Central Europe: What's There?

[godfry n. glad]

Okay... My friend and I have tenatively decided to travel to the cities of Central Europe, come October 2006. Expected duration: One month. Primary means of travel between cities: train. Neither of us speak German, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Slovenian or Croatian.

Definitely on the itinerary are:

- Berlin and the Brandenburg region, including Potsdam
- Prague
- Vienna
- Budapest

Feedback I'd like to have is:

- Should any of the following be included: Krakow, Dresden, Liepzig, Bratislava, Zagreb, Ljubjana, Salzburg or Munich? If so, why?

- Should anything not listed be considered?

- Is there any thing or place that should be avoided?

- Any recommendations of sites that are "not to be missed" in any of the cities.

[JoeP]

I'd love to give you detailed advice based on my extensive travel experience ... but the closest I've been to central Europe is Pieve di Cadore in northern Italy.

So my pointless advice based on vague feelings is: you can't go wrong with Prague and Vienna. I think you can go wrong with Budapest - include it but plan what you want to see. Include Munich (did you say Oktober?).

[Gurdur]

- Any recommendations of sites that are "not to be missed" in any of the cities.
The "Old City" - both - in Prague and in Budapest.

[ChuckF]

Krakow, Krakow, Krakow! I loved it there. Very beautiful, fantastic old town. The Jewish quarter is very interesting as well. You may safely skip Warsaw though.

I also liked Dresden a lot. More than Berlin, in fact. It's a very interesting, very pleasant town with lots of interesting things to see. While I was there they were still reconstructing the Frauenkirche (firebombed to the ground), and it was so cool. There were artisans working on stone on-site, and the exhibits about the reconstruction were fascinating. They relied heavily on old photographs of the church, and it was a great photographic history.

[viscousmemories]

When I was stationed near Frankfurt I got bored one Friday night and so took the only trip that was available: a midnight train to Munich. Arrived at 6:00 am, walked around the city all day. There was no plan and I had no money, so naturally I didn't really see any sights there. Just the empty Octoberfest grounds since it wasn't the season. :shrug:

Berlin is beautiful and I've always wanted to see Prague. :yup:

[raspberrybullets]

Well I lived in Bratislava for 6 months and I think it's well worth a visit. The old town is small but charming. It's also incredibly cheap. And Petrzalka, the communist built monstrosity of a...neighbourhood that I like to call Gotham city, should be witnessed by everyone. Though if I were you, I would spend some time heading out into the countryside. Slovakia is incredibly beautiful.

Bratislava btw, is only a 45 minute train ride from Vienna so if you're definitely staying in Vienna, you could easily make Bratislava a day trip.

[godfry n. glad]

Well I lived in Bratislava for 6 months and I think it's well worth a visit. The old town is small but charming. It's also incredibly cheap. And Petrzalka, the communist built monstrosity of a...neighbourhood that I like to call Gotham city, should be witnessed by everyone. Though if I were you, I would spend some time heading out into the countryside. Slovakia is incredibly beautiful.

Bratislava btw, is only a 45 minute train ride from Vienna so if you're definitely staying in Vienna, you could easily make Bratislava a day trip.

Ah, thanks, razz... That answers more than one question for me. I had wondered about the accessibility of Bratislava from Vienna (or vice versa) whilst perusing the maps.

Bratislava now on itinerary.

[godfry n. glad]

- Any recommendations of sites that are "not to be missed" in any of the cities.
The "Old City" - both - in Prague and in Budapest.

Already on the itinerary, but thanks. Prague was pretty much my starting point and I've branched out from there.

How is it getting around via train?

[godfry n. glad]

Krakow, Krakow, Krakow! I loved it there. Very beautiful, fantastic old town. The Jewish quarter is very interesting as well. You may safely skip Warsaw though.

I also liked Dresden a lot. More than Berlin, in fact. It's a very interesting, very pleasant town with lots of interesting things to see. While I was there they were still reconstructing the Frauenkirche (firebombed to the ground), and it was so cool. There were artisans working on stone on-site, and the exhibits about the reconstruction were fascinating. They relied heavily on old photographs of the church, and it was a great photographic history.

