Hypocrites?

[LiveToRide]

Hypothetical:

You and a friend are chatting. You're not best friends, you're just good friends. You are still learning things about each other, but so far, have a fair amount of respect, and you can see yourself becoming a very good pal with this person. In the course of a conversation, you reveal something about yourself the other person did not know. It's a touchy subject....say, abortion, or gay rights, or some similar, potentially heated area. When you reveal that you and your friend have completely opposite views on this subject, what then? Can you be open-minded enough to continue the friendship, or is the difference a deal breaker for you? If it IS a deal-breaker, what makes you different from the person whose opinion differs? Is the fact that you now hate this person for being, say, homophobic, any different than the bigotry you hate that person for?

[Bullet]

Hypothetical:

You and a friend are chatting. You're not best friends, you're just good friends. You are still learning things about each other, but so far, have a fair amount of respect, and you can see yourself becoming a very good pal with this person. In the course of a conversation, you reveal something about yourself the other person did not know. It's a touchy subject....say, abortion, or gay rights, or some similar, potentially heated area. When you reveal that you and your friend have completely opposite views on this subject, what then? Can you be open-minded enough to continue the friendship, or is the difference a deal breaker for you? If it IS a deal-breaker, what makes you different from the person whose opinion differs? Is the fact that you now hate this person for being, say, homophobic, any different than the bigotry you hate that person for?So, in other words, is it hypocritical to disdain a person because said person disdains someone else. By golly, I think that is the epitome of hypocrisy. :right:

[wei yau]

Hmm, I'm always hesitant to discuss such things in a general sense. Generalities are often caveated up the wazoo with exceptions and qualifiers.

But, in a general sense, it really all depends.

If my friend has a different opinion on gay marriage (for example), it probably won't affect our relationship...other than we won't talk about gay marriage.

On the other hand, if my friend believes that Chinese are sub-human, I probably couldn't be their friend...as I'm Chinese.

It's probably more a question of tolerance, than a question of hypocrisy.

Hating someone because they hate Chinese isn't hypocrisy on my part. I've nothing against hate, I'm all for hate. But, I do have something against someone hating me.

[livius drusus]

I'm not sure that it is. It seems to me that some beliefs might well be deal-breakers in a relationship simply because they are so profoundly opposed to beliefs you hold very dear.

There's a massive difference, imo, between disdaining an entire group of people because of some characteristic they hold in common and disdaining an individual for proudly declaiming beliefs I disdain. Could I be friendly with a KKK member if we were talking about the weather? Sure. Could I invite him to my house for weekly poker nights and just ignore the smell of cross-burning emanating from him? No.

It's a matter of social consequences to me. You can believe whatever you want -- I'm not going to lobby Congress to make your beliefs illegal -- but I personally do not have to extend you my friendship if your beliefs disgust me.

Some beliefs are going to lose you some friends; that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Other friends will agree with you, or not give a shit either way, or think your friendship is worth sticking it out by avoiding the topic or maybe try to change your mind. Drawing personal boundaries is not automatically intolerant nor is it hypocrisy, imo.

[canaan]

If it were truly my friend that I disagreed with then I would just tell them that they are wrong and ignorant and why. They would in turn tell me that I was a moron and clueless and then we would go shopping. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I can't have mine without allowing my friend to have one as well. If I wanted a clone of myself as a friend then I could save lots of time and energy and just buy a few extra mirrors. :D

P.S. I like chinese people. :wink:

[livius drusus]

Can you think of no professed belief that would so repulse you you'd have to break off the friendship? Particularly since LTR's hypothetical stipulates a sort of nascent, not particularly strong friendship.

If I found out someone I had been "shopping friends" with believes Chinese people are sub-human and should be enslaved for our pleasure, I'd probably be all "look at the time; don't call us we'll call you" and get the fark out of Dodge.

[LiveToRide]

OK, I'm not saying that once a friend is made, they HAVE to remain friends no matter what. It is about tolerance, though. Being intolerant of someone because of intolerance seems hypocritical to me.
I can admit to my bigotted opinions. When I did, a person who I'd come to like and respect became very hostile to me, and the whole situation got me to thinking about that person's narrow-mindedness towards me and my beliefs. I am not trying to change anyone or make them believe how I do. But the loss of a budding friendship has bothered me since it happened.
I'm skating on making this less general than I wanted to...but I am trying to make a point and NOT get into specifics. Doing a damn poor job of it, too, dammit.

