At what age...

[Adora]

... Did you lose your virginity?

[godfry n. glad]

17. She was 16.

Those were the wonder years.

godfry

[viscousmemories]

16, she was 15. But I wasn't her first.

It was a cold concrete floor in a lecture room at Angell Hall in Ann Arbor, Michigan. She was dating the much older guy who would buy for me from time to time, I was so drunk I could barely stay conscious. It really was a quite magical event.

[Goliath]

23. <sigh> Yeah, I know, I'm pathetic. :(

[pescifish]

Oh, I dunno, Goliath.
Almost 21 for me. I was a junior in college, he was a freshman. We had been best friends for about 5 months at that point and one day we thought "Gee!"

I had a boyfriend for 7 months when I was 15/16, another when I was a senior in high school (he was in college). We made out like lovebirds, but neither of those relationships was right for sex and we didn't. I don't feel at all pathetic for waiting until the time that I did.

My first was with my best friend and we went on to have a 1.5 year romantic relationship and another couple of years as good friends until he emmigrated to Germany. We lived together my senior, his sophmore year of college. (One of the benefits to being on my own financially while in college--my parents were none too thrilled, but what the hell could they say?)

[Nil Desperandum]

I was 18.

It was supposed to be April, but she turned into a dipshit, lying bitch, so I fucked her best friend in an alcohol-induced blackout party; her best friend since 4.

I don't remember it, either. What a shame.

Better than the nasty, emotional, dependent alternative.

Chris

[LadyShea]

I refuse to answer on accounta it seeming gross to me NOW.

[Roland98]

20. For similar reasons as pescifish--had other relationships (or just hook-ups) where I easily could have, but didn't.

[RevDahlia]

I was 16, he was 17 and considerably more experienced than I. He was, and is, very cute. I was a misshapen, plain-as-pudding adolescent who couldn't believe her good fortune in snaring such a creature. Losing it was blah-to-okay; I hadn't yet acquired the knack of orgasming, and wouldn't for another two years. At the time I thought there was something wrong with me, and I felt like a frigid alien. Other than that, orgasms or no orgasms, sleeping with L made me feel happily empowered. It was fun. It felt good.

He cheated on me the whole time we were together. I didn't find that out until last year. After I got over the initial indignant phase, I realized that if I were he I would have cheated too. I was a typical puling, virginal creature who didn't know what she wanted and made his life hell as a result. He's still a dick. But I understand.

I'm married now, to the best lover on the planet, and I am damn glad I wasn't a virgin when I got hitched. I'm experienced and happy about it, and hubby is happy too (even if he doesn't know exactly how experienced I am.)

</TMI>

[catalyst]

Um, well, 13.

I was not exactly the sort of child who should have been left unattended.

[pescifish]

I was not exactly the sort of child who should have been left unattended.
Surely there was at least one other person in attendance during this event?

[Scotty]

Somebody is pathetic for not having sex until 23?

You got nothin on me, buddy, meet Sir Pathetic. I am not even going to say it now, cause I feel so pathetic.

I think somewhere else I said I was lame...

-Scott

[Shake]

Um, well, 13.

I was not exactly the sort of child who should have been left unattended.
Was? Oh yeah, you're an adult now! :P

For me, it was 20. I think she was the same age, but I definitely wasn't her first.

(Woo hoo! Post #42!)

[JoeP]

19.

Adora, how about you? You can't post this question and duck the answer! :P

[catalyst]

Surely there was at least one other person in attendance during this event?

She was not the sort who should have been left alone either, evidently.

[dave_a]

I was 18, she was 15 or 16 at the time. She is now my wife. Haven't played on a very wide field, but I like the hometeam well enough :yup:

Now, if we count anal and oral then I was younger, but I was 18 the first time willy entered the love tunnel.

[D. Scarlatti]

You may have just admitted to the commission of felony sexual assault.

[Scotty]

You may have just admitted to the commission of felony sexual assault.
In what state?

Lucky he married her.

-Scott

[D. Scarlatti]

Wisconsin. I don't think the subsequent marriage matters, since even being married at the time of the offense is not a bar to prosecution. However, the latter statute, 948.02 (4), refers to "the complainant," and we can assume for the purposes of this thread that she was not complaining.

[Scotty]

Wait, let me see if I can do my posts in smiley's.

"In what state?" :sheepshag:: (okay, close visually)

"Lucky he married her" :gossip:

Couldn't find exactly what I wanted, but close enough ;)

-Scott

[Beth]

Hmmm...I cannot say. It's rather sad.

[AspenMama]

21 or 22-- can't remember. It was awful and if I could go back, I'd not have chosen that guy to "get it over with". Wonder whatever happened to him.

Nil-- what a horrible story.

[Adora]

Adora, how about you? You can't post this question and duck the answer! :P

Unless you perhaps think about why I would start such a thread, and why I would have no reason to comment... ¬_¬;

[Scotty]

Don't worry Adora, you have a lot of years to go before you become pathetic ;)

I KNOW these things.

-Scott

[Dlanod]

I was 22, they were 26 and 33 (I think.) Of course when this opportunity arose I didn't mention the fact that I was a virgin. They just assumed I was more experienced than I was when they made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

Getting a later start is NOT pathetic. I think it can, actually, be a good sign of maturity. My personal bias may be showing...

- Donald

[dave_a]

You may have just admitted to the commission of felony sexual assault.

I did. Our birthdays are 2 years and a tad under 1 month apart so there was a 3 week window when I was 18 and she was 15. We had been dating for a year or so before that. I was a high school senior and she a Freshman (3 year highschool).

Anyway, during this window we were parked in a field that I used to play in as a kid. We went there because it was private and a fun place to get it on. We had a 6 pack of beer and the windows were all steamed up when we see a cop entering the area. One way in and out so no escape possible. Since we were naked it was all we could do to get our clothes on before the cop got there and the beer I forgot about until the last second so I opened my door with the interior light turned off and tossed it under the car.

Cop comes up and asks what we are doing and I say "Talking". hehehe, the cop was having none of that. He found the beer and asked if it was mine. I said no. He said, it's still cold. I said "it's cold outside". He asked for my license, I gave it to him. He asked how old she was and she said "15".

This cop could have made my life a complete hell. He simply said "15, huh?", laughed, poured out the beer and told us to leave the area.

Can you say "lucky bastard"?

[Adora]

Don't worry Adora, you have a lot of years to go before you become pathetic ;)
I KNOW these things.
-Scott

Thank you for the kind words. Unfortunately, they do nothing to prevent the current embarrasment and requirements for lies when such a topic is raised with peers/friends. Nor the utter crap feeling you get about it when you ponder it too much.

Yeah, I know, man with no donkey and all that shit, but whatever.

[Scotty]

The funny thing, is once you are a bit older, it never really comes up anymore. At least, nobody cares as much.

When those situations come up, what I did, and do even now because that is still personal to me, is to let them talk about it. Just spur them on, by listening and just noding. You don't have to agree, just give no cues except interest.

I find people are very interested in themselves and are willing to talk your ear off.

Believe me, I had to do that a lot. I have a way, which is hard to describe, of just talking around a subject without letting on that I am not agreeing or disagreeing with them. One of the ways to do that is to just not say anything when they ask questions, just laugh, then don't answer and go on with the conversation.

I wouldn't personally feel bad about the situation, not after what I have been through. As far as I am concerned, it is secondary to the relationship.

Now, I just talked around the subject above, I didn't say what exactly I was talking about, the only way you would know was becaue of the subject of the thread.

Learn it, it is a good tactic. :)

-Scott

[Clutch Munny]

I've always been vastly more interested in the next time, than in the first time, or any past time for that matter.

[Talulah]

I was 19. First kiss, first time I had sex, all in the same night.

[Adora]

The funny thing, is once you are a bit older, it never really comes up anymore.

This is what I was told 5 years ago. How much fucking longer do I have to wait?

When those situations come up, what I did, and do even now because that is still personal to me, is to let them talk about it. Just spur them on, by listening and just noding. You don't have to agree, just give no cues except interest.

Yeah, but sometimes they don't let you get away with it. And yes, I know I could tell them to fuck off MYOB and all that, but this was a friend who I hadn't seen in a while and I didn't want to be like that.

I wouldn't personally feel bad about the situation, not after what I have been through. As far as I am concerned, it is secondary to the relationship.

Who said anything about relationships? I'm talking about shagging, not flowers and anniverseries.

[livius drusus]

This is what I was told 5 years ago. How much fucking longer do I have to wait?

I believe the rule is you have to be nowhere near a college or institution of higher learning (aka, hormone factory) before people stop giving a rat's ass about whether you've done it.

[AspenMama]

Adora-- how old are you, if you don't mind me asking? And Scotty?

[Gawen]

17. Don't remember much but that she picked ME up on the subway...somewhere north of San Fransisco...and went to her house.

Now don't switch the question to "How old were you when you stopped having sex?"....*grinnin*...

[viscousmemories]

Don't remember much but that she picked ME up on the subway...
Wow! She must've been strong. :P

[Nil Desperandum]

Aspen, I spared you the gory details, but I do not take well to being lied to, being taken advantage of, or being led by the short and curlies.

I don't let my dick think for me, although sometime's I DO act on its behalf.

As I mentioned previous, it spared me a lot of problems.

Adora, why the hostility?
It's almost as if you are trying to pressure yourself into some sort of "normal" situation whereby you should have fucked someone already, since it isn't about flowers and anniversaries.

Chrsi

[Scotty]

How old am I? Well, 39 tomorrow.

Adora, if they aren't letting you "get away with it", then I don't really know what to say, because obviously that is the only thing that is important to them, not how you feel.

Forcing you to talk about something you don't want to, isn't really very nice (or something you feel uncomfortable talking about). They should respect your privacy as it is none of their business. I know it isn't something you can brush off, or tell them where to put their comments every single time. They have to understand you and your situation and leave it alone. It isn't your problem, and what you are experiencing isn't a problem. It only is to them.

What I was getting at with the relationships is that the sex isn't the only portion people should concentrate on. If what _they_ are talking about is sex, then they really don't have any relationship at all, just hormone driven lust (which is fine, I am not dismissing that). If they are talking about sex from the point of view of trying to understand or make more enjoyable, then that again is different.

If you have the right person who cares about you and loves you it makes it all worth the wait, even though hormone driven uncontrolable sex would probably be just great and totally fun, it doesn't make your life.

I am sure with little prodding you could get 10 guys lined up to "help" you with this "problem", if that is what you really wanted. Somehow, it may not be exactly what you desire.

-Scott

[Gawen]

Wow! She must've been strong. :PShe was strong in her persuasion...I was weak...*grinnin*

Fight her off as I could, she ultimately won... :yup:

[godfry n. glad]

I guess I'm a little perplexed, Adora.

Given your subsequent responses, I'm not quite sure as to your motivation for asking the question in your OP.

What does it matter what "everybody else" experienced? Your sex life is your business, unless you decide otherwise. Did you ask because you were forthcoming with a friend and that resulted in some kind of humiliation or peer pressure? I'd suggest that if you don't wish to change your status and don't want to make that public that you just respond with, "That's private, I don't share it. It's none of your business."

If you did decide to share it and were made to feel uncomfortable about it, then you might want to question the relationship you have with those causing your discomfort. It sounds like they might be insensitive.

godfry

[dave_a]

Who said anything about relationships? I'm talking about shagging, not flowers and anniverseries.

Finding a long term love relationship can be extremely challenging, but I fail to see how a woman, pretty much without regard to physical appearance or personality can find it difficult to simply get "shagged".

If simply getting shagged is *all* you want at this point then go to a club and make eye contact with guys. When one appraoches be nice and say 'yes' a lot. That ought to do it.

[viscousmemories]

If simply getting shagged is *all* you want at this point then go to a club and make eye contact with guys. When one appraoches be nice and say 'yes' a lot. That ought to do it.
Most women I've met don't mean that's all they want. Instead they typically want to shag with someone they find attractive (physically and otherwise). Which for most women I know eliminates 99.9% of the guys at clubs.

And people who dredge up tired old cliche's. :P

[dave_a]

Most women I've met don't mean that's all they want. Instead they typically want to shag with someone they find attractive (physically and otherwise). Which for most women I know eliminates 99.9% of the guys at clubs.

And people who dredge up tired old cliche's. :P

Just taking the statements at face value.

It may not be pretty, it may be a cliche, but it works in a utilitarian way.

I don't really suggest it, but to each their own.

[Penni]

I was 16, and I'm glad I got it over with. It was pretty blah.

The ironic thing is, now that I am older and we're all more experienced, it's about 50 billion times better, but I don't have the time to do it as often as when I was in HS or college. Sad.

Anyway, I've also learned sex is nothing to even bother concentrating on. It's like eating. Sometimes you really, really want to do it. Sometimes you do it when you really aren't hungry/in the mood. Sometimes it's a great meal, sometimes it's just satisfying a need. But, for me, it's never something to get that worked up about.

[viscousmemories]

Just taking the statements at face value.

It may not be pretty, it may be a cliche, but it works in a utilitarian way.

I don't really suggest it, but to each their own.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you if I did. But I believed that cliche for most of my life too, and felt the need to debunk it. The thing is it doesn't work in a utilitarian way unless the person in question is looking exclusively for "sex with a human being". Since I have never met a woman who would settle for sex with just any human being, the idea that women can just go to a club, smile, and "get what they want" is untrue.

I know I'm debating here in a lighthearted sex thread, but I think it's important to confront common myths about "what women want" and how they can go about getting it. I think perpetuating such myths is demeaning.

[JoeP]

Thank you for the kind words. Unfortunately, they do nothing to prevent the current embarrasment and requirements for lies when such a topic is raised with peers/friends. Nor the utter crap feeling you get about it when you ponder it too much.

Yeah, I know, man with no donkey and all that shit, but whatever.

Are these friends ("friends") who already know you well? Otherwise I'd recommend maximum bullshit and claiming you're fundi, no sex before marriage.

Thing is, some of the comments you've got here are right: it's not such a big deal later, it's definitely less of a big deal away from colleges etc (that's a good point), and it's most definitely of all none of anyone else's business: and how you feel is right too. I remember that crap feeling - I'm a nerd and a social failure and everyone knows and is laughing at me. I know exactly why you asked this, to check you're not a freak: and you're not.

Lying should be the answer but embarrassment is kind of self-reinforcing. But it's a heap of nonsense and you just have to keep telling yourself that the way you feel isn't how you really are, and all that positive thinking kind of shit.

[dave_a]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you if I did. But I believed that cliche for most of my life too, and felt the need to debunk it. The thing is it doesn't work in a utilitarian way unless the person in question is looking exclusively for "sex with a human being". Since I have never met a woman who would settle for sex with just any human being, the idea that women can just go to a club, smile, and "get what they want" is untrue.

I know I'm debating here in a lighthearted sex thread, but I think it's important to confront common myths about "what women want" and how they can go about getting it. I think perpetuating such myths is demeaning.

But I don't think I perpetuated any myth about "what women want". As a man I have no clue what women want other than some theories that are based upon personal observations which may or may not be at all relevant to real life.

It was Adora who *stated* she simply wanted to get shagged. It isn't me who says women simply want to get shagged, it was a woman who typed that *she* just wanted to get shagged.

She may or may not have *meant* what she typed, but I am not a mind reader so I just took the statement at face value.

Now, I would suggest that it is actually *you* who is perpetuating myths regarding female sexuality when you write "Since I have never met a woman who would settle for sex with just any human being, the idea that women can just go to a club, smile, and "get what they want" is untrue. "

Implicit in this statement is that no women want just sex with a fairly random stranger. Also implicit is that women don't enjoy going to a club for the sole purpose of picking up or getting picked up and shagging. <--(i like that word.)

I would think that "Sex and the City" would have corrected you on your 1950s ideas of female sexuality :D

And no, you didn't cause me any offense with your post, reading it as well as typing my response was done with a smile on my face. To me this is a lighthearted, sitting around the bong type conversation that is interesting, but probably of no importance at all in the long run. After all, we are 2 guys debating what women want. Could a conversation possibly be any less relevant? :P

[viscousmemories]

Yo dantonac,

First, I'm very glad you're taking this as a conversation around the bong. I assure you that's all most of my conversations are, no matter how passionate I am about the issue. In the end I am very well aware of the fact that I am far from a moral authority, much less the moral authority. :pimp:

But I don't think I perpetuated any myth about "what women want". As a man I have no clue what women want other than some theories that are based upon personal observations which may or may not be at all relevant to real life.

It was Adora who *stated* she simply wanted to get shagged. It isn't me who says women simply want to get shagged, it was a woman who typed that *she* just wanted to get shagged.

