Saving Masculinity

[Alex Bragi]

Forget the rainforests of outer Mongolia and endangered fruit bats of Eastern Argentina. And, don't worry about the dodo birds either—it’s too late for them anyway! Ladies, we've got to act fast—we’ve got to save the males!

The way I see it, thanks to extremist women's liberationist, we're slowly killing masculinity as we—ladies, know and love it!

Please, I'm not talking about equal pay and opportunities, because everyone deserves to be evaluated on their individual qualifications and experience, rather than what's between their legs. No, I'm talking quite simply about how men and women relate to each other on a personal level.

Power is synonymous with the masculine identity. Impotence, quite literally, means "powerless". In this ‘Viagra era’—an era of much talk about male impotence, when according to television commercials one in three will at some time in their lives suffer from "erectile deficiency", could the extent of the problem possibly stem from extreme feminism? Instead of taking a little blue pill, maybe some men just need to reclaim their masculine power? And, more importantly, maybe some women need to accept them doing so.

A man opening a door for a woman—it’s a simple gesture, but it illustrates how men and women should relate. We all know a woman can open a door herself. She's equally as capable of doing it as he is, but when he does it he's affirming her femininity, and when she accepts him doing, she's validating his masculinity. I feel that all too often, poisoned by toxic values of the extreme 'anti-male' ideals of over zealous feminist females, many men may often feel confused and inadequate about their masculinity.

A while back, a bewildered male friend of mine recalled how he had offended his date by offering to pull her chair out for her as they sat down to dinner. Later, he lamented, "I was just trying to be a gentleman and make her feel special, but she told me ‘I can do that for myself!’”. Well, of course she could, and she did, but what she didn't do, and what she should have done, was indulge his need to pamper and care for a lady. I just don't get women like that. Any man, anytime, can treat me like I'm someone special and, I swear, I'll never ever complain about it!

Don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not knocking feminism per se. If it wasn't for the feminist movement many women would all still subject to subjugation by their men. Many still are; I'm certainly not condoning that kind of oppression and male domination. But feminism can be sometimes be misleading. All too often it seems to want to convince us that men and women want to and/or need to be totally equal. Men and women can nevery be totally equal. We're just simply physically and psychologically too different.

So, is it really asking that much to allow men to pamper and care for us, and maybe even occasionally worship us, if it makes them feel good about themselves? I think not. :wink:

[ApostateAbe]

I have no trouble with women wanting to open their own doors and pull out their own chairs. If men are going to physically and emotionally pamper women, then what do women give men in return? Compliments? Uhhh... thanks a lot. I have better ideas.

[Dingfod]

I can see it now:
Oh my, Abe, you pulled out my chair! How about I give you a blowjob now?

[flopstock]

I have no trouble with women wanting to open their own doors and pull out their own chairs. If men are going to physically and emotionally pamper women, then what do women give men in return? Compliments? Uhhh... thanks a lot. I have better ideas.

what do you think a fair trade off is?

seriously, i'm interested in your point of view here. I can only really see things from the female perspective.
I would think it logical to expect that she would defer to you, if she set you up as her care giver, ya know what i mean?

[ApostateAbe]

I have no trouble with women wanting to open their own doors and pull out their own chairs. If men are going to physically and emotionally pamper women, then what do women give men in return? Compliments? Uhhh... thanks a lot. I have better ideas.what do you think a fair trade off is?

seriously, i'm interested in your point of view here. I can only really see things from the female perspective.
I would think it logical to expect that she would defer to you, if she set you up as her care giver, ya know what i mean?I don't think it is logical, per se. It rests on the expectation that women are not selfish. Women can get plenty of care, comforting, pampering, hugging, cuddling, opened doors, pulled out chairs, rolled out mats, and they can very well not do jack shit in return. A fair trade would be a clean house, clean dishes, a hot dinner served, and, as warrenly put it, a blowjob.

