Driving Drunk

[viscousmemories]

The reason you should be careful when you're driving at night is because people like me exist. Before I quit drinking last year, I used to drink and drive on a fairly regular basis. Sometimes when I was so drunk I was nearly unconscious. I can think of at least three times when I was so drunk and depressed that I drove recklessly on purpose, tired of life. Like one time driving 100mph on city streets, completely disregarding traffic lights.

Or another time (just a few years ago) making the 4-5 hour drive from Ann Arbor to Alpena as fast as I could get the little Toyota to go. Periodically dozing and waking up when the car swerved onto the dirt shoulder. I wasn't pulled over that night, but I have been pulled over for speeding or other violations numerous times while drunk. I've had to do the Alphabet Dance on more than a few occasions (reciting the alphabet forward and backward, standing on one foot, touching your nose, counting from 47 to 25 backward, etc.) I was actually pretty good at this, apparently, as I have never received a DUI or similar infraction.

A few years ago I was driving home in a fairly heavy snow, so drunk I forgot where I was going. I turned right into an apartment complex thinking I had turned right on the upcoming road, and didn't realize my mistake until I had driven right through the wooden guard rail blocking the entrance. When the guard came out and asked me where I was going I couldn't even figure out where I was. The cops that showed up and gave me the Alphabet Dance were unimpressed by my forgetting the stop number on the reverse count, and even less impressed by the breathalizer results. However as was my luck, they said they were too busy to take me in what with the bad weather, and let me take a cab home.

About 5 years prior to that I spent 90 days in jail and six months in a rehab after stealing and driving around in a Park Ranger truck while drunk. I was literally passing out on my feet while they were booking me; the cop nearly had to hold me up. I guess because they had me so dead to rights on that one they never pursued their suspicion that I had done the same thing just two weeks earlier, nor do they know I drove that one all the way to Chicago and back before abandoning it.

Still, of the 10 felonies and a handful of misdemeanors I ended up being charged with, not one charge was for drunk driving. When I got out of rehab I found out my driver's license had been suspended for a year because I had used an automobile during the commission of a felony, but since I'd been away for 9 months I didn't miss it for very long. And still never a DUI.

I'm not trying to glamorize any of this. On the contrary, I realize now that my behavior was that of a complete sociopath. But I'm an alcoholic, I guess. After many different rehabs and years past of involvement with AA and other treatment programs, I can't honestly say I fully understand, agree with or believe in alcoholism as a "disease", but one thing I know for sure is that until last year, alcohol had the number one priority in my life. I cared more about drinking than I did about the possibility that I might kill or seriously injure myself or others. I drove drunk because drunk people have poor judgement and I didn't care enough to be proactive. I viewed driving drunk as an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of being me. Just like drinking.

I used to say things like, "Yeah I got so drunk last night I had to check the grill on my car for blood and hair". I never thought that was funny, it was just something I said to try to cover how guilty and stupid I felt about my behavior. The fact that other people did find it funny helped. It's strange, but I've found it's rare that someone will respond to such a comment with moral outrage. The few who have, though, have really stood out to me. I have a lot of respect for people who take serious things seriously. Obviously I've been lacking in that department.

Sadly, there literally have been times when a physical examination of my car, clothes and person would tell me more about the night before than I could recall. And yet I joked about it. Acted as if it was beyond my control or like I was immune from the negative consequences. "I can't afford a cab", "I'm fine, I've been driving drunk for years", "I've never had a DUI yet, I doubt I'll get one tonight", etc.

Anyway... just wanted to get that off my chest. I apologize to my fellow man for having been such an asshole. I'm doing a lot better now, and I'll try to do even better.

[dave_a]

I got blitzed out of my mind once before and behind the wheel of a car. I had driven previously when I probably shouldn't have, but this was the first, and last, time I really, really shouldn't have.

Got arrested for DUI.

Changed me real quick.

Glad you got your act together. In a sense it's unfortunate you never got the DUI previously. Then again at that time in your life it may not have made a difference.

[LadyShea]

Thanks for the post, VM. Really honest and straightforward.

reciting the alphabet forward and backward

Backward? I can't recite the alphabet backward right now, sober as the day I was born.

[wildernesse]

A recent local horror story like this one (http://onlineathens.com/stories/083104/new_20040831015.shtml) (use Bugmenot.com for sign in info) would seem to make anyone take second thoughts about drinking and driving.

Alcoholism is a dangerous thing when the person doesn't or can't care about it--whether it's an illness/predisposition or whatever. It's absolute hell on families. Good luck working on it and doing better.

[Dingfod]

I must confess that I've driven while impaired by alcohol. I always knew that I was impaired though and most often took backroads (dirt roads, in this case) back to my wee village to get home to avoid detection by law enforcement, and also to minimize exposing the public to my impaired driving. I don't know why I quit driving while drunk, maybe I grew up when I was faced with being a father, I cannot think of anything that was as life altering for me as that was. Since those days some two decades ago, I drink to excess very seldom, but when I do, I make sure I am either walking distance from a place to crash (bad choice of words, I guess) or I use alternate forms of transportation. The last time I partied like it was 1999, my daughter offered to pick me up downtown. Even though I drank quite a bit early in the evening, I more or less quit drinking by 10 pm and was stone sober at 2:30 AM when the party wound down.

Equally scary though, is driving while drowsy. Your mentioning joking about looking for hair and blood reminded me of one time I drove home after a midnight shift more or less on autopilot. I was listening to the radio in the truck and heard a news bulletin that came on right as I pulled into my driveway that there had been a hit-and-run in a school zone and the police were looking for a small black truck. It dawned on me right then that I didn't actually remember any of my commute home, I had done it that automatically. I was afraid it might've been me. I got out of my black Ford Ranger and actually physically looked a the grill and bumper for any sign of hair, blood or damage. There was none. When I got in the house, I turned on the TV, and the news reported the location of the accident, which was nowhere near my commute. Whew! Lucked out.

Another time, same situation, driving home after a midnight shift, only this time it was a Sunday morning. I pulled up to a stop in the left turn lane at a redlight after getting off the freeway, slipped the truck out of gear and waited for the light to turn green. The next thing I knew I was awakened by some guy honking his car horn at me from behind. The green arrow was lit, so I put the truck in gear and took off. The bad think was, I had no idea whether I was sitting there asleep for 20 seconds or 20 minutes. Traffic was light enough early Sunday mornings that it could've easily been the latter. Scary.

[AspenMama]

VM-- it was not only brave of you to post this, but I think it helpful. Glad you made it through.

[viscousmemories]

Glad you got your act together. In a sense it's unfortunate you never got the DUI previously. Then again at that time in your life it may not have made a difference.
Thanks dantonac. You're right, it probably wouldn't have made any difference. The only thing that might have, and which I've always thought might be a good idea, is to stamp offenders drivers license with "No Alcohol" and prohibit retailers from selling to people whose ID is so labeled.

Thanks for the post, VM. Really honest and straightforward.
It embarrasses me when I think of all the people I've hurt and/or endangered in my life as a result of drinking excessively, so I'm not really very comfortable with accepting praise for talking about it, but thanks anyway. :)

Backward? I can't recite the alphabet backward right now, sober as the day I was born.
Hehe. Well you'd be surprised what you can do under duress. Like I said, though, even if you're good at doing the alphabet and counting backward, you can get caught up on a technicality. In that one case I was so confident I could count backward 'til the cows come home that I forgot what number I was supposed to stop on. So at some point I was all, "Want me to keep going?" and the cop was like, "Well actually I told you to stop at such and such number" which I had long since passed by. Doh!

A recent local horror story like this one (http://onlineathens.com/stories/083104/new_20040831015.shtml) (use Bugmenot.com for sign in info) would seem to make anyone take second thoughts about drinking and driving.
Oh what a horrible story. The sickest part of that is that it's not remotely surprising to me. I'm sure the driver never noticed what happened, made it home, thought his friend was just passed out and left him there to sleep it off. I could so easily have been in that position once or twice. *shudder*

Alcoholism is a dangerous thing when the person doesn't or can't care about it--whether it's an illness/predisposition or whatever. It's absolute hell on families.
I know, believe me.

Good luck working on it and doing better.
Thanks. :)

I don't know why I quit driving while drunk, maybe I grew up when I was faced with being a father, I cannot think of anything that was as life altering for me as that was.
Seems like good enough reason to me.

Equally scary though, is driving while drowsy. Your mentioning joking about looking for hair and blood reminded me of one time I drove home after a midnight shift more or less on autopilot. I was listening to the radio in the truck and heard a news bulletin that came on right as I pulled into my driveway that there had been a hit-and-run in a school zone and the police were looking for a small black truck. It dawned on me right then that I didn't actually remember any of my commute home, I had done it that automatically. I was afraid it might've been me. I got out of my black Ford Ranger and actually physically looked a the grill and bumper for any sign of hair, blood or damage. There was none. When I got in the house, I turned on the TV, and the news reported the location of the accident, which was nowhere near my commute. Whew! Lucked out.
Yeah, that's a really good point. Lack of sleep, distractions such as eating or talking on the phone, even just plain old "driving while under the influence of emotions" are all potentially dangerous. I'm a very defensive and cautious driver now and actually have been for the majority of my adult years (when not drunk of course). But if you take a driver who eats and talks on the phone, drives aggressively, etc. on a regular basis and compare that to how often I drove drunk (and of course factoring in that most of the time I drove drunk I was actually extra careful, not wanting to get pulled over) it's probably safe to say that I've been a safer driver overall. When I'm awake, anyway. I suffer from what seems to be mild narcolepsy too. Kinda pass out behind the wheel pretty easily if I'm at all tired or if I've been driving longer than 2 hours.

VM-- it was not only brave of you to post this, but I think it helpful. Glad you made it through.
Like I said above I don't think I deserve much praise for talking about doing dumb shit I never should've been doing in the first place, but thanks anyway AM. :)

[wildernesse]

Equally scary though, is driving while drowsy.


I have to agree--and I've heard that being tired can have the same effects as drinking on your driving ability. Which is certainly food for thought. But it's pretty amazing what a shot of adrenaline will do to wake you up (unfortunately, I'm more aware of that than I should be).

[viscousmemories]

I have to agree--and I've heard that being tired can have the same effects as drinking on your driving ability. Which is certainly food for thought. But it's pretty amazing what a shot of adrenaline will do to wake you up (unfortunately, I'm more aware of that than I should be).
I was actually a witness to a fatal accident wherein the woman driving apparently fell asleep at the wheel. She was driving toward me (but in her own lane), but swerving a bit. Then she turned in front of me as if turning into a driveway to my right, but it was a lightpole not a driveway. It was creepy, like slow-motion. She wasn't going fast, but fast enough that when she hit the pole the hood and driver's door popped open and steam was coming up from under the hood.

I stopped but didn't really know what to do, so I went door to door knocking until someone let me in to call the cops, and when the first cop arrived I went and looked in the passenger's side of the car while he looked in the driver's side. All I could see was a jacket on the passenger seat. Maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough because I didn't want to see anything else. I looked up at the cop and asked, "Are there people in there?" and he said, grimly, "Yeah, there's people in there".

I was on my way home from a party (it was like 4:30 a.m.) so I was still kinda high, and so feared that the cop was going to start asking me questions. Plus I was just wigged out. So I walked away, got in my car, and drove away. The next day the front page of the local newspaper said, "Police seek key witness in fatal car accident", so I called them. A couple detectives came to my work and asked me a few questions, and said my story lined up with what they thought: She fell asleep.

That was a pretty creepy night.

[Farren]

I used to drive in every state of mind imaginable: Drunk, stoned on Marijuana, Tripping on mushrooms or LSD, buzzing on E, you name it. Of the 6-odd (mostly minor) accidents I've had in my life, very instance bar one was dead sober.

One night I was driving blind drunk (on Jack Daniels, of course) behind a driver that despite my badly inebriated state him-or-herself was obviously worse drunk than me. He/she was (very, very slowly), weaving left and right like a fly on a computer screen in a dark room. I was travelling at a fair clip and when I decided, optimistically, to overtake, he/she took an unexpected turn, I panicked and landed about 2 metres from the edge of Germiston (Johannesburg) lake, stopped by the low wooden poles that had destroyed the front end of my car. No-one including me was hurt.

After that never again. I realised that a pedestrian could have been taking a quiet stroll alongside the lake at that time which would have ended in tragedy and that all my (some of them equally debauched friends) were always willing and vocal about letting me sleep over. I'm still a complete rubbish but I always accept such offers now and am less concerned about the comforts of my own home than the welfare of other citizens.

I have a friend who was jailed for manslaughter for a couple of years because of a prediliction for cocaine and booze that resulted in him killing a (also, ironically but no less sadly, equally drunk and possibly coked up) guy from a standing start pulling away from a sidewalk. He's dealt with it and I don't judge my friends who are honest and conscientious (as he is), but I would hate to have that even behind me.

Even though I have not driven drunk, stoned or otherwise mentally impaired in a few years, there's a part of me that says "such is life", though, and feels that we try to hard to ascribe negative moral judgement on what are ultimately failings and weaknesses rather than malicious intentions. In fact, we often ascribe worse moral value to such acts than deliberate malignancy.

Maybe I read to much Hunter S. Thompson in my youth but I can't help feeling that the desperate and the chaotic is an essential component of life - at least, life if it is to be appreciated to the full. That in order to live life to the full one has to treat other human beings as if they are potential "Acts of God", to use the parlayance of insurance companies.

The argument can, of course, easily be made that whenever a human agent is involved blame can and should be prescribed if we are to achieve some kind of utopian society.

I can't help feeling, however, that our continued attempts to eliminate such behaviour with consciencious and well-considered (seeming) laws suck the raw marrow out of life and somehow we trade joie de vive for safety and security. There is a part of me that is willing to indulge my fellow humans their every not-malignently-intended-vice, to gamble a little of my own safety, in return for living in a world that indulges my own. I am prepared to sacrifice my own safety for the sense of limitless freedom it might allow me.

What I'm saying is I'm willing to die for a little more liberating anarchy in the world. Death is no great event for a non theistic Buddhist and the death of those close to you is equally non-tragic (I've experienced two) when you realise that the concept of self is a transitory indulgence of matter that can neither be created nor destroyed (I really do believe that for humanity to possess a quality that is fundamental, as opposed to emergent, like many believe consciousness is, it must be part of the stuff of matter itself - that of necessity every atom must have qualia as significant as that of the whole human).

I say this having already enjoyed such freedom and consciously choosing not to exercise it any more out of a simple sense of compassion, but it conflicts with an otherwise generous and socially conscious nature, so I offer these statements not to make a cohesive argument, but to present the conflicted state which exists in my thoughts and is brought to the foreground by your posts, Tom, although I don't often think about it. What comes to mind is the phrase I've seen quoted on IIDB: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"

[Corona688]

What I'm saying is I'm willing to die for a little more liberating anarchy in the world. Death is no great event for a non theistic Buddhist and the death of those close to you is equally non-tragic (I've experienced two) when you realise that the concept of self is a transitory indulgence of matter that can neither be created nor destroyed (I really do believe that for humanity to possess a quality that is fundamental, as opposed to emergent, like many believe consciousness is, it must be part of the stuff of matter itself - that of necessity every atom must have qualia as significant as that of the whole human).Were either of those two deaths the result of a drunk-driving incident? If not, might you feel different if they were?

It's just so pointless, and so preventable.

[Sonnet]

Wow, visc. :eek:

Thanks for talking about this. It's important.

I lost my first love to a drunk driver. The person to whom I lost my virginity was also the first dead body I ever saw up close; I guess I lost my death virginity to him, too.

[Roland98]

I lost an aunt and uncle who I was very close to because of a drunk driver when I was 10. First and only time I ever saw my dad cry; it was his sister, and they were only 16 months apart in age. I am very often the DD when I go out anywhere with friends.

My, er, estranged? husband (I never know how to refer to him) was arrested for DUI about 6 weeks ago. Dumbass. As he very well knows my position on drinking and driving, I let his sorry ass sit in jail overnight until his brother bailed him out.

[wildernesse]

While you might be willing to give up your life for some "liberating anarchy", why would you think that other people would make the same decision? I don't think that I could be sure that the potential victims of my choice would agree--and who am I to decide for them? I don't think that a person should have the freedom to harm others.

My aunt was hit by a drunk driver in an accident which killed him, and left her in a body cast for many months. At the time, my cousins were very small and it would have been devastating for their family to lose their mother (not that having to live with relatives so their father could take care of their mom wasn't disrupting). My aunt still has difficulty climbing steps on occasion due to her injuries, almost 30 years from that time. One of my mom's most vivid memories is of seeing her sister's car with the bloody handprint on the dash where my aunt had tried to drag herself up out of the floor. I doubt that she would have agreed to all the suffering and continued discomfort in order for someone to have the greater freedom of driving while intoxicated.

In a way, I think it's easier to say that you'd be willing to give up your life in exchange for the freedom--fewer people say that they'd be willing to experience discomfort/pain/suffering for a time or the rest of their normal lifespan in order to gain such an insignificant freedom.

[Lauri D]

While you might be willing to give up your life for some "liberating anarchy", why would you think that other people would make the same decision? I don't think that I could be sure that the potential victims of my choice would agree--and who am I to decide for them? I don't think that a person should have the freedom to harm others.

My aunt was hit by a drunk driver in an accident which killed him, and left her in a body cast for many months. At the time, my cousins were very small and it would have been devastating for their family to lose their mother (not that having to live with relatives so their father could take care of their mom wasn't disrupting). My aunt still has difficulty climbing steps on occasion due to her injuries, almost 30 years from that time. One of my mom's most vivid memories is of seeing her sister's car with the bloody handprint on the dash where my aunt had tried to drag herself up out of the floor. I doubt that she would have agreed to all the suffering and continued discomfort in order for someone to have the greater freedom of driving while intoxicated.

In a way, I think it's easier to say that you'd be willing to give up your life in exchange for the freedom--fewer people say that they'd be willing to experience discomfort/pain/suffering for a time or the rest of their normal lifespan in order to gain such an insignificant freedom.
And thereby it seems that the entire thrust of Farren's post has been lost on you.

[pescifish]

And thereby it seems that the entire thrust of Farren's post has been lost on you.
I can't really comment on whether Farren's post has an entire thrust at all, or whether anyone 'got it'. I'm sure I probably didn't, though I might argue whether making a choice to drive drunk is or isn't malicious or malignant (whatever this word might mean in this context). I do think there's a difference between random "Act of God" and a perfectly cognizant human being making a choice to ignore probable consequences of his/her actions. I don't believe freedom eliminates a need for responsibility.

However, I digress...

I think wildy makes one point I think is valid relative to one of Farren's:In a way, I think it's easier to say that you'd be willing to give up your life in exchange for the freedom--fewer people say that they'd be willing to experience discomfort/pain/suffering for a time or the rest of their normal lifespan in order to gain such an insignificant freedom.
Farren says he's willing to give up his life to allow a broader freedom for all: What I'm saying is I'm willing to die for a little more liberating anarchy in the world. Death is no great event ...
But he doesn't say "I'm willing to live the rest of my long, long life a quadraplegic," for example.

I don't believe death is the ultimate horror and sacrifice. For me death would be an easy thing to offer up compared to a long agonizing existence, probably even more so if was a conscious act of irresponsibility that caused it.

[livius drusus]

Even though I have not driven drunk, stoned or otherwise mentally impaired in a few years, there's a part of me that says "such is life", though, and feels that we try to hard to ascribe negative moral judgement on what are ultimately failings and weaknesses rather than malicious intentions. In fact, we often ascribe worse moral value to such acts than deliberate malignancy.

I agree with you on this in theory, Farren, but I suspect that if someone I loved were killed by a drunk driver, I would find it almost impossible to avoid making a negative moral judgement.

I can't help feeling, however, that our continued attempts to eliminate such behaviour with consciencious and well-considered (seeming) laws suck the raw marrow out of life and somehow we trade joie de vive for safety and security.

This is a different matter, however. I can't see how laws against drunk driving suck the marrow out of life anymore than requiring a license to operate a motor vehicle does.

[Farren]

Bear in mind I was offering not a thesis, but a sense, a feeling, a gut reaction. As things are, I support drunk driving laws because I'm certain they reduce the number of needless deaths on the road.

But I must admit I'm disturbed by the human desire for vengeance and the hatred and vilification that comes with that. Yes, such deaths are pointless and avoidable and are the result of a negligence and self-indulgence. I still find it surprising that such hatred is the result of love, such as love for the person who died. I also feel that if the many of the underpinnings of our culture were different we could do with much less harsh laws than the ones common in many countries today. It is my lack of belief that those underpinnings will change that leads me to support the current status quo.

Bear with me and I'll try to explain. Some of these tales are tangentially related but there is a common theme I don't know how else to express.

I have a (white) friend who was gang raped by 5 black men. I was actually dating her at the time and it was the source of some guilt to me for a while that I broke up with her because she began avoiding all physical contact (she only told me a year after we'd broken up). Her family became instant racists, but her take was that the event was only a trigger to expose their thinly veiled racism.

In her attempts to heal herself, she did three things. The first was to take a position in a poor, crime-ridden black community teaching children art, as a foil to her families constant poisonous commentary. The second was to actually go and visit one of the guys who they managed to arrest and forgive him (he apologised). The third was to (after a few years) come clean with everyone close to her. Once again, her family had, by their own behavious, convinced her initially that discretion was better. But she realised keeping such a terrible secret set her apart more than being frank about it, because many of us couldn't understand her suddenly change reaction to ribald humour and physical contact (which astonishingly, she appears to be completely over today).

Another chap I met but didn't know well was disabled. I met him through a friend who was standing chatting to someone near a snacks and drinks table the entire night. He was sitting on the other side of the table and kept asking her "can you pass me this" or "can you pass me that" even though it was just out of reach and eventually she said "Are you crippled or something" at which point he wheeled out his chair from behind the table and said "yes" with a big grin.

Anyhow, he was a really nice guy. He had a huge sense of humour and his disability was simply not an issue. He was paralysed after being hit by a drunk driver, but had completely, 100% forgiven the guy. One of the reasons he gave was that he himself had done stupid things before that might have endangered people but by luck of the dice was not the one who had actually ended up changing someones life for the worse by his stupidity.

I have encountered contrary examples to these examples of generosity of spirit and a willingness to put the past behind you. My recent former business partner, a handsome greek chap, was living in a commune with me many, many years ago. We were quite a debauched lot and one night, when the only other car in the commune was in for repairs, he and everyone else begged to take my car to go out for a night on the town. It was in such bad condition that I had decided not to drive it until I got my next paycheck and I was getting lifts to work.

Eventually I relented, with stern warnings that it was decidely unstable and required extremely careful driving. I also refused to go with them. Not an hour later I got a call from the local hospital where they all were. The car had suddenly started swerving uncontrollably. Someone had shouted to my girlfriend, who was driving (and was in fact he only one who was dead sobre) not to brake but to accelerate but in a panic she braked and the car hit the highway divider, flipped over and landed just inside of the yellow line on the other side of the highway. My former business partner and another girl were thrown out of the back window.

Now all they got were three days in hospital and some scars. Enough for a little character but not enough to even make them less attractive. Nonetheless he was bitter about it and blamed my ex. Several years on (six or seven) I reconnected with him. One night we were talking about old times and he expressed surprising continued bitterness and anger towards my girlfriend for his by now barely visible scars. It made me very angry. I told him he was petty, vain and profoundly stupid if he thought that she was somehow to blame for a major mechanical failure when I had carefully explained to him and others that had begged me to use the car the dangers thereof.

Similarly, I lived with a blind writer, who, while a fascinating person (he wrote several books with a special recorder/editor given to him by the Foundation for the Blind), was in an almost permanent state of rage at the sighted. Any slip, such as me once saying "have you seen that program... oh, shit, of course not, sorry" was an excuse for invective and venom. Three months in a commune with him and I was out. I never found out how he became blind (I knew by inference from some of his comments it wasn't congenital) because I just never wanted to go any where near the topic.

Now I have plenty of sympathy for someone who is presently suffering and needs to express that. Such expression is not the subject of my post. Its the constant wailing and gnashing of teeth about an event in the past and the desire for vengeance that often accompanies it that I think is poison in a persons consciousness. I can understand it as a normal human reaction and I appreciate the need for time to heal but I believe, when we are equipped with the proper mental apparatus, we can learn to detach ourselves, heal faster and get rid of that poison.

When I hold up the former two tales and similar examples against the latter two and other examples and ask myself "Who would I like to be if fortune, negligence or malice" left me in a condition of permanent disability or scarred in some way, I would immensely prefer the former. In fact, it is as the result of having thought long and deeply about these things that I have an attitude to almost everything of "Oh well, ce la vie".

When my brother borrowed my car without tell me and crashed it, I just got it fixed and assured him he didn't have to be so apologetic. Similarly, when my ex wrote off the car that fateful night (I got R96 for it after towing and highway fixing fees came off the scrap value) she kept saying "I know you told us" and I kept saying "Who cares? Its over and you're all alive. Frankly I don't give a rat's ass".

If I was the victim of a drunk driver or a criminal who left me in a critical condition, I would forgive them and move on, permanent disability or not. I'm not just speculating, I know this with a deep and absolute certainty, because of the many years of training myself with all the less severe incidents. It is a fundamental underpinning of my entire moral being to detach and move on from things that can't be changed that has served me well and afforded me a great deal of happiness. Similarly, I have seen the very positive effect of similar sentiments in people who have suffered greatly and adopted the same attitude.

It was in this light that my earlier comments were made. A good part of our laws and other machinations for controlling and regulating the conduct of other human beings come from the offense caused to our sense of justice when someone irreperably alters or removes the life of another, without their choice.

But that affront is caused, as Wildernesse indicates, by the natural rage many feel when they or their loved ones are the victims of such actions. If there were less rage and more fatalism - if the vast majority, for instance, sincerely believed the Buddhist position that life is human life and ego is a transitory state of matter that is inherently conscious - that like a wave rising from an dropping into the sea it is simply a illusion that consciousness clings to for a while but is never really seperate from the ocean - our sense of what is just and necessary might be entirely different.

In my earlier post I stated I would be willing to sacrifice a degree of my own safety in order that we all may experience a little more "liberating anarchy", whether that entails good or bad choices. In doing so, I wasn't implying that everyone should be willing to similarly sacrifice a little assurance of safety. It was simply an expression of my own willingness. I fully acknowledge that I am indivisibly interconnected to an entire society and beyond that even to a global ecosystem. The choices and desires of my fellow human beings must obviously factor hugely in my moral reasoning.

For this reason I fully agree with laws such as drunken driving laws, but I can't deny the desire, however unlikely such a scenario is, to see a world where there is more latitude for the Bachannalian and the wild and more serene acceptance of tragedy and misfortune.

[livius drusus]

I'm still a little puzzled over your posts in this thread, Farren. Neither the OP nor any follow-ups have called for vengeance or even law enforcement of any kind, but have in fact been entirely sympathetic to the perpetrator/OP.

I understand that you're musing, exploring your reactions wherever they may lead, but when you say that you're "disturbed by the human desire for vengeance and the hatred and vilification that comes with that", to whom do you refer? Do you mean society at large or something that was said here in this thread?

On another note, I read an interesting Natl Geographic article about human lust for retribution that might be up your alley. I'll start another thread about it. :)

[Farren]

I'm still a little puzzled over your posts in this thread, Farren. Neither the OP nor any follow-ups have called for vengeance or even law enforcement of any kind, but have in fact been entirely sympathetic to the perpetrator/OP.

I understand that you're musing, exploring your reactions wherever they may lead, but when you say that you're "disturbed by the human desire for vengeance and the hatred and vilification that comes with that", to whom do you refer? Do you mean society at large or something that was said here in this thread?

On another note, I read an interesting Natl Geographic article about human lust for retribution that might be up your alley. I'll start another thread about it. :)

I suppose I am just musing. Well, I started out musing and subsequently felt the need to carefully qualify what I'd said that ended up a rather long essay, in light of a subsequent post by Wildy.

When I talk about vengeance its more about society at large. I've worked with someone who lost her child to a drunk driver (a client that did volunteer administration for the Drive Alive campaign over here) and she was such a nice woman, but she had some terrible, terrible things to say about drunk drivers, like they are the worst form of pond scum imaginable. Worse than wife-beaters rapists and deliberate murderers, was the impression I got.

[viscousmemories]

Wow. I'm actually really suprised at the number of you who've lost someone to a drunk driving accident :(. I can't tell you how relieved I am that I don't bear any direct responsibility (that I'm aware of) for any such thing. FWIW I understand the anger and hostility as well as the illegality of driving under the influence, but I do share a degree of Farren's distress over having what at times feels like an overly cautious society. But then I'm a big Hunter S. Thompson fan too, so maybe that's why. :)

I agree too that it can be very disturbing to listen to people go on about drunk drivers as though they are worse than child rapists. I never drove drunk with the intention of doing anyone harm, and of course I would be horrified if I ever did, despite there having been times (as I said) when I was literally "feeling no pain" as a result of excessive consumption. As I alluded to in my OP, I often wonder if people aren't maimed or killed in accidents caused by careless sober drivers who are distracted by food, the phone, dealing with kids in the back seat, etc as often as by drunk drivers. I suspect it must happen a lot, but I doubt there's any statistical evidence since each incident would be treated as somewhat unique.

I read an article in Car and Driver about 10 years ago that suggested that the number of accidents that result from drunk driving is actually exagerrated by the recording methods. For example, they said that if a car (A) ran a red light and broadsided a car legally driving through a green light (B), and the driver of car (B) had been drinking, it would be recorded as an alcohol-related incident. I sometimes wonder if it's a combination of that kind of statistical embellishment and groups like M.A.D.D. that demonize drunk drivers that gets people more angry at people who drink and drive than at people who are otherwise careless or reckless.

I was once a passenger in the back seat of a mini-van with a baby in a car seat in the front passenger side and the baby's mother driving. The baby's mother was doing whatever it is women do with babies... adjusting its diaper, wiping its nose, whatever and every time she did so she would be turned to face the baby, looking at the baby, and the whole minivan would be turning with her. To the point where we were nearly half on the shoulder at times. And I'm talking about Highway 1 going from Santa Cruz to San Jose. In other words: winding mountain road. I was terrified that we were all going to die, but I didn't think she was a deliberate menace to society. I thought she was careless. Had we been in an accident I suspect nobody would've demonized her - they would've chalked it up to really bad luck because hey, everyone is careless from time to time.

Hmm... y'know, all roads lately seem to lead me back to the fundamental attribution error (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error). There are always a multitude of factors that go into any person's behavior at any given time, and I don't think it's reasonable to assume anything about someone's character based on how they behave in a particular circumstance. Which is to say that I simply can't believe that everyone who drives drunk is evil, and so can't support any characterization of them as such. And I'll note too that I don't think anyone in this thread has done so. I suspect Farren was reacting not so much to the comments made here as to the direction these discussions traditionally take. But I can't speak for Farren, so take that for what it's worth.

Anyway I've already made it clear in my OP (I hope) that I think driving drunk is immoral, not something I'm proud of and something I hope to never do again. Still, I agree with Farren that people who do so don't deserve to be demonized. So I wholeheartedly support condemning and punishing the behavior, sure. Verbally and legally. But I personally stop short of demonizing the perpetrators.

Thanks again for all your comments everyone.

[livius drusus]

I started a new thread on revenge, if Farren or anyone's up for it: Sweet Revenge and Social Cohesion (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5446#post5446). :)