschool - Potty Training Concepts (http://www.pottytrainingconcepts.com/A-Potty-Training-for-Preschool1.html)

[LadyShea]

Isn't that about the age that children begin Head Start? I guess I was mistaken. I thought that Head Start children needed to be potty trained.

Did you merely mean preschool? Head Start is a specific government program. It was that you chose a program title over the more widely used generic term that threw me...like if you used Medicare instead of health insurance.

[Charmion]

Isn't that about the age that children begin Head Start? I guess I was mistaken. I thought that Head Start children needed to be potty trained.

Did you merely mean preschool? Head Start is a specific government program. It was that you chose a program title over the more widely used generic term that threw me...like if you used Medicare instead of health insurance.

I hear people talking about Head Start all the time here in Maine. I wasn't even thinking about it being for low-income families. There are probably many families eligible for Head Start here in Maine. We're not exactly a rich state.

[LadyShea]

Like I said, it was the use of the specific program over the generic term "preschool" that threw me, that's all.

[wildernesse]

Those mothers quoted about how in the good old days (1970-80's) babies got trained before they were 2 years old is grand "back in my day" talking. In other words, it wasn't the rule even then. My working mom used cloth diapers with us and has a degree in early childhood education, and never saw the point of worrying about early potty training or really worrying about toilet training at all. (Although 3 years old is a good time, in her book, and that would probably be when most people I know thought was a good time, too.) When she was a principal, she always told worried parents that she saw very few 5th graders still wearing diapers--basically, when they had the physical ability and the motivation to do it, they would and being one of the few kids in a class that still wore diapers was often motivation enough.

[Charmion]

Those mothers quoted about how in the good old days (1970-80's) babies got trained before they were 2 years old is grand "back in my day" talking. In other words, it wasn't the rule even then. My working mom used cloth diapers with us and has a degree in early childhood education, and never saw the point of worrying about early potty training or really worrying about toilet training at all. (Although 3 years old is a good time, in her book, and that would probably be when most people I know thought was a good time, too.) When she was a principal, she always told worried parents that she saw very few 5th graders still wearing diapers--basically, when they had the physical ability and the motivation to do it, they would and being one of the few kids in a class that still wore diapers was often motivation enough.

My mother used cloth diapers. That was inspiration enough to start potty-training as early as possible. That was in the days when mothers soaked soiled diapers in chlorine and water. Then she washed them and hung them on a clothesline to dry as she didn't have a dryer.

I don't know if all the information on the website below is true. They're trying to sell cloth diapers.

http://growinggreenbaby.com/?page_id=80

Here's another point of view. There are many.

http://faircompanies.com/blogs/view/whocides-when-to-potty-train-you-baby-or-big-diapers/

[thedoc]

You must have been a hero in your family.
.


? This only took 3 days. ?

[Charmion]

You must have been a hero in your family.
.


? This only took 3 days. ?

It must have been your no nonsense approach. You didn't waste your time with all the theories out there. You just used your gut instinct and it worked.

[Vivisectus]

Kids can be funny in the way they develop. One of mine was potty-trained very early, but got fed up with it and went back to diapers for 6 months. It was very clearly a preference - using the potty didn't feel right to her.

After that she went straight to using the big toilet, disdaining to use the special seat. The weird thing is that she completely skipped the bedwetting / accidents phase - she didn't wet the bed once, and has never had an accident - not a single one.

[Vivisectus]

I feel that spanking or resorting to any sort of physical / violent punishment is a failure to address the issue by other means. But then again I don't have any serious behavioral issues with my sprog, so it never really comes up for me. I have certainly seen situations at friends places where I can understand that someone could be tempted to.

[livius drusus]

I've said it before on these kinds of threads and I'll probably say it again, but discipline, even of a strongly authoritarian nature, is not synonymous with physical violence. My dad ensured my good behavior with a flash of his eyes.

[thedoc]

You must have been a hero in your family.
.


? This only took 3 days. ?

It must have been your no nonsense approach. You didn't waste your time with all the theories out there. You just used your gut instinct and it worked.


The point I was trying to make was that this was a minor blip compaired to all the rest that I have done for my daughter and her family. This does not amount to enough to be thought of as a hero. And I do it because I want to, not for any praise I might get.

[Charmion]

You must have been a hero in your family.
.


? This only took 3 days. ?

It must have been your no nonsense approach. You didn't waste your time with all the theories out there. You just used your gut instinct and it worked.


The point I was trying to make was that this was a minor blip compaired to all the rest that I have done for my daughter and her family. This does not amount to enough to be thought of as a hero. And I do it because I want to, not for any praise I might get.

I think that most parents are on the giving end rather than the receiving end. If you live in the east or someplace with cold winters, it might mean buying a tank of heating oil or helping them meet other obligations. When children are involved, you have to accept help when you need it. In a perfect world, adult children are expected to take care of themselves but it's not a perfect world.

Another one that seems to be prevalent these days is paying their child's lawyer when they're going through bankruptcy. Many parents have to go through bankruptcy as a result of supporting their adult children and paying for their mistakes and mismanagement of money.

Bankruptcy Clients Of The Month: Parents In Financial Trouble (http://www.orangecountybankruptcylawyers.com/Orange-County-Bankruptcy-Blog/2011/February/Bankruptcy-Clients-Of-The-Month-Parents-In-Finan.aspx)
Adult Children and Their Effect on Parents' Finances | Clear Bankruptcy Blog (http://www.clearbankruptcy.com/blog/adult-children-and-their-effect-on-parents-finances/)

[Adam]

I've said it before on these kinds of threads and I'll probably say it again, but discipline, even of a strongly authoritarian nature, is not synonymous with physical violence. My dad ensured my good behavior with a flash of his eyes.

http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel//universe3zx/images/thumb/4/45/Cyclops_Head.jpg/406px-Cyclops_Head.jpg

[LadyShea]

I've said it before on these kinds of threads and I'll probably say it again, but discipline, even of a strongly authoritarian nature, is not synonymous with physical violence. My dad ensured my good behavior with a flash of his eyes.


Do some people think they are synonyms :eek:?

I have defined it, I believe, in my posts. But again, discipline=teaching/learning. I discipline my son every day, but I never punish him.

[Charmion]

I've said it before on these kinds of threads and I'll probably say it again, but discipline, even of a strongly authoritarian nature, is not synonymous with physical violence. My dad ensured my good behavior with a flash of his eyes.

http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel//universe3zx/images/thumb/4/45/Cyclops_Head.jpg/406px-Cyclops_Head.jpg

Funny you should post that picture. I was just trying to find a picture of a man with eyes shooting daggers.

[lisarea]

In a perfect world, adult children are expected to take care of themselves but it's not a perfect world.

Only if you think the perfect world is white western middle class postwar culture.

Maybe a more communal model is more stable and sustainable, and maybe stable and sustainable is closer to perfect than the current model.

[livius drusus]

I've said it before on these kinds of threads and I'll probably say it again, but discipline, even of a strongly authoritarian nature, is not synonymous with physical violence. My dad ensured my good behavior with a flash of his eyes.


Do some people think they are synonyms :eek:?
Yes of course. The people who think they have to hit their children in order to instill discipline. We're talking about them itt.

[LadyShea]

I guess I didn't realize people thought they were synonymous since that's not what the word even means.

[Adam]

In a perfect world, adult children are expected to take care of themselves but it's not a perfect world.

Only if you think the perfect world is white western middle class postwar culture.

Maybe a more communal model is more stable and sustainable, and maybe stable and sustainable is closer to perfect than the current model.

In a truly perfect world, any old thing would be stable and sustainable, so, HAHA BURN!

[lisarea]

Yabbut in a perfect world, you wouldn't be saying stuff. CHECKBURN OR SOMETHING.

[Charmion]

In a perfect world, adult children are expected to take care of themselves but it's not a perfect world.

Only if you think the perfect world is white western middle class postwar culture.

Maybe a more communal model is more stable and sustainable, and maybe stable and sustainable is closer to perfect than the current model.

Of course, you're talking about modern day communal living--not 60s style? Are you talking about things like sharing a community garden or taking advantage of other resources in the community?

I was just reminded of the community-supported agriculture programs. You're entitled to a share of produce and merchandise for a certain amount. This wouldn't be for me. I like to select my own produce. I'm always picking up fruits and vegetables at the supermarket (or local farm stands in summer)--touching, squeezing for ripeness, sniffing or smelling. I ain't buying any avocado that I haven't picked out myself. I'm too fussy.

[wei yau]

I've said it before on these kinds of threads and I'll probably say it again, but discipline, even of a strongly authoritarian nature, is not synonymous with physical violence. My dad ensured my good behavior with a flash of his eyes.

http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel//universe3zx/images/thumb/4/45/Cyclops_Head.jpg/406px-Cyclops_Head.jpg

First ever pic of livius!

http://www.rachel-summers.com/RachelSummersPhoenix.jpg

[lisarea]

In a perfect world, adult children are expected to take care of themselves but it's not a perfect world.

Only if you think the perfect world is white western middle class postwar culture.

Maybe a more communal model is more stable and sustainable, and maybe stable and sustainable is closer to perfect than the current model.

Of course, you're talking about modern day communal living--not 60s style? Are you talking about things like sharing a community garden or taking advantage of other resources in the community?

I'm talking about the post-WWII rise of the isolated nuclear family, which is most common among the middle class in industrialized nations. That's a pretty isolated phenomenon. It's not the default, and it's probably not the ideal, either.

[LadyShea]

I've said it before on these kinds of threads and I'll probably say it again, but discipline, even of a strongly authoritarian nature, is not synonymous with physical violence. My dad ensured my good behavior with a flash of his eyes.


Do some people think they are synonyms :eek:?
Yes of course. The people who think they have to hit their children in order to instill discipline. We're talking about them itt.

Sorry for my brainlessness yesterday. I was not confused by you, I am confused that people treat them as synonyms. I realized that's because I don't think they use discipline as a synonym for physical punishment, I think they use it as a euphemism.

IMO, if one is uncomfortable using a more precise word like "hitting", then maybe he or she should consider why they feel discomfort.

[livius drusus]

I think some people use it as a euphemism when they're defending the practice, but I also think they genuinely believe that if you are not causing your child some kind of physical pain you are not really disciplining them. Timeouts, negotiations, rational discussion, these are not seen as means of discipline but rather as touchy-feely wimp parents capitulating to their children.