[Alex Bragi]

I can see it now:
something like thisOh my, Abe, you pulled out my chair! How about I give you a blowjob now?

Oh, Warrenly! :wink: Don't you just wish? :giggle:

I don't think it is logical, per se. It rests on the expectation that women are not selfish. Women can get plenty of care, comforting, pampering, hugging, cuddling, opened doors, pulled out chairs, rolled out mats, and they can very well not do jack shit in return. A fair trade would be a clean house, clean dishes, a hot dinner served, and, as warrenly put it, a blowjob.

Well, sure, Abe. Why, in our house we have a BBB (Beef, Beer and Blowjob) day every week, just so I can pay him back for all the nice things he does for me.. and Abe, if you believe that, then you're also waiting for Santy to drop down your chimney on the 25th of December. :giggle:

[Dingfod]

Har-har!

[ApostateAbe]

Another thing, Alex. I can't see how your idea saves masculinity. It seems to pump another shot of steroids into feminism and give masculinity another kick in the balls. Am I missing something?

[Johnny Pneumatic]

I open doors for everybody, not all the time though. Women can open their own doors, pick up their own tab for the meal and buy their own drinks. I'm all for equal rights, and they don't get any special treatment. I wish women had to be open to military draft if that practice is ever needed again. They wanted the rights, they have to take what goes with them also.

[Alex Bragi]

Abe, I guess I'm just having a bit of fun here and string things up a little, that's all. I actually have an egalitarian relationship with my significant other half.

[Crumb]

I actually have an egalitarian relationship with my significant other half.
Does that mean he does get the blowjobs? :scratch:

[Alex Bragi]

I actually have an egalitarian relationship with my significant other half.
Does that mean he does get the blowjobs? :scratch:

:P Cumb, that's for me to know, and for you not to find out.:giggle:

[flopstock]

So, is what you guys are saying..none of you guys get blowjobs just because she wants to enjoy you? It only occurs as payback? wow!
Do you only chowdown because you feel like you have to?

[Crumb]

I was just trying to get Alex to talk about blowjobs. :dunno:

I will trade oral sex with my gf at the drop of a hat.

[Dingfod]

So, is what you guys are saying..none of you guys get blowjobs just because she wants to enjoy you? It only occurs as payback? wow!I think you're reading way too much into the whole blowjob references. I used it as an example of unrealistic expectations: open a door or pull out a chair = blowjob; completely ridiculous, or so I thought.

[flopstock]

I was just trying to get Alex to talk about blowjobs. :dunno:

I will trade oral sex with my gf at the drop of a hat.

good man!
Did you know that guys have a sweet spot on their cock? Swear to god I didn't! The doofus never bothered to inform me. Saw it in another group a couple of months ago..so when i asked he said 'oh yeah, right here' well duh!

You guys shouldn't be so shy ya know..we don't hesitate to say 'UP, OVER, HARDER' why should you?

[flopstock]

So, is what you guys are saying..none of you guys get blowjobs just because she wants to enjoy you? It only occurs as payback? wow!I think you're reading way too much into the whole blowjob references. I used it as an example of unrealistic expectations: open a door or pull out a chair = blowjob; completely ridiculous, or so I thought.

I agree. If you are not doing it, simply because you can't resist..neither of you is getting the most out of it.

[Crumb]

You guys shouldn't be so shy ya know..we don't hesitate to say 'UP, OVER, HARDER' why should you?
Actually, many of you do.

[John Carter]

Do you only chowdown because you feel like you have to?

Of course not. I do it because I love it. In fact, a few times in my life I've been with women who refused to let me, and each time the over all experience was, imo, lacking.

I don't expect my patner to reciprocate, though I certianly won't object if she does.

[Beth]

I always take my own groceries out, but I am more than willing for a man to hold the door open for me. I reward him with a warm smile and a heartfelt "thank you". That has always been reward enough for the guys I've come across. I also hold the doors open for guys, sometimes, in just a gesture of politeness.

If my hubby did stuff for me expecting a blowjob in return, well, he bloody well knows that I'd tell him to stuff it. He does things to show his appreciation and care, and I do the same. If sex occurs, it is not out of obligation on either party, but out of mutual affection and desire.

[viscousmemories]

A man opening a door for a woman—it’s a simple gesture, but it illustrates how men and women should relate. We all know a woman can open a door herself. She's equally as capable of doing it as he is, but when he does it he's affirming her femininity, and when she accepts him doing, she's validating his masculinity. I feel that all too often, poisoned by toxic values of the extreme 'anti-male' ideals of over zealous feminist females, many men may often feel confused and inadequate about their masculinity.

I have no doubt I'll get in trouble for taking this seriously, but it's a curse I have. :)

In what way does opening a door or pulling a chair out for a woman "affirm her femininity"? What is particularly masculine about pulling a door handle or a chair? Neither requires any physical properties men and women don't both have. :?

[lisarea]

In what way does opening a door or pulling a chair out for a woman "affirm her femininity"? What is particularly masculine about pulling a door handle or a chair? Neither requires any physical properties men and women don't both have. :?

WTF are you talking about? Don't you open doors and pull out chairs with your cock?

Cripes, man. No wonder you're confused.

[viscousmemories]

Well duh! Of course I do! But I don't assume all men are as dextrous as I am.

[Dingfod]

Wows the ladies, doesn't it?

[viscousmemories]

Indeed. In fact my demonstrations of my cock's utility often leave women speechless.

[MooseIBe]

To return to the OP .. I like it if a man holds open a door for me! Of course, I open doors for people too, if I get there ahead of them, and especially I would always get up to open a door for a woman with a pushchair.. so it's not JUST a gender thing. But nonetheless when a man opens a door for me I feel good .. it just seems a courteous and pleasant thing to do.

[inland wave]

To return to the OP .. I like it if a man holds open a door for me! Of course, I open doors for people too, if I get there ahead of them, and especially I would always get up to open a door for a woman with a pushchair.. so it's not JUST a gender thing. But nonetheless when a man opens a door for me I feel good .. it just seems a courteous and pleasant thing to do.

I totally agree. :yup:

[Dingfod]

Yeah, whatever. :yawn:

[inland wave]

Yeah, whatever. :yawn:
My aren't you on one today!
Manners ...I was raised to believe it was what a guy was to do for a girl, lady, woman, grandma // young, 18-50 somthing, elderly // pretty, ugly, indifferent, healthy, sick, or handicapped.
Also a lady would do the same for these various people---even MEN....

[Sweetie]

The way I see it, thanks to extremist women's liberationist, we're slowly killing masculinity as we—ladies, know and love it!

I do agree that there is a masculine identiy crisis in our cultures.

Power is synonymous with the masculine identity. Impotence, quite literally, means "powerless". In this ‘Viagra era’—an era of much talk about male impotence, when according to television commercials one in three will at some time in their lives suffer from "erectile deficiency", could the extent of the problem possibly stem from extreme feminism? Instead of taking a little blue pill, maybe some men just need to reclaim their masculine power? And, more importantly, maybe some women need to accept them doing so.

Well, first things first, power and confidence I think go hand in hand. I'm not real sure if alot of erectile difficulties are psychological in nature so that would make a difference as to whether or not us letting "men be men" will solve that problem.

On one level I certainly agree with you though I have nothing particularily substantial to say in the moment as to why I agree. I'm not a radical feminist first of all, secondly, in my relationship being a rather competent and capable person, I could run totally rampant over this relationship.

I don't want to, I don't need to though I did. I want my husband to feel valued and worthwhile and respected. I don't want him to feel not needed, incompetent, etc.

If I was to be perfectly honest in my relationship, I'd say that to a point, I took control, I needed to have control and then I gave it back to him.