[lisarea]

Overconcern with hypocrisy bugs me. It's easy to accuse people of hypocrisy just because you don't necessarily understand the nuances of their positions, or because they are maybe not so good at articulating them. Actual hypocrisy is relatively (relatively, mind you) rare. You oppose abortion for others, protest outside of clinics, but don't think twice about terminating your own unwanted pregnancy. That's hypocrisy. You decry intolerance, but at the same time are intolerant of people you consider intolerant. Not hypocrisy. Nuance.

That said, I've had tons of friends that I disagree with, even very strongly, on various issues. I've had racist friends, misogynistic friends, socially conservative friends, etc. It's not so much the conclusions someone reaches that matters most to me, but how they reach them. I love having friends I can argue with, as long as they have the intellectual integrity to actually argue with me. I wouldn't DATE them or anything, probably, but I'll go get beers with them, invite them to my house, and things like that.

[Dingfod]

I can. But then, that's probably why I have no social life at all. They might like Fords or worse, Dodges. They might ride Harley-Davidsons or some imitation Harley. They might like drinking Budweiser or some other equally disgusting swill. It's always something.

I'm actually not kidding, I run across too many people that I may have a number of things in common with yet have something about them that I cannot stand. I might like everything about them as a person except they are radical Republicans, or radical liberals, or radical religionists (aka fundamentalists), or are racists, or homophobes, xenophobes, or something else, something that just makes me not want to associate myself with them or to be associated with them.

However, I think I would only be a hypocrite if I did those things I hate as well at the same time I refuse to associate myself with themselves for the same things or if I distained them for not associating with me when I most likely have something about me that they cannot stand. Otherwise, like the ever-so-intelligent eldar said, it's just a matter of tolerance. I can tolerate considerable differences of opinion, but there are certain things I cannot: see the above paragraph for clues as to what those are.

[Crumb]

There is a big difference between being intolerant of a group of people based on stereotypes or generalizations, and being intolerant of a single individual based on their words and actions. One is silly and dangerous, the other is a necessary part of life.

[wei yau]

I find myself with agreeing with most of the posts since my first post on this thread.

Levelling a charge of hypocrisy at someone really is a bit of a cop-out. If nothing else, it's completely unproductive.

Saying that someone is narrow-minded for not tolerating your own narrow-mindedness is a bit nonsensical. I mean, if you're willing to be narrow-minded, then you should have no problem with someone being narrow-minded towards you.

So, who's the hypocrite now? See? Utterly useless.

There are some issues that are deeply held by me and opposition towards them would be anathema to any friendship, perhaps even at a casual level. In the interest of keeping this general, I won't lay them out. But, suffice it to say that just-as-intelligent warrenly and I would probably be friends.

[viscousmemories]

As everyone else said, it really depends. I would have a big problem being friends with someone who held what I consider to be irrational, hurtful beliefs. So for example if I met someone who thought that Chinese people (to borrow eldar's example) are subhuman and don't deserve the same rights as other people, it's not likely that I would maintain a friendship with that person. I would call that racism, and I am intolerant of racism. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, though, because hypocrisy by definition means trying to appear to be something you're not, and I have never tried to appear to be tolerant of all views up to and including racism.

[wei yau]

(Spoken) The world today seems absolutely crackers,
With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
There's fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
It's depressing and it's senseless, and that's why...

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're always friendly, and they're ready to please.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today.
You'd better learn to like them; that's what I say.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They come from a long way overseas,
But they're cute and they're cuddly, and they're ready to please.

I like Chinese food.
The waiters never are rude.
Think of the many things they've done to impress.
There's Maoism, Taoism, I Ching, and Chess.

So I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

I like Chinese thought,
The wisdom that Confucious taught.
If Darwin is anything to shout about,
The Chinese will survive us all without any doubt.

So, I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're wise and they're witty, and they're ready to please.

All together.

[verse in Chinese]
Wo ai zhongguo ren.
Wo ai zhongguo ren.
Wo ai zhongguo ren.
Ni hao ma; ni hao ma; ni hao ma; zaijien!