She may or may not have *meant* what she typed, but I am not a mind reader so I just took the statement at face value.
Ah, but you said:

[...]I fail to see how a woman, pretty much without regard to physical appearance or personality can find it difficult to simply get "shagged".
Thereby being the first to generalize about 'women'.

Now, I would suggest that it is actually *you* who is perpetuating myths regarding female sexuality when you write "Since I have never met a woman who would settle for sex with just any human being, the idea that women can just go to a club, smile, and "get what they want" is untrue. "

Implicit in this statement is that no women want just sex with a fairly random stranger. Also implicit is that women don't enjoy going to a club for the sole purpose of picking up or getting picked up and shagging. <--(i like that word.)

I would think that "Sex and the City" would have corrected you on your 1950s ideas of female sexuality :D
Actually you were right about my statement being fallacious, but wrong about why. It's fallacious because it's purely anecdotal. :)

It wasn't implicit in my comment that no women want sex with a fairly random stranger or that women don't enjoy going to a club with the sole purpose being to find someone to shag. All I was saying is that I've never met a woman who uses "is a human being" as the sole criterion in choosing a sex partner.

And no, you didn't cause me any offense with your post, reading it as well as typing my response was done with a smile on my face. To me this is a lighthearted, sitting around the bong type conversation that is interesting, but probably of no importance at all in the long run. After all, we are 2 guys debating what women want. Could a conversation possibly be any less relevant? :P
Good. In fact that last sentence made me laugh out loud with how true it is. I also have good reason to believe there are women here who probably think I'm full of shit on this too, so there's even more evidence that I'm not judging ya. :)

[godfry n. glad]

Hey...guys...

Are we just sittin' around the bong, or are we passing it around?

If it's the latter, don't Bogart, pass it over to me.

godfry

[AspenMama]

Of course when this opportunity arose I didn't mention the fact that I was a virgin.

Giggle. You said arose.

[dave_a]

Hey...guys...

Are we just sittin' around the bong, or are we passing it around?

If it's the latter, don't Bogart, pass it over to me.

godfry

Sorry, but it's too large to pass around. You are welcome to sit around it with us though. It's one of those multi, long hosed octopus looking bongs so there's always an open spot.
:cloud9:

[dave_a]

Ah, but you said:

[...]I fail to see how a woman, pretty much without regard to physical appearance or personality can find it difficult to simply get "shagged".

Thereby being the first to generalize about 'women'.

Not so, it was a generalization about men, not women. If a woman simply wants to get shagged she can do so easily by simply doing what I suggested. This is because men are predictable and incredibly easy. Not all men, but enough men that this 'technique' works reliably. I can get away with generalizing and making stereotypical comments about men because I am one. :D

It wasn't implicit in my comment that no women want sex with a fairly random stranger or that women don't enjoy going to a club with the sole purpose being to find someone to shag. All I was saying is that I've never met a woman who uses "is a human being" as the sole criterion in choosing a sex partner.

I didn't imply that many women do use this criteria, I suggested going to a club filled with lots of men for a woman who just wants to fuck someone. Ultimately what a woman wants is her business and I have no idea what percentage of women, at some point in their lives, feel like 'being human' is enough of a qualification for sex. Some women have been known to get it on with dogs and farm animals so obviously there is at least a tiny minority for whom being human isn't even a qualification. :eek:

[viscousmemories]

I didn't imply that many women do use this criteria, I suggested going to a club filled with lots of men for a woman who just wants to fuck someone.
Right, see... there you're doing it again. You're implying that a woman who just wants to fuck someone is a woman who just wants to fuck anyone.

Put simply, I was talking to a woman friend once and said something along the lines of what you said. Probably verbatim, actually. Something like, "You're lucky. If you feel like getting laid all you have to do is go to the club, smile and nod and some guy will approach you." To which she replied, "Well yeah, I'm sure all kinds of guys will approach me. That doesn't mean there will be one I have any desire to fuck."

So there you have it! Scientific evidence!

[godfry n. glad]

Giggle. You said arose.

And he called what arose "this opportunity"....interesting pet name.

Does opportunity come knocking? <snort>

godfry

[Roland98]

But, for me, it's never something to get that worked up about.

(To continue the food analogy) Unless you're starving! ;)

[Adora]

For the record, I'm 20. Yeah yeah, I know. "You're not that pathetic yet" and all that shit you said. But using your arguments against you, it doesn't really matter what sliding-scales of patheticness you have, does it, since it's only about what I think, right?

What I was getting at with the relationships is that the sex isn't the only portion people should concentrate on. If what _they_ are talking about is sex, then they really don't have any relationship at all, just hormone driven lust (which is fine, I am not dismissing that). If they are talking about sex from the point of view of trying to understand or make more enjoyable, then that again is different.

Actually, this is funny, because the conversation in question was regarding "faking it" to keep your male partner happy. And person who was prodding me about it was talking about how she's been pretty much faking it every time for the past 2 years. For all my hangups about my virginity, I think that's pretty fucking pathetic, no matter how much she loves him. It wasn't a matter of focusing on sex, more a sort of random disbelief expressed at a certain point in time. I mean, maybe her original view of me didn't fit with a "virgin" thing, so maybe it wasn't as antagonistic as it seemed and she was just really surprised to hear it. *shrugs* I'm not psychic though. But even if it wasn't meant to be as mean-spirited as it was, it just kind of hit close to home.

Are these friends ("friends") who already know you well? Otherwise I'd recommend maximum bullshit and claiming you're fundi, no sex before marriage.

They know me well to a certain degree (y'know, being an introvert and all). And they know me well enough to know what I think about Fundies and no-sex-before-marriage anyway. Cute idea though.

Dan- nice comments and all, but I've been there, done that, hasn't worked. The first time, nice guy, thought I had a chance, I ended up getting spewed/collapsed on which wasn't nice at all. The other time a person I was at the bar with stole my target right when I thought I might have had a chance, so that kind of ruined that, since being in a bad mood isn't particularly attractive. And the last time, well, police doing a sniffer-dog-drug-raid on the bar kind of ruined any chances, and I'd gone to a gay bar deciding maybe my chances with my own sex could be better. Thus, I've kind of decided to give-the-fuck-up on this plan of action. It's just not fucking worth the trouble. That, and I fucking hate clubs/bars now.

[Scotty]

:) That was pretty funny. Leave it to me.

Well Adora, I think you are pretty darn special, and quite talented.

I wish I could give you something more, some other tidbit of wisdom, something that would make a difference.

Maybe some sort of porn I could write just for you... :D

-Scott

[dave_a]

So there you have it! Scientific evidence!

Well under the weight of this newly introduced evidence I have no choice other than to concede.
:D

[dave_a]

Dan- nice comments and all, but I've been there, done that, hasn't worked. The first time, nice guy, thought I had a chance, I ended up getting spewed/collapsed on which wasn't nice at all. The other time a person I was at the bar with stole my target right when I thought I might have had a chance, so that kind of ruined that, since being in a bad mood isn't particularly attractive. And the last time, well, police doing a sniffer-dog-drug-raid on the bar kind of ruined any chances, and I'd gone to a gay bar deciding maybe my chances with my own sex could be better. Thus, I've kind of decided to give-the-fuck-up on this plan of action. It's just not fucking worth the trouble. That, and I fucking hate clubs/bars now.

I'm Dave, actually, not that you would know that from my username. D is the initial of my first name and Antonac is part of my last. So, now that we have been formally introduced
:D

So, you tried my suggestion previously and you got puked on, had a friend take the guy you were into, and had some kind of encounter with a police dog. You didn't mention what went wrong at the lesbian bar, kind of curious about that so feel free to share :popcorn:

I just don't know what to tell you at this point. Perhaps there is a god and s/he just doesn't want you to get laid for whatever reason.

Well, if at first you don't succeed, try, try and try again. Either that or just don't worry about it. The latter is probably the best option unless you can't stop worrying about it in which case go back to the bar, without a jerk girlfriend and hope no police dogs show up. Oh, and that you don't get puked on again.

If only I knew women such as yourself when I was 20. Well, actually I might have been the guy who puked on you at that age. Lots of drinking and all. :D

[Dingfod]

Not so, it was a generalization about men, not women. If a woman simply wants to get shagged she can do so easily by simply doing what I suggested. Especially at closing time*.

*not so obscure country music song reference.

[Dingfod]

I lost my virginity at age 20 on my wedding night with my 18 year old bride. Nord lows, this was not for the lack of trying. I've never had another partner since. Anything I may have said to the contrary previously was a testosterone induced lie.

[dave_a]

I lost my virginity at age 20 on my wedding night with my 18 year old bride. Nord lows, this was not for the lack of trying. I've never had another partner since. Anything I may have said to the contrary previously was a testosterone induced lie.

When I was a christian fundy I used to say "I have never had sex with anyone other than my wife." I simply didn't mention the fact that sex was defined in a Bill Clinton style and the woman wasn't my wife at the time.

In seriousness I do think there is something very special about only ever having had sex with one's spouse. I don't think it is necessarily better than having had sex with 500 people before wedding, but I do think it is special in a "you are the one I want to walk through life with" kind of way.

We live in an instant gratification, quick fix, I want it now culture and the older way (if there ever actually was an older way) does seem quite romantic.

[Dingfod]

Yeah, but...

...but, I walked past a table of lovely young ladies and all I could think was, "Just once? Just once in my life?"

/me is a perv sometimes

[dave_a]

Yeah, but...

...but, I walked past a table of lovely young ladies and all I could think was, "Just once? Just once in my life?"

* warrenly is a perv sometimes

While I had sex with others prior to my wife that according to a Clinton style definition didn't really count as sex I do understand where you are coming from. There are certain porn style sex acts that my wife simply isn't into.

I used to resent that.

However I then considered the cost of maintaining a wife and a mistress and realized it was too expensive in terms of time. I have no idea how polygamists handle it. I considered prostitutes, but that just isn't my thing.

I have no solution for you other than to consider the benefits rather than the drawbacks. A platitude? Yes. But there is no utopia regardless of how much we wish there were. If we got utopia I doubt we would know what to do with it.

There are literally thousands if not tens of thousands of women I could potentially have sex with if I was willing to give up what I have now, but in the end it would just be an orgasm. When all is said and done would I be happier and more content than I am now? I really doubt it.
Happiness and contentment are a state of mind, in my opinion.

Sorry if it seems like I am speaking in platitudes and sentimental gibberish, but I am up past my bedtime and still drinking rum and cokes and I tend to get this way under such circumstances.
:D

[Dlanod]

And he called what arose "this opportunity"....interesting pet name.


My Precious was already taken.

My first time experience was actually rather humorous in retrospect. I was leaving a job to return to college and two of my co-workers wanted to take me out for a few drinks. It sounded like a good time, especially if they were buying.

After the first beer the conversation, oddly (;)), turned toward sex. Both of these women were older than me and well experienced. They related a number of stories that made my eyes go wide, at least on the inside. All the while I maintained an engaged, but “been there, done that” attitude. When the “what is the wildest sex you’ve ever had?” question came up I honestly replied that I had never, really, had any wild sex to speak of. I certainly didn’t add that I had never, actually, had any tame sex either. I was inexperienced, not stupid.

One of the women, my boss, excused herself to go to the restroom. The remaining woman, conspiratorially, leaned in and quietly said that my boss was too chicken to ask me but she would: “are you interested in going to bed with the two of us tonight?”

About a billion thoughts and images flashed through my mind. Oh, my god! Did she just ask what I think she asked? Be cool! Oh, my god! Don’t mess this up, you won’t get this chance again no matter how long you live! Be cool! Calm down! Sex! All right! Be Cool!

I responded in my best calm, worldly voice, “Yeah, that sounds like it could be fun.” When my boss came back we paid our bill and headed to her place. There I got to put in to practice all the things I had read about for the past seven years. All that book learning paid off!

I was still a shy guy when it came to women, but I was much more comfortable in my own sexuality after that experience. I realized that I wasn’t pathetic and I could bring pleasure to another person. Indeed two people if called upon. :yup: I was still a geek and shy, but now I knew that I could be a sexual, shy geek! It opened up a world of experiences. Of course having a ménage-a-trois as one’s first sexual experience does set the bar rather high for future activities.

Years later I confessed to one of the women that I had been a virgin when we had our night of fun. She was surprised and said that if they had known they probably would not have had the nerve to even ask me. It confirmed to me that while honesty is the best policy, full disclosure is not always necessary. ;)

- Donald

[godfry n. glad]

Okay... Dlanod, I have one word for you: envy.

Your first experience is one of the recurring fantasies of _my_ sex life and it has never, ever, happened to me and I never expect it to....

Envy, envy, envy.

godfry

(Just out of curiosity, how was it working with your boss after your experience?)

[viscousmemories]

It's official now. I hate dlanod. Just for the record. :fuming:

[Dlanod]

Okay... Dlanod, I have one word for you: envy.

Your first experience is one of the recurring fantasies of _my_ sex life and it has never, ever, happened to me and I never expect it to....

Envy, envy, envy.

(Just out of curiosity, how was it working with your boss after your experience?)

We got along just fine. I was only working there another week or so before I left town to return to college. The type of work I was doing didn't require a lot of oversight and it wasn't a position that had any chance of advancement. It was a non-issue. Though it would have been nice to have started sooner. ;)

Over the next year or two we occassionally hooked up when I was home visiting, but it was never anything serious. I certainly would not object to repeating the experience, but it really is hard to focus on more than one person at a time. I do appreciate that it is many a man's fantasy, but I also know that I had very little to do with making this fantasy come true. It certainly wasn't on the top of my fantasy list, having sex was. I don't relate this story very often because even I find it hard to believe at times. Like many fortunate things in life I was just in the right place at the right time. If I had to be the instigator it would never have happened. If it hadn't happened I probably would have been a virgin for a while longer, I'm sure.

It certainly wouldn't have been the end of the world though. I had long since realized that it didn't do any good to fret about my sex life, or lack there of. I had learned to relax and be in the moment, be open to the possibilities in life. Once I started just being myself and getting involved in activities that interested me I became more interesting to other people. This made the concept of sexual intimacy less scary and voila I had more sex. So much of life and our interactions with other people are tied into our fear of rejection and need for approval. Once you get past that, and it is not always easy, the world is an infinitely interesting and exciting place.

Sorry for the tangent, but I thought that Adora might find some of these comments helpful. Perhaps not.

- Donald

[Dlanod]

It's official now. I hate dlanod. Just for the record. :fuming:

Would you believe me if I told you that it was the worst sex I ever had? :wink:

- Donald

[viscousmemories]

Would you believe me if I told you that it was the worst sex I ever had? :wink:

- Donald
Oh I'm certain of it. It's that or you're lying. It has to be. It has to.

[AspenMama]

Oh I'm certain of it. It's that or you're lying. It has to be. It has to.
Once I caught a fish soooo big that it hauled my canoe around the lake for 6 days... all I had to survive on was a thermos of rich black coffee and a bottle of brandy... around and around.... up and down the lake we sped. It was me and the fish. Then, on the 7th day, two burly men who both happened to be French paddled over to my boat, supplemented my stores with good French wine, cheese and chocolate.

Later, they removed the hook from the fish's mouth, because I hate that part and then we all skinny dipped in the pool under the waterfall before they fried the fish for me in a nice wine sauce with mushrooms... I could go on, but you just wouldn't believe what happened next. :D

[Nil Desperandum]

Once I caught a fish soooo big that it hauled my canoe around the lake for 6 days... all I had to survive on was a thermos of rich black coffee and a bottle of brandy... around and around.... up and down the lake we sped. It was me and the fish. Then, on the 7th day, two burly men who both happened to be French paddled over to my boat, supplemented my stores with good French wine, cheese and chocolate.

Later, they removed the hook from the fish's mouth, because I hate that part and then we all skinny dipped in the pool under the waterfall before they fried the fish for me in a nice wine sauce with mushrooms... I could go on, but you just wouldn't believe what happened next. :D

You all proceeded to stomp grapes into wine? :P

[Dlanod]

Then, on the 7th day, two burly men who both happened to be French paddled over to my boat, supplemented my stores with good French wine, cheese and chocolate.


That was me and my buddy Jacques. I had totally forgotten about that trip. If memory serves me correct you looked mighty fine in your birthday suit. Thanks for the memories...

- Donald

[JoeP]

For the record, I'm 20. Yeah yeah, I know. "You're not that pathetic yet" and all that shit you said. But using your arguments against you, it doesn't really matter what sliding-scales of patheticness you have, does it, since it's only about what I think, right?
You're 20? Fuck you, to use a singularly inappropriate insult. :D It may just be pathetic to worry about it at that age. I was wondering if you were like 26.

Anyway, all the helpful comments and abuse aren't likely to stop you feeling pathetic. Gotta live with it. Your genes don't want you to be a virgin, after all.

See you in a week (internet-free holiday starts tomorrow).

joe

[Adora]

You didn't mention what went wrong at the lesbian bar, kind of curious about that so feel free to share.

The cops was what went wrong. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my first post. They tend to focus on certain bars & nightclubs they believe to have more designer drugs in them with sniffer dogs, so that makes heavy-rave places and gay bars targets. It was a horrible experience, even though I never touch anything illegal, just because it's never nice being pushed against a wall and having a mutt sniff you.

I just don't know what to tell you at this point. Perhaps there is a god and s/he just doesn't want you to get laid for whatever reason.

If I was a theist, everything considered (there's more than what I've divulged here, obviously) this would be my conclusion as well. I guess I could be glad I'm not... or I may not be glad...

Either that or just don't worry about it.

I know, I know. It only becomes something that creeps into my mind whenever something like this happens these days, and I wasn't feel particularly emotionally stable for the past couple of days, so that's the excuse I'm giving for starting this thread and all.

[solidsquid]

I lost my virginity at the age of 20. Not for lack of trying really hard to lose it sooner though.

[rhart]

I was in the eight grade. I had lost a bet on the super bowl with the girl I was dating. She won and gave me a hickey necklace around my neck then down..... It wasn't that great and it was embarrassing to go to school and explain the marks to teachers (Gym).

Practice doesn't make you perfect, but you sure can improve.

Anyways, Adora you could have started with one of the many clumsy and careless people around your age up to this point. Maturity seems to be a big factor in male performance.


Richard

PS. Wow, this is a wierd first post. I hope to see you all around.

[livius drusus]

I think it's a charming first post. Welcome to FF, rhart. :wave:

[Sweetie]

I was 15 and he was 17.

I was a bit like you Adora, in that my virginity was something I wanted to get rid so I could get on with my sex life.

I just wanted to say, though it might have been said before, but that a "watched pot never boils." In my life anyways, when I want things to happen, they never do and when I don't, they do, though sometimes there's exceptions.

I find too, that it's true that those who are looking for husbands don't find them (just for example), because they are trying too hard of course, and those that relax and forget about the goal and just enjoy the process of reaching it are generally those that tend to achieve it more often than not. Those who can enjoy what they've got, are happy with where they are, even though they may want something that's different and may agree that there can be improvements, these people tend to generate an air of confidence, that can be very attractive, more so than even looks, like flies to honey.

I wanted to add though, that of course, opening the door to sex is in a way, opening a door to a new world, the problem is, it's often like this one. Lots of risks, few payoffs, expectations, emotions, physical risks, etc. I calculated the odds and decided that the best odds were to have a relationship and then sex, but that is indeed, just me.

:yup:

[seebs]

Depends on how technical you want to be about what is or isn't sex, somewhere between 16 and... Hmm. 22 or so?

[godfry n. glad]

Depends on how technical you want to be about what is or isn't sex, somewhere between 16 and... Hmm. 22 or so?

Hmmm....

Well, seebs, the OPQ wasn't, "At what age did you first have sex?"
It was, "At what age did you lose your virginity?"
A bit narrower than the usual "sex",
but actually still in need of specificity.

I must admit, I interpreted it a certain way,
what Adora meant to ask, I can't really say.

So... Adora?

Can you give us specifics on "lose" and "virginity"?
Is it innocence or anatomy; or something else entirely?

Thanks in advance. :wink:

godfry

Evidently we have some Clintonians amongst us.

[Adora]

*shrugs* Honestly, I'm going to leave this open. It could mean, for the ladies, that it was the first time they were with another woman, if they're lesbians. Or with the guys, it could just be the first time they did the deed, with a man or a woman. I know a guy who, even though he had sex beforehand, claims he didn't really lose his virginity til he was 18 because that's when he first made a girl come, and that's what he counts it from. Most people make up their own minds, though generally the consensus is "first time you had heterosexual intercourse".

[godfry n. glad]

Interesting.

My question was more whether manual sex, oral sex and/or anal sex counted as "losing one's virginity" as versus a strict interpretation of vaginal penetration by a penis. (Homosexuals will have to provide their own standard...I will not presume.)

I'm fairly familiar with mutual masturbation. Both parties "come" (i.e., experience an orgasm) in this manner, but there has been no genitalia to genitalia contact. Does that count? (Didn't in my book.) If it does, we can roll my date back a year. Same with oral sex. In my youth, oral sex was one way to stimulate each other to orgasm without risking impregnation. Does that count? They all qualify as "intercourse"....

As you probably surmise, I had a lot of sex (sexual activity leading to mutually induced orgasm) before I "lost my virginity", when I first placed my genitalia inside the genitalia of a willing and eager young woman. In my case, it was a first for both of us and done in the spirit of mutual experimentation. That was an experiment which had to be repeatedly retested.

So that was my interpretation of the question. Is it anywhere close?

godfry n. glad

[Adora]

I dunno, do you want it to be? Yes, I am being a pain-in-the-arse about this, because honestly, I don't care. Since it is such an event in some people's lives, in certain ways and such, I leave it up to them. If you want to count it from XY or Z, doesn't bother me. Another version I had of it yesterday was when a male gay friend said he counts it from the first time he had anal sex with a man, even though he'd had intercourse with women before that.

[godfry n. glad]

I dunno, do you want it to be?

:huh?:

Noooo.... I didn't "want it to be" anything, other than perhaps a little more defined. I rather blythely answered the questions without considering that there was room for interpretation. When seebs offered his "window of opportunity" approach to losing one's virginity, I had to rethink. And since you had posed the question, I came back to you to see what you meant by the terms.

It was not meant as an attack. I do not think you're being a pain-in-th-arse at all. I think you've been uncommonly open about a very sensitive issue. I am not doing this to make you uncomfortable. I'm doing this because you, and anybody in this thread, is talking about something that usually doesn't come up in daily conversation. I'm curious. So... I'm interested in definition of what it is we're talking about, particularly because there does seem to be a variety of interpretations.

Perhaps all would be more comfortable with seebs defining his parameters for two fairly variant ages at which a singular event occurred?

Is that a possibility?

godfry

[pescifish]

Since it is such an event in some people's lives, in certain ways and such, I leave it up to them. If you want to count it from XY or Z, doesn't bother me.
I think I understand this part. If this sort of topic ever does come up, I usually prefer each person to answer to his/her own definition, without regard to what that definition is.

Most people have their own idea of what the event was that meant they lost their virginity. Whatever that event was, if I were inclined to be interested in such a thing, I'd be interested in when that was, not based on a specific criteria shared by everyone.

[dave_a]

Most people have their own idea of what the event was that meant they lost their virginity. Whatever that event was, if I were inclined to be interested in such a thing, I'd be interested in when that was, not based on a specific criteria shared by everyone.

I would think you would have to be concerned with definitions. If one person counts tongue kissing, another oral sex, another vaginal sex, another simply an orgasm by any means, another a mutual orgasm, etc. then age becomes irrelevant if these other criteria aren't agreed upon and understood.

It is quite possible for a person to be sexually active and even "slutty" far before they have "proper" intercourse for the first time.

Me, I have always viewed real sex as sex that could result in pregnancy. anything else was just foolin around.

[livius drusus]

So gay people never have sex; they just fool around?

[dave_a]

So gay people never have sex; they just fool around?

I didn't say my definition made sense, it's just how I have regarded it. :D

[livius drusus]

What about penis-vagina intercourse between people who use birth control or are sterile; is that fooling around too? You see what I'm getting at: I think you have to qualify your original statement even for it to be in line with the way you regard things, never mind how other people do.

[dave_a]

What about penis-vagina intercourse between people who use birth control or are sterile; is that fooling around too? You see what I'm getting at: I think you have to qualify your original statement even for it to be in line with the way you regard things, never mind how other people do.

You are assuming I have put way more thought into this than I have.

[livius drusus]

You are assuming I have put way more thought into this than I have.
Clearly so, but here's your chance, man. ;)

[pescifish]

I would think you would have to be concerned with definitions.
No, not if what I am interested in is that age at which the individual I am asking considers his/her virginity was lost. For me, the thing of interest would be when that 'defining moment' occurred, under his/her own criteria.

For example, if someone was sucking dicks and sticking vibrators up women at 10, but didn't consider virginity lost until a child was conceived during intercourse at the age of 25, I'd want to hear "25". Whereas another person might consider the first time at 21, when her boyfriend touched her breast and gave her a hicky while she gave him a handjob as "the moment". As Adora says, each person has a defining moment in their own mind as when they lost their virginity.

The actual activities that occurred during that 'event' is a totally separate question to me. It may or may not be of as much interest to me as the first question.

[Farren]

20, I think (my calculation could be off by a year). It was terrible. I went floppy half way through and the second time with the same girl it kept going down while I tried to put the condom on. We had those kinds of problems for a more than a year but she stuck with me and eventually we had great sex. After that it was just fine for five years but - here's the wierd part - after we broke up I had the exact same problem with my next girlfriend, then another, then another. I'm just not constructed to be a lover.

[Ex-zombie]

I was 18. It was in the back seat of a car. The cop was really quiet until he rapped on the window.

[seebs]

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

This is sort of a related question, in that it addresses the question of what one means by "sex", anyway.

Based on what people have said... I would say I started being sexually active around 16 or 17. Not sure exactly.

[Godless Dave]

I was 18 and so was she.

[godfry n. glad]

I would think you would have to be concerned with definitions.
No, not if what I am interested in is that age at which the individual I am asking considers his/her virginity was lost. For me, the thing of interest would be when that 'defining moment' occurred, under his/her own criteria.

... As Adora says, each person has a defining moment in their own mind as when they lost their virginity.



Which leads to people assuming that they are referring to the same thing, when, in fact, they are talking about something completely different. Miscommunication, in other words.

That, in my book, is not a good basis for intimate relationships.

I think it's better when everyone is on the same page.

If your "however one wishes to interpret it" approach were applied by Adora, she could just interpret her current situation to one where she has "lost her virginity" and get on with her life. Convenient. But somehow, I don't think that's going to happen, because she seems to have a specific act in mind which she considers to qualify for "loss of virginity" and it has not yet occurred with her. At least, that's how I interpret her commentary here.

godfry

(...and seebs? We're talking about "losing virginity", not "sex".)

[pescifish]

That, in my book, is not a good basis for intimate relationships.I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. My comments were relative to a hypothetical pure curiosity situation in an Internet discussion. It's likely that you and I are much closer in opinion on this sort of conversation in the context of an intimate relationship.

I apologize to Adora for the derail by sharing my own perspective on what I might find interesting about such a question. And anyone else who needs an apology. FWIW, I think it was very nice of you to ask Adora directly what she intended in her question, godfry.

[seebs]

(...and seebs? We're talking about "losing virginity", not "sex".)

Sure. But virginity as a state appears to me to have been lost long before I got around to the whole intercourse thing.

[godfry n. glad]

(...and seebs? We're talking about "losing virginity", not "sex".)

Sure. But virginity as a state appears to me to have been lost long before I got around to the whole intercourse thing.

I'm willing to listen to your rationale, but you need to present your case. For you, where does "virginity" end, and why?

It sounds as though you are equating "virginity" with "innocence"....is that correct?

godfry

[dave_a]

I think in Adora's case we are just confusing the issue. I think she wants to know when penis met vagina. No need for Clintonian definititions :P

[godfry n. glad]

I think in Adora's case we are just confusing the issue. I think she wants to know when penis met vagina. No need for Clintonian definititions :P

Actually, I think as much, too, but she hasn't been that forthcoming on the definitions.

I do think that seebs has raised an interesting question. In most instances, it is usually interpreted in the manner both you and I have stated. But... This does raise the question of why it is that oral sex and anal penetration by a penis do NOT qualify as "loss of virginity"....It begs for definition, in my mind. And, a rationale; why the differentiation of sexual acts in relation to virginity?

Perhaps the whole concept of "virginity" should be tossed as misleading, unenlightening and simply not useful?

godfry n. glad

[godfry n. glad]

Whoops... duplicate post.

godfry n. glad

[livius drusus]

Whoops... duplicate post.

godfry n. glad
I say duplicate it again in OP form. It would make an excellent discussion all its own, I think.

[dave_a]

Perhaps the whole concept of "virginity" should be tossed as misleading, unenlightening and simply not useful?

godfry n. glad

Well losing one's virginity means having sex. What is sex? To me that's pretty simple, it's penis meets vagina.

If I were gay, I would have to have a different definition.

Really penis meets butthole seems like sex too and I have no idea how to categorize that. I really can't categorize it for anyone other than myself.

So, virginity and losing is ultimately subjective because what constitutes sex is subjective. At best we could have one hetero and one homo sexual standard, but then again the gay male standard would differ (probably) from the gay female standard.

Sigh.

Why can't everyone just be heterosexual and always have sex in the missionary position? It wouldn't be much fun, but it could be standardized and quantified more easily
:D

[Goliath]

Why can't everyone just be heterosexual and always have sex in the missionary position?

That's what the idiot legislators in my former state of ND seriously wonder...sex other than the missionary position is technically illegal there.

Then again, we're also talking about a state that recently struck down the repealing of anti-cohabitation laws, and whose legislators continually wonder why all the young people are leaving.... :doh:

[JoeP]

Perhaps the whole concept of "virginity" should be tossed as misleading, unenlightening and simply not useful?

godfry n. glad
That's a great idea, but I can't imagine Adora's friends buying it. :qsigh:

Or are you just observing that tossing is an alternative to sex? :innocent: (Possible :unitedkingdom: word?)

[dave_a]

Perhaps the whole concept of "virginity" should be tossed as misleading, unenlightening and simply not useful?

godfry n. glad
That's a great idea, but I can't imagine Adora's friends buying it. :qsigh:

Or are you just observing that tossing is an alternative to sex? :innocent: (Possible :unitedkingdom: word?)

Yeah, what is this tossing? I have heard 'toss my salad baby' in a bad porn where the woman wanted her butthole licked by some wussy guy(which isn't to imply that only wussy guys eat butt, it was just the context). What exactly does that mean?

[godfry n. glad]

Perhaps the whole concept of "virginity" should be tossed as misleading, unenlightening and simply not useful?

godfry n. glad

Well losing one's virginity means having sex. What is sex? To me that's pretty simple, it's penis meets vagina.

Well, I understand, but when tongue meets vulva, or tongue meets penis, is NOT sex, when "penis meets vagina" never occurs? If that's the case, what is it?

If I were gay, I would have to have a different definition.

I would hope so, because by your definition, gay folks who never had a chance heterosexual encounter where penis met vagina would be virgins for life, despite whatever level of sexual activity they might experience.

Really penis meets butthole seems like sex too and I have no idea how to categorize that. I really can't categorize it for anyone other than myself.

So, virginity and losing is ultimately subjective because what constitutes sex is subjective. At best we could have one hetero and one homo sexual standard, but then again the gay male standard would differ (probably) from the gay female standard.

Sigh.

Why can't everyone just be heterosexual and always have sex in the missionary position? It wouldn't be much fun, but it could be standardized and quantified more easily
:D

It'd sure stifle conversations, that's for sure.

godfry

[dave_a]

Well losing one's virginity means having sex. What is sex? To me that's pretty simple, it's penis meets vagina.

Well, I understand, but when tongue meets vulva, or tongue meets penis, is NOT sex, when "penis meets vagina" never occurs? If that's the case, what is it?

Well, accordingly to my definitions which are not universal nor particularly well thought out it would be 'fooling around'. To be upfront I am looking at this from the persepctive of a parent who doesn't want to deal with pregnant kids. If my kid has oral sex with someone, this cannot result in pregnancy. If my kid puts his penis in someone's vagina it can. Sex to this proud daddy therefore is an act which could potentially result in pregnancy. Again, I don't claim my definition is universal, but it works for me.

If I were gay, I would have to have a different definition.

Why can't everyone just be heterosexual and always have sex in the missionary position? It wouldn't be much fun, but it could be standardized and quantified more easily
:D

It'd sure stifle conversations, that's for sure.

godfry

Yes, it would stiffle conversations to a point, but it would hopefully result in kids who were less concerned with penis meets vagina and instead resulted in kids who were more understanding of physical and social relationships as well as the responsibilities inherent in them. Well, OK, forcing (as if it were possible) the missionary position wouldn't result in this, but it's a good ideal (opinion) none the less.

[godfry n. glad]

Well losing one's virginity means having sex. What is sex? To me that's pretty simple, it's penis meets vagina.

Well, I understand, but when tongue meets vulva, or tongue meets penis, is NOT sex, when "penis meets vagina" never occurs? If that's the case, what is it?

Well, accordingly to my definitions which are not universal nor particularly well thought out it would be 'fooling around'. To be upfront I am looking at this from the persepctive of a parent who doesn't want to deal with pregnant kids. If my kid has oral sex with someone, this cannot result in pregnancy. If my kid puts his penis in someone's vagina it can. Sex to this proud daddy therefore is an act which could potentially result in pregnancy. Again, I don't claim my definition is universal, but it works for me.

Again, I understand. But wouldn't this categorize "penis meets vagina with protection (i.e., condom, spermicide, IUD, cervical cap, pharmaceutical birth control)" as "fooling around"? After all, the chance of pregnancy is minimalized to near zero....if not zero.

And, it's not like "fooling around" can't lead to pregnancy. If participants are not careful about where and how hands are used, particularly when tainted with precious bodily fluids that are likely to be present, pregnancy can occur.

I'm beginning to believe that the concept of "virginity" (and its loss) is nearly useless. Or so indefinable as to be useless.

godfry

[viscousmemories]

I'm beginning to believe that the concept of "virginity" (and its loss) is nearly useless. Or so indefinable as to be useless.

According to dictionary.com:

virginity = being a virgin
virgin = not having had sexual intercourse
sexual intercourse = coitus
coitus = penetration of a vagina by a penis

So there!

Of course there are also secondary definitions for all of those which obfuscate the issue quite a bit. For example, the second definition of sexual intercourse is genital contact other than coitus. :doh:

[JoeP]

Perhaps the whole concept of "virginity" should be tossed as misleading, unenlightening and simply not useful?

godfry n. glad
That's a great idea, but I can't imagine Adora's friends buying it. :qsigh:

Or are you just observing that tossing is an alternative to sex? :innocent: (Possible :unitedkingdom: word?)

Yeah, what is this tossing? I have heard 'toss my salad baby' in a bad porn where the woman wanted her butthole licked by some wussy guy(which isn't to imply that only wussy guys eat butt, it was just the context). What exactly does that mean?
I don't think that usage refers to the UK meaning, jerking off ... best put at http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tosser&r=f

[seebs]

I'm willing to listen to your rationale, but you need to present your case. For you, where does "virginity" end, and why?

Sexual experience. And... Because that's what it means.

I guess... When my girlfriend and I had been sleeping together for three years, and had gotten pretty much used to all the sexual activities we might try, it would have been stupid to call either of us a "virgin", although, technically, we hadn't had intercourse at that point.

http://www.technicalvirgin.com/

It sounds as though you are equating "virginity" with "innocence"....is that correct?

Not quite.

But... I think that the legalistic definition of sexual activity is obviously wrong.

I mean... I think most people who have an exclusive, monogamous, relationship would not accept "oh, I didn't cheat on you; it's just that I've been giving this guy blowjobs for the last year" as an explanation.

It is clear to me that, at some point, you've clearly made it over into "sexual activity with another person", and at that point, I don't think technical virginity means much.

If nothing else... Any definition under which no homosexuals can ever really "have sex" is clearly, IMHO, totally busted.

[seebs]

Oh, by the way:

The reason we have the formal definition we do, and that it really only gets applied mostly to women, is ensuring chains of heredity in patriarchal societies. All we care about is things that can get women pregnant.

Curiously, very few people have done matriarchies, despite the obvious advantage of being totally sure whether or not a given child came from the matriarch.

[dave_a]

virgin - 12c., from O.Fr. virgine, from L. virginem (nom. virgo) "maiden, unwedded girl or woman," also an adj., "fresh, unused," probably related to virga "young shoot." Also applied since M.E. to a chaste man. Virginals "small harpsichord," is from 1530, but the connection is unclear; virginity is from c.1303; Virginia (1609) was named for Elizabeth I, the Virgin Queen.


Hopefully that cleared things up If it did, someone explain it to me please. :D

[Adora]

Fine, you bunch of anal retentive semantic geeks.

I left the definition open because people seem to jduge the act more on the significance of the act to them rather than on what it is judged by others to be. Thus, I left it open to interpretations not just based around a heterosexual model.

:P

Curiously, very few people have done matriarchies, despite the obvious advantage of being totally sure whether or not a given child came from the matriarch.

You're thinking of matrilineal, not a matriachy. Jews are matrilineal, but are not matriachal.

[godfry n. glad]

Fine, you bunch of anal retentive semantic geeks.

I left the definition open because people seem to jduge the act more on the significance of the act to them rather than on what it is judged by others to be. Thus, I left it open to interpretations not just based around a heterosexual model.

:P

Curiously, very few people have done matriarchies, despite the obvious advantage of being totally sure whether or not a given child came from the matriarch.

You're thinking of matrilineal, not a matriachy. Jews are matrilineal, but are not matriachal.

Yep. She's right. That's what you're thinking all right....

She knows.

godfry

[seebs]

Fine, you bunch of anal retentive semantic geeks.

I left the definition open because people seem to jduge the act more on the significance of the act to them rather than on what it is judged by others to be. Thus, I left it open to interpretations not just based around a heterosexual model.

:P

Curiously, very few people have done matriarchies, despite the obvious advantage of being totally sure whether or not a given child came from the matriarch.

You're thinking of matrilineal, not a matriachy. Jews are matrilineal, but are not matriachal.

Hmm. I think I actually meant both. You'd think it would simplify succession debates immensely.

[godfry n. glad]

Oh, by the way:

The reason we have the formal definition we do, and that it really only gets applied mostly to women, is ensuring chains of heredity in patriarchal societies. All we care about is things that can get women pregnant.

I think what is cared about is who might be the father of any child....and who, other than the mother, is responsible for the raising of that child to adulthood.

And, yes, matrilineal inheritance would cure that, particularly if combined with significant control of property as leverage.

It's my understanding that patrilineal inheritance is a motivater to keep the involvement of the male parent in child-rearing. If matrilineal inheritance replaces it, males can give up their concern about who they impregnate and copulate without concern, as the women will be stuck with raising the children....hey, how does she know it's my kid?

I'd be interested to see what gender would be selling their bodies in the seedy parts of town under such circumstances.

godfry

[Adora]

Hmm. I think I actually meant both. You'd think it would simplify succession debates immensely.

Again, Jewish example: The religion is matrilineal but the females don't inherit. It's simply a guarantee of knowing whether the child is of some sort of "Jewish" bloodline. *shrugs* One doesn't necessarily guarantee the other.

I'd be interested to see what gender would be selling their bodies in the seedy parts of town under such circumstances.

Depends on which part of town you go to.

[godfry n. glad]

Hmm. I think I actually meant both. You'd think it would simplify succession debates immensely.

Again, Jewish example: The religion is matrilineal but the females don't inherit. It's simply a guarantee of knowing whether the child is of some sort of "Jewish" bloodline. *shrugs* One doesn't necessarily guarantee the other.

For the determination of who is assuredly Jewish, having a Jewish mother is incontroverible evidence of such. But you are right, that is all it determines. Traditional Judaism is very patriarchal in terms of control of assets and power in the society.

That tradition is merely an acknowledgment that one cannot depend upon fatherhood to determine someone's tribal standing, because fatherhood could not be accurately and unquestionably determined. Motherhood is quite the opposite.

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

I'd be interested to see what gender would be selling their bodies in the seedy parts of town under such circumstances.

Depends on which part of town you go to.



Yeah, I suppose you're right.

'Course, we're way off topic, too. :wink:

godfry

[Philosophy]

Never.

[Dragar]

Well, since Philosophy bumped this thread (hey!), I may as well answer.

And my answer is 'never' too. Heck, I've never even kissed with tongues, and I'm 20!

Considering I'm a physics obsessed introvert who spends most days sat at his computer, this answer may or may not have comforted you. ;)

[Blue]

17.......

[Philosophy]

17.......

The nastiness of losing something such as that will never cease to irritate Raskolnikov and makes he wonder whether the "extraordinary man" has the right to lose his virginity at all. There is no such thing as an "extraordinatory woman", according to Raskolnikov.

Perhaps everything else about which Raskolnikov says is wrong for this wondering of his I take it seriously. Now Raskolnikov may ask instead of the Dostoevskian who is writing this post: "What is so great about losing something like that of someone himself?".

Ok, just some silly Dostoevskian philosophy from nowhere and perhaps quoted from the Great Book of Nonsense... :doh:

[Adora]

Who the fuck is Raskolnikov?

(And seriously, this thread is totally redundant now, but still... who the fuck is he and why the fuck should we care if he doesn't think there's an "extraodinary woman" in the first place to loose his virginity to?

Edit: Or is he sly?)

[MooseIBe]

Interesting thread - I just read it through for the first time. For the record, I was 18 and he was 24. Further for the record I tend to consider virginity to be lost when heterosexual penis in vagina takes place. Even futher for the record, when I was 18 I assumed that everyone had done it except me (well and a few of my also geeky friends) and I found out as an adult that that simply was not true.

[Philosophy]

Who the fuck is Raskolnikov?

(And seriously, this thread is totally redundant now, but still... who the fuck is he and why the fuck should we care if he doesn't think there's an "extraodinary woman" in the first place to loose his virginity to?

Edit: Or is he sly?)

Raskolnikov, a student, from St.Petersburg. Proponent of Hegelian and Nietzschean "extraordinary man" theories. Expert of criminology. Murderer himself.

[Adora]

And we should care about his opinions ...why?

[Philosophy]

And we should care about his opinions ...why?

Because he is the "extraordinary man". Recall that Hitler and Napoleon believed in the Hegelian and Nietzschean theories of "extraordinary man". People cared his opinions.

Just nevermind.

[Blue]

17.......

The nastiness of losing something such as that will never cease to irritate Raskolnikov and makes he wonder whether the "extraordinary man" has the right to lose his virginity at all. There is no such thing as an "extraordinatory woman", according to Raskolnikov.

Perhaps everything else about which Raskolnikov says is wrong for this wondering of his I take it seriously. Now Raskolnikov may ask instead of the Dostoevskian who is writing this post: "What is so great about losing something like that of someone himself?".

Ok, just some silly Dostoevskian philosophy from nowhere and perhaps quoted from the Great Book of Nonsense... :doh:

*rolls eyes* Keep reading this 'Great Book of Nonsense'. I see it's doing you wonders.

[Philosophy]

17.......

The nastiness of losing something such as that will never cease to irritate Raskolnikov and makes he wonder whether the "extraordinary man" has the right to lose his virginity at all. There is no such thing as an "extraordinatory woman", according to Raskolnikov.

Perhaps everything else about which Raskolnikov says is wrong for this wondering of his I take it seriously. Now Raskolnikov may ask instead of the Dostoevskian who is writing this post: "What is so great about losing something like that of someone himself?".

Ok, just some silly Dostoevskian philosophy from nowhere and perhaps quoted from the Great Book of Nonsense... :doh:

*rolls eyes* Keep reading this 'Great Book of Nonsense'. I see it's doing you wonders.


Hmm...are you a girl? :doh:

[Veritas]

And we should care about his opinions ...why?

We shouldn't. He's a fictional character. I care more about the opinions of Scarlett O'Hara and James Bond. :D

[Philosophy]

And we should care about his opinions ...why?

We shouldn't. He's a fictional character. I care more about the opinions of Scarlett O'Hara and James Bond. :D

Or Harry Potter. :P

[Wizard]

Still haven't lost it and I'm a male at 17.

[Adora]

Because he is the "extraordinary man".
No, he's just a psycho who thinks he is extraordinary.

Recall that Hitler and Napoleon believed in the Hegelian and Nietzschean theories of "extraordinary man".
And they were fellow psychos who both got their arses royally kicked by Russia. What's your point? We should all care about the opinions of psychos, just cos?

[Johnny Pneumatic]

If I knew what you looked like, Adora, I could give advice on maybe why you haven't been laid. Not that I've been yet, but I know what I find hot and am a straight male. So I should be able to figure out why other straight males haven't asked to do the horizontal mambo with you yet.

[Adora]

Oi, Skep, your thread-reading skillz never cease to astound me...

And seriously, this thread is totally redundant now
Niiiice.

Also, who said anything about straight males? Damn heterosexists...

[erimir]

On topic... I lost it at age 16. Under unusual circumstances ;)

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Oi, Skep, your thread-reading skillz never cease to astound me...

And seriously, this thread is totally redundant now
Niiiice.

Also, who said anything about straight males? Damn heterosexists...

Without a context as to what this quote is referring to, which you don't give even in the original post, I didn't know what you were talking about.

Congratulations. :yup:

Well, gay men probably wouldn't have sex with you because women don't turn them on. Bi men are a possibility however. Damn strawmen... honestly, if you think all straight men are sexist you'd be very wrong.

[livius drusus]

Um... SkepJ, women do have sex with other women, you know. Men of any sexuality are not the sole options here.

[erimir]

Well, gay men probably wouldn't have sex with you because women don't turn them on.I'd consider it ;)

I need a picture, and if possible, a picture of another male who'll be joining us which will seriously increase the likelihood of me wanting to do it :p

[Dingfod]

On topic... I lost it at age 16. Under unusual circumstances ;)I'll bet that's an interesting tail tale.

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Um... SkepJ, women do have sex with other women, you know. Men of any sexuality are not the sole options here.

What, do you think I'm stupid or something? I've posted about how I like lesbian love, so am fully aware, and happy, it happens. From how she worded her posts in this thread I took it she meant getting down with a guy, not with women, which I've known she's done for months. If I was incorrect in taking it this way, then sorry, I was wrong.

[erimir]

I'll bet that's an interesting tail tale.

It was with another guy, on the floor, at a party, while many of the other party guests were sleeping on the couches and floor around us... Yeah.

It still holds the record for being the strangest place I ever got down, even if I include masturbation and oral sex. Except for maybe when I masturbated on the school bus in like 6th grade.

[Adora]

Well, gay men probably wouldn't have sex with you because women don't turn them on. Bi men are a possibility however. Damn strawmen... honestly, if you think all straight men are sexist you'd be very wrong.
What, do you think I'm stupid or something?
Do I have to answer this? Do I? In all the posts I've made here I've either been gender neutral in terms of virginity or made it obvious I'm bisexual. So yes, you are very very stupid.

[erimir]

Don't be mean. He can't help that he is socially impaired. I would say he was humorously impaired too, but that sounds like his impairment is funny, not that he has no (apparent) sense of humor.

[Veritas]

If I knew what you looked like, Adora, I could give advice on maybe why you haven't been laid. Not that I've been yet, but I know what I find hot and am a straight male. So I should be able to figure out why other straight males haven't asked to do the horizontal mambo with you yet.

Ha ha, so speaks the love doctor. :bow:

I would also like to add to the 'not all women go for the pork-sword' line of conversation - sometimes, just sometimes, men do offer and...get this...we say no!

:eek: Yeah, it's shocking isn't it? :giggle:

[viscousmemories]

That's not what I heard. :pimp:

[Trojan]

I'll bet that's an interesting tail tale.

It was with another guy, on the floor, at a party, while many of the other party guests were sleeping on the couches and floor around us... Yeah.

It still holds the record for being the strangest place I ever got down, even if I include masturbation and oral sex. Except for maybe when I masturbated on the school bus in like 6th grade.
:fantasy: I know some people that would really enjoy reading this! Especially after that photo! :lookporn:

[Johnny Pneumatic]

If I knew what you looked like, Adora, I could give advice on maybe why you haven't been laid. Not that I've been yet, but I know what I find hot and am a straight male. So I should be able to figure out why other straight males haven't asked to do the horizontal mambo with you yet.

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Ha ha, so speaks the love doctor. :bow:


One would think that a "freethinker" wouldn't make strawman attacks. I didn't say anything other than what is true; I know what I find sexy. I don't claim to have the same tastes as all straight males, there's some porn for straight men that I find repulsive, and the catwomen I like don't appeal to some men. But I know what many straight men find attractive, from experience.
Oh, well.*sigh* It seems I can't have a conversation with anybody here without people making cheap jabs at me. Perhaps I'll limit my time here to next to nil, because I can live without being mocked in seriousness, shocking, I know.

[Wizard]

To be honest I really don't like many girls at all. I probably only "like" less than 1 percent of all the girls there are. I'm sexually attracted to a lot of them but I just dont "like" many girls, I'm not into them that way, just as a sex object so I guess im a little sexist.