Yo, Chuck. Many thanks. I'd heard paeans about some Polish city, but couldn't remember which it was. I'll do more research on Krakow. Going there would seriously skew my loop, but it could be done.

And Dresden, too, huh? It kinda happened into the possibles list when I noticed it was on the way to Prague.

Here's a question: If you had to decide between visiting either Dresden or Liepzig, which would you choose? Wasn't ULiepzig a center of mathematics and physics in the 20th Century?

Dresden was firebombed during WWII, so it's old city is probably entirely rebuilt. Is that the same with Leipzig?

[godfry n. glad]

Include Munich (did you say Oktober?).

Y'know, Joe...here's the shocking truth: I don't really drink beer. The Oktoberfest sounds like a huge gathering of people in one locale for a short period of time, with the added alcohol. That's another disincentive.

What about Nuernburg? Is there anything that can be got in Nuernburg that can't in Munich? Or vice versa?

[Blake]

Freiburg doesn't blow chunks.

[ChuckF]

And Dresden, too, huh? It kinda happened into the possibles list when I noticed it was on the way to Prague.
That's what I did. Stopped in Dresden for a while on the way from Berlin to Prague.

Here's a question: If you had to decide between visiting either Dresden or Liepzig, which would you choose? Wasn't ULiepzig a center of mathematics and physics in the 20th Century?
Not sure, I've never been to Leipzig. One of my good friends will be on a Fullbright at U Leipzig next year though :)

Dresden was firebombed during WWII, so it's old city is probably entirely rebuilt. Is that the same with Leipzig?
I'm not sure about Leipzig. I know it wasn't firebombed to the ground like Dresden was, but I know it was a target. Anyway, the scale of the reconstruction was for me one of the most interesting things about Dresden.

[Gurdur]

How is it getting around via train?
Fine.

[Farren]

Like Joe, I have no experience of Europe and nothing of substance to offer. May I suggest Ploesti in Romania because, who knows, you might enjoy it?

[raspberrybullets]

Yup the train is one of the best ways to get around Prague. So are your feet. :)

[ChuckF]

Yup the train is one of the best ways to get around Prague. So are your feet. :)
And climbing the spire at St. Vitus' will wear you out! The day I went, it was unseasonably warm and someone had some serious gas :fart: Nice view though.

[godfry n. glad]

Like Joe, I have no experience of Europe and nothing of substance to offer. May I suggest Ploesti in Romania because, who knows, you might enjoy it?

Sorry, Romania is not on the itinerary. Ploesti? The only thing I can associate with Ploesti is Third Reich oil refineries that were major targets for carpet bombing near the end of WWII.

I don't think that Slovenia or Croatia will make it either. Particularly if we include Krakow. I think I'd rather do Salzburg and Neurenburg with Bratislava and Krakow. I don't want to try to cover too much ground. I'd figured to start in Berlin. That can change.

Hmmm... I wonder where the Hallstatt dig is?

[godfry n. glad]

Uhh...umm...

okay...

My lame home computer dumped me off when I went to search Google. <sigh> I'll just have to do that at work.

Anyway - Looking at a funky map of Europe, it seems that this might be a good loop:

* Berlin
* Potsdam
. Leipzig
. Nurnburg
. Munich
. Salzburg
. Linz
* Vienna
* Bratislava
* Budapest
.. Old City
* Krakow
.. Jewish Quarter
* Prague
.. Old City
... St. Vitus
* Dresden
* Berlin

* = must see, must stay overnight

Any other recommendations are welcome.

Anybody know anything about native wines in any of these areas?

[ChuckF]

St. Vitus' is part of the larger castle complex at Hradcanska (I think? Czech and memory are rusty.) It's all great fun, and easily accessible by metro. Kafka's house is up there too.

If you're a classical music fan at all, I recommend the Bedrich Smetana museum, right on die Moldau. The curator didn't speak English, but we got along OK in German. It's very interesting.

[raspberrybullets]

Oh you may be a bit too late in October, but you should see if they have any burciak. It's young wine, like before they ferment the wine (or whatever it is they do to wine to make it wine), it's that stuff. It's absolutely delicious. They have a festival each year round september/october just outside Bratislava and they sell it on the streets.

[Shake]

Can we assume there will be more pictures in the gallery after your return?

[godfry n. glad]

Can we assume there will be more pictures in the gallery after your return?

Uh... You think I should take a camera?

[maddog]

I went to Bratislava on a day trip (by bus not train) from Vienna. That was when it was still in Czechoslovakia (pre- Czech Republic/Slovakia split) in Cold War days. The Czechoslovakian police searched the bus very thoroughly at the border, dogs and everything, and several people's luggage was opened and spread out on tables under a canopy at the road checkpoint. We proceeded to the bus terminal, but I really had no idea where I was. The bus terminal was located someplace that looked like it was still bombed out after WWII. We followed the crowd on foot, b/c we had no idea where the town/city was. We walked along and found a Czechoslovakian department store, which was extremely pathetic. On one of the floors, there was a section of household type items, including stuffed toys. These toys were not plush. They looked like shaped bits of carpet underlayment and straw, with a rough burlap cover. Not nice to hold at all. Pickings were very sparse, and there were only a very few of these pathetic toys on the shelf. Large spaces of shelving were empty in this store. In the basement was the grocery department. This was much fuller and busier than the rest of the store. We bought some lemon wafers (passable) and a bottle of wine. We carried the wine home with us and opened it for a special occasion sometime in the next year; it was the worst wine I've ever tasted (not that I'm a connoisseur or anything).

After the department store, we went along and came to a plaza that had a bookstore. I have a very few words of German and somewhat less of Russian, but no Czech, yet we made the man inside understand that we were looking for the tourist office. I could not understand what he was saying to us, however. But he solved that problem! He told two young clerks to mind the store, and beckoned to us to come with him; he piled us in his car (risky, I know!) and drove us to the tourist information center, a few blocks away. You can't ask for nicer, friendlier people than we found in Bratislava!

At the tourist office, of course, they spoke English, and gave us a brochure about what to see in town. We opted for the municipal museum. To this day, I regard it as one of the best museums I've ever been to. You did not have to read one bit of the language to understand the displays, they were so well laid out. There was the usual sort of archaeological stuff, ancient tools and so on, including Roman and medieval things. Not so much in terms of quantity, but tastefully arranged in historical order. I remember the building interior being bright, cheerful and well-lit.

There was enough time before our return bus was scheduled to depart, to stop and have an early dinner/late lunch. Again, my few words of German were able to order us some delicious baked chicken, and the waiter obligingly took our picture. The goods in the stores may have been poor, but as I said, the people were generous, good-natured and kind. Needless to say, I remember Bratislava (the regional capital in its area) quite fondly, and would recommend a visit.

#442

[Stormlight]

Uhh...umm...

okay...

My lame home computer dumped me off when I went to search Google. <sigh> I'll just have to do that at work.

Anyway - Looking at a funky map of Europe, it seems that this might be a good loop:

* Berlin
* Potsdam
. Leipzig
. Nurnburg
. Munich
. Salzburg
. Linz
* Vienna
* Bratislava
* Budapest
.. Old City
* Krakow
.. Jewish Quarter
* Prague
.. Old City
... St. Vitus
* Dresden
* Berlin

* = must see, must stay overnight

Any other recommendations are welcome.

Anybody know anything about native wines in any of these areas?

I see ... you insist in avoiding Luxembourg at all costs! :P
Well, maybe you would be interested in Trier (http://www.trier.de/) or Saarbruecken (http://www.en.saarbruecken.de/index.jsp?kontext=main)

Both are really beautiful and pretty much guarantee a good time. :yup:

[maddog]

I have visited Munich as well. When I was a university year-abroad student in Edinburgh, Scotland, I lived in university-owned student housing. The university housing office tended to group all the foreigners together, so my roommates that year were both German. Lisa was from Munchen, and I visited her there a couple of times (before we lost contact). It was nice having a local (who spoke excellent English!) to squire me around.

Among other things . . .
I believe it’s on the Marienplatz (big public square) that the (or one of the) oldest operating clockworks (glockenspiel) gives its display of moving figures doing the “Cooper’s dance” three times a day.

We went to see the Neue (new) and Alte (old) Pinakotek(s) (art museums) where I got my first introduction to the Blue Riders school. I’ve loved Franz Marc ever since. Works by Albrecht Durer and Albrecht Altdorfer are there too.

The Residenzmuseum (former residence of the Bavarian monarchs, now converted to an interior decoration museum) boasts an adjunct “Treasury.” This is a fantastic collection of gems, including a 9th C. crown (with polished, but not faceted, gems) and a much later (1500’s) 2-ft-high figure of St. George (mounted on a horse) slaying the dragon, gold and enamel work, encrusted with rubies and other stones.

I think it was just outside the city that Schloss Nymphenburg lies; it was a royal summer palace, and was also famous for its porcelain, of nearly the same rank as Meissenware. Part of the palace is devoted to a museum and display of royal sets of porcelain, and the Schloss Nymphenburg factory is still (at least it was in the 1970’s and early 1980’s) producing. You could buy if you wanted to pay their prices!

Lisa took me to the Olympic Park to see where the 1972 Games were held.

We saw the outside of the Opera House, the Isartor (one of the [restored] medieval town gates), the old town hall (Alte Rathaus) and the very gothic new town hall (Neues Rathaus).

Daytrips from Munich can include the Andechs monastery, and a palace on an island in the Chiemsee; the unfinished palace was supposed to be a smaller version of King Louis XIV’s Versailles.

The U-Bahn (underground) makes travel in Munich easy.

There are lots more museums (science & technology, BMW, geology, paleontology, Greek and Roman antiquities, a toy museum, a “crystal” (gem & mineral) museum, and many others). A lot of the museums are free on Sunday. Neuschwanstein (Mad King Ludwig’s fairytale castle) is a day-trip away, as are Berchtesgaden (Hitler’s summer retreat in the Alps) and Bad Reichenhall (an Alpine spa resort and old salt town), both near Salzburg.

You never run out of stuff to see and do in and about Munchen.
#445

[JoeP]

Yeah, godfry, while you're there won't you see if Luxembourg really exists? Just don't blink ...

The aerial shots of chateaux in Karlsruhe (they were called chateaux by the French TV feed ... what's the German? Schloss?), during the Tour de France yesterday, were stunning. But I suppose aerial shots of any city's best features can be stunning.

[Stormlight]

The aerial shots of chateaux in Karlsruhe (they were called chateaux by the French TV feed ... what's the German? Schloss?), during the Tour de France yesterday, were stunning.

Yes, it's "Schloss". And I assume you mean Schloss Karlsruhe (http://you-are-here.com/europe/karlsruhe.html)

[Dingfod]

Schloss Karlsruhe (http://you-are-here.com/europe/karlsruhe.html)A cozy little cottage, no?

[godfry n. glad]

Yeah, godfry, while you're there won't you see if Luxembourg really exists? Just don't blink ...

Um... Because Luxembourg is in western Europe?

It's snug against the borders of Belgium and Germany.

Perhaps it was Leichtenstein that you geographical misfits were thinking?

[JoeP]

Now godfry is displaying mod tendencies. It's only a small derail, godfry...

[maddog]

:ignored:

:pout:
#447

[godfry n. glad]

Hey, Maddog...

I'm sorry. I'm trying to straighten out these confused types.

I rillyrilly appreciate your input. I'd already decided on Bratislava, but you hammered it home with your comments.

As for Munich... well, maybe. We'll see.

[godfry n. glad]

Schloss Karlsruhe (http://you-are-here.com/europe/karlsruhe.html)A cozy little cottage, no?

oh... That's just the gardener's tool shed.