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
Their food is guaranteed to please,
A fourteen, a seven, a nine, and lychees.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees...(fade)

[canaan]

Can you think of no professed belief that would so repulse you you'd have to break off the friendship? Particularly since LTR's hypothetical stipulates a sort of nascent, not particularly strong friendship.

If I found out someone I had been "shopping friends" with believes Chinese people are sub-human and should be enslaved for our pleasure, I'd probably be all "look at the time; don't call us we'll call you" and get the fark out of Dodge.

hmmm, maybe I don't have that problem because I AM that friend who holds very strong beliefs?! Not racist or anything but on certain subjects I know what I know and there's no changing my mind. I figure if you are going to be my friend then you will know this about me and deal with it. If not, you are the weakest link...buh bye. Not everyone is going to mesh. I have a hard time being around people who are negative all the time. They bum me out. So I would come closer to cutting them out of my will than I would someone who had strong beliefs about something that I didn't agree with. Make sense? Sure it does! (when all else fails I just agree with myself and move along) :wink:

[livius drusus]

I figure if you are going to be my friend then you will know this about me and deal with it. If not, you are the weakest link...buh bye.

Ah, so there is a belief you'd shitcan a friend for! :beaugest:

Not everyone is going to mesh. I have a hard time being around people who are negative all the time. They bum me out. So I would come closer to cutting them out of my will than I would someone who had strong beliefs about something that I didn't agree with. Make sense? Sure it does! (when all else fails I just agree with myself and move along)

:chuckle: It does make sense, sure. It's all about where everyone draws the line personally. warrenly's got that burr about his ass about Budweiser fans; you've got no time for negativity and people who don't put up with your unshakeable adherence to beliefs x and y, and lisarea's just a total friend whore who'll hump anyone's leg as long as they appreciate faux-Indian dinners cooked on a goat dung barbecue.

I don't think any of us are hypocrites just because we've drawn those lines.

[lisarea]

:chuckle: It does make sense, sure. It's all about where everyone draws the line personally. warrenly's got that burr about his ass about Budweiser fans; you've got no time for negativity and people who don't put up with your unshakeable adherence to beliefs x and y, and lisarea's just a total friend whore who'll hump anyone's leg as long as they appreciate faux-Indian dinners cooked on a goat dung barbecue.

Well, you know, as long as they're not hardcore racists or Chinese.

[livius drusus]

Don't you have some tandoori to steam, racist?

[Dragar]

Isn't there a huge difference between tolerating someone, and being their friend?

I mean, if I met our hypothetical 'Chinese are subhuman' believer, I wouldn't want to be his friend! But nor would I wish him ill will, or for him to be evicted, or thrown out of the country, or whatever.

[lisarea]

Don't you have some tandoori to steam, racist?

Ooh, tandoori. That's a pretty big word for a little lady.

[Bullet]

If it were truly my friend that I disagreed with then I would just tell them that they are wrong and ignorant and why. They would in turn tell me that I was a moron and clueless and then we would go shopping. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I can't have mine without allowing my friend to have one as well. If I wanted a clone of myself as a friend then I could save lots of time and energy and just buy a few extra mirrors. :D

P.S. I like chinese people. :wink:This is the most intelligent post I've ever seen. :clap:

I like Chinese food.

[wei yau]

This is the most intelligent post I've ever seen. :clap:

So, if a friend of yours held exactly the opposite position of every position you detailed here (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=61652&postcount=87), then you would still remain their friend?

I like Chinese food.

Ahh-so, but how do you feel about the Chinese? ;)

[LiveToRide]

I guess my whole point is that I could remain friends with someone who held views even vastly different from mine. And it bugs me that other people find their opinions more important than the friendship.
I can argue, debate, scream, yell, whatever. But if that person is a friend, we should be able to agree to disagree.

[Bullet]

This is the most intelligent post I've ever seen. :clap:

So, if a friend of yours held exactly the opposite position of every position you detailed here (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=61652&postcount=87), then you would still remain their friend?

I like Chinese food.

Ahh-so, but how do you feel about the Chinese? ;)Yes I would still be their friend. They have the right to their opinion as much as I do. If I can speak my mind, so can they, if it's good for the goose, than Aflack.

As for the chinese, anyone who can cook that good, I Love. :eat:

[lisarea]

Isn't there a huge difference between tolerating someone, and being their friend?

I mean, if I met our hypothetical 'Chinese are subhuman' believer, I wouldn't want to be his friend! But nor would I wish him ill will, or for him to be evicted, or thrown out of the country, or whatever.

See, I think it's worthwhile to examine why they believe that Chinese people are subhuman. Did they reach that conclusion honestly, or understandably, even?

Maybe they saw some study that seemed to confirm that belief, or maybe they've been mugged by Chinese people a lot or something. If they are intelligent and honest people otherwise, I wouldn't write someone off as friend material simply because they're reached some conclusion I think is incorrect. I would, however, write anyone off who was so closed minded as to declare their beliefs untouchable. I'm not going to waste my time on someone I have to walk on eggshells with all the time.

I have met people who resented women or minorities or majorities, and I don't write them off just because of that. I just argue with them. Sometimes I even win. I once had a fairly casual work friend tell me I was his first ever female and first ever white friend. He initially accepted me as an exception, but over time, his attitudes started changing overall. He was just a young guy with limited experiences who'd reached his conclusions through some combination of bitterness and lack of exposure. But he was intelligent and had the integrity to realize over time that his perceptions were a little tainted by both lack of experience and the nature of the limited experiences he did have. I wouldn't write him off just because he'd reached some conclusions I thought were faulty. (To be honest, I'm not sure I would have initially gotten to be friends with him if I'd been fully aware of his attitudes at the outset. I dunno.)

I do love to argue, though. I always thought that's what friends were for.

[Lauri D]

I have quite a few friends who disagree with me on one or more topics that I feel strongly about. However, when it comes to people who hold vastly differing viewpoints on a multitude of things I feel strongly about, I've found that it's really not a matter of me saying "ixnay!" on the friendship as such, but rather that the friendship doesn't tend to flourish naturally.

Maybe it's just me, but despite the fact that good friends can have lots of differences, it seems that having at least some things in *common* (whether a way of thinking or interests) draw people together.

[Dingfod]

Maybe this is why I don't have any friends IRL. Perhaps I need to lower my standards on some matters a bit. Perhaps have a few religious friends, just don't talk about religion, or a few uber-Republican friends, just don't talk about politics, etc. I don't know if that would work or not because someone once told me: "You don't talk politics, religion or sex in polite company." and those are my three favorite subjects.

[lisarea]

Friends don't fall into the category of 'polite company' for me. In fact, now that I think of it, my primary criterion for calling someone a friend seems to be someone I can be impolite with.

But again, I argue for sport. I grew up in a family where we argued all the time, but never fought. I really only avoid confrontation if it's going to be boring or physically dangerous. (Or sometimes if I'm tired or busy.)

But you, know, I can certainly understand why you people would want to avoid getting into arguments, what with being jive turkeys and all.

[Ensign Steve]

I hate you all, but especially eldar for putting that stupid song in my head.

But seriously, most of my friends are hippie pascifist anarchists, and I was afraid they'd all disown me as a friend when I joined the military. Turns out I'm a total jerk who misjudged my friends and they totally love me as much as ever. And that's how I learned the true meaning of winter.

[koan]

If someone was...say...a gay basher and my offense to that attitude was met with belligerence and insults then...yes. I think the friendship has no future.

[PinkRose]

Hypothetical:

You and a friend are chatting. You're not best friends, you're just good friends. You are still learning things about each other, but so far, have a fair amount of respect, and you can see yourself becoming a very good pal with this person. In the course of a conversation, you reveal something about yourself the other person did not know. It's a touchy subject....say, abortion, or gay rights, or some similar, potentially heated area. When you reveal that you and your friend have completely opposite views on this subject, what then? Can you be open-minded enough to continue the friendship, or is the difference a deal breaker for you? If it IS a deal-breaker, what makes you different from the person whose opinion differs? Is the fact that you now hate this person for being, say, homophobic, any different than the bigotry you hate that person for?

sounds childish.behavior and chat like this is for immature persons, no need for panick attacks over someones life. :yup:mums the word with my friends.