Do you have a problem with porn?

[justaman]

This is to avoid a derail in the politics thread.

I think porn is rad. Its detractors say it 'objectifies people', perhaps forgetting that men necessarily objectify women whenever we rub one out, which is - generally - quite often for most men. Porn is simply an open admission that we do it, as far as I'm concerned.

But let's hear other perspectives. :popcorn:

[natasha]

This is to avoid a derail in the politics thread.

I think porn is rad. Its detractors say it 'objectifies people', perhaps forgetting that men necessarily objectify women whenever we rub one out, which is - generally - quite often for most men. Porn is simply an open admission that we do it, as far as I'm concerned.

But let's hear other perspectives. :popcorn:

Well, since you and I both started this I guess I should respond.

A lot of porn is disgusting. A lot isn't. Wow, now that I've so brilliantly put forth my ideas we can continue!

What makes it disgusting? I dunno, to each their own I guess. My big problem in the "disgusting" area is the violence towards women -- where it isn't mutual. (in other words, not talking about S&M or B&D where both parites are into it.) And kids of course, should go without saying.

Other than that, even though it may not be my taste (no pun intended) it's none of my business. And some of it I like.

Well, more later. . .

[Crumb]

You got natasha all hot and bothered, justaman. :1thumbup:

[koan]

I have a problem with porn. Low budget crap. I went on a search for a truly good quality production in porn a couple of years ago. I just couldn't stand watching rash covered, poorly lit home video quality trash. Not that I HAD to watch it at all, but I wanted to know if good porn existed. I found one. It had great lighting, incredible sets, flawless makeup and vignettes of actual themes. I'm not here to promote porn so no titles are to be offered.

In the pursuit of my quest I decided that porn seems to be a good thing. Everyone has fantasies. Not all fantasies are meant to be acted on. Watching porn can allow people to indulge in fantasy without getting hurt by it. Then they generally get bored with it and move on to another. On the downside: Porn often portrays acts in a way that makes men/women think they are not painful. Some of these things are. A lot of the women are doped up or so "used" you could park a car in them. If ER staff could talk!

I suggest to anyone who likes porn...read up on any "strange" acts before trying them at home. Unless you like getting bitch slapped.

[natasha]

[COLOR=Indigo]I have a problem with porn. Low budget crap.

A lot of it's like that, and maybe it's a guy thing. They just don't care! More women are producing porn these days so it's not as raunchy. Most guys probably could give a damn about lousy lighting, bad 1970s annoying sex-spy music, even worse acting, etc. Who can get turned on by any of that? Well, I guess for most of the men in here, don't answer that, I'm sure you'll answer "I can!" For me though, yeech. It's all so seamy sleezy. Sex is a good thing -- why cheese it up with dirty curtains pulled shut in the daytime in dusty rooms with cheap furniture?

[Sweetie]

I think porn is rad. Its detractors say it 'objectifies people', perhaps forgetting that men necessarily objectify women whenever we rub one out, which is - generally - quite often for most men.

What does that mean exactly?

Men necessarily objectify women whenever they jerk off or just get off or what?

How do you prove that one? Please, do tell, we're all ears and orifaces.

[Adora]

I don't have a problem with porn as a general definition. I have a problem with real violence, and sexual exploitation and abuse. If a piece of pornography depicts this real sexual violence and abuse towards real people, I have a problem with it. But porn, in general, I have no problem with.

And if porn objectifies men/women, then all media does. Personally, I take issue with this whole idea of "objectification". There is real objectification of people in real society - child slavery, using daughters in economic transaction, etc. These people are totally and completely reduced to non-human objects in these transactions, and have no say or power. Depictions of human beings doing human things with full consent is not objectification.

[John Carter]

[COLOR=Indigo]I have a problem with porn. Low budget crap.

A lot of it's like that, and maybe it's a guy thing. They just don't care! More women are producing porn these days so it's not as raunchy. Most guys probably could give a damn about lousy lighting, bad 1970s annoying sex-spy music, even worse acting, etc. Who can get turned on by any of that? Well, I guess for most of the men in here, don't answer that, I'm sure you'll answer "I can!" For me though, yeech. It's all so seamy sleezy. Sex is a good thing -- why cheese it up with dirty curtains pulled shut in the daytime in dusty rooms with cheap furniture?


I'm a guy, and all the crap you mention is annoying. When you find something that has decent production values, the majority of the time the women still seem to be just going through the motions. That's not much of a turn on for me; there has to be some passion there, and that's much more rare.

What's even worse is when the actress has implants that are way out of proportion to the rest of her body that look like a couple of balloons have been attached to her chest, and she's covered with multiple large garish tattoos and body piercings.

[justaman]

[COLOR=Indigo]I have a problem with porn. Low budget crap.

A lot of it's like that, and maybe it's a guy thing. They just don't care! More women are producing porn these days so it's not as raunchy. Most guys probably could give a damn about lousy lighting, bad 1970s annoying sex-spy music, even worse acting, etc. Who can get turned on by any of that? Well, I guess for most of the men in here, don't answer that, I'm sure you'll answer "I can!" For me though, yeech. It's all so seamy sleezy. Sex is a good thing -- why cheese it up with dirty curtains pulled shut in the daytime in dusty rooms with cheap furniture?
I think it may have something to do with the fact that porn film makers - predominantly - aren't the brightest sparks the film industry has to offer. So they wind up going for "ok - I need my girls to look like porn stars" as opposed to "ok - I need my girls to look enticing to men"

If they actually asked this question, you'd see a lot less acrylic fingernails and stilletos and more girl-next-doorsy types.

I'd be an awesome porn director, just quietly.

[justaman]

What does that mean exactly?

Men necessarily objectify women whenever they jerk off or just get off or what?
That's pretty much it. Women become conceptual objects of desire in such instances. Pornography doesn't encourage or create objectification, it panders to a pre-existing demand.

How do you prove that one? Please, do tell, we're all ears and orifaces.
I've never whacked off over a girl's intelligence. But that's just me.

[koan]

I know a writer who prefers dealing with the porn industry. When they option a script (yes some of them have one) they actually make the fucking film (pun intended). Getting a movie "gig" as a member of production is never a sure thing. Even when your contract is signed. Porn films are. I'm suprised more technicians haven't transfered.

I've never worked on a porn though I had a meeting with producers over what would be involved in doing a penile prosthetic that would actually be used. I refused to do it. Not because of morals but because, although I knew of safe adhesives, I could not think of an adhesive remover that I could consciously choose to apply to that part of the anatomy. I was disappointed to find out that even porn isn't real (all the time)

[Sweetie]

I've never whacked off over a girl's intelligence. But that's just me.

Right, that's part of the problem. Do you even realize that the girls you whack off too possibly have like, intelligence or is that a bit too threatening?

Like emotions and like, feelings, scary. You maybe would have to like deal with like, reality. Like parents and like, they're getting paid, aren't whores just like treated so well. Like, it's all just so great man.

Maybe I do support porn, some men are best left to it. :yup:

[Adora]

I'm a guy, and all the crap you mention is annoying. When you find something that has decent production values, the majority of the time the women still seem to be just going through the motions. That's not much of a turn on for me; there has to be some passion there, and that's much more rare.
What's even worse is when the actress has implants that are way out of proportion to the rest of her body that look like a couple of balloons have been attached to her chest, and she's covered with multiple large garish tattoos and body piercings.
Yeah, what he said. These are some of the aesthetic things that really turn me off regular straight-guy-pr0n. If it's not the bored expression on the actress's face, it's her scary boobs, really bad blonde-dye-job and terrifying fingernails (seriously, what's with the porn-star claws they all seem to have?). But I'm not against it. It's just I prefer my fantasies in a different flavour (preferably one with 0 boobs and more slutty guys fucking each other and enjoying it:D).

[justaman]

Right, that's part of the problem. Do you even realize that the girls you whack off too possibly have like, intelligence or is that a bit too threatening?
What do you masturbate to? Robert Frost poetry?

:wink:

[Sweetie]

Yeah, what he said. These are some of the aesthetic things that really turn me off regular straight-guy-pr0n. If it's not the bored expression on the actress's face, it's her scary boobs, really bad blonde-dye-job and terrifying fingernails (seriously, what's with the porn-star claws they all seem to have?).

Ditto.

I must be against it primarily on Christian principles, though it's really hard to convey to people that personally I'm rather Liberal except for just plain ol' disgusting or damaging behavior, but my conservatism must overide that.

And I do think it's detrimental to women. Why? I could use some men as examples. The fact that they have to be so perfect alot of the times, the fact that men take those expectations into the real world.

I could probably come up with a few others.

[ApostateAbe]

Porn for women is on the rise. But I have a problem with an industry that preys on poor young men and takes pictures of them stripping and holding their wang so lonely women can jerk off. It objectifies men. I can't stand to see men being treated as sex objects. Men are more than that.

Haha, just kidding. I can't seriously understand why anyone would give a hoot.

[Sweetie]

What do you masturbate to? Robert Frost poetry?

:wink:

The idea of a young man jacking off alone to porn. :rolleyes:

You do realize that many women find that a big turn off? Not all certainly though so don't worry.

[justaman]

The idea of a young man jacking off alone to porn. :rolleyes:

You do realize that many women find that a big turn off? Not all certainly though so don't worry.
You're missing the point. If you masturbate, what do you think about?

I'm willing to be a million bucks it's something physical about a man (or perhaps a woman depending on the mood you're in). Something that is tantamount to objectification.

This thing you hate so much is more or less what the sex drive specifically is based upon. Without it, we'd be deficient a libido.

[Ari]

...and she's covered with multiple large... ...tattoos and body piercings
Sounds good to me. :)


possibly have like, intelligence or is that a bit too threatening?
Actually, the fact that Paris Hilton acts-like/is a moron makes her even less atractive than she already is.

Pretty much ditto what others have said.

[Ari]

On a side note, if you think someone is sexy because of their intelligence, or accent or pretty much any other quality, aren't you objectifying them?

[Sweetie]

You're missing the point. If you masturbate, what do you think about?

I'm willing to be a million bucks it's something physical about a man (or perhaps a woman depending on the mood you're in). Something that is tantamount to objectification.

This thing you hate so much is more or less what the sex drive specifically is based upon. Without it, we'd be deficient a libido.

The problem I have is with what is in the mind and what you create and act upon in reality.

For instance, you may think about "using" women, but actually going out and paying them, real human beings to do this or that for you and then really, just walking away, there's a difference, no?

A difference between a would be thief and a thief? One actually harms no one, right? The other harms someone, right?

[Sweetie]

On a side note, if you think someone is sexy because of their intelligence, or accent or pretty much any other quality, aren't you objectifying them?

What?

People are people, they are not sex objects. They think and act and speak. They cry, they get pregnant. If that's all you want them for is their intelligence and then you could kick 'em on the way out, then yes, you are using them.

[Sweetie]

Or better, a difference between a pedophile or a pedophile with materials?

[koan]

Intelligence in the bedroom can be a very satisfying thing. If you'd experienced it you would appreciate it and probably whack off to it.

[viscousmemories]

Actually, the fact that Paris Hilton acts-like/is a moron makes her even less atractive than she already is.
Man, not to me. I find the fact that she's borderline illiterate exciting. I've always had a soft spot (au contraire) for rich, beautiful, lazy, ignorant, disaffected women. Where I come from we called them "Sorority Girls". :lecher:

[viscousmemories]

I don't have a problem with porn as a general definition. I have a problem with real violence, and sexual exploitation and abuse. If a piece of pornography depicts this real sexual violence and abuse towards real people, I have a problem with it. But porn, in general, I have no problem with.

And if porn objectifies men/women, then all media does. Personally, I take issue with this whole idea of "objectification". There is real objectification of people in real society - child slavery, using daughters in economic transaction, etc. These people are totally and completely reduced to non-human objects in these transactions, and have no say or power. Depictions of human beings doing human things with full consent is not objectification.

I can't find a word in there I disagree with.

[koan]

Also, IMO, men would treat women less like objects if so many of them stopped acting like objects.

[Sweetie]

Also, IMO, men would treat women less like objects if so many of them stopped acting like objects.

Agreed, though that requires more intelligence on the female part IMHO.

Men do tend to enjoy less intelligent women, I wonder if there's a connection?

[Sweetie]

Hmmm, and alot of women prefer more intelligent men.

You have to be somewhat stupid to allow yourself to be used however, you really want an intelligent man who doesn't want a stupid thing in his bed and who knows what to do with a smart one. There's a whole line of thought in there of course.

[RevDahlia]

Actually, the fact that Paris Hilton acts-like/is a moron makes her even less atractive than she already is.
Man, not to me. I find the fact that she's borderline illiterate exciting. I've always had a soft spot (au contraire) for rich, beautiful, lazy, ignorant, disaffected women. Where I come from we called them "Sorority Girls". :lecher:
Paris Hilton looks like an Afghan hound with a weave. Also, did you see The Tape? Bitch was checking out the camera angle while she and what's-his-name were doing the do. Sexy! (I'm sorry, I just really hate Paris Hilton.)

Topic? I don't object to porn on general principle. I watch porn -- usually gay porn -- on occasion. I am a titch worried about the effect it has on heavy consumers, particularly people who haven't even had sex before. They're so used to all those plastic bodies and contortionist positions, and then when they have sex with an actual woman, who has pubic hair and everything and may not especially enjoy having semen blasted in her eyes, they're disappointed. My generation was the first that had really unfettered access to all the porn we could watch, and I've found that guys my age have epic porn-informed sexual hangups. That's sad.

Some porn, especially the gonzo, Max Hardcore-style stuff, gives me the creeping horrors. Not to say that it shouldn't exist, I just wonder about what kind of person would seek out that sort of thing.

[viscousmemories]

Paris Hilton looks like an Afghan hound with a weave.
Oh yeah she's ugly, don't get me wrong. But she's still hot.

Also, did you see The Tape? Bitch was checking out the camera angle while she and what's-his-name were doing the do. Sexy! (I'm sorry, I just really hate Paris Hilton.)
I don't know if I've seen the whole thing. I have a 5 minute long movie file on my computer where she's all green with red eyes and the camera angle is bad - and yeah, she's definitely got her eye on the lens. Is that the whole thing?

Topic? I don't object to porn on general principle. I watch porn -- usually gay porn -- on occasion. I am a titch worried about the effect it has on heavy consumers, particularly people who haven't even had sex before. They're so used to all those plastic bodies and contortionist positions, and then when they have sex with an actual woman, who has pubic hair and everything and may not especially enjoy having semen blasted in her eyes, they're disappointed.
That's a really good point. I definitely think my preoccupation with porn as a ute adversely impacted my relationships with real women later in life.

Some porn, especially the gonzo, Max Hardcore-style stuff, gives me the creeping horrors. Not to say that it shouldn't exist, I just wonder about what kind of person would seek out that sort of thing.
Worse, I have it on good authority that old Max actually prefers to get young first timers fresh off the street because they're that much more fun to completely humiliate and degrade. I've seen quite a few of those videos myself (hey, it's not like the filenames are descriptive!) and it really does detract from the sexiness (where applicable) knowing what an evil prick that guy really is.

[Adora]

Ditto.
Ohhh no. Don't even think we're on the same level, darling. I'm not against porn, I just find the common aesthetics of a lot of mainstream stuff are not appealing to me. Big difference. I don't find the aesthetics of a lot of surreal art appealing, but I'm not against it.

And I do think it's detrimental to women. Why? I could use some men as examples. The fact that they have to be so perfect alot of the times, the fact that men take those expectations into the real world.
Obviously it's not the majority of times though, if human beings are still being heterosexual and pupping out babies and getting married, even with a "Third time's a charm" philosophy.

Try and come up with a few others which aren't extreme examples.

I can't find a word in there I disagree with.
First sign of the apocalypse, that is.

Edit:

Men do tend to enjoy less intelligent women, I wonder if there's a connection?
HAHA You're such a wannabe Dworkin-feminist it's not funny.

[justaman]

The problem I have is with what is in the mind and what you create and act upon in reality.
I will assume you have conceded my point about masturbation necessarily requiring objectification.

The point being that pornography does not encourage objectification. Objectification already exists, as you have - it would appear to me - admitted.

For instance, you may think about "using" women, but actually going out and paying them, real human beings to do this or that for you and then really, just walking away, there's a difference, no?
No. I do not need to consider the person behind the character in pornography any more than I need to consider the person behind the character in a given movie.

[Ari]

Hmm, maybe we need a "bash paris hilton" thread split ;)

I think more people are into BDSM then they realize, because it's stylized as normal settings and not the gothic BDSM style. Because of that they learn to associate it as an everyday thing.

[Sweetie]

Ohhh no. Don't even think we're on the same level, darling.

Oh, don't worry, I actually have sex and know what I'm talking about.

I'm not against porn, I just find the common aesthetics of a lot of mainstream stuff are not appealing to me.

Right, oddly enough, I was agreeing that aesthetics are generally rather ugly.

I don't find the aesthetics of a lot of surreal art appealing, but I'm not against it.

Sorry, but my agreement with one thought is not attached to mean that I agree with all your thoughts.

A
Obviously it's not the majority of times though, if human beings are still being heterosexual and pupping out babies and getting married, even with a "Third time's a charm" philosophy.

Try and come up with a few others which aren't extreme examples.

Oh, well, welcome to justaman world.

He would be this girls' knight in shining armour:

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1349

C'mon Adora, you know you want him. Seriously, I tried to convince him that you and I were friends and that you were just so smitten.


Men do tend to enjoy less intelligent women, I wonder if there's a connection?
HAHA You're such a wannabe Dworkin-feminist it's not funny.[/QUOTE]

You're such a freak it's so not funny. Really. You should get that checked out.

[Sweetie]

I will assume you have conceded my point about masturbation necessarily requiring objectification.

The point being that pornography does not encourage objectification. Objectification already exists, as you have - it would appear to me - admitted.

:indifferent:

Really. It would be as right in your face to want only perfect women with perfect porn tits and perfect blond hair if that wasn't staring at you from your tv screen probably every night? If women didn't strive to be that so that you could see it and pay for it, etc., etc.


No. I do not need to consider the person behind the character in pornography any more than I need to consider the person behind the character in a given movie.

Right, they're just there for you buck and your pleasure. An actor sells himself just as much as a woman face down in a porn flick risking oftentimes, STD's and pregnancy, possibly abused in the past, possibly exploited, etc., etc. Same diff, gotcha. :wink:

[justaman]

:indifferent:

Really. It would be as right in your face to want only perfect women with perfect porn tits and perfect blond hair if that wasn't staring at you from your tv screen probably every night? If women didn't strive to be that so that you could see it and pay for it, etc., etc.
Is that what you think I desire in a woman? Do you think porn impacts upon who I desire, do you?

Right, they're just there for you buck and your pleasure. An actor sells himself just as much as a woman face down in a porn flick risking oftentimes, STD's and pregnancy, possibly abused in the past, possibly exploited, etc., etc. Same diff, gotcha. :wink:
I take it - because of your concern for the dangers porn stars face - that you also boycott action films, given the dangers the stuntmen face?

[Sweetie]

Is that what you think I desire in a woman? Do you think porn impacts upon who I desire, do you?

I don't know, you have claimed that you desire blondes specifically with big breasts and only thin women. You're maybe just rather plain and common then?


I take it - because of your concern for the dangers porn stars face - that you also boycott action films, given the dangers the stuntmen face?

That's really perfect that you compare porn stars to stunt men. I guess I think that sex, even if it's for sale, is really personal and that it effects the psyche really intensely. You may disagree, however, we do disagree on just about everything so it's no suprise.

[justaman]

I don't know, you have claimed that you desire blondes specifically with big breasts and only thin women. You're maybe just rather plain and common then?
Maybe I am. All I know is porn hasn't had the slightest impact upon who I find attractive, which makes your primary complaint more or less bunk.

That's really perfect that you compare porn stars to stunt men. I guess I think that sex, even if it's for sale, is really personal and that it effects the psyche really intensely. You may disagree, however, we do disagree on just about everything so it's no suprise.
You don't think diving from a helicopter and landing on an air-mattress that's on top of a building doesn't affect your psyche? How is telling someone "Yep, I'll jump off this building" not selling yourself, and placing yourself at risk for the entertainment of others?

Your underlying complaint is really that publicising sex in any manner is wrong. I have my suspicions about why this is something you advocate, but it's quite simple to demonstrate that what you are specifically telling me is your argument just isn't rational. Stuntpeople get hurt and even killed. Why are you not concerned about action movies?

[Sweetie]

Maybe I am. All I know is porn hasn't had the slightest impact upon who I find attractive, which makes your primary complaint more or less bunk.

Ah well, I'm all just a bunch of bunk anyways.


You don't think diving from a helicopter and landing on an air-mattress that's on top of a building doesn't affect your psyche? How is telling someone "Yep, I'll jump off this building" not selling yourself, and placing yourself at risk for the entertainment of others?

Your underlying complaint is really that publicising sex in any manner is wrong.

No, actually my primary complaint stems from men like you but I don't want to elaborate.

I have my suspicions about why this is something you advocate, but it's quite simple to demonstrate that what you are specifically telling me is your argument just isn't rational. Stuntpeople get hurt and even killed. Why are you not concerned about action movies?

You may be right that they are both traumatic. I don't wish you to jump out of helicopters if it's harmful to you though you may have to. I don't wish any woman to simply be your bitch and whore and I think making porn flicks would be a great profession for you. :yup: I bet you're just the King.

[justaman]

You may be right that they are both traumatic. I don't wish you to jump out of helicopters if it's harmful to you though you may have to. I don't wish any woman to simply be your bitch and whore and I think making porn flicks would be a great profession for you. :yup: I bet you're just the King.
I would be.

Here's a quick link. 40 deaths from 1980-1989.
http://hd24.com/usa_union_heli_safety.htm

Recently there have been deaths on the sets of Troy and Spiderman II.

If it is concern for the individuals which motivates you, why do you not advocate a boycott of action films? Why care more about perceived - and debatable - effects of the 'psyche' of porn stars rather than factual evidence of death on film sets?

Ans = you're personally threatened by pornography, which is why you don't like it. :cool:

[Adora]

Oh, don't worry, I actually have sex and know what I'm talking about.
Awh, you're so cute when you're such a fucking arse Sweetie. Maybe your lack of reading abilities are rearing their head again, but we're talking about looking at porn, which, I would hazard a guess, I do far more than you do, considering your anti-porn stance. Do try to stay on topic, for once. It at least makes you look like less of a fucktard than you are.

You're such a freak it's so not funny. Really. You should get that checked out.
Only if you admit you're a feminist.

[John Carter]

Also, IMO, men would treat women less like objects if so many of them stopped acting like objects.

Agreed, though that requires more intelligence on the female part IMHO.

Men do tend to enjoy less intelligent women, I wonder if there's a connection?

We do? That's news to me! Boys who have not yet matured into men may feel this way, I can't say for sure. I don't think I've ever met a man who had much in the of intelligence who preferred the company of stupid women.

[Farren]

Well I'm a bit ambivalent, because I whack off to porn regularly, but not frequently, if you get my meaning - but I must concede I do think media plays a role in our perception of both men and women. So I think there's a case to be made for porn being unhealthy. I don't, however, think there's a case to be made for porn being illegal.

What's made me give it a fair amount of thought is that I've always had a problem with keeping it up, which has had a negative effect on 5 relationships before I gave up dating entirely 5 years ago. Several of my woman friends have suggested in recent years that use of porn is to blame. Their suggestion is that the real life women I've dated rarely live up to the expectations created by porn movies.

The counter to this is that I first had sex when you just couldn't get porn in this country and I had a problem even then. The root cause is all sorts of Catholic upbringing issues. I know its mental because I finally managed to enjoy good sex with a very good woman after she stuck with me for two years and got me to a point of being completely unselfconscious about sex. We unfortunately parted ways 3 years after that and the problem came right back.

But I do feel that porn exacerbates the problem, like a bullemic person who chain smokes having difficulty putting on weight even when they conquer their eating issues. That said, several of my friends report that porn stimulates and enhances their sex life, so I don't think that effect is universal.

I am certain, however, that my taste has been influenced, to the extent where a much narrower range of real life women elicit a sexual response from me. Women don't have to have perfect bodies or picture-perfect faces to arouse me, but the parameters have certainly narrowed.

On the other hand, it seems as if older men have always desired younger women throughout history, while younger men are less discriminating. I think this is because men naturally get more selective as they get older. Massive exposure to porn and even non-porn related media featuring women generally probably speeds up the process a lot though.

In some parts of West Africa, rural families send their daughters to fattening schools, where they are actually encouraged to become obese. The fat alone isn't the single criteria for attractiveness. A specific shape is sought and techniques used to try to massage the fat into the right places. Urbanized men from exactly the same ethnic groups who are exposed to a lot of global media often have exactly the opposite taste. In South Africa that's very much the case for Zulus, with the result that women have generally been selected out for rump size. As a result, many urban Zulu women are saddled with gigantic derrieres and saddlebags, even where the rest of there bodies are skinny thanks to careful eating.

So its almost being dispute that what we see frequently shapes our idea of beauty. In this light its obvious that porn affects mens attitudes to women. It should be mentioned, though, that women's and (non-porn) men's magazines play an equally large role. Many young men entering puberty have only mom's mags and the TV as their primary source of female images.

What isn't as obvious is that porn shapes our expectation of women's behaviour. I can say with complete confidence that I don't find submissive, pandering and stupid women any more sexy than assertive and intelligent women in real life. In fact the latter are far sexier. The men I've met that do admire the qualities portrayed by many porn actresses - which, obviously, aren't necessarily their offstage personalities - are men who would think like that regardless of whether porn existed or not. Crude, literal-minded men who prefer action movies, violent sports, copious amounts of alcohol, minimal introspection and an aggressive and confrontational approach to life in general.

I've had three women friends in the sex industry, if stripping, phone sex lines and prostitution are lumped together, and never had a problem with reflexively imagining them "on the job" when I interact with them. I didn't know any of them in the biblical sense, but even if I were to sleep with one of them, or jerk off to nude pictures of them, they would remain far more than just a sex object. The objectification, if any, would be for the duration of the sexual act.

In fact I did fantasize a lot about one of them, a very close friend, for some time, but when we were doing supper, out partying or even sharing a hotel bed in a foreign country, she was simply my friend and confidante. The "objectification" lasted for the duration of a good wank, and not beyond.

So drawing from my own experience I'd say that the impact of porn on men's respect for women and ability to deal with them as intelligent, multidimensional beings is hardly affected at all by porn. The primitive parts of our brain are a beast we feed from time to time, but the beast is not the whole of us or our sole informant for dealing with the world. Those men who are beastly through and through by nature are beastly with or without porn, I think.

[Endora]

I dont mind porn movies. Ive watched some during sex. Doesnt bother me. Although i stay with the same actress in different movies Jenna Jameson. Ive seen her interviewed and shes made a profitable business of it with her husband..books ...videos...you go girl :P

What i dont like are the porn/sex sites with all the people who you know are in a 3rd world country either drugged out of their mind or forced to perform for the camera for a loaf of bread or to live. Human trafficing is happening all around us and is very profitable....

[Endora]

Well I'm a bit ambivalent, because I whack off to porn regularly, but not frequently, if you get my meaning - but I must concede I do think media plays a role in our perception of both men and women. So I think there's a case to be made for porn being unhealthy. I don't, however, think there's a case to be made for porn being illegal.

What's made me give it a fair amount of thought is that I've always had a problem with keeping it up, which has had a negative effect on 5 relationships before I gave up dating entirely 5 years ago. Several of my woman friends have suggested in recent years that use of porn is to blame. Their suggestion is that the real life women I've dated rarely live up to the expectations created by porn movies.

The counter to this is that I first had sex when you just couldn't get porn in this country and I had a problem even then. The root cause is all sorts of Catholic upbringing issues. I know its mental because I finally managed to enjoy good sex with a very good woman after she stuck with me for two years and got me to a point of being completely unselfconscious about sex. We unfortunately parted ways 3 years after that and the problem came right back.

But I do feel that porn exacerbates the problem, like a bullemic person who chain smokes having difficulty putting on weight even when they conquer their eating issues. That said, several of my friends report that porn stimulates and enhances their sex life, so I don't think that effect is universal.

I am certain, however, that my taste has been influenced, to the extent where a much narrower range of real life women elicit a sexual response from me. Women don't have to have perfect bodies or picture-perfect faces to arouse me, but the parameters have certainly narrowed.

On the other hand, it seems as if older men have always desired younger women throughout history, while younger men are less discriminating. I think this is because men naturally get more selective as they get older. Massive exposure to porn and even non-porn related media featuring women generally probably speeds up the process a lot though.

In some parts of West Africa, rural families send their daughters to fattening schools, where they are actually encouraged to become obese. The fat alone isn't the single criteria for attractiveness. A specific shape is sought and techniques used to try to massage the fat into the right places. Urbanized men from exactly the same ethnic groups who are exposed to a lot of global media often have exactly the opposite taste. In South Africa that's very much the case for Zulus, with the result that women have generally been selected out for rump size. As a result, many urban Zulu women are saddled with gigantic derrieres and saddlebags, even where the rest of there bodies are skinny thanks to careful eating.

So its almost being dispute that what we see frequently shapes our idea of beauty. In this light its obvious that porn affects mens attitudes to women. It should be mentioned, though, that women's and (non-porn) men's magazines play an equally large role. Many young men entering puberty have only mom's mags and the TV as their primary source of female images.

What isn't as obvious is that porn shapes our expectation of women's behaviour. I can say with complete confidence that I don't find submissive, pandering and stupid women any more sexy than assertive and intelligent women in real life. In fact the latter are far sexier. The men I've met that do admire the qualities portrayed by many porn actresses - which, obviously, aren't necessarily their offstage personalities - are men who would think like that regardless of whether porn existed or not. Crude, literal-minded men who prefer action movies, violent sports, copious amounts of alcohol, minimal introspection and an aggressive and confrontational approach to life in general.

I've had three women friends in the sex industry, if stripping, phone sex lines and prostitution are lumped together, and never had a problem with reflexively imagining them "on the job" when I interact with them. I didn't know any of them in the biblical sense, but even if I were to sleep with one of them, or jerk off to nude pictures of them, they would remain far more than just a sex object. The objectification, if any, would be for the duration of the sexual act.

In fact I did fantasize a lot about one of them, a very close friend, for some time, but when we were doing supper, out partying or even sharing a hotel bed in a foreign country, she was simply my friend and confidante. The "objectification" lasted for the duration of a good wank, and not beyond.

So drawing from my own experience I'd say that the impact of porn on men's respect for women and ability to deal with them as intelligent, multidimensional beings is hardly affected at all by porn. The primitive parts of our brain are a beast we feed from time to time, but the beast is not the whole of us or our sole informant for dealing with the world. Those men who are beastly through and through by nature are beastly with or without porn, I think.

Wow i admire honesty. I dont think anything is "wrong" with you. Your just picky. Top that with dwelling on it and you've become your own worse nightmare....."what you think you become". So you need to be mentally connected to whom your fucking. Nothing wrong with that.

[Sweetie]

You want to know what I find interesting?

No offense Endora but it's a fact that you could be three hundred pounds. Men here have expressed that that would not be attractive and yet they talk about fucking Endora.......

because of her avatar. That's interesting, does anybody see why?

[Sweetie]

[
Awh, you're so cute when you're such a fucking arse Sweetie. Maybe your lack of reading abilities are rearing their head again, but we're talking about looking at porn, which, I would hazard a guess, I do far more than you do, considering your anti-porn stance. Do try to stay on topic, for once. It at least makes you look like less of a fucktard than you are.

Aww yes, the perpetual always a bridesmaid, watch everybody else have sex, but never the bride.

I'm sorry honey.

I've looked at my fair share of porn and I've been exposed to it since I was six but I'm sure you're the expert as you are on everything. Really, all your experience with porn isn't going to be detrimental to your actual experience with sex, really, don't even consider the two might possibly come to connect in your world.


Only if you admit you're a feminist.

I'm a Pro-Life feminist who loves men and who thinks females like you, are a crock of shit. Would a feminist even sleep with you and put up with your shit? I wonder.

[Sweetie]

You got natasha all hot and bothered, justaman. :1thumbup:

Just for the record if that's a reference to what I said in the other thread, I'll take the opportunity to clear a few things up:

a) I find the idea of two men together about as exciting as the idea of Adora getting off on the idea of two men together.

I was just kidding around with you guys just in case that wasn't clear.

b) VM, I haven't had a drink in a few months mostly because of my neck problems so I haven't been wasted in a while.

c) I don't drink alot of coffee.

[livius drusus]

Um... You realize Crumb said natasha not Sweetie in that quote, right? :?

[Sweetie]

Um... You realize Crumb said natasha not Sweetie in that quote, right? :?

Right, but I used the phrase "hot and bothered" to Crumb and justaman in a recent thread and I haven't heard that term really used around here otherwise or at least recently so I just thought I'd clear that up in case they didn't realize I was joking around at the time.

[viscousmemories]

b) VM, I haven't had a drink in a few months mostly because of my neck problems so I haven't been wasted in a while.
Why are you responding seriously to a joke I made in a different thread two days ago, when you already responded immediately after I made it, and what possible relevance does it have to this discussion?

[Sweetie]

Why are you responding seriously to a joke I made in a different thread two days ago, when you already responded immediately after I made it, and what possible relevance does it have to this discussion?

It doesn't, like I said, I took the opportunity since I was clarifying a few things I thought I might clear up a few others.

I didn't want to give anyone the impression that I was an alcoholic anymore than I wanted to give anyone the impression that the idea of two men together is attractive to me.

I just didn't want to risk that carrying over and over or leaving that impression behind when I was just being silly as I thought it might've and I could be wrong, with Crumb's reference as I already said.

But you're really not going to nit-pick me about everything for the next few days are you?

[viscousmemories]

But you're really not going to nit-pick me about everything for the next few days are you?
I'm sorry that you think it's "nit-picking" for me to ask why you're responding, again, to a comment I made two days ago in another thread that has no relevance to this topic. To me it isn't nitpicking to expect coherent, on-topic, rational replies on threads.

[Sweetie]

I'm sorry that you think it's "nit-picking" for me to ask why you're responding, again, to a comment I made two days ago in another thread that has no relevance to this topic. To me it isn't nitpicking to expect coherent, on-topic, rational replies on threads.

Kewl.

I guess how high we considered each other is slipping on both sides. Fancy that.

[Endora]

You want to know what I find interesting?

No offense Endora but it's a fact that you could be three hundred pounds. Men here have expressed that that would not be attractive and yet they talk about fucking Endora.......

because of her avatar. That's interesting, does anybody see why?

Hehe hey now i dont think anyone has talked about fucking ME....
Is my avator sexually provokative? Hell yes....Am i gonna say shocking and sexual things while on this board...again yes. Its the persona. Its not ME. :wink:

[Endora]

one more point sweetie...are you saying woman are not visually stimulated by sexual images? So a nice hard cock doesnt do anything for you?

[Beth]

I'm not against porn. There is some porn that is erotic, but I am not that interested in seeking it out. I am against porn that depicts violence of a male or female.

I understand all the sides and respect each side on this issue.

[LadyShea]

I am not against porn. There is some porn that I find personally unpleasant or just plain weird, but undertsand everyone has different preferences.

[Crumb]

Right, but I used the phrase "hot and bothered" to Crumb and justaman in a recent thread and I haven't heard that term really used around here otherwise or at least recently so I just thought I'd clear that up in case they didn't realize I was joking around at the time.
My comment had nothing to do with you or anything you have previously posted. It was merely a lame joke.

[SharonDee]

My only problem with porn is that I don't get its appeal. It does nothing for me and hasn't since I lost my virginity. Before then, though, I couldn't get enough. "So that's how tab A fits into slot B, eh? Interesting."

In fact, I remember my last exposure to porn was last year when Hubster showed me the latest flick he'd downloaded. I wasn't expecting it--he didn't tell me what disc he'd put in the player--and it went straight to the camera's eye view of a vagina and the penis that was preparing to invade it. Yuck!

But a problem with others viewing porn and/or using it to get off? Nope, no skin off my nose.

[livius drusus]

I don't have a problem with porn as a general definition. I have a problem with real violence, and sexual exploitation and abuse. If a piece of pornography depicts this real sexual violence and abuse towards real people, I have a problem with it. But porn, in general, I have no problem with.

And if porn objectifies men/women, then all media does. Personally, I take issue with this whole idea of "objectification". There is real objectification of people in real society - child slavery, using daughters in economic transaction, etc. These people are totally and completely reduced to non-human objects in these transactions, and have no say or power. Depictions of human beings doing human things with full consent is not objectification.

Very much agreed. In fact, judging from the labia laws you mentioned here (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=77080#post77080), an argument could be made that plain ol' nudie mags can be more damaging to women's psyches than porn in all it's widespread beauty.

[RevDahlia]

Worse, I have it on good authority that old Max actually prefers to get young first timers fresh off the street because they're that much more fun to completely humiliate and degrade. I've seen quite a few of those videos myself (hey, it's not like the filenames are descriptive!) and it really does detract from the sexiness (where applicable) knowing what an evil prick that guy really is.
ICK! EW! Those movies are traumatizing enough already -- I'm sorry, watching someone get choke-fucked until she throws up is not my idea of a good time -- but it'd be a whole nother thing if the stars were seasoned porn actresses who knew what they were getting into. As it is, blecch. That's gonna give me nightmares.

[Sweetie]

[

Hehe hey now i dont think anyone has talked about fucking ME....

Oh, sorry, I thought I saw jman make a joke high fiving bey and then depicting a threesome. Which end would he take I wonder?

Anyhoo, I was just wondering if he would do that if you posted a pic and you were three hundred pounds. I doubt it. He probably would regret that he already flirted with you even though it's a meaningless flirtation over the internet.
Is my avator sexually provokative? Hell yes....Am i gonna say shocking and sexual things while on this board...again yes. Its the persona. Its not ME. :wink:

Right, that's my point.

[Sweetie]

one more point sweetie...are you saying woman are not visually stimulated by sexual images?

When did I imply that?

So a nice hard cock doesnt do anything for you?

Oh, well I don't know if I've ever really gotten into what does or does not do it for me. Didn't know that was the point.

Even though granted, this thread is for me and about me.

I realize jman would like to lure me in the cage and control the setting and tell me to dance or argue to his tune or he wins but it doesn't matter where or what I'm singing, he always wins which is why I'm just settling for taking cheap shots at him.

You don't let him get control, I'm not sure he could reliquish it. Well, maybe if liv spanks him, if she's not fat that is.

[Sweetie]

Oh gawd, I must disappear. Vitrol is very exhausting.

I'll come back when all this has died and I'm better able to think without being defensive.

[Endora]

one more point sweetie...are you saying woman are not visually stimulated by sexual images?

When did I imply that?

So a nice hard cock doesnt do anything for you?

Oh, well I don't know if I've ever really gotten into what does or does not do it for me. Didn't know that was the point.

Even though granted, this thread is for me and about me.

I realize jman would like to lure me in the cage and control the setting and tell me to dance or argue to his tune or he wins but it doesn't matter where or what I'm singing, he always wins which is why I'm just settling for taking cheap shots at him.

You don't let him get control, I'm not sure he could reliquish it. Well, maybe if liv spanks him, if she's not fat that is.

....ok then...well i certainly hope this little rant make sense to someone here cause you sound like a looney toon addressing me.

Having just entered in the door im afraid the toy throwing throughtout the threads is pretty much lost on me not to mention not really thought provoking. I have to wonder if this is all this forum does....Yeah its a free thinking forum---key word i focused on was THINK...doesnt seem to be any real debate here just slamming.... :(

[livius drusus]

I know what you mean, Endora. All I can say is that it's a cyclical thing: sometimes it gets really personal and ugly in here, and sometimes it's stimulating and funny and deep. I hope you see the latter soon. :hug:

[LadyShea]

Sweetie, take your meds or pray the rosary or whatever it is you do to be normal. You're ranting like a crazy paranoid person, and scaring poor Endora.

[Carlos]

How old are you all ?
5 to 10 : " What the hell is that? hm it sucks! "

10 to 15 : " Hey guys! I just stole this dvd or magazine from my parents bedroom! Let's see it ! uhihihihh, look at that!

15 to 20 :" I can do it better, with all my traning and experience watching all the styles !

20 to 30 : " babe, do you really think is bigger than mine? I don-t think so"

30 to 40 : " we need to buy some new ones "

40 to 50 : "at least put a picture"

50 to 60? :More to come . I am still doing the researching. Any correction to the previous list is welcome .Copyrighted

Thanks,
Carlos

[Sweetie]

Oh, well I don't know if I've ever really gotten into what does or does not do it for me. Didn't know that was the point.

This thread is not about whether we like porn or which kind of porn we like, but whether or not porn turns people into things which is my meaning of the use of the term "objectification," sex objects. Things to be paid for and used.

The thread police should be here any moment to tell you how things work around here. :wink:

Even though granted, this thread is for me and about me.

This thread is an extention of another thread with my words in quotations.

I realize jman would like to lure me in the cage and control the setting and tell me to dance or argue to his tune or he wins but it doesn't matter where or what I'm singing, he always wins which is why I'm just settling for taking cheap shots at him.

I should have put this in a seperate post so that you didn't think it had anything to do with you. It might make sense to jman or it may not. I'm just simply saying that jman likes to be in control and you can never win with him. He started this thread, since I'm the only one objecting to porn objectifying people but primarily women, for me to prove my statements.

The problem is, there's really no point in arguing with him about anything, he is always right so I haven't bothered arguing except to say that I think one of the reasons I'm against it is because of the way he's talked about women, particulairly fat women or "fatties" etc. in the past.
....ok then...well i certainly hope this little rant make sense to someone here cause you sound like a looney toon addressing me.

My apologies. I was making a reference to your thread in the Welcoming area. I just have a problem with the way justaman talks about fat women and I was just suggesting that if you were fat, then he wouldn't have made an indication of wanting to fuck you with bey via smiley communication. In my head it supports the idea that he is why porn is not so good or the way he thinks and acts towards women is. I could be wrong, I'm used to it by now.


Having just entered in the door im afraid the toy throwing throughtout the threads is pretty much lost on me not to mention not really thought provoking. I have to wonder if this is all this forum does....Yeah its a free thinking forum---key word i focused on was THINK...doesnt seem to be any real debate here just slamming.... :(

I choose to come here and be one of the few token antagonists, I'm just bitchy today.

Oh, and yes, I'm actually nuts, eccentric, on drugs, melodramatic, a dick and a smeglehead or whatever term that is that Australians use. I'm a flake, I'm unreasonable, perhaps a waste of time when something productive could be getting done, like, well I'll not say. Darin what else?

[Sweetie]

Sweetie, take your meds or pray the rosary or whatever it is you do to be normal. You're ranting like a crazy paranoid person, and scaring poor Endora.

Really, you're not trying to make defensive worse.

Just send her some porn from when you were thin, that should distract and appease her. :P

[natasha]

This thread is not about whether we like porn or which kind of porn we like, but whether or not porn turns people into things which is my meaning of the use of the term "objectification," sex objects. Things to be paid for and used.

I thought it was about if "you had a problem with porn." That could be anything. If you like it but have a problem with those that don't, or don't and have a problem with those that do, or the issue of "objectification" -- I didn't read it as just one specific issue being addressed.

[Sweetie]

I thought it was about if "you had a problem with porn." That could be anything. If you like it but have a problem with those that don't, or don't and have a problem with those that do, or the issue of "objectification" -- I didn't read it as just one specific issue being addressed.


This is to avoid a derail in the politics thread.

I think porn is rad. Its detractors say it 'objectifies people', perhaps forgetting that men necessarily objectify women whenever we rub one out, which is - generally - quite often for most men. Porn is simply an open admission that we do it, as far as I'm concerned.

But let's hear other perspectives.

I thougth the question was whether or not porn does or does not objectify people. Perhaps another interpreation is possible? :dunno:

[natasha]

I thought it was about if "you had a problem with porn." That could be anything. If you like it but have a problem with those that don't, or don't and have a problem with those that do, or the issue of "objectification" -- I didn't read it as just one specific issue being addressed.


This is to avoid a derail in the politics thread.

I think porn is rad. Its detractors say it 'objectifies people', perhaps forgetting that men necessarily objectify women whenever we rub one out, which is - generally - quite often for most men. Porn is simply an open admission that we do it, as far as I'm concerned.

But let's hear other perspectives.


I thougth the question was whether or not porn does or does not objectify people. Perhaps another interpreation is possible? :dunno:

:runinbox:

[Endora]

Oh, well I don't know if I've ever really gotten into what does or does not do it for me. Didn't know that was the point.

This thread is not about whether we like porn or which kind of porn we like, but whether or not porn turns people into things which is my meaning of the use of the term "objectification," sex objects. Things to be paid for and used.

The thread police should be here any moment to tell you how things work around here. :wink:

Even though granted, this thread is for me and about me.

This thread is an extention of another thread with my words in quotations.

I realize jman would like to lure me in the cage and control the setting and tell me to dance or argue to his tune or he wins but it doesn't matter where or what I'm singing, he always wins which is why I'm just settling for taking cheap shots at him.

I should have put this in a seperate post so that you didn't think it had anything to do with you. It might make sense to jman or it may not. I'm just simply saying that jman likes to be in control and you can never win with him. He started this thread, since I'm the only one objecting to porn objectifying people but primarily women, for me to prove my statements.

The problem is, there's really no point in arguing with him about anything, he is always right so I haven't bothered arguing except to say that I think one of the reasons I'm against it is because of the way he's talked about women, particulairly fat women or "fatties" etc. in the past.
....ok then...well i certainly hope this little rant make sense to someone here cause you sound like a looney toon addressing me.

My apologies. I was making a reference to your thread in the Welcoming area. I just have a problem with the way justaman talks about fat women and I was just suggesting that if you were fat, then he wouldn't have made an indication of wanting to fuck you with bey via smiley communication. In my head it supports the idea that he is why porn is not so good or the way he thinks and acts towards women is. I could be wrong, I'm used to it by now.


Having just entered in the door im afraid the toy throwing throughtout the threads is pretty much lost on me not to mention not really thought provoking. I have to wonder if this is all this forum does....Yeah its a free thinking forum---key word i focused on was THINK...doesnt seem to be any real debate here just slamming.... :(

I choose to come here and be one of the few token antagonists, I'm just bitchy today.

Oh, and yes, I'm actually nuts, eccentric, on drugs, melodramatic, a dick and a smeglehead or whatever term that is that Australians use. I'm a flake, I'm unreasonable, perhaps a waste of time when something productive could be getting done, like, well I'll not say. Darin what else?

Well good luck with all that....obviously the subject of "weight" is a hot button for you. You cant take it personally if someone doesnt agree with your views about what they find attractive though.. He is not picking on your self worth/image just stating an opinion. This is a free thought forum and your mad at him for speaking his mind? Heck i think hairy back men are gross. I hope all the hairy backed men on the forum dont start attacking me cause i feel this way. *shrug* Dont take it so seriously. So he doesnt like fat chicks--big fucking deal! More then likely you wouldnt want what he has either :wink:

[Adora]

I'm sorry honey.
Yeah, and keep assuming you're up-to-date on my sex life, you ignorant cunt. It's hilarious to watch. No, really. You know about as much about my sex life as you do about feminism. COMEDY GOLD!

I'm a Pro-Life feminist who loves men and who thinks females like you, are a crock of shit. Would a feminist even sleep with you and put up with your shit? I wonder.
And you can keep wondering, because with an attitude like that, who'd ever want to share? And the "loving men" part is as pointless as you using your "anti-life" phrase. I don't hate men. I am not a misandrist. Neither are most feminists. But, y'know, if you actually knew anything about feminism, you'd know this.

And I think I'm done. It's so much more fun watching from the sidelines. I go to sleep and the threads blow out to twice their size XD. Damn. I've got a lot of reading to do...

Perhaps another interpreation is possible?
But let's hear other perspectives.
Blind, much?

[justaman]

I should have put this in a seperate post so that you didn't think it had anything to do with you. It might make sense to jman or it may not. I'm just simply saying that jman likes to be in control and you can never win with him. He started this thread, since I'm the only one objecting to porn objectifying people but primarily women, for me to prove my statements.
People can win with me! They just have to produce good arguments. Dang good arguments.

And while I certainly had you specifically in mind as the respondant, I was actually prompted to start this based on Natashas post, which only very briefly touched on the 'objectification' thing. And that's not to say the topic can't branch out to different areas if it wants to anyway.

The problem is, there's really no point in arguing with him about anything, he is always right so I haven't bothered arguing except to say that I think one of the reasons I'm against it is because of the way he's talked about women, particulairly fat women or "fatties" etc. in the past.

Me flipply calling fat people 'fatties', has nothing to do with my watching porn. In fact it comes from one of my best friends who coined the term after experiencing some psychotic episodes that stemmed from bipolar and whose weight jumped up and down like a yo-yo because of her meds. She had this funny way of saying it, it was cute. :D

My apologies. I was making a reference to your thread in the Welcoming area. I just have a problem with the way justaman talks about fat women and I was just suggesting that if you were fat, then he wouldn't have made an indication of wanting to fuck you with bey via smiley communication. In my head it supports the idea that he is why porn is not so good or the way he thinks and acts towards women is. I could be wrong, I'm used to it by now.
Again, me not being overly attracted to overweight women has nothing to do with porn. I've never been overly attracted to overweight women. :shrug:

I choose to come here and be one of the few token antagonists, I'm just bitchy today.
:pat:

Oh, and yes, I'm actually nuts, eccentric, on drugs, melodramatic, a dick and a smeglehead or whatever term that is that Australians use. I'm a flake, I'm unreasonable, perhaps a waste of time when something productive could be getting done, like, well I'll not say. Darin what else?
Well I dunno, but may I suggest not throwing these in my face as wild accusations when you appear to be acting in perfect accordance with them? Sarcastically complaining about me 'always being right' is somewhat disingenuous when you insist on demonstrating the point for me. :wink:

And it's 'smeghead', you uncultured heathen. :glare:

[Sweetie]

And it's 'smeghead', you uncultured heathen. :glare:

What is that exactly?

[Sweetie]

And you can keep wondering, because with an attitude like that, who'd ever want to share?

I was really fishing for information, riiiight.

And the "loving men" part is as pointless as you using your "anti-life" phrase. I don't hate men. I am not a misandrist. Neither are most feminists. But, y'know, if you actually knew anything about feminism, you'd know this.

You are just so what I want to be when I grow up.

And I think I'm done.

Bows out again? How odd.
Perhaps another interpreation is possible?
But let's hear other perspectives.
Blind, much?

Perspectives on whether it objectifies, no?

[justaman]

And it's 'smeghead', you uncultured heathen. :glare:

What is that exactly?
Couldn't tell ya. It's from Red Dwarf, you see.

[Sweetie]

Well good luck with all that....obviously the subject of "weight" is a hot button for you.

Nah, just referring to women who are overweight as fatties I thought was a bit rude and indicative of an underlying issue. Perhaps I was wrong, though he spoke of a tubby little bitch the other day though that was referencing a ghost that didn't exist, I just kinda thought it was.........well, what I thought it was and meant.

You cant take it personally if someone doesnt agree with your views about what they find attractive though.. He is not picking on your self worth/image just stating an opinion. This is a free thought forum and your mad at him for speaking his mind? Heck i think hairy back men are gross.

Hm, I guess I don't treat men that way either. I don't say hairy back men are gross though I might say I don't prefer hair on the back. I don't prefer crooked teeth either on a guy so there's my little picadilo perhaps. I think my man had braces for three years, lol. Just got them off when I started dating him.

[Sweetie]

Porn.

Hm.

I don't have a big personal problem with porn, you want to lay it all out to all those jerking off, who cares. That's kinda how I look at it but, I don't know man. So much borders just regular porn, just incest porn and beastialility and pedophilia and underage girls and exploitation and it just sometimes seems to me that probably the more responsible thing to do is just.....not make it or support it. Hey, you might not get off as much or whatever or you have to use your imagination but, I just think all porn is dependent in some ways on the existence of each other and the more regular porn is accepted as it is, the more extremes people have to go to. The more there is the pushing of boundries, the greater demands on women to be perfect and just.............pushing all the limits and I think limits are healthy. Granted there's pressure on men but it's just not the same.

Media objectifies people? Perhaps, I just don't really see anything in that arguement at present.

Justaman, your original arguement seems to be that you are objectifying women in your mind anyway therefore why not in another outlet or form?

Do two wrongs make a right? Granted, you may think that neither are wrong but then I don't think just because it's "natural" or "honest" that you admit to it means that that's good and that that justifies objectification in theory and in practice.

[Ari]

Sweetie: I think the responses in this thread would disagree with the idea that regular porn leads to extreme porn. There have also been studies (can't find the exact numbers right now) that suggests porn decreases sex crimes. (The studies are mainly based on the lowering of sex crimes as conservative countries loosen their grips on porn).

[Sweetie]

Oh, I forgot to add that I think most of it is done so badly that it's just not even a temptation.

I think guys who masturbate frequently to porn, well, I think, like I said, it's a turn off.

Maybe if they could do porn well, I don't know. I find some well done and simple sex scenes in some movies more attractive the problem is, it's also more covered up in the sense of more work is done on the people in question to make them look perfect.

I think the intent of porn is a whole bunch of fucking but I think the intent of a movie is to tell a story and sometimes sex scenes are important to tell some of the story with so I don't boycott sex scenes in general. I'm not against the public mimcry of sex persay I don't think.

I'm not even against nudism, I walk around topless in my Mom's backyard, I don't care. Wish I could on the beach too.

There's just something about the porn industry that's just so damned scummy from the randy cum caked hands of the young guys who are doing it (perhaps they use a sock to clean up) to the old farts getting off on youth and younger women. The buying, the selling, the performing, the falsenss, the meaningless except for a momentary thrill which is just..........

I don't tend to favor though, exhibitionists. It's like, "look at me, look at me." Perhaps it's just because I'm a non-conformist that the last thing I want to do is look because everybody else is. The last thing I want to do is offer popularity for it either, everybody else can do that. I'm not into toeing the partyline at all.

[Sweetie]

Sweetie: I think the responses in this thread would disagree with the idea that regular porn leads to extreme porn. There have also been studies (can't find the exact numbers right now) that suggests porn decreases sex crimes. (The studies are mainly based on the lowering of sex crimes as conservative countries loosen their grips on porn).

Eh, I don't know about that one. Maybe. Offer some studies. :shrug:

[Ari]

Wikipedia to the rescue,
Here is a study,
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html

"Both questions lead to hypotheses that have, over prolonged periods, been tested in Denmark, Sweden, West Germany and now in Japan. Indeed it appears from our data from Japan, as it was evident to Kutchinsky (1994), from research in Europe and Scandinavia, that a large increase in available sexually explicit materials, over many years, has not been correlated with an increase in rape or other sexual crimes. Instead, in Japan a marked decrease in sexual crimes has occurred."

I haven't read the full paper yet, but there appears to be more information in it as well.

[Adora]

The most oft-quoted research supposedly into pornographic "desensitisation" to sex-crimes is the 1982 Zilman and Bryant study. Unfortunately, the results of that study have been unable to be repeated by other researchers with exactly the same methodologies and questions for the participants. There are also other studies, such as the 1989 study of psyche students and adult-film-cinemagoers, that shows the cinema goers in the sample had more favourable attittudes towards women than the psychology students.

But the Kutchinsky study is the most oft-quoted and used because it is massive, thourough and long-running over a period of time. It covers many countries and no investigation into the phenomenon since has ever come up to its standards.

It's like, "look at me, look at me."
You mean like the resemblence between your posts and this...?
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/14749PU1f3/503922.jpg

Porn too much of a mirror for you, darling?

Also, just because content is cool.

OH SNAP (http://solomonsrefuge.com/PornStudies.htm) Pick a link. Any link...

[Sweetie]

Wikipedia to the rescue,
Here is a study,
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html

"Both questions lead to hypotheses that have, over prolonged periods, been tested in Denmark, Sweden, West Germany and now in Japan. Indeed it appears from our data from Japan, as it was evident to Kutchinsky (1994), from research in Europe and Scandinavia, that a large increase in available sexually explicit materials, over many years, has not been correlated with an increase in rape or other sexual crimes. Instead, in Japan a marked decrease in sexual crimes has occurred."

I haven't read the full paper yet, but there appears to be more information in it as well.

1994, 1982, 1989? Got any recent studies since the porn industry at least from my perspective, seems to have expanded?

[Sweetie]

The most oft-quoted research supposedly into pornographic "desensitisation" to sex-crimes is the 1982 Zilman and Bryant study. Unfortunately, the results of that study have been unable to be repeated by other researchers with exactly the same methodologies and questions for the participants. There are also other studies, such as the 1989 study of psyche students and adult-film-cinemagoers, that shows the cinema goers in the sample had more favourable attittudes towards women than the psychology students.

But the Kutchinsky study is the most oft-quoted and used because it is massive, thourough and long-running over a period of time. It covers many countries and no investigation into the phenomenon since has ever come up to its standards.

It's like, "look at me, look at me."
You mean like the resemblence between your posts and this...?
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/14749PU1f3/503922.jpg

Porn too much of a mirror for you, darling?

Also, just because content is cool.

OH SNAP (http://solomonsrefuge.com/PornStudies.htm) Pick a link. Any link...

Your online persona is just so sexy. You're such an attractive girl in so many ways. Too bad my image of you, whenever I think of you, I think of that guy.

C'mon Adora. Pull down those shorts! Wo-hoo! I wanna see what you got underneath that all.

[Adora]

since the porn industry at least from my perspective, seems to have expanded?
Prove it.

Also, just as a bonus again: OH SNAP! (http://solomonsrefuge.com/PornStudies.htm)

[Sweetie]

I didn't say though that there was an increase in sex crimes though I think you would be hard pressed to deny that child prostitution and porn has increased, correct?

What I'm basically saying is that I would have a hard time enjoying porn knowing that a guy who's making that film goes to the next house and does the kiddies maybe?

More along that line of thought.

[justaman]

Perhaps I was wrong, though he spoke of a tubby little bitch the other day though that was referencing a ghost that didn't exist.
That was from 'Dogma'.
:indifferent:

I think you need to watch more television if you want to have any chance of getting your assumptions about my motivations for saying things right.

Justaman, your original arguement seems to be that you are objectifying women in your mind anyway therefore why not in another outlet or form?

Do two wrongs make a right? Granted, you may think that neither are wrong but then I don't think just because it's "natural" or "honest" that you admit to it means that that's good and that that justifies objectification in theory and in practice.
Yup, you answered your own question. Deciding to call objectification 'wrong' is like deciding to call taste 'wrong'. You shouldn't judge food based on what it tastes like, you should judge it on what it is.

[Sweetie]

Hm, justaman says porn is rad and he likes it, may I question why you like it quite so much?

Is it a control issue? You can control what you buy, what you watch, which way you like to see it?

Do you have a problem with that in real life, relationships with women and stuff, that you can't control them or they're not just right or?

I have no idea. I'm just curious, you don't need to respond.

Well, younger girls you can control they're just not experienced enough generally to be the porn star just yet though so it's a pro and con.

[Adora]

Just for the record, I'd like to pimp (heh) another really good article here:
The Perils of Covering Porn (http://www.ojr.org/ojr/business/1017866651.php).

though I think you would be hard pressed to deny that child prostitution and porn has increased, correct?
Sweetie, how about you provide some studies and evidence for your own claims. Cos then you may not look like a total idiot. May.

[Sweetie]

That was from 'Dogma'.
:indifferent:

I think you need to watch more television if you want to have any chance of getting your assumptions about my motivations for saying things right.

Right. I thought Dogma sucked, the shit demon literally just about made me throw up right there but I was eight months pregnant so, perhaps I was sensitive.

Yup, you answered your own question. Deciding to call objectification 'wrong' is like deciding to call taste 'wrong'. You shouldn't judge food based on what it tastes like, you should judge it on what it is.

That's irrelevant. Right and wrong really weren't the point.

Your arguement is that because you already objectify women in your mind therefore it's just honesty that you do it in real life. I'm just basically saying that one doesn't equal or justify the other.

[Sweetie]

Just for the record, I'd like to pimp (heh) another really good article here:
The Perils of Covering Porn (http://www.ojr.org/ojr/business/1017866651.php).

though I think you would be hard pressed to deny that child prostitution and porn has increased, correct?
Sweetie, how about you provide some studies and evidence for your own claims. Cos then you may not look like a total idiot. May.

Right-o. If I looked like a total idiot someone might think we're related. Can't do that.

[Sweetie]

Sweetie, how about you provide some studies and evidence for your own claims. Cos then you may not look like a total idiot. May.

FYI, I'm just momentarily on my Mom's computer while we're awaiting a possible severe thunderstorm with the great potential for tornados that will be here right away through the night and supposedly on to tommorrow. I'm not really searching for papers at the moment, just thinking for the most part.

Just in case you wanted to know. Tomorrow though I'll look for some studies if that will ease your constipation.

Ciao all! :wave:

[Ari]

1994, 1982, 1989? Got any recent studies since the porn industry at least from my perspective, seems to have expanded?

Your perspective may not be the best one to go by. Those dates surround a huge boom in the porn industry. The dates themselves aren't as important as the rest of the information. Since many countries have looser porn laws than they used too, studies need to go back to when they were strict and track the progress.
I hope this isn't an attempt to ignore the data because you don't like the dates of the study.

I didn't say though that there was an increase in sex crimes though

No you didn't but you did say, "So much borders just regular porn, just incest porn and beastialility and pedophilia and underage girls and exploitation and it just sometimes seems to me that probably the more responsible thing to do is just.....not make it or support it."

In which case the link was to provide evidence that regular porn doesn't support sex crime behavior and that it may actually reduce it. Thus supporting it is not supporting sex crimes but may actually be supporting prevention.

I think you would be hard pressed to deny that child prostitution and porn has increased, correct?

Studies to back this up please. :)
If child prostitution and porn have inceased, that doesn't mean they correlate. According to the study I gave, they do not at all.
Remember in japan porn of younger people is more acceptable, yet sex crimes have decreased with the increase in porn.


What I'm basically saying is that I would have a hard time enjoying porn knowing that a guy who's making that film goes to the next house and does the kiddies maybe?

Sure. Except that it is an unsubstantiated assumption.
I could just as easily say, "I would have a hard time enjoying church knowing the priest is going to go into the back and do the kiddies." and it would have more subtantialation.

[justaman]

That's irrelevant. Right and wrong really weren't the point.
Or - alternatively - they are. :) See below.

Your arguement is that because you already objectify women in your mind therefore it's just honesty that you do it in real life. I'm just basically saying that one doesn't equal or justify the other.
Only things that are potentially 'wrong' need to be justified. If it isn't wrong, then your concern is not required.

And before you march off triumphantly claiming I objectify all women so that you can dredge it up in some argument 6 months from now, bear in mind I'm talking specifically about porn and sex and other situations where we aren't expected or required to think about an individual holistically. So that doesn't mean that just because we see nothing bar the T and A of a particular porn girl that we see nothing but the T and A of all girls. It's this leap you seem to be making that's illogical. And demonstrably so, because you - more or less - admit to objectifying men when sexually fantasizing about them, yet I'm sure you don't objectify all men all the time in the same fashion. So your concerns are unfounded.

[koan]

It's really a shame that this has turned into personal attacks. I, personally, find the issue itself quite interesting. I think that openness to discuss sexuality is key to liberating both men and women. Taking comments and saying "oh, this is what you must like in your own sexual life" stifle conversation. I would like to be able to make a statement and not have people believe they now know something about my personal preferences in the bedroom or make some instant moral judgement on whether my preferences are "good" or "bad".

[Crumb]

Adora, just for my sanity could you never post that hideous picture again? pretty please? :wink:

[natasha]

It's really a shame that this has turned into personal attacks. I, personally, find the issue itself quite interesting. I think that openness to discuss sexuality is key to liberating both men and women. Taking comments and saying "oh, this is what you must like in your own sexual life" stifle conversation. I would like to be able to make a statement and not have people believe they now know something about my personal preferences in the bedroom or make some instant moral judgement on whether my preferences are "good" or "bad".

Agreed. :appl:

[seebs]

I didn't say though that there was an increase in sex crimes though I think you would be hard pressed to deny that child prostitution and porn has increased, correct?

What I'm basically saying is that I would have a hard time enjoying porn knowing that a guy who's making that film goes to the next house and does the kiddies maybe?

More along that line of thought.

Even if both had increased, there'd be no reason to assume the groups have substantial overlap. In fact, as I understand it, it's rather the opposite; people who get off with adults are less interested in kids.

[Carlos]

It's really a shame that this has turned into personal attacks. .

Did you feel attacked?

They are free ( like you did) to : "say what they like, and say what they think.."

Thanks,
Carlos

[Farren]

Yeah but Carlos, its still a shame when people get hung up on each other's bad attributes rather than the matter at hand, even if they're free to do so. I agree with Koan (not to make anyone feel pointed out - God knows all of us do it from time to time).

[JoeP]

Yeah, and keep assuming you're up-to-date on my sex life, you ignorant cunt. It's hilarious to watch. No, really. You know about as much about my sex life as you do about feminism. COMEDY GOLD!
So that's why you weren't posting! I'm thrilled for you.

[JoeP]

And it's 'smeghead', you uncultured heathen. :glare:

What is that exactly?
Couldn't tell ya. It's from Red Dwarf, you see.
Almost certainly derived from 'smegma'. Thus, "your head looks like it's covered with the whitish deposit found under the integument of the glans penis".

Almost certainly never admitted to be this though.

eta: Mind you, 'smeglehead' has a ring to it. Worth re-using.
eata: Nice smeglehead. Hobbitses must trust smeglehead.

[JoeP]

Adora, just for my sanity could you never post that hideous picture again? pretty please? :wink:
Crumb ... what sanity?
:twoguns: :fbowl:

[Crumb]

What little I have left...

[koan]

The only porn I've personally seen that disturbed me actually had no intercourse in it. It was a series of scenes where women, who appeared scared were tied up and left in a room then the captor would return, adjust the bonds and leave them again. One room after another. No sexual contact at all. It creeped me out.

[Sweetie]

Only things that are potentially 'wrong' need to be justified. If it isn't wrong, then your concern is not required.

I used your original arguement as a launchpad. I objectify women in my mind therefore what difference does it make if I do out outside my mind, or in reality?

That's what I thought your arguement was.

I'm saying that just because you do it in your mind doesn't mean you should do it in your mind or even though you do it in your mind, for instance, pedophiles do "things" in their mind, doesn't mean that outwardly it's a good thing to do in the same way as it is not good for pedophiles to act on their "minds" because it causes harm.

At that point you would just say, no harm caused. That's the question.

Then you argue that because I "fantasize" about men perhaps, since you really have no idea what "turns my crank" then therefore I do it too. I'm just having hard time with all that because all the lines are so damned fuzzy and then we have differences when dealing with females and males on this issue which is why I tend to single out males as the main objectifiers and women as the main targets.

So that doesn't mean that just because we see nothing bar the T and A of a particular porn girl that we see nothing but the T and A of all girls.

I don't know what that means.

It's this leap you seem to be making that's illogical.

And demonstrably so, because you - more or less - admit to objectifying men when sexually fantasizing about them, yet I'm sure you don't objectify all men all the time in the same fashion. So your concerns are unfounded.

Well, at the very least I thought I had said previously that I pretty much don't find men visually stimulating at all so that's neither here nor there. I can't "use" pictures of them.

I don't know that I want to say anymore than that except to say that anything that tends to turn my crank stems from love or at least respect and is mutually beneficial as opposed to making anyone a thing even in my mind, to be used, degraded, pin cushion, bought or sold, discarded, forgotten, etc. Or even what I am interested in tends to be based on the person and the mind and the heart and the sexuality of them.


bear in mind I'm talking specifically about porn and sex and other situations where we aren't expected or required to think about an individual holistically.

And my question is, why aren't you expected to do that? I'm raised Catholic so I've always been taught to keep an eye on the bigger picture, and on myself at the same time. I can't not think about everybody else even when I'm thinking about myself which is why I tend to say that I wish I could lose myself to feeling for instance, I can't lose myself to feeling if I can see even in the long run, something hurting someone. I can't then, enjoy the feeling.

I think alot of women who are in porn flicks are abusing themselves, self-inflicted abuse. I don't know why but after twenty-seven years on this planet, it's only this year that I've come to see porn as an act of violence even though I have at times previously enjoyed porn to a certain extent. I don't know why I think it's violent, I can't tell you why specifically, maybe because I think it's ultimately abusive even if the abuse is self-inflicted. Maybe I just think it's more emotionally mature not to be really interested in it. My husband was desensitized pretty much by seventeen and a relationship with me was better to him.

You may question that and please do. LadyShea who has "experienced" this may come and say that is indeed not even possibly the case. Koan can speak of that she thinks alot of these women use drugs to anesthesize themselves for when they have to do acts that seem so great, but actually are painful.

There's a whole bunch of thoughts and theories and whatnot.

I don't know.

FYI, as far as my post about control, that was because of your reference in another thread about three "wangs" so to speak. Not sure if that was a bloated figure but if it wasn't, that could indicate an addiction which would be one of several indicators of how porn can be harmful which would be important to my argument. Just a thought.

You're still cool though. :shrug:

You gotta keep in mind, you're trying to put me under the microscope and the general idea is that if one is Catholic and anti-porn that is tantamount to being "backwards" to alot of people. I'm sure I'm going to hear for weeks little shots about "objectification" here and there. That idea plus all of your previous insults just kinda got me defensive. Why do you want to talk to me if I'm backwards, insane and melodramatic? If that's the case, I would prefer you not bother with me at all. What's the purpose for you, what goal is there? I have enough enemies and I'm not good enough for enough people, I don't need to have people I care about being that to me. Having to deal with Adora tends to raise the level of temper around here too.

As to the fattie reference, if you don't recall, I told you it might be offensive to all the overweight women here and suggested you remove it. If I recall correctly, your response was that you didn't care if you offended so, you sometimes liked being offensive. :shrug: Backpeddling? I don't know.



Say what you want, say what you think.

Peace and Luv Darin,
Rebecca

[Sweetie]

Sure. Except that it is an unsubstantiated assumption.
I could just as easily say, "I would have a hard time enjoying church knowing the priest is going to go into the back and do the kiddies." and it would have more subtantialation.

I'm really not interested in that line of thought today and I don't intend to be here for long at the moment. I don't know, I'm not running from the arguement I'll just maybe start a thread in a week or so and I'll focus on that particular line of thought.

[Sweetie]

Even if both had increased, there'd be no reason to assume the groups have substantial overlap.

It's both possible that they do and do not overlap. I had suggested before that from what I've seen of yaoi, that it's seems to be a blend of the two but I could be wrong, that's what I see.

In fact, as I understand it, it's rather the opposite; people who get off with adults are less interested in kids.

Que?

[Endora]

The only porn I've personally seen that disturbed me actually had no intercourse in it. It was a series of scenes where women, who appeared scared were tied up and left in a room then the captor would return, adjust the bonds and leave them again. One room after another. No sexual contact at all. It creeped me out.

Sorry koan..I thought the camara was off.... :ffwink:

[Adora]

I think alot of women who are in porn flicks are abusing themselves, self-inflicted abuse.
And you know a lot of women who work in the porn industry, do you?

[seebs]

It's both possible that they do and do not overlap. I had suggested before that from what I've seen of yaoi, that it's seems to be a blend of the two but I could be wrong, that's what I see.

Depends. There's certainly subgenres of yaoi that are obsessive about kids way too young to fuck, but the majority of it appears to involve full-grown adults.

In fact, as I understand it, it's rather the opposite; people who get off with adults are less interested in kids.

Que?

I'm not sure what part of this was ambiguous or confusing. People who are attracted to adults are less likely to be attracted to kids than people who aren't. If someone finds porn with adults in it interesting or involving, that more than likely indicates disinterest in kids.

[justaman]

At that point you would just say, no harm caused. That's the question.
And it's answered thus: objectification doesn't hurt anyone. Action hurts.

Well, at the very least I thought I had said previously that I pretty much don't find men visually stimulating at all so that's neither here nor there.
I don't really believe this, but I'm not sure it's relevant. We all must objectify the moment that we engage with someone who we don't know 'everything' about. So if I'm looking at a female cop, she might very well be a mother, a violinist, someone who secretly hates Jews, someone who gets off on kinky brands of sex, but I am expected to treat her as nothing but a cop, and if I don't, I'll get in trouble. That is objectification that is not only 'not bad' but necessary.

And my question is, why aren't you expected to do that?
For the very simple reason that we don't know enough about the person to do it. It would be disingenuously presumptuous of us to even attempt it.

I don't know why I think it's violent, I can't tell you why specifically, maybe because I think it's ultimately abusive even if the abuse is self-inflicted.
Or maybe you're just incorrect to think this. Believing something without having any idea why and then searching for the justification is just bad logic.

FYI, as far as my post about control, that was because of your reference in another thread about three "wangs" so to speak. Not sure if that was a bloated figure but if it wasn't, that could indicate an addiction which would be one of several indicators of how porn can be harmful which would be important to my argument. Just a thought.
And in ill-conceived one. It's a little tiresome having to correct the misconceptions you have apparently drawn from posts I've made in entirely different contexts in other threads, in personal PMs to you and in posts I've made months ago.

In this specific instance that was a very flip remark I made about familiarity with porn. Again, it has nothing to do with what I prefer in real life, so your relating it to this topic is once again inappropriate.

As to the fattie reference, if you don't recall, I told you it might be offensive to all the overweight women here and suggested you remove it. If I recall correctly, your response was that you didn't care if you offended so, you sometimes liked being offensive. :shrug: Backpeddling? I don't know.
Actually it was because I didn't think anyone would be offended. If you are going to publicize messages I intended as private, I would appreciate it if you at least remained accurate.

[Sweetie]

And it's answered thus: objectification doesn't hurt anyone. Action hurts.

And my contention, the porn industry objectifies and supporting it, action, hurts. Yes, I only got a few minutes, my Grandma's visiting. I have every intention of trying to put together an arguement/evidence to prove that when I have more time.

I don't really believe this, but I'm not sure it's relevant. We all must objectify the moment that we engage with someone who we don't know 'everything' about.

My question is, is there a difference between the way a man views another person sexually and the way a woman views another sexually?

So if I'm looking at a female cop, she might very well be a mother, a violinist, someone who secretly hates Jews, someone who gets off on kinky brands of sex, but I am expected to treat her as nothing but a cop, and if I don't, I'll get in trouble. That is objectification that is not only 'not bad' but necessary.

So you're looking at a female cop thinking she has only one primary use, don't you just wish she'd take her clothes off so that you can enjoy. You'd pay for the pleasure. That's objectification, not knowing her personally, not being interested in who she is, it's not if you care about how she feels when you are thinking that or acting on that. "Hey baby, let's see those tits."

That type of thing.

What does it mean to you, to objectify?

For the very simple reason that we don't know enough about the person to do it. It would be disingenuously presumptuous of us to even attempt it.

Eh, I don't even see a connection. Porn exists for the sole purpose as you stated in the OP, of catering to an existing demand that primarily men have for visual sexual stimulation which you admit, I think once again in the OP, is objectification.

I never claimed you had to know everything about a girl you're interested in sleeping with, but to want a woman and to pay for a woman and to do this or that for the sole purpose of using her for sexual purposes is what I call objectification and it is what I object to.

Or maybe you're just incorrect to think this. Believing something without having any idea why and then searching for the justification is just bad logic.

Or maybe I'm just a woman, maybe I'm biased by experience, maybe I know what being used feels like, being a thing feels like, being violated feels like, doing something sexual just for someone else's gratification, etc. Volition doesn't remove the natural feelings associated with these things.

I don't claim my experience is everyone's experience, but I do think what I have experienced has some relation to some of what some of these girls most likely are experiencing or feeling or at least have at some point.

I think it's naivate to think otherwise but some women out there could enjoy it naturally. :shrug:



And in ill-conceived one. It's a little tiresome having to correct the misconceptions you have apparently drawn from posts I've made in entirely different contexts in other threads, in personal PMs to you and in posts I've made months ago.

Then don't. I'm sorry, I remember things correctly or incorrectly and I remember a large amount of things so they are there for comparison. I'm building something in my head always based on differing thoughts and my systems are being continually altered according to new information or recorrected information.

I can't really dileanate (that the right word?) my thoughts. I can't forget and I can't not compare, the system is incomplete or not understandable without them, more and more information.

I am always open to the possibility that I could be wrong. I am always open to correction.

In this specific instance that was a very flip remark I made about familiarity with porn.

Cool. I had never personally ever heard about a guy sitting there getting off three times in a row. Most I know of once and they're done but. :shrug: So I wondered.

Again, it has nothing to do with what I prefer in real life, so your relating it to this topic is once again inappropriate.

But like I said, whether porn is good or bad is dependent upon whether it is harmful or not, correct? Addiction is harmful, correct?

Actually it was because I didn't think anyone would be offended. If you are going to publicize messages I intended as private, I would appreciate it if you at least remained accurate.

:chin: Yeah, I think it was private I think though the gist of all that was public. Sorry.

Just trying to effectively burn some bridges of course. :yup:



I wanted to clear something else up for others or for you if you need it, I don't know. Men may masturbate as they wish. Man, I've encountered several of them doing so several times, walk into a room it's like "fuck", turn around and slam the door. I didn't just see that, grrrrrr.

Some of my friends, it's like really guys, all three of you are heterosexual but you sit there in the same general area and just whip it out while watching a movie and that's fine with y'all? My sexuality and female sexuality is just different, not always, but mostly I think. We just don't do that, some do, maybe, I don't know.

Too, I spoke of myself having a reaction to cum, I don't like it and I sure don't like thinking about young guys for instance, cumming their pants, or cleaning it up or sitting there with kleenex and lotion or whatever. It's not attractive, I personally don't know any woman who finds it attractive though I'm sure there are several women who do. You want to be honest about fat women, I'll be honest about male masturbation. Most of us it's like when the men get started on the masturbation jokes, it's time to like, go dance or something. :shrug:

I don't claim that's true in all cases and I didn't really intend my saying such to be offensive or more offensive than just simply true and for the sake of stating a fact.

[Adora]

I personally don't know any woman who finds it attractive
You do now. Here, have a celebratory cookie. But really, what's your point and relation of this personal information to porn, again? Cos this just sounds like your usual attention whoring to me.

[LadyShea]

Sweetie, objectification can take many more forms than sexual. At work you are an object to get your job done, most managers and CEOs don't give a shit if an individual employee likes to knit or whatever.

The example given about a cop. One objectifies a cop as just that, the rest of who or what they are becomes irrelevant.

[Sweetie]

Eh, I'll be moving on I guess.

As to the whether porn is harmful or not, if you're interested in carrying that over to CF I might get around to it though I hate the Morality forums 'cause of the Moderators. This week is pretty much shot as far as getting any thinking done goes, FYI.

Peace,
Rebecca