A strange figurative way of putting my relationship:

It's like, give me the keys. He'd say no. I'd say, give me the damned keys, I don't trust you until I have the keys. He'd say no. Then he said alright, and I said cool. I like having the keys but then, why do I want them? Oh, here dear, you can have the keys back.

I ultimately control the keys but I don't need to have the keys, I only want them when they are refused me, let's share the keys, that's the equality in my relationship, lol, if that makes any sense.

A man opening a door for a woman—it’s a simple gesture, but it illustrates how men and women should relate.

I personally agree with the idea that the submissive is the dominant, the humble is the powerful so in this scenario, that's just giving men an illusion of power, delusion being more adequate.

We all know a woman can open a door herself. She's equally as capable of doing it as he is, but when he does it he's affirming her femininity, and when she accepts him doing, she's validating his masculinity.

Then the above just nullifies this idea because that says that in many ways, his masculinity as you are using the term masculinity, is just a farce. You "let" him have his masculinity, you "grant" him that by playing along, etc. I "give" him power, "allow" him to share it with me, etc.

I don't think masculinity is tied to such things myself but I'm not sure if I could say what I actually think masculinity is as an alternative.

Or perhaps all these ideas are tied together, male identity is tied to "usefulness" as males. In that sense then yes, I agree, our societies and feminists tend to deny males their use and sometimes a worthwhile purpose. If woman can do everything without men, why do we need men?

But at the same time, why isn't the reverse true? It must be that woman are just more power hungry and also more adaptable and versatyle I would think.

Interesting thought I saw on a movie the other day, Flight of the Pheonix:

"Give a man someone to love, and if you can't give him that, give him something to hope for, and if you can't give him that, give him something to do."

In that scenario of course, the man in question risking his life just to have some goal to work towards, would rather invite death then sit around waiting for it to take him.


I feel that all too often, poisoned by toxic values of the extreme 'anti-male' ideals of over zealous feminist females, many men may often feel confused and inadequate about their masculinity.

I'm not into 'anti-male' stuff myself. I like men as men, horny, oftentimes ungrateful assholes, but sweet beasties just the same. If they're gonna be assholes though, they better not bitch about bitches. :D

I just don't get women like that. Any man, anytime, can treat me like I'm someone special and, I swear, I'll never ever complain about it!

I'm personally very practical so I wouldn't necessarily be fond of such gestures myself, however, I would accept them and graciously at least at first in a relationship especially knowing the intention behind them.

I don't know, I worked for eight years a few years of which he didn't work and my money was his money and his money was my money, right from the beginning. I don't like gifts of jewelry or flowers, I really don't want someone pulling out my chair for me or opening the car door for me at all, ever.

Men and women can nevery be totally equal. We're just simply physically and psychologically too different.

I agree though not in the way you put it. I think we are equal as persons, just that we don't have essentially the same role. I like men because they are men and not women. Bah, one woman in my space is enough, that one woman being me of course. Like hell I want to turn men into women, at the same time, I don't think their vices need to be catered to.

"Oh my dear, aren't you just the King."

:roflmao:

[seebs]

My spouse is a lot like that, Sweetie. Can't be under authority, but will happily cede decision-making to someone who cares.

Jesse self-identifies as an alpha male, and having seen the ensuing dominance battles, I'm inclined to agree; this is one of nature's pack leaders. Me, I'm just a simple primate. Thing is, primates own dogs. Even alpha males. :P

I survived making this observation, but it was a close call. :)

Seriously, though, I think gender roles have a lot of subtle influences on peoples' control issues... The whole thing is a mystery to me, because I'm simultaneously very inclined to simply presume authority, and yet, not particularly concerned with it. I'm happy to let someone else decide.

[Gurdur]

.... Thing is, primates own dogs....
Pardon me:
who pays financially for the upkeep of the other ?
who is actually subject to legal controls and penalties for upkeep and any mishandling of the other ?
who is getting the most out of the relationship ?
who is doing all the work ?

Who owns whom, did you say ?

[Dingfod]

Also a lady would do the same for these various people---even MEN....On that note, I ended being the friggin doorman at QuikTrip a little while ago, hold the door open for one two dozen more make no effort at all to grab it for themselves, men included. Rude fuckers.

[flopstock]

:cucumber: :tomatod: :broccolo: Also a lady would do the same for these various people---even MEN....On that note, I ended being the friggin doorman at QuikTrip a little while ago, hold the door open for one two dozen more make no effort at all to grab it for themselves, men included. Rude fuckers.


I'm sorry...
You crack me up! You really do!!

[inland wave]

.... Thing is, primates own dogs....
Pardon me:
who pays financially for the upkeep of the other ?
who is actually subject to legal controls and penalties for upkeep and any mishandling of the other ?
who is getting the most out of the relationship ?
who is doing all the work ?

Who owns whom, did you say ?


What does owning a dog have to do with masculinity?
1. We both work and it's not his money or my money, it's our money.
2. In most states it would be the male figure. Depends on the situation.
3. From what I am seeing these days mishandling (abuse) is in no way gender specific.
4/5. In most cases, relationships are give and take. Hopefully, with mutual respect, it should be close to equal. Granted there will be times when it's not, but something comes up and it ends up, for the most part, equal.
6. In an abusive relationship I could see one saying "who owns whom", ( I saw this with my daughters relationship) but in a healthy monogamous relationship, I don't believe it's the case.

I define masculinity not as a macho marine attitude and body. It' what I define in a man as his "true self". It will be defined differently for each person. My husband is one of the most caring, considerate, loving people I know. He takes care of the bills, puts up with me, our childern and our crazy work schedules. He does it cause he wants to and to me that makes him a very manly man. Get the motorcycle fixed and take that summer trip before the heat wave sets in darl'n.

[Dingfod]

Uh, the dog is the winner in the dog ownership equation.

[inland wave]

Uh, the dog is the winner in the dog ownership equation.
Okay, like the horse teaches human new trick thing.....I get it. I thought you were sleeping.

[Beth]

I define masculinity not as a macho marine attitude and body. It' what I define in a man as his "true self". It will be defined differently for each person. My husband is one of the most caring, considerate, loving people I know. He takes care of the bills, puts up with me, our childern and our crazy work schedules. He does it cause he wants to and to me that makes him a very manly man. Get the motorcycle fixed and take that summer trip before the heat wave sets in darl'n. Wow. This is one heckuva description.

[Godwhacker]

I guess its all in how you define masculinity, although I think more men need to focus on being human, and less on being men.

I think that the women's movement gave a great gift to men, the gift of allowing us to break out of being confined to a masculine role in which we stuff our emotions down, don't express ourselves, and try to dominate and control everything, including our closest relationships. One reason women outlive men is that they often suffer less from diseases that are stress related, like hypertension. Research has shown that a big factor in this is that women tend to have closer relationships and share their feelings more. Sharing ones feelings and having close relationships has been shown to be one of the best strategies for relieving stress and also leading a healthier life.

I think many women need to do more to support men who are breaking out of the standard male role. I think alot of women pay lip service to the idea of wanting men to be more sensitive and intimate, but when they find such a man, they don't know how to handle it, and they don't like it. You can't have independence and dominance alongside initimacy and sensitivity in most people, as they are nearly polar opposites. The man who excites you because he is "the strong, silent type", by having these very virtues, is not the kind of man who is usually going to make a great husband.

[JoeP]

Fyi, there's no crisis of masculinity in this culture. The men braai (grill) the meat and drink beer, the women make salads and drink white wine. Or else the men watch rubgy while the women cook and fetch the beers.

[Dingfod]

Fyi, there's no crisis of masculinity in this culture. The men braai (grill) the meat and drink beer, the women make salads and drink white wine. Or else the men watch rubgy while the women cook and fetch the beers.Owraiht! I'll be down there in a jiff.

