Historical Fiction, Anyone?

[livius drusus]

Is anyone else here a fan of historical fiction? When it's well-researched and engagingly written, historical fiction may well be my favorite kind of novel. A novel with a glossary makes my heart pound.

Speaking of which, Colleen McCullough's Masters of Rome series (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380710811/qid=1094408311/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-0468532-8150307?v=glance&s=books) wins the glossary prize hands down. It also happens to cover one of my favorite historical periods: the decline and fall of the Roman Republic (including the classic life and death of my namesake, Marcus Livius Drusus).

From several decades later, but still wonderfully ancient Roman, Lindsay Davis' Marcus Didius Falco Series (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/series/-/504/paperback/ref=pd_serl_books/104-0468532-8150307) of mystery novels is fantastic, both as hardboiled detective fiction and as an emotionally realistic depiction of life way back when.

Last (but certainly not least), the godfather of the ancient Rome category: Robert Graves with his I, Claudius (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067972477X/ref=pd_sim_books_4/104-0468532-8150307?v=glance&s=books) and Claudius the God (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679725733/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-0468532-8150307?v=glance&s=books). Graves is just such a good writer, and he covers the various Augustan nutters with brilliant wit and empathy.

Okay, one more and then I promise I'll stop. Ken Follet, author of spy novels I've never much liked but my mom really loves, just happens to have written the best medieval historical novel I've ever read: The Pillars of the Earth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451166892/qid=1094410756/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-0468532-8150307). Covering the 12th c. English civil wars from the death of Henry I to the murder of Thomas a Beckett, the book is a riveting glimpse into all kinds of life and history. Monastic life, fleece fairs, itinerant masons, the architecture of Gothic cathedrals, sexy, independent outlaw women, court politics, rape and pillage, priests dressed up as Saracens: it's all in there.

Anyone else a fan of the genre?

[Ronin]

I'm a big fan of Umberto Eco.

If I go into it any further...I fear that I will be lost.

~ Fraternitas Rosae Crucis

[livius drusus]

Mmm... Outstanding call, Ronin.

[LadyShea]

I thoroughly enjoyed Mary Queen of Scotland and the Isles (http://www.margaretgeorge.com/books/maryscott.asp) by Margaret George, which is more of fictionalized history I guess. She took the actual writings and known events and filled in the blanks to make an engaging story. The only drawback is she makes mary out to be some kind of unwitting victim of circumstances rather than an involved player in the events of her life...but you sympathize with her.

And, I don't know how accurate the historical part is, but The Alienist by Caleb Carr is really interesting. It takes place in 1896 New York, and the sleuth is a psychiatrist joined by an array of interesting characters including Teddy Roosevelt as the Police Commisioner. I like how forensics is a brand new and unorthodox method of detecting in the story.

[livius drusus]

I'll definitely check out the George book, Shea. I was just reading a great little non-fiction book about the writing of the King James Bible (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060959754/qid=1094414081/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0468532-8150307?v=glance&s=books) which touched upon Mary in the beginning. It's a fascinating period.

I started The Alienist when it first came out, but it never really clicked for me and I never finished it. It's odd, really, because the subject and themes are usually fascinating to me.

[freemonkey]

I do like historical fiction, my husband more so than I. Unfortunately I never know how historical these books are (and I too lazy, busy or not interested enough to find out).

I recently enjoyed A Conspiracy of Paper, by David Liss (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804119120/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/002-9560959-1354447?v=glance&s=books&st=*), and intend to read his other books soon.

I'll be watching this thread for recommendations, as we're going to Half-Price books Tuesday. Make me a list!

[LadyShea]

From several decades later, but still wonderfully ancient Roman, Lindsay Davis' Marcus Didius Falco Series of mystery novels is fantastic, both as hardboiled detective fiction and as an emotionally realistic depiction of life way back when.

Definitely on my list, now. I love the mixing of genres...sounds interesting!

[Farren]

Liv is that the same Colleen McCullough who wrote The Thorn Birds?

Robert Graves rawks. Both of the Claudius novels were excellent, as was Count Belasarius.

On a slight tangent a little poem by Spike Milligan just popped into my head:

If Robert Graves misbehaves
It's the talka Majorca

Umberto Eco is also wonderful. There's a kind of magic in his historical novels that emerges from the superstitious way his medieval characters view the world, although in Baudolino his central cast more consciously preys on the superstitions of others by manufacture of relics, IIRC.

William Golding has written a fair few brilliant historical novels too. I really enjoyed Rites of Passage about a young British nobleman on his way to take up a privileged position in Australia. The entire book is set on the boat and focuses on the interaction and transformaion of the various characters: A well-meaning (and ultimately humiliated) cleric who constantly misconstrues everything because he is clueless about people and believes everyone shares his faith and devotion. A Godless and angry captain who hates the cleric's guts. The central protagonist, an intelligent but class-conscious young man who carefully balances his pity, his passion and his need to assert his privileged position in a subtle battle with the captain. A pretty young woman who is really a con artist but is an object of devotion for many of the characters. Its great stuff.

Another great book by Golding is The Double Tongue, about a young woman who is gifted with a certain amount of inuition and finds herself conscripted into the role of a Pythian maiden prophesying at Delphi. Its a remarkably subtle piece of writing, hinting at a more cynical reality where the temple staff have a network of collaborators across the ancient world who feed them with information that helps the utterances of the Oracle seem impossibly well informed, yet at the same time he preserves much of the sense of reverence and mystery of the people of that time. It was the last novel he wrote and he died while it was still in draft but it is a flawless piece of work. Golding is an astonishing writer.

I really liked James Clavell's Shogun, Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin too. Even though each of the novels are Eurocentric, he apparently grew up in the far east and they have an authentic ring (although Shogun obviously requires a little suspension of disbelief).

Memoirs of a Geisha is another lovely book set in Japan. It was recommended to me by two people, both of whom, surprisingly enough, thought it was an authentic historic biography till after they'd read it and they bothered to read the blurb about the writer (Arthur Golden). I really enjoyed it. I picked up A Tale of Murasaki by Liza Dalby after that, which is set several centuries earlier but has a surprisingly similar feel, but found I didn't empathise as much with the characters. Nonetheless it was a good read.

One of the few fantasy novels I enjoyed recently with a traditional celtic theme was so enjoyable because, for all its fantasy trappings, it felt closer to the probable historical basis of elements in the Arthurian tale. The book is Mists of Avalon by Marian Zimmer Brady and I loved the way she quite correctly surmises that a priestess of the old religion (Morgan) would probably have been remembered as an evil woman in later Christian times whether she was or not. I also like the uniquely female perspective that I've not seen in any other telling and the rich life she breathes into the characters.

There are also some excellent alternative history novels. Bruce Sterling and William Gibson did a great steampunk novel called The Difference Engine. Set around the time that Babbage designed his "difference engine", a prototype computer, it envisions a Victorian England in which computers are developed without the benefits of elecronics and the majority of new lords and knights are distinguished scientists. Vast government computers constructed of millions of tiny gears and switches store government information and so on. It manages to feel distinctly Victorian (or is it Edwardian) while at the same time being essentially a hacker novel.

Another great one in the same genre is The Years of Rice and Salt which I think is Kim Stanley Robinson, a novel that spans something like Ten Centuries, set in a world were the black plague had a far worse effect on Europe and the Muslim's of the Middle East and China are basically the major colonizing powers. He keeps the whole novel connected by the fascinating device of re-incarnating characters, actually describing each afterlife (differently depending on the beliefs they held in the previous life), then dropping you into the next era without a clue which characters are which (although giving you clues to figure it out).

Christ I have to stop now or I'll be forcing everyone to scroll and scroll. Sorry I get carried away. But thanks for all the recommends so far!

[Ronin]

Walking around between classes reading James Clavell's Shogun got my ass so kicked in junior high school.

Just thought I'd briefly share some historical fact.

Carry on.

[Farren]

I just knew you'd have read Shogun and probably a whole lotta other Far Eastern stuff. :D

I get the sense you're like my young Kung Fu crazy friend who's more Chinese than the Chinese (he has cupboards lined with traditional herbs and has tried to teach me Chi Gung techniques repeatedly as well as forcing me to watch many old black and white Japanese and Chinese movies).

[livius drusus]

Liv is that the same Colleen McCullough who wrote The Thorn Birds?

Yessir, it is. Although you would never know it just from reading exerpts.

Robert Graves rawks. Both of the Claudius novels were excellent, as was Count Belasarius.

Oo! Haven't read CB; onto the list it goes, as do the Golding novels. I've only read Lord of the Flies (and loved it, of course). :)

One of the few fantasy novels I enjoyed recently with a traditional celtic theme was so enjoyable because, for all its fantasy trappings, it felt closer to the probable historical basis of elements in the Arthurian tale. The book is Mists of Avalon by Marian Zimmer Brady and I loved the way she quite correctly surmises that a priestess of the old religion (Morgan) would probably have been remembered as an evil woman in later Christian times whether she was or not. I also like the uniquely female perspective that I've not seen in any other telling and the rich life she breathes into the characters.

I loved that the first time I read it as well, but it didn't age well with me. I found it immensely contrived the second time around. I still love The Firebrand, Bradley's Cassandra hollerin' around Troy novel, though. It's cheesy but somehow less ponderous than Avalon, and you gotta love the classic Bradley girl power themes.

[Ronin]

The Thornbirds was great read for a certain teenager, way back when, in many more ways than one.

:cool:

:innocent:

That said, I'm suddenly thrust back to the same year I found out about Jacqueline Susann, The Valley of the Dolls and my first ever...WTF! moment reading Yargo.

Am I off-topic?

Sorry.

[pzmyers]

Oh, yeah. Masters of Rome. Read it twice all the way through, and have read a couple of the novels three times.

No one has mentioned Gore Vidal? Julian? Julian the Apostate, neglected on a freethought board? Tsk, tsk.

One that stretches the concept of historical fiction, but that this fan found intensely affecting, is The Far Arena, by Richard Ben Sapir. It's different -- the historical story is told as a set of flashbacks by a Roman gladiator, who has been frozen for over 1800 years and is thawed out in the present day. It sounds horribly cheesy, but it's much better than its improbable premise. The story is actually about loss and change, how much our current culture owes to our classical heritage, and what it would really be like to actually find "the Roman behind the door." It's not at all garish and sfnal, but instead is all about a bridge between two times and the personal tragedy of being the guy involved.

Getting away from the ancients, my second favorite historical period is the Enlightenment. Neal Stephenson is a love-him-or-hate-him kind of guy, but his System of the World trilogy has been phenomenal so far (my review of Quicksilver (http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/quicksilver/) and a related nonfiction work, The Soul Made Flesh (http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/a_comparison_of_two_books_concerning_the_romance_of_science_in_17th_century/)). The last book in the trilogy isn't out yet, which is some concern: Stephenson has a reputation for ending his books poorly, so we'll have to see how that one turns out.

[freemonkey]

No one has mentioned Gore Vidal? Julian? Julian the Apostate, neglected on a freethought board? Tsk, tsk.

I recently picked up a second-hand copy of Creation (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375727051/qid=1094441404/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-9560959-1354447), which is waiting to be read.

[Farren]

Creation is a fine read, especially for an agnostic or athiest. Vidal's historical work has less of the scattershot craziness of his more contemporary stuff like Duluth and Myra Breckinridge.

He's not the best historical author I've read, but nonetheless a good writer and Creation certainly adopts an interesting angle.

I just remembered Norman Mailer's Ancient Evenings. This definitely won't be everybody's cup of tea but I abolutely loved it. Some critics concur and some say it's among his weaker works but apparently it's one of Mailer's favorites, or is favorite.

The entire book is written with an absolute acceptance of the truth of Egyptian myth. No "in light of present knowledge we know this is what really happened" stuff. Apparently the Ancient Egyptians thought that the soul had many parts and they weren't always assembled in one place, so it starts with a young nobleman's Ba (or is it his Ka?) arising from the tomb in which he has recently been buried, being met by his dead father and beginning the journey to hook up with his Ka (or is it Ba - its a while since I read it and even the spelling of these word may be wrong) and face judgement.

During the course of the journey through the afterlife, he tells his father stories of the life that preceded his death. Then the father tells the son stories of his own life, the life of his father and the life of his grandfather. In the course of telling his grandfather's tale, he recounts a tale told by his grandfather of an even earlier time.

So even though each local part of the novel moves forward, the entire narrative slowly regresses backwards through five generations and is rich with both the real and fictional history of Egypt from the dramatised perspective of those close to the reigns of power. Its positively radioactive with majesty and makes you feel as (I presume) the nobility of Egypt felt. That they were walking among the Gods on a daily basis, one step from divine themselves.

[livius drusus]

Oh, yeah. Masters of Rome. Read it twice all the way through, and have read a couple of the novels three times.

My stats are similar, except for some bizarre reason (the gigantic hardcoverness might have something to do with it, as well as the desire to start all over again), I have yet to open The October Horse. How ridiculously stupid is that?

No one has mentioned Gore Vidal? Julian? Julian the Apostate, neglected on a freethought board? Tsk, tsk.

Huge gobs of shame on me. I love Julian dearly; it was a pivotal book in my political awakening and a truly outstanding example of the epistolary form.

One that stretches the concept of historical fiction, but that this fan found intensely affecting, is The Far Arena, by Richard Ben Sapir. It's different -- the historical story is told as a set of flashbacks by a Roman gladiator, who has been frozen for over 1800 years and is thawed out in the present day. It sounds horribly cheesy, but it's much better than its improbable premise. The story is actually about loss and change, how much our current culture owes to our classical heritage, and what it would really be like to actually find "the Roman behind the door." It's not at all garish and sfnal, but instead is all about a bridge between two times and the personal tragedy of being the guy involved.

I think that sounds brilliant. It's definitely on my list now.

[livius drusus]

The Thornbirds was great read for a certain teenager, way back when, in many more ways than one.


It was all about Richard Chamberlain as Padre Ralph right around my romp through puberty. I didn't actually read the book until long after I had squealed and whooped with my girlfriends over the white, three-piece suit on the beach scene.

Mmm.... three-piece suit on the beach scene...

[livius drusus]

I just remembered Norman Mailer's Ancient Evenings. This definitely won't be everybody's cup of tea but I abolutely loved it. Some critics concur and some say it's among his weaker works but apparently it's one of Mailer's favorites, or is favorite.

From your description of it, it sounds like something I would well and truly adore. Another one for the ever burgeoning list. :yup:

[Ronin]

I just knew you'd have read Shogun and probably a whole lotta other Far Eastern stuff. :D

Well, I blame George Harrison and John for that.

:yup:

The dang thickness of the book is what brought about my demise in those days. The remedy? Comic books. Specifically? Bernie Wrightson.

Did I vastly limit my social circle? Well, of course, survival is a funny thing.

I get the sense you're like my young Kung Fu crazy friend who's more Chinese than the Chinese (he has cupboards lined with traditional herbs and has tried to teach me Chi Gung techniques repeatedly as well as forcing me to watch many old black and white Japanese and Chinese movies).

Akira who?

:wink:

[Ymir's blood]

"Is anyone else here a fan of historical fiction?"

Does the Bible count? :D


I've read several of Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe novels as well as some of CS Foresters' Horatio Hornblower books. Being action/adventure, they really aren't all that different from most of the science fiction I've read, just set backwards in time rather than forwards.

[livius drusus]

I had forgotten about the Hornblower novels. I really enjoyed them and I didn't expect to, for some reason.

[Adora]

Depends on what you define as "Historical Fiction".

Do you mean "old books" or do you mean "contemporary works written about a previous era"? Because one of my current pet-hates are these bullshit "Historical Females" fictions about Mary fucking Magdelene or Rebekha or fucking Noah's 3rd cousin twice-removed's fucking sister.

*ahem* Sorry, just a bit passionate about it all.

[Godless Dave]

I love Bernard Cornwell's Richard Sharpe series, and also his "Warlord Chronicles": The Winter King, Enemy of God, and Excalibur. The latter series is as "historical" as you can be about a time and place about which we know very little and where the main characters are just shadows of old legends. At the end of each novel is a cool little historical note about the events portrayed in the book.

I had high hopes for his 100 Years War series, starting with "The Archer's Tale". Unfortunately he's starting to get repetitive. "The Archer's Tale" was OK but the sequel "Vagabond" was pretty weak, and he used the phrase "they could not miss" (referring to archers shooting at short range) at least four times. In the Sharpe series he at least restricted himself to "could not miss" only once per book.
I also really, really love "The Count of Monte Cristo" by Alexandre Dumas, but it's not technically historical since most of the novel is set during Dumas's day.

[livius drusus]

Depends on what you define as "Historical Fiction".

Do you mean "old books" or do you mean "contemporary works written about a previous era"? Because one of my current pet-hates are these bullshit "Historical Females" fictions about Mary fucking Magdelene or Rebekha or fucking Noah's 3rd cousin twice-removed's fucking sister.

*ahem* Sorry, just a bit passionate about it all.

Erm... Well... I meant contemporary works written about a previous era - just in case all that ancient Roman shit hadn't made it clear - but now I feel all inferior and self-hating about it.

Still, if you're being specific with your passionate hatred, I agree that proto-feminist interpretations of various Biblical nonentity women are ennervating.

[freemonkey]

Erm... Well... I meant contemporary works written about a previous era - just in case all that ancient Roman shit hadn't made it clear - but now I feel all inferior and self-hating about it.

You?!! Don't! (please)

[livius drusus]

Erm... Well... I meant contemporary works written about a previous era - just in case all that ancient Roman shit hadn't made it clear - but now I feel all inferior and self-hating about it.

You?!! Don't! (please)

Naw, I don't really. I loves me my good historical fiction nomatter what Miss Culturally Relevant Metaphor thinks. :wink:

[freemonkey]

Erm... Well... I meant contemporary works written about a previous era - just in case all that ancient Roman shit hadn't made it clear - but now I feel all inferior and self-hating about it.

You?!! Don't! (please)

Naw, I don't really. I loves me my good historical fiction nomatter what Miss Culturally Relevant Metaphor thinks. :wink:

Oh, good. I'm glad you started this here thread. I've made me a nice little list of titles, plus one or two others (including Restoration (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140244883/qid=1094573294/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/002-9560959-1354447?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Rose Tremain.... I've been wanting to read that for some time), and then we're off to the bookstore!

[livius drusus]

Oh cool! I liked the movie, but I've never attempted the book. Another one for the list. :)

[godfry n. glad]

I'll second the recommendations on Gore Vidal's Creation. It's an engaging read with some thought provoking speculations. For those with more of an American history bent, his Burr is well worth the read, as well.

I also enjoyed James Michener's The Source.

Morgan Llywelyn's Lion of Ireland was an enjoyable read about Brian Boru, but from what I can ascertain, she tends to run into the fanciful magical stuff that bleeds into legend and mythology, rather than stick to just historical materials.

Other writers I've found worthwhile in getting a feel for the periods are Steven Saylor's "Gordianus the Finder" series and Ellis Peter's "Brother Cadfael" series of mysteries set in historical milieus.

godfry

[Albion]

I like the Sharon Kay Penman books; the Sunne in Splendour was a really interesting piece of revisionism about Richard III, and her books about the English-Welsh border wars in the time of Edward I actually made sense of that period, which history lessons hadn't managed to do.

I really like Arthurian novels; the Jack Whyte series about Arthur's ancestors and his youth are also interestingly different. Must say I found Bernard Cornwell's Arthurian series a bit bloodthirsty - just goes to show that religious extremism is ugly regardless of the religion.

[Godless Dave]

Must say I found Bernard Cornwell's Arthurian series a bit bloodthirsty - just goes to show that religious extremism is ugly regardless of the religion.
I thought they captured the spirit of the times. They didn't call it the dark ages for nothin'. No chivalry and little sense of honor; just the strong and ruthless taking what they wanted from the weak and defenseless.

[godfry n. glad]

Depends on what you define as "Historical Fiction".

Do you mean "old books" or do you mean "contemporary works written about a previous era"? Because one of my current pet-hates are these bullshit "Historical Females" fictions about Mary fucking Magdelene or Rebekha or fucking Noah's 3rd cousin twice-removed's fucking sister.

*ahem* Sorry, just a bit passionate about it all.

You mean like Anita Diamont's The Red Tent? That kind of thing?

[godfry n. glad]

I like the Sharon Kay Penman books; the Sunne in Splendour was a really interesting piece of revisionism about Richard III, and her books about the English-Welsh border wars in the time of Edward I actually made sense of that period, which history lessons hadn't managed to do.

I noticed that a lot of her work is focused around Henry II and his progeny, a period that interests me in terms of the development of legal history. Have you read the series on Matilda and Stephen and how Henry II came to power? That's part of the puzzle that I'm not clear on... Is it a good treatment? If so, I shall have to add some fiction to my pile....

godfry

[pzmyers]

To stretch the definition of "historical fiction" a wee bit more: George MacDonald Fraser. The Flashman books. Imperial British cads are such fun.

[Penni]

Oh, how stressful, my list of books to read has gotten so long I'll never catch up!

I'm afraid I'll take away more than I'll add to this thread, but I'll just mention one, kinda fun little book. It's called The Athenian Murders (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0374106770/qid=1094583857/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-2464045-3532065) by Jose Carlos Somoza. It's really a fun and mind-bending read that involves lots of philosophers and some philosophy (in a very entertaining way) and presents ancient Greek life in a way I'd never seen it. It's really interesting to see how he portrays the idea about Greeks being open with sexuality or the Eleusinian Mysteries, which was a huge religion back then. Still, its less about history than interesting philosophical questions.

[Ymir's blood]

I love Bernard Cornwell's Richard Sharpe series, and also his "Warlord Chronicles": The Winter King, Enemy of God, and Excalibur. The latter series is as "historical" as you can be about a time and place about which we know very little and where the main characters are just shadows of old legends. At the end of each novel is a cool little historical note about the events portrayed in the book.
The Warlord Chronicles are the Arthurian ones? I've thought about picking them up from time to time. Are they set in post Roman times or the more usual generic medieval period, like Le Morte d'Arthur?

Isn't there an American Civil War series as well? I'm really interested in that war and the century it was in.



I also really, really love "The Count of Monte Cristo" by Alexandre Dumas, but it's not technically historical since most of the novel is set during Dumas's day.
The Three Musketeers is quite good. Milady de Winter was one of the most chilling villains of any book I've read.

[Albion]

I like the Sharon Kay Penman books; the Sunne in Splendour was a really interesting piece of revisionism about Richard III, and her books about the English-Welsh border wars in the time of Edward I actually made sense of that period, which history lessons hadn't managed to do.

I noticed that a lot of her work is focused around Henry II and his progeny, a period that interests me in terms of the development of legal history. Have you read the series on Matilda and Stephen and how Henry II came to power? That's part of the puzzle that I'm not clear on... Is it a good treatment? If so, I shall have to add some fiction to my pile....

godfry

From what I've read about the history of the period, I thought it was good, although it's several years since I read it. I think her research is pretty thorough, but she isn't above pushing her own interpretations (such as the pro-Richard slant of The Sunne in Splendour). I was amused by one small touch in her book about Stephen and Matilda, when she mentioned a monk in Shrewsbury who was well known as a healer - I've often wondered whether that was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek reference to Brother Cadfael from the Ellis Peters books.

At the moment I'm reading the Thursday Next series, which is very interesting and truly weird, and part of the setting is the ability of fictional characters to skip from book to book. Maybe this is how Brother Cadfael found himself in a Sharon Kay Penman novel!

[Albion]

The Warlord Chronicles are the Arthurian ones? I've thought about picking them up from time to time. Are they set in post Roman times or the more usual generic medieval period, like Le Morte d'Arthur?

Post Roman. And, like Godless Dave said, they don't lack in the Dark Ages brutality department. They deal with both political and religious power struggles in a way that doesn't leave much to the imagination in terms of the carnage involved. Those characters were playing for high stakes. Powerful books.

[Adora]

Naw, I don't really. I loves me my good historical fiction nomatter what Miss Culturally Relevant Metaphor thinks. :wink:

:P
Then (as per your definition) as a rule of thumb I don't like the genre. Obviously there are exceptions, and uber-passionate-hatreds within the genre as well. But yeah.

*slinks back into the "not welcome in this thread" box*

[godfry n. glad]

Andre Malraux - Man's Fate (le conditione humaine)

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

John Steinbeck - Grapes of Wrath and In Dubious Battle

Stunning historical fiction.

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

The Warlord Chronicles are the Arthurian ones? I've thought about picking them up from time to time. Are they set in post Roman times or the more usual generic medieval period, like Le Morte d'Arthur?

Post Roman. And, like Godless Dave said, they don't lack in the Dark Ages brutality department. They deal with both political and religious power struggles in a way that doesn't leave much to the imagination in terms of the carnage involved. Those characters were playing for high stakes. Powerful books.

Oooo...sounds delicious. Warlord Chronicles makes my list. I like the Alfred stories, too, but that's post-Saxon. Wessex, even. Late stuff compared to what you're referencing.

Along with some Sharon Kaye Penman for some good ol' stormin' Norman stories.

Anybody here familiar with King Roger of Sicily? Eleventh century illuminati. A great basis for some good stories...

I'd like to find stories about the Varangian Guard, too, if anyone is aware of such.

godfry

[Farren]

John Steinbeck - Grapes of Wrath and In Dubious Battle

Stunning historical fiction.

godfry

I'll second Steinbeck if recent history counts. Steinbeck is brilliant.

[Blake]

Recent history must count, otherwise I can't point out that Gore Vidal's Burr is only the first of seven linked books called his American Chronicles that cover the period from about 1775 to 1954. Following the historical timeline, they are Burr (1973), Lincoln (1984), 1876 (1976), Empire (1987), and Hollywood (1990), with Washington, D.C. (1967) and The Golden Age (2000) overlapping the same concluding years. I've only read Empire; it was really good.

[Farren]

Wow I had no idea Vidal wrote so many historical novels.

[livius drusus]

Wow I had no idea Vidal wrote so many historical novels.
They are all great, be it as literature, history, politics and society pages. Vidal really has a finger on the pulse of this country and he doesn't even live here anymore.

[Clutch Munny]

Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles, or for a single book, her stunning Macbeth reconstruction, King Hereafter.

Stephen Pressfield's novel about Thermopylae, Gates of Fire.

I'll second Jack Whyte's pre-Arthurian series.

Did anyone mention James Michener yet? I thought Poland and Centennial, among others, were quite gripping.

liv, that Ken Follett book totally blind-sided me. I'd read The Key to Rebecca once upon a time, and had to slap myself for wasting my time so horribly. But when trapped in the cabin for a week one summer, I dug out Pillars of the Earth in desperation and read it. Astonishing!

Then, momentarily converted, I read a later book of his, Night Over Water, I think it was called, and had to slap myself again. Maybe Ken had one great book in him?

[Farren]

Yeah I dig Michener. I've read Hawai, The Fires of Spring and a couple of others I can't remember the title's of right now but I enjoyed every one. He's a really comfortable read, easy to slip into.

[freemonkey]

But when trapped in the cabin for a week one summer, I dug out Pillars of the Earth in desperation and read it. Astonishing!

I picked it up today for $1 at the local St. Vinnie's (yay me!). Plus another book, London, by Edward Rutherford.

Damn you, liv. So many big, fat books - so little time.

[livius drusus]

Did anyone mention James Michener yet? I thought Poland and Centennial, among others, were quite gripping.

I've read Space and Hawaii and enjoyed them both. My dad carried the former around in his suitcase for years, labouring under the sad misapprehension that he would eventually actually read the thing. One trip to Barbados complete with hurricane later, and that suitcase book finally got itself read.

liv, that Ken Follett book totally blind-sided me. I'd read The Key to Rebecca once upon a time, and had to slap myself for wasting my time so horribly. But when trapped in the cabin for a week one summer, I dug out Pillars of the Earth in desperation and read it. Astonishing!

I had read On Wings of Eagles and that one about Afghanistan with the French spy dude who ate pussy expertly but with little enjoyment (ah, the things that stick with us when we read our moms' paperbacks as adolescents), so I can very much identify with your astonishment at the wonder of PotE .

Then, momentarily converted, I read a later book of his, Night Over Water, I think it was called, and had to slap myself again. Maybe Ken had one great book in him?

I know I would die proud if I had written something like that, nomatter how much crapola I had generated before and after.

[livius drusus]

I picked it up today for $1 at the local St. Vinnie's (yay me!). Plus another book, London, by Edward Rutherford.

Damn you, liv. So many big, fat books - so little time.

Yay! I promise you'll blaze through it, freemonkey. I read my copy at least once a year. In fact, I've replaced it thrice now because of binding failure due to excessive adoration.

Please be sure to report back when you read it. :yup:

[freemonkey]

I read my copy at least once a year.

My husband is that way with Lonesone Dove; he reads the book, and then watches the entire 6 or 8 hour mini-series on DVD!

[Blake]

I remember lots of good historical fiction from when I was a kid, too. Meaty, but written within "children's complexity tolerances" (to coin a vague and probably meaningless phrase): The Bearkeeper's Daughter, about a hypothetical lovechild of Empress Theodora, or The Eagle of the Ninth, by Rosemary Sutcliffe. She has other good ones, as does another author, Henry Treece. I vaguely remember scads of other ones; does The Wool-Pack ring any other bells?

[godfry n. glad]

Neville Shute's A Town Like Alice is a nice treatment of an historical period in fictional form. And, they made a decent video of it.

godfry

[maddog]

Oooh, cool thread! Lots of good reads here, for me to add to my list.

I cut my teeth on historical fiction as a kid; I loved the "Witch of Blackbird Pond" about colonial Salem, "Warrior Scarlet" about a boy in Bronze-Age Britain, and "With the Eagles," (I want to say the author's name is Anderson, but I just can't remember) about serving with a Roman Legion.

I think it was Rosemary Sutcliffe who wrote an Arthurian tale (5th C Romano-Britain) in which the lead character was given the name "Artos the Bear."

Everyone I talked to about Michener highly recommended "The Source," but I found it frustrating and inauthentic. Edward Rutherfurd does that "slices of time" thing also, but much better, IMO. "Sarum" was brilliant. "Russka" wasn't quite as good, but it did give me some understanding of the Russian national character, and how it has been deeply affected by geopolitics.

Sir Walter Scott's "Heart of Midlothian," "The Talisman," "Kenilworth," and, of course, "Ivanhoe" were all Romantic successes to me.

I liked Thomas B. Costain, too, if you've ever run across any of his ("The Silver Chalice" I remember).

Jean Auel is pre-history, but still, I thought she did an outstanding job in "Clan of the Cave Bear," right up until the end. I thought the end, with the "vision" was just dumb. The second book, "Valley of Horses," has the heroine going off and taming horses, inventing all kinds of things no one single person could do, and so on. It was just unbelievable and spoiled the story for me. The "Others" who were traveling across the Steppes with frame backpacks were also a little much to swallow. I lost interest and stopped.

I really wanted to like "The Red Tent," but it just seemed an anachronistic apologetic.

I love the Brother Cadfael series, but the "Gordianus the Finder" books by Steven Saylor were a bit flat for my taste. I think his history is OK, but his characterizations weren't convincing to me. I've never tried the de Falco Roman mystery series. There's an Egyptian one, too, about Ramses, that wasn't terribly good. (Reminds me, another one I read as a kid was all about an Egyptian boy becoming a scribe and carrying a sacred scarab seal. Danged if I can remember anything else about it.)

I've read two of the "Masters of Rome" series by Colleen McCullough, and agree wholeheartedly that they are fantastic. My problem is that I have them in paperback, so the diagrams and maps are too dang difficult to read! I want big ones!

I enjoyed "Shogun" rather a lot, but didn't try any more Clavell yet. It pissed me off that he stopped just when the story was getting good!

I checked out "Kongo" in books on tape and was pretty intrigued by the Portuguese exploration of Africa.

Susan Vreeland's "Girl in Hyacinth Blue" was an interesting look at the adventures of a painting through various periods of history. I started her "Artemisia," but got turned off at the beginning because the heroine is tortured by the Inquisition to get her to recant charges of rape, but her father is bought off, so she ends up being "damaged goods" and is more or less shunted off into an unwanted marriage which she too readily (IMO) accepts. It wasn't emotionally true, to me.

"The Name of the Rose," by Umberto Eco was for me, like Clan of the Cave Bear, fabulous, right up until the end. The denoument was anti-climactic.

If you liked Hornblower, you might like the Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian (e.g., "Master and Commander," etc., though the movie is not the same story as the book).

Josephine Tey's "Daughter of Time" was like a contemporary plus historical story, looking into Richard III and the Princes in the Tower.

I know there are others; I just can't think at the moment. Anyway, great thread, liv & everybody!

#5

[freemonkey]

Everyone I talked to about Michener highly recommended "The Source," but I found it frustrating and inauthentic.
You're not alone.... I quit after the first 75 pages or so. It was feeling like a romance novel to me.

I just remembered one I read recently, Year of Wonders (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002D6D9W/qid=1094739793/sr=8-12/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i12_xgl14/002-9560959-1354447?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Geraldine Brooks. About a resurgence of plague that invades a small village in the 17th century. It was great until the last quarter of the book, where it takes a turn for the stupid. :madrant:

[livius drusus]

I cut my teeth on historical fiction as a kid; I loved the "Witch of Blackbird Pond" about colonial Salem...

Me too! Elizabeth George Speare was a big favorite of mine. Did you ever come across The Bronze Bow? It's a compelling story about a rebellious Jewish blacksmith in Roman times. Jesus has a couple of great cameos; in fact, I think my childhood beliefs were very much inspired by Speare's depiction of Christ.

She has a strongly humanist perspective on matters of religion, I think, and that comes through in Witch as well as TBB.

The "Others" who were traveling across the Steppes with frame backpacks were also a little much to swallow. I lost interest and stopped.

It was the mammoth sex scene in The Mammoth Hunters that made me abandon Auel forever. It was just beyond ludicrous.

/me shakes her head

Susan Vreeland's "Girl in Hyacinth Blue" was an interesting look at the adventures of a painting through various periods of history.

That sounds great. One of my favorite non-fiction books (Wisdom and Strength) follows the history of one painting. It's amazing how much history and life is entwined with art. I'm sure it makes a fine novel.

I started her "Artemisia," but got turned off at the beginning because the heroine is tortured by the Inquisition to get her to recant charges of rape, but her father is bought off, so she ends up being "damaged goods" and is more or less shunted off into an unwanted marriage which she too readily (IMO) accepts. It wasn't emotionally true, to me.

It sounds like the timing is a bit off and the Inquisition had nothing at all do with it, but sadly, the story is basically true. Artemisia would indeed have accepted marriage to her actual rapist; she pushed for it, in fact, and her dad didn't sue for damages (hence the trial and her torture) until after the rapist (her teacher and long-time friend of the family) made it clear that he wasn't going to marry her.

The true story of Artemisia Gentileschi already reads like fiction. I'm going to have to write an article about her sometime.

If you liked Hornblower, you might like the Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian (e.g., "Master and Commander," etc., though the movie is not the same story as the book).

Any book starring Stephen Maturin is okay with me. ;) I've been meaning to check those out. Thanks for the tip.

I know there are others; I just can't think at the moment. Anyway, great thread, liv & everybody!

I agree, and thank you for adding more greatness. :)

[Bella]

Here's something not to read: The Dress Lodger. I don't recall who wrote it, and I'm not going to give the book the honour of my time by even looking it up on Amazon.com. I bought it because the topic interested me - dress lodgers are prostitutes that pay rent for a fashionable dress, in hopes that their clientele will be higher-class and therefore pay more money for their services. I was looking for something...intelligent? Entertaining? Well-written? Sadly, the book was none of these things.

[Beth]

I recently finished Guenevere, Queen of the Summer Country by Rosalind Miles. I liked it at first. It was a well written novel, but, well, it was such a religious book. Not the Christian religion, per say, but the goddess worship. It did show, I think, that the pagan were as devout to their faiths as the Xians were, but it became, well, a drag over time. It spoke much on the matriarchal society Britian once was and how the evil Christians came in and are trying to destroy the old ways.
I am reading another religious themed book, The Name of the Rose, and I think this one is much better and much better written and for some reason it seems more secular.

One of the first non-Nancy Drew, non- Alfred Hitchcock, and non-Hardy Boys stories I read as a kid was The Witch of Blackbird Pond. It also opened my eyes to Puritanism and taught me a lesson that always kept me from becoming too Puritanical as a child and as an adult, so, I suppose I should say that the book had a huge impact me. It also wetted my mouth to meatier children's books. Thank goodness for the Scholastic Book Club!

[LadyShea]

Bumping this thread to report I have just finished I, Elizabeth by Rosalind Miles (http://www.rosalind.net/) . It was excellent and highly recommended. I have ordered the first book in this author's Guinevere series. Although she doesn't go into much on her website, Miles is a PhD and her intelligence shows through in her writing.

[wade-w]

If you liked Hornblower, you might like the Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian (e.g., "Master and Commander," etc., though the movie is not the same story as the book).


I loved the Hornblower series. I also enjoyed Alexander Kent's Bolitho books. I generally like historical naval fiction, and I think its fair to say that this interest had some influence on which service I chose when I decided to enlist.

I recently tried to read Patrick O'Brian. I tried two, including Master and Commander. I was not able get even halfway through either. The dialog was bizarre and often not connected to anything I could see, and the plots were not at all engaging.

[Dingfod]

My latest foray into historical fiction was former President Jimmy Carter's The Hornet's Nest. Blah, blah, blah. I just couldn't get into it, the characters were not well developed. In six chapters I didn't see any reason to care about any of the major players at all. That's all the further I got, I just gave up, wasn't interested any more. Jimmy, to have a successful fictional novel you need to draw your reader into the story in the first few pages, you failed to do that for me. Jimmy, you should stick to farming peanuts, building houses for Habitat for Humanity and monitoring elections in fucked up countries and being one of our country's greatest elder statesmen.

[beyelzu]

Is anyone else here a fan of historical fiction? When it's well-researched and engagingly written, historical fiction may well be my favorite kind of novel. A novel with a glossary makes my heart pound.

Speaking of which, Colleen McCullough's Masters of Rome series (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380710811/qid=1094408311/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-0468532-8150307?v=glance&s=books) wins the glossary prize hands down. It also happens to cover one of my favorite historical periods: the decline and fall of the Roman Republic (including the classic life and death of my namesake, Marcus Livius Drusus).

From several decades later, but still wonderfully ancient Roman, Lindsay Davis' Marcus Didius Falco Series (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/series/-/504/paperback/ref=pd_serl_books/104-0468532-8150307) of mystery novels is fantastic, both as hardboiled detective fiction and as an emotionally realistic depiction of life way back when.

Last (but certainly not least), the godfather of the ancient Rome category: Robert Graves with his I, Claudius (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067972477X/ref=pd_sim_books_4/104-0468532-8150307?v=glance&s=books) and Claudius the God (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679725733/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-0468532-8150307?v=glance&s=books). Graves is just such a good writer, and he covers the various Augustan nutters with brilliant wit and empathy.

Okay, one more and then I promise I'll stop. Ken Follet, author of spy novels I've never much liked but my mom really loves, just happens to have written the best medieval historical novel I've ever read: The Pillars of the Earth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451166892/qid=1094410756/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-0468532-8150307). Covering the 12th c. English civil wars from the death of Henry I to the murder of Thomas a Beckett, the book is a riveting glimpse into all kinds of life and history. Monastic life, fleece fairs, itinerant masons, the architecture of Gothic cathedrals, sexy, independent outlaw women, court politics, rape and pillage, priests dressed up as Saracens: it's all in there.

Anyone else a fan of the genre?


proceed with thead resurrection in

3
2
1

ok.

Interestingly enough, you named both of the the pieces of historical fiction that I love. The Masters of Rome series and Pillars of the earth are incredibly kickass. Now, I will have to go to BooksaMillion and check out your other series.

I love reading through the glossary of any of the Masters of Rome books, those glossaries are a wealth of information.

Pillars of the Earth was one of the first large books I read at a young age. I read it when I was ten or twelve. Great fucking book.

[livius drusus]

You're going to love Falco, I just know it. Even money says he'll be a new favorite on your bookshelf.

[freemonkey]

I'm almost half the way through Pillars of the Earth, and I'm really enjoying the story (I'm not as impressed with some of the actual writing, though. Not that I know anything about writing, mind you. I said the same thing about McMurtry's Lonesome Dove, a story I got lost in). Can any officiandos of medieval history tell me how accurate Pillars is?

[Ymir's blood]

You're going to love Falco, I just know it. Even money says he'll be a new favorite on your bookshelf.
Ooh, Rock me Amadeus!
Ooh, Rock me Amadeus!

:notes2: :note: :music: :note2: :rimshot:

[seebs]

Sometimes. As long as you don't try to make me believe that "Johnny Tremaine" was serious literature.

Keith Roberts wrote a wonderful alternate-historical book called "Pavane" which I rather liked.

[cappuccino]

Please forgive me for invoking my necromancy abilities and resurrecting this thread :zombits: I couldn't pass it up without a comment .

Historical fiction is one of my intensely favorite genres! My childhood was illuminated by many a book from this genre including those from other genres.

I remember The Pillars of the Earth with fondness, my father had tossed it into the trash where I discovered it and performed an emergency rescue. I've keenly enjoyed Steven Saylor's (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/102-4704535-2320142?url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above&field-keywords=Steven+Saylor&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go) ancient Roman mystery novels which are similar to Colleen McCullough and Lindsay Davis' series. I haven't read those authors yet but they are now high up on my list of To-Read-ASAP.

James Clavell's Shogun is another of wonderful book I've read. I have yet to read his other works but I'm keenly looking forward to them. Shogun utterly drew me into the world of Japan and by the end of the book, I was thinking almost like a Japanese.

Still more books I've read over the years and even more books brought up on this thread that I absolutely must check out. I love reading but damn, books keep coming out that I just want to read but it's next to impossible to find time for all of them. Guess I'll have to perseverate in gathering up as many books as possible for reading. If the stack reaches all the way to the moon then by IPU I'll just have to go to the moon then.

[livius drusus]

Yay! I love it when this thread gets necromanced. :zombieglomp:

I read my first Steven Saylor Gordianus novel a couple of months ago, Demosthenes. It was the one where Cicero defends the Sextus Roscius from parricide charges. I liked it, but I didn't find it as gripping as Lindsay or Colleen's works.

You simply must report back once you check them out. :wriggle:

[LadyShea]

Necromancy after 2.5 years. I am finally able to read seriously again and have ordered two books mentioned in this thread (the first Falco and the Thursday Next which sounded fascinating). Perhaps some new board members might like to recommend a few?

[livius drusus]

Yay! My favorite bump. :wriggle:

Didius Falco continues to rock. I think Davis is up to the 18th book in the series now. Be sure to post your impressions of The Silver Pigs when you're done, Shea.

[LadyShea]

Yay! My favorite bump. :wriggle:

Didius Falco continues to rock. I think Davis is up to the 18th book in the series now. Be sure to post your impressions of The Silver Pigs when you're done, Shea.

I will. Have you read any of the suggested books in the last few years to comment on?

[InTheServiceOfZeke]

i recently finished the book 1916: A Novel of the Irish Rebellion by Morgan Llewellyn. The book uses a fictional protagonist to draw together the real events and characters involved in the uprising. it was a really good book.

here's somebody's blog about it:
http://mplatts.blogspot.com/2007/12/1916-by-morgan-llewellyn.html

[vremya]

This thread popped up at just the right time - I've been looking for something to read that has nothing to do with school.

I just got back from the used book store with a copy of Rutherfurd's London. I wanted Follet, but they didn't have what I wanted, maybe next time.

[vremya]

London is great - I ended up staying up an extra hour, just to find out what happened next. I love books like that!

[BDS]

War and Peace is probably the most famous example of the genre (if we disqualify the Iliad as not being "fiction").

[freemonkey]

I don't know how historical these actually are, but I've just started reading the Amelia Peabody mystery series. Set in the early 1900's, in Egypt, among archaeologists.

I've only finished the first one, and just started the second. They feel like 1940's mummy movies to me, but with more actual Egyptology.

[Uthgar the Brazen]

The thread title made me think it was about Peter Marshall's dreck (http://www.amazon.com/Light-Glory-Peter-Marshall/dp/0800750543/ref=pd_sim_b_img_1). :shudder:

[LadyShea]

Okay I finished the 2 books I bought

The Eyre Affair: A Thursday Next Novel by Jasper Fforde

I started this expecting HHGTTG meets Harry Potter. It was not what I expected. It's not as funny or nonsensical as Hitchikers, nor as immersive in the alternate reality as Potter.

When I got rid of the expectations, it was an enjoyable romp, if a bit fluffy. It's an alternate history/fantasy/sci fi with the somewhat odd addition of English Lit., so may appeal to fans of any of those genres. I am not sure as yet whether I will continue the series.


The Silver Pigs: A Marcus Didius Falco Mystery by Lindsey Davis

Perhaps I needed to have studied ancient Rome some before reading the book, as many of the customs, settings, and cultural references were not explained in detail, and so I was a bit lost at times.

Also, she was inconsistent with her references which caused me confusion. For example, a character might be introduced with their full formal name Publius Camillus Meto, then referred to as only Publius for 20 chapters, then suddenly referred to as Meto for the first time since being introduced. I had to go look up the Dramatis Personae section to remind myself who some people were several times. I assume, since different characters used the different variations, it is based on customary forms of address used by different ranks and relations.

Past that though, a good story, engaging characters, and since ancient Rome was the setting and the "real world" for the characters, I should not have expected textbook like explanations and descriptions. I will be continuing the series.

[vremya]

I made some serious headway into Pillars of the Earth this afternoon. (I was proctoring the LSAT, so they more or less paid me to read) A terrific book so far.

[freemonkey]

The Silver Pigs: A Marcus Didius Falco Mystery by Lindsey Davis

I found this at Value Village a few weeks ago, started it last night. I'm trying to read it like a Saturday afternoon private dick flick. :spy: