Raw Chicken and Bacteria

[viscousmemories]

When I worked at Zingerman's we were required to take a food safety course, during which I learned all sorts of scary things about raw chicken. I learned more scary things from the excellent book Fast Food Nation, and I learned even more scary things when I researched C. Jejuni after the week of living hell in Hamburg, Germany that followed my being exposed to it.

Yeah so now I'm really, really paranoid about raw chicken. I wash my hands after I take the frozen chicken out of the freezer, again after I clean the chicken, again after I put it in the pan, I'm paranoid about everything I touch (spice jars, etc.) between touching the chicken and washing my hands, etc.

Then I see my brother take raw chicken out of the package, throw it in a pan, then grab the lettuce and start making a salad! :eek:

Now I ask you: Which of us is insane? Both?

[Roland98]

I'd say you both are. :)

This goes back to the "too clean" conversation we had earlier. Yes, chicken can have some nasty germs. Yes, it's recommended you deal with the chicken, then wash your hands after you touch it. But I wouldn't freak out or anything.

My grandma used to be the same way as your brother, btw. Made me a little nervous after I came home from college and my micro courses to watch her make ground beef patties, then (without washing her hands) peel the potatoes, or touch dishes, or something. Yet I'm sure she did this while I was growing up and eating there, and we never got sick. She did change her ways (a bit) when she ended up almost shutting her kidneys down due to E. coli food poisoning. So yeah, I'd recommend washing but don't be too paranoid.

[viscousmemories]

I'd say you both are. :)

This goes back to the "too clean" conversation we had earlier. Yes, chicken can have some nasty germs. Yes, it's recommended you deal with the chicken, then wash your hands after you touch it. But I wouldn't freak out or anything.
So like if I handle chicken, then handle the pepper shaker, should I scrub the pepper shaker? Or is that too paranoid?

[pescifish]

I wipe off the pepper shaker in that case. :blush:

But, I agree with Roland, both scenarios in the OP are a bit insane.

I'm like you, vm, when it comes to the chicken. I keep a mental note of the finger touching trail, avoiding it when possible and wiping off afterwards. I doubt I need to be that careful and I probably wouldn't be bothered much if stuff got onto other food that gets cooked later. But... the lettuce for a salad? That's just askin' for it, I think!

I think, in my case, a lot of my food health habits are done not for my benefit but for my parrot. She eats the same food I do and I chop up her breakfast every morning in the same kitchen I cook that chicken. Her little birdie constitution can't fight off nasty Sam and Ella as well as mine can.

[viscousmemories]

I wipe off the pepper shaker in that case. :blush:
Aha! See that's the important part I left out of my OP. It's not so much that I wonder if I'm being too cautious, but I wonder if what I'm doing makes any sense. I mean, supposedly in order to kill the bacteria in chicken you have to cook it until it reaches an internal temperature of 180 degrees. Fine. So how is running my hands under water or wiping the pepper shaker with a towel sufficient? Is it? Do I need to use soap or bleach on my hands or the shaker?

But, I agree with Roland, both scenarios in the OP are a bit insane.
:P

I'm like you, vm, when it comes to the chicken. I keep a mental note of the finger touching trail, avoiding it when possible and wiping off afterwards. I doubt I need to be that careful and I probably wouldn't be bothered much if stuff got onto other food that gets cooked later. But... the lettuce for a salad? That's just askin' for it, I think!
Yeah, see? Me too. And believe me, I know what "it" is. Imagine someone punching you in the stomach, hard. Then having to shit every hour on the hour, even days after the last thing you ate. Fever, sweats, still feeling like you're being punched in the stomach constantly... god that sucked. :(

I think, in my case, a lot of my food health habits are done not for my benefit but for my parrot. She eats the same food I do and I chop up her breakfast every morning in the same kitchen I cook that chicken. Her little birdie constitution can't fight off nasty Sam and Ella as well as mine can.
Huh, interesting. I never really thought about that but it makes sense. I'll keep it in mind if I ever get a pet. I tend to think of non-human animals as having iron stomachs.

[LadyShea]

Huh, interesting. I never really thought about that but it makes sense. I'll keep it in mind if I ever get a pet. I tend to think of non-human animals as having iron stomachs

I have seen dogs and cats eat stuff from the garbage that would kill us in no time (like three day old steak fat and bones), but are poisoned by something we can tolerate, like chocolate. It's weird.

[Sonnet]

Well, we kill chickens. It's only fair if a few of them kill a few of us. :yup: Turnabout's fair play.

[godfry n. glad]

Aha! See that's the important part I left out of my OP. It's not so much that I wonder if I'm being too cautious, but I wonder if what I'm doing makes any sense. I mean, supposedly in order to kill the bacteria in chicken you have to cook it until it reaches an internal temperature of 180 degrees. Fine. So how is running my hands under water or wiping the pepper shaker with a towel sufficient? Is it? Do I need to use soap or bleach on my hands or the shaker?


Thanks, vm... This is my question exactly. What good does it do to just rinse one's hands in cool/cold water? Doesn't one need to soap up, or bleach, to kill the bacteria?

I can't see that "wiping" anything would help at all...except to spread the bacteria to a cloth or towel that can then spread the bacteria to whatever surfaces they touch. Wipe the pepper shaker with the kitchen towel, which is then hung up on the refrigerator door, to be used to wipe dry one's hands/face later....false security.

Let's not even talk about all the nasties on the phone handset.

godfry

[freemonkey]

I remember hearing that these once germs have been exposed to the air for awhile, on dry objects like plates, countertops, towels, sponges, etc., they die. Rather, once the inviting moist habitat dries up, so do the germs. Is this true?

[Roland98]

I remember hearing that these once germs have been exposed to the air for awhile, on dry objects like plates, countertops, towels, sponges, etc., they die. Rather, once the inviting moist habitat dries up, so do the germs. Is this true?

Most of them will die. A few are pretty hardy and can live hours to days. The worst ones form spores and can live basically indefinitely, but those (generally) aren't your food poisoning bugs.

As far as washing your hands--I think you're all forgetting what some simple flow and friction can do. Even rubbing your hands together vigorously under some water (sans soap) for about 30 seconds will be enough to get off most bacteria. It's not as if they immediately burrow under your skin or anything. The flow of water over your hands, and the friction of rubbing them together (which will also take some skin cells to which the bacteria adhere down the drain as well) works wonders. Really, it's better to do this than to do a quickie soap up with an antibacterial soap.

You'd think microbiologists would know this, too. Kind of funny--they did a study at an ASM (American Society for Microbiology) convention, putting spies in bathrooms and watching how well people washed their hands. 30 seconds is recommended. Something like 85% of people at the microbiology conference did it for less than 10 seconds. I think around 3% didn't wash their hands at all! :eek: (Note, they had plants in the men's restrooms only, not sure why).

[Roland98]

I can't see that "wiping" anything would help at all...except to spread the bacteria to a cloth or towel that can then spread the bacteria to whatever surfaces they touch. Wipe the pepper shaker with the kitchen towel, which is then hung up on the refrigerator door, to be used to wipe dry one's hands/face later....false security.

Again, friction + water will remove most of the bacteria from fomites (any objects). So you don't necessarily have to kill them; just get them the heck off of the pepper shaker before you use it again. But no, I wouldn't use an actual kitchen towel to wipe anything up, as often they are put in nice warm, damp places and don't dry well, meaning bacteria can breed. I stick to paper towels in the kitchen and just pitch them.

Let's not even talk about all the nasties on the phone handset.


Again, most of these are short-lived. But if you're sharing a phone with someone with a cold or something, might want to have one of those Clorox clean-up towelettes or something handy.

[viscousmemories]

Most of them will die. A few are pretty hardy and can live hours to days. The worst ones form spores and can live basically indefinitely, but those (generally) aren't your food poisoning bugs.
I'm only familiar with e. coli, salmonella and c. jejuni. Are they hardy? Are there any other common foodborne pathogens?

As far as washing your hands--I think you're all forgetting what some simple flow and friction can do. Even rubbing your hands together vigorously under some water for about 30 seconds will be enough to get off most bacteria. It's not as if they immediately burrow under your skin or anything. The flow of water over your hands, and the friction of rubbing them together (which will also take some skin cells to which the bacteria adhere down the drain as well) works wonders. Really, it's better to do this than to do a quickie soap up with an antibacterial soap.
Aha! See, I did not know that. I thought the germs did hang on tight, and that anti-bacterial soap might be the only way to get rid of 'em. Okay so riddle me this, science-girl: Why do we use soap at all?

You'd think microbiologists would know this, too. Kind of funny--they did a study at an ASM (American Society for Microbiology) convention, putting spies in bathrooms and watching how well people washed their hands. 30 seconds is recommended. Something like 85% of people at the microbiology conference did it for less than 10 seconds. I think around 3% didn't wash their hands at all! :eek: (Note, they had plants in the men's restrooms only, not sure why).
Okay wait a minute, now you've lost me. Didn't you just say above that it isn't important to wash your hands thoroughly and with soap? Or are you saying that 30 seconds of vigorous rubbing under running water is as good (or better) than a quick wash with or without soap? Or...?

[Roland98]

I'm only familiar with e. coli, salmonella and c. jejuni. Are they hardy? Are there any other common foodborne pathogens?

Those are all moderately hardy. Really, it depends on the strain.

There are a bunch of others as well. Listeria monocytogenes is a fairly hardy and nasty one, as it can actually grow at 4 degrees Celsius (the temp in a fridge). And it's pretty heat-resistant. Really nasty for pregnant women, as it can cause spontaneous abortion or fetal death. This is why they recommend that pregnant women stay away from hot dogs and cold cuts--Listeria can grow pretty well on these in the fridge.

Yersinia pseudotuberculosis and one other Yersinia species (that I can't think of the name of right now) are also fairly common food poisoning bugs. These are cousins of the bacterium that causes plague, and can also be fairly serious but are pretty fragile.

Of course, Clostridium botulinum is one of the worst ones, symptom-wise. This is a spore-former and normally a soil bacterium. When it gets in food, it can release a neurotoxin that, when ingested, paralyzes your diaphragm and basically suffocates you (and does other things as well, but that's generally how you die from botulism).

Staphylococcus aureus and Streptococcus pyogenes have also been implicated in food-borne outbreaks, though they're rarer than the ones listed above. Both are somewhat hardy, generally depending on the amount of capsule they have (a sticky coating on the outside of the bacterium that prevents dessication).

Klebsiella pneumoniae is a relative of E. coli, and can also cause food poisoning.

I'm sure there are others, but those are the main ones that come to mind at the moment.

Aha! See, I did not know that. I thought the germs did hang on tight, and that anti-bacterial soap might be the only way to get rid of 'em. Okay so riddle me this, science-girl: Why do we use soap at all?

Well, 1) it does kill some of them, and 2) we use it for more than simply getting off bacteria, of course. Water is not as effective at getting many stains off our hands. Soap was in use well before we knew about germs.

Okay wait a minute, now you've lost me. Didn't you just say above that it isn't important to wash your hands thoroughly and with soap? Or are you saying that 30 seconds of vigorous rubbing under running water is as good (or better) than a quick wash with or without soap? Or...?

The latter. Soap + water for 30 seconds is best, but water without soap for 30 seconds is better than water + soap for 5-10 seconds. Really, it's all about the friction and flushing action. Ever watched doctors (especially surgeons) wash their hands? It ain't no quickie once-over under the water.

[viscousmemories]

Those are all moderately hardy. Really, it depends on the strain.

There are a bunch of others as well. Listeria monocytogenes is a fairly hardy and nasty one, as it can actually grow at 4 degrees Celsius (the temp in a fridge). And it's pretty heat-resistant. Really nasty for pregnant women, as it can cause spontaneous abortion or fetal death. This is why they recommend that pregnant women stay away from hot dogs and cold cuts--Listeria can grow pretty well on these in the fridge.
:eek: Hey that brings up a good point, actually. Does freezing kill most or any of these bugs? I buy chicken breasts in bulk, then baggie and freeze them individually.

Of course, Clostridium botulinum is one of the worst ones, symptom-wise. This is a spore-former and normally a soil bacterium. When it gets in food, it can release a neurotoxin that, when ingested, paralyzes your diaphragm and basically suffocates you (and does other things as well, but that's generally how you die from botulism).
Botulism is what you get from dented cans or something, right? At least it seems that's what I've always been told, despite the fact that I often use tomatoes, soups and other things from dented cans without having died yet.

Well, 1) it does kill some of them, and 2) we use it for more than simply getting off bacteria, of course. Water is not as effective at getting many stains off our hands. Soap was in use well before we knew about germs.
Ah, good point. I never thought of soap as a stain remover, and I've always seriously wondered about its purpose. Hmm... gonna start a soap thread now.

The latter. Soap + water for 30 seconds is best, but water without soap for 30 seconds is better than water + soap for 5-10 seconds. Really, it's all about the friction and flushing action. Ever watched doctors (especially surgeons) wash their hands? It ain't no quickie once-over under the water.
Okay, cool. Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my stupid questions, Roland. It's really very helpful because I've been wondering some of these things for years. (And tired of being so paranoid in the kitchen).

[freemonkey]

Ah, good point. I never thought of soap as a stain remover, and I've always seriously wondered about its purpose. Hmm... gonna start a soap thread now.
Soap cuts oil.

[Roland98]

:eek: Hey that brings up a good point, actually. Does freezing kill most or any of these bugs? I buy chicken breasts in bulk, then baggie and freeze them individually.

A freeze/thaw cycle will kill some, but not in significant numbers. We freeze bacterial samples at -80 C for years and still use them. (Granted, they're frozen in glycerol to keep their cell walls intact, but still...freezing is not a good method to kill 'em).


Botulism is what you get from dented cans or something, right? At least it seems that's what I've always been told, despite the fact that I often use tomatoes, soups and other things from dented cans without having died yet.

Zat's zee one. Really, dented cans are the one thing I'm (somewhat) paranoid about. Botulism is fairly rare, but the toxin is one of the deadliest poisons per gram on the planet, and the only way you aren't going to die if you ingest enough is 1) if you can get some antitoxin damn fast, or 2) if they can hook you up to a breathing machine, assuming you get to the hospital on time (many people, of course, shake it off until it's too advanced). So not exactly something to play around with.

Botulism is also the reason they recommend infants shouldn't eat honey. As I said, it's a soil bacterium, and as such, it can be a contaminant of honey, and can grow and produce toxin in the infant's intestinal tract. Random fact of the day.


Ah, good point. I never thought of soap as a stain remover, and I've always seriously wondered about its purpose. Hmm... gonna start a soap thread now.

Freemonkey made a better point about the oil.

Okay, cool. Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my stupid questions, Roland. It's really very helpful because I've been wondering some of these things for years. (And tired of being so paranoid in the kitchen).

Happy to help.

[freemonkey]

Zat's zee one. Really, dented cans are the one thing I'm (somewhat) paranoid about.
Is botulism caused by dented cans, or is a bulging top and/or bottom a sign that its present? I have always believed the latter.

[Roland98]

Is botulism caused by dented cans, or is a bulging top and/or bottom a sign that its present? I have always believed the latter.

The bacterium can enter if the can is dented. Bulging of a closed can means bacteria were present (possibly, but not necessarily Clostridium) before sealing and have been growing. Dented cans are a "maybe," but bulging cans I'd definitely steer clear of.

[viscousmemories]

bulging cans I'd definitely steer clear of.
Yeah that seems kinda self-evident. Like pulsing steak. Just say no. :P

[godfry n. glad]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer our stupid questions, Roland. It's really very helpful because I've been wondering some of these things for years. (And tired of being so paranoid in the kitchen).

I resemble that remark!!! :yup:

godfry

(Minor edit, there, vm.)

[LadyShea]

Again, most of these are short-lived. But if you're sharing a phone with someone with a cold or something, might want to have one of those Clorox clean-up towelettes or something handy.

I am cheap, and those things are expensive. When someone in my house is sick (not as much of a problem now without various friends and family members living with us), I buy rubbing alcohol, and premoisten cotton balls and paper towels and put them in plastic Ziploc baggies and put the baggies near the phone and in the bathroom. This way the sickie can wipe down the phone, the door handle, the toilet if it's a gastrointestinal type ailment. Rubbing alcohold costs like 50c and cotton balls are cheap too.

Oh and a PSA is needed here. Apparently some nasties can live and thrive quite happily in carpet for a long time. A couple months ago, I ripped up the carpet in our living room, and must have scratched an itch or bug bite or something, and ended up with a strep infection on my leg. I had bumpy itchy red swollen hives and the pain and swelling extended into my groin area. The doctor flipped out and had no idea what it was (thought it was herpes at first!), but luckily he ordered a blood culture and it was strep. We ascertained I got it from the carpet/padding on my hands then transferred it to my skin. Not fun and I have scars. Moral: If you rip up carpet, wash your hands before scratching an itch ;)

[reprise]

I'm more than a little horrified by the number of "one use" cleaning products which have migrated from the US to here - there are disposable wipes for just about every purpose and the anti-bacterial ones worry me I can't help thinking that our obsession with eliminating germs from our environment is going to bite us on the butt.

When it's really necessary to worry about killing the little buggers, I use either cheap bleach or cheap household disinfectant. Otherwise, it's just boiling water.

[viscousmemories]

I'm more than a little horrified by the number of "one use" cleaning products which have migrated from the US to here - there are disposable wipes for just about every purpose
I started a thread about why we have so many different soaps here (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399).

and the anti-bacterial ones worry me I can't help thinking that our obsession with eliminating germs from our environment is going to bite us on the butt.
And there's a thread on that subject here (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284). :)

[Albion]

Well, having spent the last 20 years working as a copyeditor and production editor for ASM, I've read a lot more than I ever wanted to know about some of these bugs. When I cook chicken, it's really, really cooked. Same for eggs. And when I've finished ripping the giblets out of the Christmas and Thanksgiving turkey and got the turkey in the oven, the kitchen counters and sink (and my hands) get a lysol treatment. I use separate cutting boards for meat and vegetables, and things around my kitchen get washed within an inch of their lives. So if you're insane, VM, I dread to think what I am!

However, people do have different levels of susceptibility to some of these bugs (as well as some bugs having a very low infective dose), so a dose that could lay out one person may well have a minimal effect, if any, on another. After a bad bout of gastroenteritis years ago, my husband is quite susceptible to intestinal infections, so I don't take chances if possible.

BTW, another real charmer which I think didn't make the list is Bacillus cereus, which can cause any amount of gastrointestinal distress after ingestion of contaminated foods like improperly prepared rice.

I had to copyedit an entire book about Campylobacter a few years ago. Put me off chicken for months.

I don't use antibacterial soap, though; that seems to me to be one of those things that encourages resistant bacteria. I gather there are already some bacteria that are becoming resistant to disinfectants as well as antibiotics; that's all we need.