[Adora]

I don't think many women "love" the supposed masculinity the women's lib movement fights against as Alex suggests. Especially considering the women's lib major gripes is with things such as violence against women, rape, sexual aggression, sexist gender values, equal pay for equal work, etc etc. How can you want a set of masculine ideologies in society that promote men to be...well... like that, and love them?

There is no essential "masculine power" for some men to "reclaim" as idiots like Robert Bly and the rest of the Mythopoetic and Promise Keepers groups claim. The sad fact is that if the only real social reactions to this "crisis" in masculinity are backwards looks such as these, the problem doesn't lie with women supposedly "wanting" two supposedly incompatible things from men, it's men not being able to deal with it themselves, and be strong enough to break out of the stereotypes society promotes. Women are not the keepers of men's problems, and thinking that women are to blame for the "crisis" in masculinity is as disgustingly backwards as blaming female victims in rape cases.

But there is as much, if not more, pressure on many men in society to live up to the masculine ideals since they are now promoted as being the "only things holding society together from the evil breakdown brought by gays, women's lib, abortionists and people who kick kittens". It's where homophobia comes from. There's a lot of research into its contribution to male suicide rates. This isn't about people opening the door for other people, or petty bitching about date ettiquette because some man's precious ego was offended because a woman wouldn't "indulge" him. This is about real issues, like other men who don't live up to the stereotypes of masculinity being constructed as a threat to those who do and therefore end up being beaten to death by sad little homophobes.

No one should "worship" anyone in gender relations, as it places that gender on a pedestal that no human being can ever live up to, and, in the case of obvious examples throughout history, ends up with women being punished for no reason than being unable to satisfy the fantasy of the "perfect" woman. If you want to love someone in a personal relationship for whatever reason, go right ahead. But perpetuating the unbalanced gender system that has done so much harm for so long will help neither men nor women improve their lives.

[Sweetie]

My spouse is a lot like that, Sweetie. Can't be under authority, but will happily cede decision-making to someone who cares.

Jesse self-identifies as an alpha male, and having seen the ensuing dominance battles, I'm inclined to agree; this is one of nature's pack leaders. Me, I'm just a simple primate. Thing is, primates own dogs. Even alpha males. :P

I survived making this observation, but it was a close call. :)

Seriously, though, I think gender roles have a lot of subtle influences on peoples' control issues... The whole thing is a mystery to me, because I'm simultaneously very inclined to simply presume authority, and yet, not particularly concerned with it. I'm happy to let someone else decide.

Interesting thoughts, thanks seebs.

In all seriousness, one thing that drives me nuts about my husband is his inability to make decisions and yet, the fact that he has difficulty with it probably makes our relationship smoother. Well, yes and no, lol. It's an odd thing either way.

Maybe just the fact that he judges that I am competent enough to make all the decisions and he trusts that is something.

At the same time, I don't want to be his mother.

He doesn't want me to be his mother.

I would rather leave him until he can prove that he is capable of standing on his own two feet without me, and then if I have to come back and if I make decisions, then ok. We had this discussion a month ago.

He says that if I died he probably wouldn't remarry for a long time, he couldn't replace me or so he figures. Personally, I don't like that, I don't know that it's my favorite attitude for my partner or necessarily what I think he should be thinking.

Personally, I would rather have him be an individual and be inclined to have an affair as opposed to telling me that he really couldn't be happy without me, that he is that dependent upon me. I don't want that for him, I don't want to be that for him.

[Gurdur]

.... Thing is, primates own dogs....
Pardon me:
who pays .............Who owns whom, did you say ?
What does owning a dog have to do with masculinity?
Hi inland wave,
yes, my post was only a small joke about only dogs and people, and completely off-topic.

I'm none too worried about saving masculinity, my own is safe, and the more other masculinity gets lost (or eaten by dogs), the better my own chances are, I reckon.
:yup: