Forums...belonging or not to belonging

[Gawen]

I imagine many of you have gone to forums...and there are a plethora of forums for every imaginable subject...and thought.."Na. This one ain't for me"?

But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this?

[ceptimus]

I think there is a hurdle to get over before you begin to feel 'at home' in a forum. Once you've passed the 20~30 post barrier (or just read a sufficient number of posts, if you are the 'lurker' type) you start to feel as though you belong there, and you know some of the other regular posters.

Getting past the hurdle is down to luck in the timing of your first few visits. If, on your first visit, you happen to be interested in one of the threads, then you make a post or two, and get into the habit of visiting the place to check for replies - then you're hooked. On the other hand if nothing catches your eye during the first few visits, you are likely not to check the place out for a while. Once you've visited, say, ten times running and not found anything interesting, you're likely to think, "This place is not for me." and visit no more.

[JoeP]

A lot of people need to lurk (or participate at a low level) before getting a feel for a place. "What attracted you to the forum in the first place" could be very little - it costs nothing to sign up and browse a bit.

I don't have much of an answer on what it takes to feel a forum is right for me, or anyone. But one part of it is taking some effort. You can't drop in every few weeks and expect to get a lot out of it. That's me and iidb. (The sheer volume of activity at iidb is what's put me off feeling a part of it.) I'm not saying you need to post and respond, but you do need to be there.

"Belonging" is another level altogether. There are forums which can be appealing and comfortable and yet you can not "belong". Low activity forums, or forums where posts are not acknowledged with any personal interaction.

This was a free thought, yadayada

[Farren]

Well I only know I joined one forum to take part in a discussion about the Iraq war (IIDB), got to know Christ-on-a-Stick, who is my ultimate favourite Internet person, then followed her to another forum, from which I followed the people I subsequently got to know here.

That's the sum total of my forum experiences - wait, I lie. I signed up on the Morrowind game forum because I was doing a lot of Morrowind modding and I briefly flirted with Mykeru.com because of DoctorX's little drama on HH, but found there were too few users there to keep me coming back for a look-see.

So my own forum experience has been almost entirely selecting forums based on topical issues being discussed and where the really A-grade and super amazing people are, like here.

[livius drusus]

I think there is a hurdle to get over before you begin to feel 'at home' in a forum. Once you've passed the 20~30 post barrier (or just read a sufficient number of posts, if you are the 'lurker' type) you start to feel as though you belong there, and you know some of the other regular posters.

I think that's true, but with a caveat: once a lurker starts posting, the hurdle gets reset. It's really easy to feel ignored and marginalized when you know everyone and they don't know you.

I lurked on IIDB for almost a year before I began posting in earnest, and the number of carefully thought out posts I wrote which received no response whatsoever was not exactly conducive to feeling like a member of the community. It's an odd kind of dissonance, too, because I had been such an assiduous reader (and bookmarker) that I knew more about the people and place than most, but it took ages before I made an impression on people the way they had made an impression on me.

[Ex-zombie]

I came to this forum from IIDB. I post there under a different user name. I went there as I was deconverting from Christianity. I got here by looking under Livius Drusus's profile at IIDB. I like forums to be a mix of learning and humor. I don't know whether I should reveal this or not as it might cause someone's head to swell up like a balloon. Livius Drusus is my favorite poster at IIDB.

[Gawen]

It was just a thought...a question that I thought I'd pose to you all. How many of you consider this a sort of 'home'? A place to play...have fun, discuss things comfortably with people you like and like you? I ask this because the forum is small yet. People here seem to be fairly close-knit. Many enjoy the same things.

*thinkin*...Perhaps some forums are used just for the intellectual, others for whinging, and others run by core groups that run the place as they see fit...whatever. I reckon people use a forum for whatever purposes...(duh...lol). It's not so much of what kind of impression one makes or is looking for, but at the same time it's acceptance in the things they talk about.

[livius drusus]

My head seems to be its usual size (I know; that's not saying much), but I am quite thoroughly enchanted nonetheless. I've posted so infrequently on IIDB in the past few months that your appreciation comes as a genuine surprise and thrill to me.

Thank you, Ex-zombie. :kiss:

[wildernesse]

It was just a thought...a question that I thought I'd pose to you all. How many of you consider this a sort of 'home'? A place to play...have fun, discuss things comfortably with people you like and like you? I ask this because the forum is small yet. People here seem to be fairly close-knit. Many enjoy the same things.

I have to admit that in the short time that I've been here, this place has sucked me in and I'm here more than anywhere else (board-wise--I'm in infidelchat several hours most days!). I like social interaction--chatting about random ideas and everyday stuff (food, movies, etc.) with most of the online people I know and like best. Since I don't care much about arguing and debating (especially the same thing over and over again) about religion--and I'm not a serious person in most respects--a forum that is more social is great. Plus the atmosphere is much less adversarial here than most places--which suits me. The only person who I want to beat here is Blake. . .and that's only at Alchemy.

Plus, posting and reading here fills up a good deal of my nearly unquenchable desire for daily social interaction, so I don't end up depressed about lack of interaction when I'm restraining myself from emailing/calling/talking to or being with my IRL friends and family. Self-restraint--who would have thought I had any of that.

[freemonkey]

Sure, I've wandered into a forum and realized I didn't belong. Obviously, there are many more places I'd feel out of place than not.

I feel very comfortable here, probably mostly because I've known, and enjoyed the company of, so many of the members here from iidb & HH.

I've joined, lurked and even marginally participated at a few other fora, most for photography and art. After awhile I felt I didn't really have so much in common with many of those people, deep down, and just stopped visiting. I sometimes wonder why I seem to have less in common with people who have the same profession/hobbies/interests. The only answer I can come up with is that my interests are many and varied, and conscious freethinkers are also varied, making them more interesting to me. Among other things. Just a theory, I don't know.

[viscousmemories]

Great question, Gawen. You'll be sorry you asked. :)

It's hard question because there are so many factors to consider. Honestly I've been pretty active in half a dozen forums and this is the first one where I really feel like I belong.

I dabbled in a couple forums before I found IIDB, but that was the first one that I participated in a lot. At first I felt like I belonged there. But most of the threads I started or joined were in Miscellaneous Discussions or Morals, Foundations and Principles, I almost never even read the religion-oriented forums.

The biggest problem I had there was that I started a few threads in the ICR that rapidly went to hell in a handbasket, and I lost favor with certain of the admins early on. I thought they were closed-minded to suggestions and dependent on ad hoc justifications for plainly illogical procedures, and they thought I was a demanding, stubborn, self-righteous and implacable complainer. Frankly I think we were both at least partly right, but that's neither here nor there.

I became kind of scarce around there when I started the old Freethinkers Forum (which became Godless Heathens, now Heathen Hangout) but to be honest I never really felt "at home" there either. When liv and I started that forum I didn't really know 9/10 of the people that joined. It was pretty much a replacement for the IIDB FPF's, which I had only been a member of for a couple weeks. So basically I built the house, but it really wasn't my party. I don't blame anyone but circumstances and myself for that not working out.

Last fall I came to realize that I no longer had the opposition to theists I had when I joined IIDB and when I started the first FF. I was and am still an atheist (albeit closer to a weak-atheist/agnostic than the strong atheist I was), I'm still very liberal in my political and social views, and I still strongly support the separation of Church and State and such. But I have a much more live and let live and much less arrogant attitude about it all. I understand that there are people who are quite good at arguing both for and against various aspects of belief, and that it would take a lot more education for me to compete. I still enjoy the debates to a degree, but really only when people are respectful of each other. And I don't mean devoid of any passion or personality, just mindful of the fact that their opponent is a person.

Anyway so that's when I started to realize how virulently anti-theist the atmosphere at IIDB is, and I was one of the people who argued that such an environment isn't conducive to anyone learning anything. So I was labeled as part of the so-called "civility movement" there and have felt ostracized to a certain extent on that basis. So, when you combine my experiences with the administration with my opinion about the (still prevalent, IMO) anti-theist atmosphere there, it's safe to say I don't feel at all at home there anymore. This despite the fact that I still enjoy interacting with a lot of the people from there, staff included.

I also spend some time at skepticalcommunity.com, which is an offshoot of JREF. I've posted much more at the former than the latter, and I've met some really cool people there who have also joined here. I still go there, but as much as IIDB is an atheist-oriented site, SC is a skeptic-oriented site. There have been some great discussions and as I said there are some great people, but I still don't really feel at home because I don't strongly identify as a skeptic. I mean I am a skeptic (probably moreso then most people I know) but I just don't find any comfort in wearing the colors of a 'side'.

I feel right here, though. This feels like my home. The forum structure, rules, policies, etc. are all just what I think they should be. ;) I know many of the people from the previous forums, and they must be getting something here they aren't getting somewhere else so that makes me happy because I helped make it. On the flipside I know there are some people who are not here who might otherwise really enjoy it and/or add to the atmosphere, simply because I'm one of the administrators. So that's a bit disheartening.

However, I am also well-aware of the fact that forum culture changes. People come and go, moods change and temperaments flare up. There will be fights, trolls, etc. and things could take a turn for the worse. We'll have to see about that. But so far yeah, this place feels like home to me. I'm really happy with it so far and even happier that there seems to be a number of you who are happy too. :)

[xorbie]

I'll just give my own little story. I started out in the deplorable dregs of yahoo chat when I was about 15 or 16 or so. I was mostly looking for debate, but it is, as one would expect, abysmal there. Anyway, eventually I just got sick of it and found IIDB after Goochs Dad (who also chatted on yahoo) mentioned it once. What I first loved about II was the debate... I was at that stage in my life when I was really just starting to explore all these concepts and arguments and I yearned for discussion/debate with others. My first 100 posts or so were probably all in EoG, GRD and P. As PD has the most volatile and heated debates (or tied with GRD), I ended up posting there a ton as well.

I don't think I even posted in TL until I had about 500 posts, and had been around for a month or so. II never really felt like a community to me, until I started to chat in infidelchat with Didy, Blex, wade and some other mods and posters. Then I eventually became a mod, but I think it still took me until about a couple weeks ago for it to really hit me... that II was just a place I felt really comfortable at. And thats why I'm here (and at HH). It's just a group of people I feel comfortable with.

But to me, that comfort is something that developed over time. Oddly enough, I've also developed some level of comfort with my favorite counterstrike server, and I never play anywhere else. I think there is just something visceral in me (all of us?) that likes regularity... likes seeing familiar faces (or names).

[Adora]

I imagine many of you have gone to forums...and there are a plethora of forums for every imaginable subject...and thought.."Na. This one ain't for me"?
But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this?

It was Stile.

No, seriously, I once registered there. And it wasn't for a dare.

But on a more discuss-able note...

Recently in my wanderings through a certain fandom*, I came upon on of those Big Name Forums that everyone in the fandom knows, and signed up for the hell of it. Heh, bad move. The forum was so not me. It was just far too vanilla, and very much focused on... younger aspects of the fandom (no slash discussions, all sex/romance discussions kept under PG-13, no swearing, no discussion of antagonists in the original story, or if they do they all took the canon view that "OMG They R teh ebil", prejudice against anyone who even vaguely steps out of line or doesn't ship the same as everyone else, yadda yadda yadda). Basically, it was a site for 13 year olds who write shitty Mary Sues and post them at fanfiction.net . When I realised this, I couldn't (well, okay, maybe I could) understand why the fuck this site kept on being A-Okayed by the Author of the original text in interviews & shit, or why it always showed up in internet articles about the fandom. *shudders*

But then I discovered souls similar to myself and they pointed me in the right direction and now I am happy and have found my place at another forum which was basically made for people like me. *yayyy*

Currently I count my livejournal/journalfen** comings and goings as my web-touchstone, since I am abandoning my deviantArt site. DA has turned to a steaming pile of shit (as opposed to the tolerable non-steaming pile of shit it was before), and just doesn't cut it for me anymore. I may one day open a new account there and post some of my shit again, but that will probably only because I really really want to look at other people's art who post there. Convienience issues I guess. The site is really fucking slow and ugly these days as well, which shits me off to no end, and coupled with some of the ridiculous attempts to try and make the site as constructive as it used to be, it's just annoying me to hell.

There have been places where the relationship between myself and the forum has soured slowly over time, like the same thing with DA, but that's only happened once or twice.

This place is like a lot of the other forums I visit these days. I used to count a very old forum I hung around on as my touchstone, but after I got my place at DA I stopped doing that. I enjoy myself here and everything, just as I do on other forums I visit.

* No, I will not tell you which one.

** No, you cannot have my account name.

Look ma. A non atheist-forum based reply. Well don't I feel like the fucking black sheep around here...

[Gawen]

Interesting responses all. I appreciate everyone's forthrightness.
I no longer go to HH. I haven't been to SAB in a year. I'm not interested in Secularity or SecularLife, from what I've seen at either site, even though I have not participated.

Thank you all for responding.

[reprise]

I wouldn't have a clue how many forums I've registered at over the last few years - it would be well over a hundred. Most are OK places at which to hang out for a while but quickly become somewhere I only check out occasionally.

The very first forum I ever joined was the Yahoo wrestling chatroom (I kid you not). I'm a registered user at Stormfront and the Pizza Parlor - definitely not places at which I fell at home.

[livius drusus]

I'm registered at Stormfront too (not as livius). I was trying to trace a couple of Nazis who had popped on IIDB, but I never posted. What a scary, scary place. Did you ever post there, reprise?

[reprise]

I'm registered at Stormfront too (not as livius). I was trying to trace a couple of Nazis who had popped on IIDB, but I never posted. What a scary, scary place. Did you ever post there, reprise?

IIRC, I have about three post there. As you said, a scary place.

[seebs]

I like IIDB occasionally, but I basically lost faith in the moderation over the whole Biff the Unclean/Yahzi thing. There are some forums I visit on and off. I'm most active at CF -- not because I always feel at home there, but because I have a large audience to work on, and ultimately, I like to persuade people. :)

I'm not sure what makes a forum "home". Cross+Flame is probably the most comfortable forum I've ever seen. At CF, I almost always feel like a bit of an intruder; too many people who are quite sure I'm not really Christian. IIDB goes the other way; too many people who are just looking for excuses to bash me as "not rational enough" because they dislike my conclusions on a few questions. :) This place is actually pretty friendly. I have to say, I like a forum where I can say "fuck" occasionally. I don't like having to filter my naturally "expressive" language. (And note that I'm not one of those people who can't swear without cusswords; I just like having the option.)

[godfry n. glad]

Hmmm...

I started all this at Usenet's alt.atheism. I was comfortable there, despite not considering myself an "atheist" (I hated defining myself as a "not-something"). After a couple of years there, the static level outweighed the decent conversation levels and many abused the open forum approach with strings of incessant unwarrented antitheistic profanity. I thought it amusing at first, but it got old very quickly.

I bailed and started searching for a board where I could seriously discuss the history of early christianity and the historicity of Jesus, which fascinates me. I bounced around a few sites on Yahoo! and left one in a huff, because I considered their approach to the issues to be so much intellectual masturbation, and made it clear I thought so. So many historical Jesus lists start with the assumption that he existed and then attempt to construct what this real Jesus was really like....I questioned this assumption.

At the point of exiting that list in a huff, I was recruited to moderate for JesusMysteries, a list that seriously discusses the historicity of Jesus and closely related historical issues of the development of scripture and the early church. I take a great deal of pride in participating in the establishment and running of that list. We demanded civility and, curiously, it was largely the theists who ended up violating the list guidelines with startling frequency. During that period, I stumbled into IIDB's BC&A (later BC&H) forum, where I liked the level of exchange and enjoyed the participants. I'm still listed as a moderator at JM, but I arrived at a comfortable intellectual position vis a vis a historical Jesus and began losing interest in the endless circular arguments and morbid equine flagellation. I started spending more time at IIDB.

Then my wife was diagnosed with cancer. I needed more socialization....so I started monitoring the more social boards at IIDB. I found a community in which I was comfortable. I came to consider IIDB my "home away from home (JM)" online. After my wife died, I became.... I dunno...erratic? Irasible? Irritating? I lashed out at a lot of people. I became entangled with a "woman" who I came to think of as a predator of my precious community at IIDB. I tried to take things into my own hands to warn my community and got suspended for it. During suspension, I was "handled" by the most ham-handed and dense administrator I've come across before or since. For those who know me, when I'm angry I don't mince words and I'm very straightforward. It got me banned.

A compassionate poster directed me to what was then GH, and later HH. I arrived there bitter and angry that I'd been exiled by my community. After a rocky start, I did well there until my temper again got the better of me and I did some insensitive posting...along with some cogent criticism of the "moderation". The later, from my perspective, got me banned there.

I've got another list that I consider a "hideaway", but the activity level is too low and the really active part of the list seems to want to engage at a scholatic level I'm not willing to take on at this point. I also do not trust one of the major moderators on that list. But, I need the socialization. I like the folks here. I'm still an atheist (more like a militant agnostic, really), and I'll still confront theistic assumptions when presented, but I've come to believe that everyone is entitled to their harmless delusions....including me. I like the nominal theists I've engaged with here.

At this point, I consider this to be my online community, but since I've been tossed from two ostensibly "open" lists, I prudently keep my options open with JM and my other "hideaway". I think that vm and liv probably have a better understanding of me and my style online than most other list operators.

I like being able to "think what I want and say what I think." Although that includes being able to cast an occasional insult, I've found that endless repetitious badmouthing is boooooring. It's static that adds nothing to the discourse.

I like being able to converse with interesting and thoughtful fellow humans who have something worthwhile to offer up about the world they inhabit with me. I learn things and I get to impart some of my opinions....which I, of course, think pass as "knowledge".

When the static becomes too great, I'll wander away. When the exchange level becomes too slow and belabored, I'll wander away. If the content of the conversations become too simplistic or egregiously malevolent, I'll wander away. If the moderation refuses to allow me to express myself adequately, I'll usually be banned. So be it.

Clear guidelines that are consistantly enforced are a big plus. Guidelines that allow a lot of latitude in expression are appreciated. No hypocrisy is good, too; what is expected of the regular participants should also be expected of those in authority - model the expected behavior. Interesting participants who have something intellectually stimulating to offer tops it all off. That's why I'm here.

godfry

[livius drusus]

Wow, godfry; that was a really wonderful post. Thank you. I'm genuinely honored and so pleased to have you here. :hug:

[godfry n. glad]

Wow, godfry; that was a really wonderful post. Thank you. I'm genuinely honored and so pleased to have you here. :hug:

heh... You say that now. Just you wait. :choices:

I must say that I am still truly gratified with your intercession in the shit-slinging session betwixt vm and I in HH. I don't think I've yet repaid you for your patience and willingness to read carefully what I had written.

vm I appreciate because of his forthright honesty...at least with me. We have a fair amount of commonality in our styles. That's a comfort factor for me.

I'm comfortable here...for now. Thanks, I'm honored to be here.

godfry

[viscousmemories]

vm I appreciate because of his forthright honesty...at least with me. We have a fair amount of commonality in our styles. That's a comfort factor for me.
Thanks, I see a lot of similarity myself, and I really liked your post above too.

I'm comfortable here...for now. Thanks, I'm honored to be here.

I'm glad to have you here and glad you like it. And I assure you that even if that were to change, you would not be banned for anything short of violating the rules. So basically no posting kiddie porn, viruses or copyrighted stuff and you're golden.

[Ronin]

Great post godfry.

[beyelzu]

Well I only know I joined one forum to take part in a discussion about the Iraq war (IIDB), got to know Christ-on-a-Stick, who is my ultimate favourite Internet person, then followed her to another forum, from which I followed the people I subsequently got to know here.

That's the sum total of my forum experiences - wait, I lie. I signed up on the Morrowind game forum because I was doing a lot of Morrowind modding and I briefly flirted with Mykeru.com because of DoctorX's little drama on HH, but found there were too few users there to keep me coming back for a look-see.

So my own forum experience has been almost entirely selecting forums based on topical issues being discussed and where the really A-grade and super amazing people are, like here.
dude, morrowwind is my favorite rpg of all time. I played it on xbox. I would probably get it for my pc i I knew where to get good mods for it.

my character is god like, called beyelzu naturally. fighter type, maxed out. I have quit playing it but I could only go up maybe 4 more levels. most of my major and minor skills are maxed and all my stats except luck are maxed and I killed vivec.

god I loved that game.

[beyelzu]

So basically no posting kiddie porn, viruses or copyrighted stuff and you're golden.


those were going to be my next three posts you bastard, with your rules and your standards.


your infringing on my rights to free speech.



oh wait, you say that this is your boards.


my bad.



:D

[beyelzu]

well,

I am here because I really like liv and vm.

and ronin and farren and coas and bunches and bunches of other people

edited to add seebs name cuz he has been my favorite theist poster at ii for quite awhile.



but when vm and liv announced that they were starting a board I went there. then I didnt have internet for awhile and their board wasnt anymore. and then it was.


I am the great fucking communicator, huh?

Basically, I appreciate the maturity of the admins here. They both can accept my aggressive personality for what it is, and not get offended. Course, it probably helps that we mostly see eye to eye on stuff and being reasonable people when we dont we communicate.


Plus, I love the roman theme, its uber badass.

and the smileys are good shit too.

now, if only farren will make me a fuck you penis avatar I will be very happy.



I'll make you one. It'll be this big, macho penis with "No, Fuck YOU!" tattooed on the foreskin.

farren promised.

what the fuck does a hopeful smiley look like?????


Seriously, I met Ronin in a long, long thread that we derailed at iidb

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=788870&highlight=ronin+beyelzu+spare#post788870

and he patiently argued with me for many posts, and ultimately changed my mind. this is an example of a good exchange on a forum in my opion.



I used to be a libertarian now I just have libertarian leanings.

I want a forum that challenges me and will help me grow as a person and is entertaining. Knowing the people here, this place is/will be all of those things.

[Ronin]

Ahhh, damn...italics and tildes.

Good times, good times.

:mock:

Now that I've re-read that exchange, beyelzu, I see great gaps where I was talking right around what you were saying...in favor of making some of my own points.

Thanks for taking the time to search out that bit of nostalgia. It is alarmingly refreshing to review one's behavior with the benefit of time.

I've never even met you offline and you seem more a friend of mine than those I have known for many, many years irl.

[beyelzu]

Ahhh, damn...italics and tildes.

Good times, good times.

:mock:

Now that I've re-read that exchange, beyelzu, I see great gaps where I was talking right around what you were saying...in favor of making some of my own points. but dont we all do that at times?


Thanks for taking the time to search out that bit of nostalgia. It is alarmingly refreshing to review one's behavior with the benefit of time.
it's kind of like looking up old pictures of yourself and wondering what you were thinking about your haircut. Luckily since I shave my head I wont have to think about such things in years to come. btw, it was easy to find because I could remember the first few words of my last post. Turns out all the brain cells arent dead yet, skyy makes them grow.


I've never even met you offline and you seem more a friend of mine than those I have known for many, many years irl.I have found that the thing about some of my irl friends is that I cant talk about some things. For my friends either they are apolitical, have similar views as I do, or get far too pissed off to talk about it and my liberal friends' friends all think I am the antichrist. meeting people who can actually disagree vehemently and yet without rancor was pretty eye opening for me.

I would glomp you ronin if I wasnt such a homophobe.

:glomp2:
turns out I amnot such a homophobe after all

[JoeP]

Plus, I love the roman theme, its uber badass.
Ya could at least use latin instead of german ... asinus malissimus? nates improbissimi? Latin scholars will no doubt be able to produce a better phrase! :P
Or even annus horribilis :queen: (god bless you, your majesty)

[beyelzu]

Plus, I love the roman theme, its uber badass.
Ya could at least use latin instead of german ... asinus malissimus? nates improbissimi? Latin scholars will no doubt be able to produce a better phrase! :P
Or even annus horribilis :queen: (god bless you, your majesty)

if this is rome, I am the token barbarian, just ask anyone, kind of a cuddly attila, and thus the german is appropriate.
:muahaha:

[LadyShea]

But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this?


I usually lurk a bit first, but find I need to post after a day or two and if I don't feel that need then that forum ain't for me. So far I have fit right in to most forums I have gone to...except at Sybermoms. I love it there, and want very much to be a part of that community...but not being a parent keeps me from posting there, even though many of the discussions aren't related to parenting at all.

[Chiron]

Ya could at least use latin instead of german ... asinus malissimus? nates improbissimi? Latin scholars will no doubt be able to produce a better phrase! :P
Or even annus horribilis :queen: (god bless you, your majesty)
"Horrible year"...?
You went and put in an extra n there, you barbarian. When you speak, all you say is "Bar bar bar bar"! non Romae es! Fool!

...though I honestly have no idea what sort of idiom the Romans had which could be seen as roughly analogous to "bad ass".
Pfeh.

K

[Corona688]

But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this? I got onto the forums scene kind of late... the first forum I joined was the Internet Infidels, back in 2001. The kansas evolution flap finally clued me into the fact that I was an atheist and didn't think this sort of crap should be happening, so I went looking for a big angry argument to join in on.

Instead, I found a community of roughly like-minded people. After getting over my disappointment :wink: I tested the waters with a few philosophical topics/questions/posts, and people were informative and polite in response. This was back in iidb's heyday. I got to witness the legendary Eternal and Troll Hunter firsthand.

Fastforward a few years, iidb's not so interesting anymore. Either it's changing or I am, maybye both; moderation's far tighter and everyone puts on a cheerful face, but below the surface it doesn't seem as friendly as it used to. No longer do I look for places to argue in anyway(except for occasional sport), I'm growing more interested in discussion than being right.

I also inhabit arstechnica forums, but it's not the sort of place where you can unwind and talk with friends(unless you pay the subscriptor fee).

Heathen's Hangout seemed off to a good start, but I felt ignored. It was hard-edged, somehow; I came in too late, and penetrating the cliques was difficult. Not to mention the repeated various ugly fracas that I couldn't help but read, I can't unwind in an environment like that.

This place, now... It's a freethinker's forum, but it's not about freethinkers, it's just about... stuff. We even have a computing forum. It's just the right size. I'm not ignored, castigated, or moderated, I feel I have something to contribute once in awhile, and the posters, moderators, and admins are free to act like human beings. I've never warmed up to a board so fast before, but I like it here.

[Sonnet]

I started out, for the most part, at a forum for people, mostly women, in a very specific romantic situation, then became a mod there and a member of a private, password-protected offshoot board. I'm no longer in the same situation, but after 3+ years, it's still home. However, I don't always like talking about that situation, or to the people who are in it now. We talk about other things, too, or I wouldn't stay, but I wanted to find another forum to call home. I ended up leaving the private board after a couple of years, and followed a couple of other expatriates somewhere else. That's where I met viscous and livius, and thank goodness for that, because I soon realized that I strenuously disagree with the administrative practices there (I won't be specific so that I can speak freely about what a dolt the admin was :doh:), and began to post less and less. On top of all that, viscous turned me on to HH - and then lured me here with Pool Jam (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/arcade.php?do=play&gameid=26). :cool:

A forum is only as good as its denizens, and it takes a while to find one that feels like home. This place is the most promising I've found. I like it here. :yup:

[JoeP]

Ya could at least use latin instead of german ... asinus malissimus? nates improbissimi? Latin scholars will no doubt be able to produce a better phrase! :P
Or even annus horribilis :queen: (god bless you, your majesty)
"Horrible year"...?
You went and put in an extra n there, you barbarian. When you speak, all you say is "Bar bar bar bar"! non Romae es! Fool!

...though I honestly have no idea what sort of idiom the Romans had which could be seen as roughly analogous to "bad ass".
Pfeh.

K
:qsigh:
:indifferent:
Even the little :queen: smilie didn't clue you in? It weren't me wot been and gone and put an extra n innit. It's the Queen's (http://www.fact-index.com/a/an/annus_horribilis.html) - well - Latin, no less.

[viscousmemories]

All the nice comments about this place are really great. It's hard to say what it might look like a few years from now, but I hope it's much the same. So far I really do enjoy coming around here and it's a truly great feeling to not have any real "responsibility" for people getting along like I kinda felt like I had at the first FF. I still feel like jumping in to mediate when tempers flare a bit (it's just a natural tendency I have) but knowing that our own guidelines prohibit me from doing so (except to voice our own opinions, and even that I try to avoid as much as possible) and that we have taken steps to ensure that each member has as much power to self-censor as possible gives me a genuinely good feeling.

[seebs]

I dunno, I have to say, I do really like the atmosphere here. It's mostly friendly and relaxed, without all the "don't talk about X" rules.

[Goliath]

Long, long ago I used to post on the Palladium message boards (Palladium is an RPG company), but I left after my interest in Rifts--their main RPG product--waned.

For a time, I was on the IIDB. At first, it was great: a place where atheists could let their hair down and empty both clips into any theist brave--or foolish--enough to stick around. However, the IIDB has changed...I guess I've let go my frustration and anger at the IIDB Board of Directors for changing the board's goals to finding common ground with theists, even though the very idea of finding common ground with theists strikes me as nothing short of complete and total batshit insanity.

As to why I came here...at first, I didn't really know. But I've found that I like the atmosphere here, and that I'm sick of the constant battling that I'm used to having to do at other message boards.

[seebs]

However, the IIDB has changed...I guess I've let go my frustration and anger at the IIDB Board of Directors for changing the board's goals to finding common ground with theists, even though the very idea of finding common ground with theists strikes me as nothing short of complete and total batshit insanity.

As to why I came here...at first, I didn't really know. But I've found that I like the atmosphere here, and that I'm sick of the constant battling that I'm used to having to do at other message boards.

Y'know, one of the advantages of common ground (wacky as it may seem) is freedom from constant battling. ;)

Seriously, I really like not feeling like I'm in a fight all the time. I enjoy being able to relax and talk to people about stuff we don't have to fight about; if that means I'm "finding common ground", well, so be it. :)

[pescifish]

I still feel like jumping in to mediate when tempers flare a bit I haven't seen many tempers flaring on this board except a couple of scuffles in the first week.

I'm not sure that's a good thing or not, but it certainly makes things seem more friendly. I kinda miss acting on my urges to call some folks on on their shit, but it just doesn't seem worth it anymore: we have all been around all those blocks already, no one is gonna change, really, are they?

I'm not suited to bulletin boards and really don't feel like I belong on any of them that have more than 10 users. But that's no different for me online as it is IRL: I just do not like groups of people. I really love individuals but there is something about how groups evolve over time, locking personalities and the social dynamics down, that causes me to want to slink off, unnoticed, into the darkness.

[viscousmemories]

I still feel like jumping in to mediate when tempers flare a bit I haven't seen many tempers flaring on this board except a couple of scuffles in the first week.
I guess that was a poor choice of words. It's not that I think there have been many significant blow-ups or anything, but people make comments from time to time that I'm fairly certain someone will find deeply offensive, and I get the urge to step in and try to neutralize it somehow. Not because I'm an admin but because it just personally makes me really uncomfortable when people fight.

I'm not sure that's a good thing or not, but it certainly makes things seem more friendly. I kinda miss acting on my urges to call some folks on on their shit, but it just doesn't seem worth it anymore: we have all been around all those blocks already, no one is gonna change, really, are they?
I'm not so sure friendly is sustainable or desirable, really. I guess I don't see how it's possible to learn and grow without having your beliefs and assumptions challenged, and IMHO most people hold on to what they believe (or disbelieve, as the case may be) pretty fiercely. So I imagine some will change with or without a fight, and some just won't no matter what. I change all the time, but usually not without a fight. Still I'm really a dramatically different person than I was when I joined IIDB.

I'm not suited to bulletin boards and really don't feel like I belong on any of them that have more than 10 users. But that's no different for me online as it is IRL: I just do not like groups of people. I really love individuals but there is something about how groups evolve over time, locking personalities and the social dynamics down, that causes me to want to slink off, unnoticed, into the darkness.
I know what you mean and I can relate, definitely. Still I'm holding on to hope that such social dynamics are repressible. Not that I have the slightest idea how to do it, but I keep wanting to believe it can be done. Honestly I don't know if anyone is really suited to bulletin boards. It's a pretty new and weird social universe. I've definitely enjoyed the contributions you've made to the various communities we've been a part of, if that helps you determine in any small way whether or not you belong.

[Goliath]

Y'know, one of the advantages of common ground (wacky as it may seem) is freedom from constant battling. ;)


Wrong, as I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have almost nothing in common, and with whom the conversations did not turn even slightly confrontational.


Seriously, I really like not feeling like I'm in a fight all the time. I enjoy being able to relax and talk to people about stuff we don't have to fight about; if that means I'm "finding common ground", well, so be it. :)

:? What does not battling have to do with finding common ground?

[viscousmemories]

:? What does not battling have to do with finding common ground?
I think the phrase "finding common ground" is generally interpreted as "focusing on those aspects of our humanity we have in common", and I think naturally when you're focused on commonalities battling is less likely to occur. You keep saying that you naturally have almost nothing in common with theists, but as I think I've said before that seems to be an irrational statement because the sole characteristic all theists have in common is a belief in God, and I don't see how having a single difference with someone can be described as "almost nothing in common".

[Goliath]

I think the phrase "finding common ground" is generally interpreted as "focusing on those aspects of our humanity we have in common",


I think I can more or less agree with this definition.


and I think naturally when you're focused on commonalities battling is less likely to occur.



Okay, finding common ground usually leads to a lack of battling....but why must a lack of battling tend to imply a finding of common ground? I guess that's what I'm confused about.



You keep saying that you naturally have almost nothing in common with theists, but as I think I've said before that seems to be an irrational statement because the sole characteristic all theists have in common is a belief in God, and I don't see how having a single difference with someone can be described as "almost nothing in common".

Actually, I've said that I have very little in common with them. For every possible conversational topic X, the theist believes that their god created X, whereas I do not. So, for everything that you can find in common between myself and a theist, I can find at least one thing that the theist and I do not have in common.

I'll certainly admit that I do have some things in common with the theists that I do associate with...my advisor, for instance, is a xian, and we have an interest in mathematics in common. And that's fine. However, there's a difference between happening to bump into a theist with which I have something in common and taking a random theist and probing to find every possible thing that he/she and I have in common.

[viscousmemories]

Okay, finding common ground usually leads to a lack of battling....but why must a lack of battling tend to imply a finding of common ground? I guess that's what I'm confused about.
Well I can't speak for seebs of course but I thought he was just saying he enjoys having a place where he can relax and discuss non-contentious subjects, and whether it's technically accurate to call it "finding common ground" isn't really important to him.

You keep saying that you naturally have almost nothing in common with theists, but as I think I've said before that seems to be an irrational statement because the sole characteristic all theists have in common is a belief in God, and I don't see how having a single difference with someone can be described as "almost nothing in common".
Actually, I've said that I have very little in common with them. For every possible conversational topic X, the theist believes that their god created X, whereas I do not. So, for everything that you can find in common between myself and a theist, I can find at least one thing that the theist and I do not have in common.
Perhaps you've said "very little" in the past, but since you have accused me before of trying to put words in your mouth I was very careful to use your exact words in this case, which were "almost nothing in common". And like I said before it doesn't make any more sense to me to say that for every thing you can find in common with a theist there is something you don't have in common because he/she believes God created it than it does to say that I have nothing in common with German's because for every thing we might have in common they use a German word to describe it.

I'll certainly admit that I do have some things in common with the theists that I do associate with...my advisor, for instance, is a xian, and we have an interest in mathematics in common. And that's fine. However, there's a difference between happening to bump into a theist with which I have something in common and taking a random theist and probing to find every possible thing that he/she and I have in common.
Well I never suggested talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality so I'm not sure what you're referring to. I was just saying it still doesn't make sense to me how you can conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion members of the same species based on a single criterion.

[Goliath]

Well I can't speak for seebs of course but I thought he was just saying he enjoys having a place where he can relax and discuss non-contentious subjects, and whether it's technically accurate to call it "finding common ground" isn't really important to him.


Then why would he have replied to my first post in this thread?


Perhaps you've said "very little" in the past, but since you have accused me before of trying to put words in your mouth I was very careful to use your exact words in this case, which were "almost nothing in common".


Okay, very well: almost nothing.


And like I said before it doesn't make any more sense to me to say that for every thing you can find in common with a theist there is something you don't have in common because he/she believes God created it than it does to say that I have nothing in common with German's because for every thing we might have in common they use a German word to describe it.


It should make far more sense because there's a vast difference between a language and a claim that a god created everything. If you cannot tell the difference between the two, then I'm not sure what to say...


Well I never suggested talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality so I'm not sure what you're referring to.


Well, the (new) topic is finding common ground with theists, and how batshit insane it seems to me.


I was just saying it still doesn't make sense to me how you can conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion members of the same species based on a single criterion.

Simple: because that single criterion creates a ton of differences.

[viscousmemories]

Well I can't speak for seebs of course but I thought he was just saying he enjoys having a place where he can relax and discuss non-contentious subjects, and whether it's technically accurate to call it "finding common ground" isn't really important to him.

Then why would he have replied to my first post in this thread?
Why wouldn't he?

And like I said before it doesn't make any more sense to me to say that for every thing you can find in common with a theist there is something you don't have in common because he/she believes God created it than it does to say that I have nothing in common with German's because for every thing we might have in common they use a German word to describe it.

It should make far more sense because there's a vast difference between a language and a claim that a god created everything. If you cannot tell the difference between the two, then I'm not sure what to say...
As an aside: Do you really think I can't tell the difference between a God who created everything and a language, or is it fair to assume you're being sarcastic? I think the latter, but my experience tells me that if I respond sarcastically back you'll get pissed off and accuse me of putting words in your mouth and not listening to you etc. So I have no choice, if I want to continue to have a civilized debate with you, but to just ignore the insult and respond as though you're sincere. I'll have you know that turning the other cheek isn't easy for me though, being an atheist and all.

Of course I was not suggesting that a language and a belief in God are the same thing. However I could just as easily say "I have almost nothing in common with German speaking people. As proof, note that for every one thing we have in common I can find one thing we don't have in common: They use a German word to describe it. Example: I love GameBoy. Fritz loves GameBoy too. So we have that in common. But, I call it GameBoy and he calls it SpielJunge. Therefore we have something not in common."

Of course that's a factual statement, but is it reasonable?

Well I never suggested talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Well, the (new) topic is finding common ground with theists, and how batshit insane it seems to me.
I'm talking about trying to find common ground with people (including theists) you interact with in on online forum. Not "talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality".

I was just saying it still doesn't make sense to me how you can conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion members of the same species based on a single criterion.
Simple: because that single criterion creates a ton of differences.
Just as there are a ton of differences between me and Fritz that spring from the fact that he speaks German and I speak English. That doesn't make it any less a single criterion, though. And I think that's an unreasonable standard by which to conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion other members of the same species, especially considering the fact that your being human means you have a million things in common by default.

[Goliath]

Why wouldn't he?

I don't know.


As an aside: Do you really think I can't tell the difference between a God who created everything and a language, or is it fair to assume you're being sarcastic? I think the latter,


No, it was the former. If I were being sarcastic, I would've made it more obvious, and since we're having a relatively serious discussion, it seemed logical that you wouldn't have made such a poor analogy if you did know the difference. I guess I was wrong about that.



So I have no choice, if I want to continue to have a civilized debate with you, but to just ignore the insult



Non-sequitor, as it wasn't an insult.



However I could just as easily say "I have almost nothing in common with German speaking people. As proof, note that for every one thing we have in common I can find one thing we don't have in common: They use a German word to describe it. Example: I love GameBoy. Fritz loves GameBoy too. So we have that in common. But, I call it GameBoy and he calls it SpielJunge. Therefore we have something not in common."

Of course that's a factual statement, but is it reasonable?



No. But then again, I'm differentiating a concept from the name of said concept. Why do you seem to be unable to do this?

I'm talking about trying to find common ground with people (including theists) you interact with in on online forum. Not "talking to random theists and probing for every possible commonality".


But practically any theist on the planet (with access to a computer that's hooked up to the internet) can access this forum. So I could end up conversing with practically any theist on the planet via this forum....and some people would suggest that I try to find common ground with them (if this were the IIDB, the BoD would be mandating it). I just don't know why that's a good idea.


And I think that's an unreasonable standard by which to conclude that you have almost nothing in common with a few billion other members of the same species, especially considering the fact that your being human means you have a million things in common by default.

Again, for every million things that you can find in common by default, I can find at least one million things not in common.

I'll grant you that I may have more in common with many theists than I realize.

But, then again, so what? I guess the difference between myself and a bunch of people on this board is that the previous paragraph would make other people want to jump up and find as many commonalities with themselves and theists as possible, whereas that's an ambition that I just don't share.

Before we derail this thread further: is there really a point in arguing over ambitions?

[viscousmemories]

As an aside: Do you really think I can't tell the difference between a God who created everything and a language, or is it fair to assume you're being sarcastic? I think the latter,
No, it was the former. If I were being sarcastic, I would've made it more obvious, and since we're having a relatively serious discussion, it seemed logical that you wouldn't have made such a poor analogy if you did know the difference. I guess I was wrong about that.
Ah, okay. Well if you think I'm too stupid to know the difference between an omnipotent God and a human language, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to explain myself.

[Goliath]

Ah, okay. Well if you think I'm too stupid to know the difference between an omnipotent God and a human language, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to explain myself.

In case you didn't notice, I did say that I was wrong about that.

I am glad that this thread tangent is over, though...I took some time to think about whether or not a response to the OP in this thread would be worth it...

Looks like I was wrong about that, too.

[beyelzu]

Long, long ago I used to post on the Palladium message boards (Palladium is an RPG company), but I left after my interest in Rifts--their main RPG product--waned. damn, I used to love playing rifts. It was such a good game.

For a time, I was on the IIDB. At first, it was great: a place where atheists could let their hair down and empty both clips into any theist brave--or foolish--enough to stick around. However, the IIDB has changed...I guess I've let go my frustration and anger at the IIDB Board of Directors for changing the board's goals to finding common ground with theists, even though the very idea of finding common ground with theists strikes me as nothing short of complete and total batshit insanity. I am not even sure that common ground is possible. I mean take seebs, he is all the time telling me I am going to burn in hell. Oh wait, I do ahve common ground with him. Seriously, I do think it is impossible to find common ground with someone like magus who really does think we are all going to burn in hell.

As to why I came here...at first, I didn't really know. But I've found that I like the atmosphere here, and that I'm sick of the constant battling that I'm used to having to do at other message boards.the atmosphere here does indeed rock.

[beyelzu]

I still feel like jumping in to mediate when tempers flare a bit I haven't seen many tempers flaring on this board except a couple of scuffles in the first week.

I'm not sure that's a good thing or not, but it certainly makes things seem more friendly. I kinda miss acting on my urges to call some folks on on their shit, but it just doesn't seem worth it anymore: we have all been around all those blocks already, no one is gonna change, really, are they?
speaking onely for myself. I have changed my mind on numberous issues even as I vehemently argued a point. I do read other's posts and evaluate the points they make.

[LadyShea]

Seriously, I do think it is impossible to find common ground with someone like magus who really does think we are all going to burn in hell.

I changed my view of Magus some time ago when I realized 1) He's just a baby, just turned 21 I think and 2) He is a new Christian and "on fire" 3) He sticks around through abuse that would have run me off long ago

I just wanted to say that because I kinda admire the kid even though I disagree with everything he says

[godfry n. glad]

Seriously, I do think it is impossible to find common ground with someone like magus who really does think we are all going to burn in hell.

I changed my view of Magus some time ago when I realized 1) He's just a baby, just turned 21 I think and 2) He is a new Christian and "on fire" 3) He sticks around through abuse that would have run me off long ago

I just wanted to say that because I kinda admire the kid even though I disagree with everything he says

So... You think he's there to earn martyr points?

godfry

[livius drusus]

I just wanted to say that because I kinda admire the kid even though I disagree with everything he says

I agree. As I've said many a time, I think Magus treats people far better than he gets treated, and I thought he was downright adorable in his birthday thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=89939).

[LadyShea]

So... You think he's there to earn martyr points?

godfry

No, I think he is there to present and defend his views plain and simple...of course I don't know his reasons for sure, that's just what I get from him.

[godfry n. glad]

Hmmmm....

I wonder....

I'll grant you that I may have more in common with many mathematicians than I realize.

But, then again, so what? I guess the difference between myself and a bunch of people on this board is that the previous paragraph would make other people want to jump up and find as many commonalities with themselves and mathematicians as possible, whereas that's an ambition that I just don't share.

Who cares what mathematicians think? <tongue firmly in cheek>

godfry

[Goliath]

damn, I used to love playing rifts. It was such a good game.

It was..in fact, the background idea for the game is, IMO, the best I've ever seen for any RPG. However, the game mechanics are....broken. As much as I hated to admit it for a number of years, the megadamage system really is screwed up. Not to mention that magic on Rifts Earth is a joke compared to technology.


Seriously, I do think it is impossible to find common ground with someone like magus who really does think we are all going to burn in hell.


Agreed. When I learned that he was younger than I was, it didn't make him seem adorable to me....only that much more pathetic.

And throughout my time posting at the IIDB, I never recalled seeing him take more abuse than he dished out.

the atmosphere here does indeed rock.

I'll drink to that! :friday: :D

[Goliath]

Hmmmm....

I wonder....

I'll grant you that I may have more in common with many mathematicians than I realize.

But, then again, so what? I guess the difference between myself and a bunch of people on this board is that the previous paragraph would make other people want to jump up and find as many commonalities with themselves and mathematicians as possible, whereas that's an ambition that I just don't share.

Who cares what mathematicians think? <tongue firmly in cheek>

godfry

If you honestly don't care what I think, then why bother writing the post that you wrote?

:?

You all are a good bunch of people, but sometimes you confuse the hell out of me...

[LadyShea]

Goliath, he quite clearly typed <tongue firmly in cheek>. Why confused?

[Dingfod]

If you honestly don't care what I think, then why bother writing the post that you wrote?

:?

You all are a good bunch of people, but sometimes you confuse the hell out of me...godfry was being facetious, not serious. Jeez, lighten up.

[livius drusus]

And throughout my time posting at the IIDB, I never recalled seeing him take more abuse than he dished out.

Well, you know you and I will never agree on this. I can't count the number of GRD threads I had to moderate because he was getting jumped, and it inevitably devolved into really personal, nasty shit. I never once saw him do the same thing back.

Anyhoo, I think we may be meandering a bit here, so I'll let the Magus go.

the atmosphere here does indeed rock.

I'll drink to that! :friday: :D

Now that's what really counts. :yup:

You all are a good bunch of people, but sometimes you confuse the hell out of me...

/me laughs out loud
I'll drink to that, too. :cheers:

[Goliath]

Goliath, he quite clearly typed <tongue firmly in cheek>. Why confused?

Well, primarily because it didn't seem that funny, and it was rather pointless when taken seriously.

[godfry n. glad]

Goliath, he quite clearly typed <tongue firmly in cheek>. Why confused?

Well, primarily because it didn't seem that funny, and it was rather pointless when taken seriously.

You really don't recognize the content? :blink:

godfry

[Goliath]

Well, you know you and I will never agree on this.


Probably true.


I can't count the number of GRD threads I had to moderate because he was getting jumped, and it inevitably devolved into really personal, nasty shit. I never once saw him do the same thing back.


Well, even in the height of my posting over there, I certainly didn't keep an eye on all of the threads, so that's definitely possible.


Now that's what really counts. :yup:

* livius drusus laughs out loud
I'll drink to that, too. :cheers:

Cool. :cool:

[Goliath]

You really don't recognize the content? :blink:


Of course I did. Before you distorted it, I wasn't trying to be funny, and I was merely expressing the fact that I didn't find it worth my time to find common ground with theists. My point for doing that was to get vm to realize that it's utterly fucking pointless to argue over someone's ambition--or lack thereof--to do something.

Now, if you weren't joking, then....what would your point be, exactly?

[beyelzu]

on the magus issue.


I have to agree that he has probably been amused far more than abusive at iidb.


the thing is, at the end of the day, biblical literalists think that I am going to burn in hell, that I deserve eternal damnation for what I believe. I find that to be a hell of a stumbling block.

and as much as I enjoy debating :fencing:

I find literalists frustrating for that very reason.


I guess, although I think Magus seems to be a pretty decent person, I find his views to be repugnant. even though I never saw him damn us atheists and agnostics, his beliefs, when taken to their logical conclusion, certainly do.



and to get it back on track a little, common ground might not be possible. but reasonable discourse and courtesy arent out of the question. I can give as good as I get but what I hope for this forum is that we can deal with xians with respect so long as they do the same.

that doesnt mean I wont tell some dipshit to fuck off when he or she is being offensive, but when the person you ae talking to remains civil, I think we all should as well.

and I think that freethoughtforum has a group of posters capable of this.

I seem to be meandering all over the place on this and in all honesty I just say whatever the fuck I want to anyway, which, hopefully, is one of my charms.


One last thought, both liv and ladyshea think well of magus, and even if I thought he was Satanspawn I would have to at least consider that I could be wrong, because I value their opinions and I have seen them go after dipshits so it's not like they are just warm and fuzzy peaceniks.

fuckin runon sentence, oh well I think this post is coherent.

[JoeP]

Goliath, he quite clearly typed <tongue firmly in cheek>. Why confused?
We even have a smilie for it: :kssmyass:

[beyelzu]

You really don't recognize the content? :blink:


Of course I did. Before you distorted it, I wasn't trying to be funny, and I was merely expressing the fact that I didn't find it worth my time to find common ground with theists. My point for doing that was to get vm to realize that it's utterly fucking pointless to argue over someone's ambition--or lack thereof--to do something.

Now, if you weren't joking, then....what would your point be, exactly?

I am sure godfry can defend himself,

but here goes.

he was jokingly making a point about make statements about billions of people on earth by bringing it home to you.


he could have just as easily quoted you and written making sweeping generalization is fallacious.

[beyelzu]

Goliath, he quite clearly typed <tongue firmly in cheek>. Why confused?
We even have a smilie for it: :kssmyass::haha:

[godfry n. glad]

You really don't recognize the content? :blink:


Of course I did. Before you distorted it, I wasn't trying to be funny, and I was merely expressing the fact that I didn't find it worth my time to find common ground with theists. My point for doing that was to get vm to realize that it's utterly fucking pointless to argue over someone's ambition--or lack thereof--to do something.

Now, if you weren't joking, then....what would your point be, exactly?

I was attempting to point out that your statement was, as I read it, that you didn't give a shit about anybody's opinions if they were theist. I think that's rather calloused and shortsighted.

Whether it's your ambition or not is not relevant to the discussion, so far as I'm concerned. I think you find common ground with theists all the time. Largely because you don't know they are theists. Just as many find common ground with you, despite their not being a mathematician.

It's not my ambition to find common ground with theists, either. Yet I do, regularly. And, I happen to think its a worthwhile way to spend a bit of time each day. The reason: because, in my experience, way too many theists assume that non-theists are unstable, demonical and somehow non- or sub-human. Finding a common ground with such people, befriending them on the basis of some kind of commonality and then revealing that you are a non-theist is an educational process for the theist that changes their perceptions of non-theists to a more benign one. There is also the outside possibility that such could benefit other non-theists at some indeterminate point in the future.

I understand your reluctance to engage with theists over issues of religion and spirituality, but to refuse to engage in simple conversation with someone about any other topic under the sun because you disagree over their metaphysics... well, if you want, that's your choice, I guess. But, to me, it sounds like willful intellectual and social impoverishment.

That's how I read it. That's why I responded as I did. I thought I'd like to see how you responded to your own rhetoric when you were the target.

It was not meant to be "funny", but it was tongue in cheek.

Just an experiment.

godfry

[LadyShea]

so it's not like they are just warm and fuzzy peaceniks.

I am fucking warm, and fucking fuzzy, and I'll kick your ass if you say otherwise again. :heh:

[beyelzu]

so it's not like they are just warm and fuzzy peaceniks.

I am fucking warm, and fucking fuzzy, and I'll kick your ass if you say otherwise again. :heh:
what the hell was I thinking suggesting otherwise :beaugest:

[Goliath]

he could have just as easily quoted you and written making sweeping generalization is fallacious.

He could have....but I wasn't making a sweeping generalization.

Again: I am only stating that I do not have the ambition to find common ground with theists. That's it. I'm not making a statement of the form "All theists do X" or "All theists believe Y".

The idea that a statement about my own lack of ambition to not do a certain thing is a sweeping generalization about an entire group of people is...well, fucking ridiculous. :1thumbdown:

[Goliath]

I was attempting to point out that your statement was, as I read it, that you didn't give a shit about anybody's opinions if they were theist.


No. I'm not saying that I don't give a shit about anyone's opinions of they are a theist. There are many theists whose opinions I do give a shit about.

What I am saying is that I lack ambition to find common ground with theists in general.

How did you misread that? I may as well be saying "Yesterday, Soupy Sales and I bought a toaster to use as an engine component in our hotdog mobile, which is shaped like Mickey Mouse's penis. Afterwards, we ripped out the upholstery in the penis-mobile to make a magical flying carpet, which we then used to fly to the clouds to make cotton candy and live amongst the stars forever." :wall:



Whether it's your ambition or not is not relevant to the discussion,



It is, in that it's what I'm talking about, as opposed to what I'm not talking about.



I think you find common ground with theists all the time.



With some of them, yes. With theists as a group? I don't think so, no.



It's not my ambition to find common ground with theists, either.



Yet you're not being accused of making sweeping generalizations.


I understand your reluctance to engage with theists over issues of religion and spirituality, but to refuse to engage in simple conversation with someone about any other topic under the sun because you disagree over their metaphysics...



You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said that I don't want to talk to theists because they're theists. I have no problems talking to theists. However, I see little need to try to probe to find common ground.

[Goliath]

We even have a smilie for it: :kssmyass:

LOL! :D

[livius drusus]

Not fair, Goliath.

[Goliath]

Not fair, Goliath.

You're right. I apologize for the "Royalty" comment, and edited it out.

However, I do find it odd that godfry and I both don't aspire to find common ground with theists, yet I'm clearly the one being ganged up on here.

Oh well, nothing new for me in happening to do the same thing as someone else, but getting unfairly lambasted for it...

[godfry n. glad]

Well, Goliath, that seals it... I have no ambition to find common ground with you.

So be it.

godfry

FF royalty? Did I miss a coronation somewhere?

[Goliath]

Well, Goliath, that seals it... I have no ambition to find common ground with you.

So be it.



Indeed. So be it. :shrug:



FF royalty? Did I miss a coronation somewhere?

Perhaps you also missed my editing it out and apologizing for it?

[JoeP]

so it's not like they are just warm and fuzzy peaceniks.

I am fucking warm, and fucking fuzzy, and I'll kick your ass if you say otherwise again. :heh:
Post proof or retract. You clearly state that you're not fuzzy. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1819038#post1819038)

[godfry n. glad]

so it's not like they are just warm and fuzzy peaceniks.

I am fucking warm, and fucking fuzzy, and I'll kick your ass if you say otherwise again. :heh:
Post proof or retract. You clearly state that you're not fuzzy. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1819038#post1819038)

Joe...

I can't read the link (banned forever and forever, amen), but do I detect the claim that LadyShea has contradicted herself?

If so, I'll back your demand. I wanna see the fuzzy/not fuzzy.

godfry

(psssst....I am fuzzy. And warm, too! And I'll file charges of animal abuse if anybody kicks my ass!)

[viscousmemories]

Oh well, nothing new for me in happening to do the same thing as someone else, but getting unfairly lambasted for it...
I don't know if you're talking about me or not, but frankly I don't see the similarity you seem to see between your and godfry's positions. He has not dismissed the possibility of having much in common with a majority of the population of the world a priori because they are theists, whereas it seems to me that you have. So neither of you makes a point of seeking common ground with theists. Only one of you has pre-emptively discounted the possibility. That to me is the issue, not whether or not it's your life's goal to befriend theists.

[Goliath]

I don't know if you're talking about me or not,


Actually, I was referring to godfry in this specific instance, but the situation of someone else doing the same thing as I, but me being unfairly lambasted for it has happened to me many, many times before.



He has not dismissed the possibility of having much in common with a majority of the population of the world a priori because they are theists, whereas it seems to me that you have.



Wrong yet again.

I really don't know what the fuck is going on with respect to these constant misreadings. Are the words that I've typed coming across on your monitor in English? I honestly am beginning to wonder if there is some kind of evil gibberish gnome that has hacked into the board, translating my posts into complete gibberish for the transfer to everyone else's computers...

I have admitted many times that it's possible to find common ground with theists.

Here, I'll say it again: It's possible to find common ground with theists. I do not have enough evidence to suggest that such an act is impossible.

It's just a possibility for which I don't feel the necessity to explore. Frankly, your continued attacks against me on this matter make about as much sense as flaming someone for wanting to drink Coke instead of Pepsi, or for wanting to drive Fords instead of Buicks.

Okay, so you think it's great to find common ground with theists. I see that such common ground might exist, but don't feel like pursuing it. Could you please just deal with it, and let this spat go?

[viscousmemories]

Actually, I was referring to godfry in this specific instance, but the situation of someone else doing the same thing as I, but me being unfairly lambasted for it has happened to me many, many times before.
Okay.

He has not dismissed the possibility of having much in common with a majority of the population of the world a priori because they are theists, whereas it seems to me that you have.
Wrong yet again.

I really don't know what the fuck is going on with respect to these constant misreadings. Are the words that I've typed coming across on your monitor in English? I honestly am beginning to wonder if there is some kind of evil gibberish gnome that has hacked into the board, translating my posts into complete gibberish for the transfer to everyone else's computers...

I have admitted many times that it's possible to find common ground with theists.

Here, I'll say it again: It's possible to find common ground with theists. I do not have enough evidence to suggest that such an act is impossible.
You can yell and scream at me all you want, but that's not going to change the fact that I didn't misread you or misrepresent what you said. Read what I said again. I said (bold added) "dismissed the possibility of having much in common". Your exact words earlier were "almost nothing in common". How is that a misrepresentation of your position?

It's just a possibility for which I don't feel the necessity to explore. Frankly, your continued attacks against me on this matter make about as much sense as flaming someone for wanting to drink Coke instead of Pepsi, or for wanting to drive Fords instead of Buicks.
I am not attacking you. You are the one who is peppering your responses with bold print and sarcasm. I am the one who is being calm, rational and polite to you and getting nothing close to that in return.

Okay, so you think it's great to find common ground with theists. I see that such common ground might exist, but don't feel like pursuing it. Could you please just deal with it, and let this spat go?
I'm dealing with things just fine, thanks. You are the one who's being unreasonable here. And no amount of screaming and stamping your feet at me is going to change that. I haven't made any attempt to attack, mischaracterize or otherwise assault you, and I think that's obvious to anyone who reads this thread. That you feel I have is your problem, not mine.

[Goliath]

You can yell and scream at me all you want,

Actually, I'm not yelling and screaming. I would've used all caps to indicate yelling and screaming.

I've forgotten that you misconstrue bold font as screaming, though. I apologize, and I'll try to remember to stop using it in responses to you.



Read what I said again. I said (bold added) "dismissed the possibility of having much in common". Your exact words earlier were "almost nothing in common". How is that a misrepresentation of your position?



Because I've said that I seem to have almost nothing in common with them. I've also said that I really don't have the ambition to find out if I do have a lot in common with them.

Why can't you deal with that?



I am not attacking you.



Hardly! You seem to be twisting my words around to the end of what seems to be an attempt at character assassination.

Also, with practically every post you've made since this spat started, you've been throwing a temper tantrum, trying to demand that I not have the preferences that I have regarding the want to find common ground with theists.

Again, I really don't have the ambition to find common ground with them. When are you going to learn to live with that?



I am the one who is being calm, rational and polite to you


Then why haven't I perceived it, and why have I perceived such behavior from almost everyone else in this board, except you?



I'm dealing with things just fine, thanks.



Good. Then you can deal with the fact that I don't have the ambition to find common ground with theists and put this topic to rest, yes?

[Goliath]

Now, I have to finish putting together a homework assignment and do some grading, so I'm going to leave this kindergarten spat be for now. I'll look things over tomorrow, and unless you have something new to say, vm ("I accept and realize that you don't have the ambition to find common ground with theists" would be something new <hint, hint> :) ), then I doubt that I'll bother to reply.

[Goliath]

Oops, missed this post:

what I hope for this forum is that we can deal with xians with respect so long as they do the same. that doesnt mean I wont tell some dipshit to fuck off when he or she is being offensive, but when the person you ae talking to remains civil, I think we all should as well.


Agreed.

[viscousmemories]

You can yell and scream at me all you want, Actually, I'm not yelling and screaming. I would've used all caps to indicate yelling and screaming.

I've forgotten that you misconstrue bold font as screaming, though. I apologize, and I'll try to remember to stop using it in responses to you.
Fair enough, I apologize for the misinterpretation then.

Read what I said again. I said (bold added) "dismissed the possibility of having much in common". Your exact words earlier were "almost nothing in common". How is that a misrepresentation of your position?
Because I've said that I seem to have almost nothing in common with them. I've also said that I really don't have the ambition to find out if I do have a lot in common with them.

Why can't you deal with that?
So I said it seems to me that you have a priori dismissed the possibility of having much in common with theists, and you have affirmed that again just now. In other words I didn't misrepresent you at all.

I am not attacking you.
Hardly! You seem to be twisting my words around to the end of what seems to be an attempt at character assassination.

Also, with practically every post you've made since this spat started, you've been throwing a temper tantrum, trying to demand that I not have the preferences that I have regarding the want to find common ground with theists.

Again, I really don't have the ambition to find common ground with them. When are you going to learn to live with that?
I haven't twisted your words at all, as I have repeatedly pointed out. If you want to continue accusing me of doing so then find a quote where I claimed you said something that contradicts your position.

I am the one who is being calm, rational and polite to you.
Then why haven't I perceived it, and why have I perceived such behavior from almost everyone else in this board, except you?
Are you honestly asking me to psychoanalyze you? I have no idea why you think I'm attacking you when I'm not, and obviously no amount of my saying otherwise registers with you. What more do you want me to say?

I'm dealing with things just fine, thanks.

Good. Then you can deal with the fact that I don't have the ambition to find common ground with theists and put this topic to rest, yes?
No. As long as you keep making generalized statements about theists I will continue to call you on it. Just like I would if someone was in here repeatedly making generalized statements about any other group of people. Good luck if you think I'm just going to look the other way from comments that I find morally reprehensible.

Oh and despite your condescension about kindergarten spats, I will gladly state that I accept and realize that you don't have any ambition to find common ground with theists, since you asked. Of course that has nothing to do with the discussion I've been attempting to have with you, but there it is. Now maybe you can explain how that statement doesn't imply a sweeping generalization about all theists, which is in fact what I've been talking about all along.

[Goliath]

Fair enough, I apologize for the misinterpretation then.

No problem.

So I said it seems to me that you have a priori dismissed the possibility of having much in common with theists,


You are, again, wrong. I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.

Again, I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.



In other words I didn't misrepresent you at all.



You have done so in every post of yours in this thread, and you continue to do so. Are you doing this on purpose? I hope not.

If you want to continue accusing me of doing so then find a quote where I claimed you said something that contradicts your position.


See above.

I have no idea why you think I'm attacking you when I'm not,


If you're not attacking me, then why is it that I was able to have a relatively civil conversation with godfry about this topic, but not you?

In case you hadn't noticed, the person that I'm trying to scrutinize here isn't me.



No. As long as you keep making generalized statements about theists I will continue to call you on it.



Then it's settled. Each and every single time you misrepresent my words (which, incidentally has been most of our interaction on this board), I will call you on it.



Good luck if you think I'm just going to look the other way from comments that I find morally reprehensible.



And good luck if you think I'm going to let you succeed at your pathetic attempts at character assassination. I like a lot of the people on this board, and I'll be damned if I'll let you dress up some strawmen to look like me to them.



I will gladly state that I accept and realize that you don't have any ambition to find common ground with theists, since you asked.



Thank you.



Of course that has nothing to do with the discussion I've been attempting to have with you,



No, it has nothing to do with the discussion that you're having with yourself (i.e. you vs. your twisting of my words). It has everything to do with the topic in the OP, however.

[viscousmemories]

So I said it seems to me that you have a priori dismissed the possibility of having much in common with theists,
You are, again, wrong. I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.

Again, I have not dismissed such a possibility. I fully admit that such a possibility exists. I just do not feel the ambition to explore it.

Goliath, this all started with this comment of yours to seebs:

Wrong, as I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have almost nothing in common, and with whom the conversations did not turn even slightly confrontational.
Are you denying that saying you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]" is a priori dismissing the possibility of having much in common with theists, or has your position changed since you wrote that?

In other words I didn't misrepresent you at all.
You have done so in every post of yours in this thread, and you continue to do so. Are you doing this on purpose? I hope not.
Repeating the accusation doesn't make it true. Again, quote me where I claimed you said something that contradicts your actual position or admit that I have not once misrepresented you.

If you want to continue accusing me of doing so then find a quote where I claimed you said something that contradicts your position.
See above.
Ditto.

I have no idea why you think I'm attacking you when I'm not,If you're not attacking me, then why is it that I was able to have a relatively civil conversation with godfry about this topic, but not you?
godfry very quickly gave up trying to argue with you out of apparent frustration. Do you seriously count that as a successful dialogue?

In case you hadn't noticed, the person that I'm trying to scrutinize here isn't me.
Maybe you should ask yourself why that is.

No. As long as you keep making generalized statements about theists I will continue to call you on it.

Then it's settled. Each and every single time you misrepresent my words (which, incidentally has been most of our interaction on this board), I will call you on it.
Fair enough. Feel free to start right now by quoting me where I've done that.

Good luck if you think I'm just going to look the other way from comments that I find morally reprehensible.
And good luck if you think I'm going to let you succeed at your pathetic attempts at character assassination. I like a lot of the people on this board, and I'll be damned if I'll let you dress up some strawmen to look like me to them.
Once again I have no idea why you think I'm attacking you when I'm not, but until you can quote me where I misrepresented something you've said your reiteration of the accusation is as inaccurate as ever.

I will gladly state that I accept and realize that you don't have any ambition to find common ground with theists, since you asked.
Thank you.
Don't bother to thank me. The question was a red herring and irrelevant to the discussion, so my answering it was no victory for either of us. I just wanted to get it out of the way in case a real discussion might be possible.

Of course that has nothing to do with the discussion I've been attempting to have with you,

No, it has nothing to do with the discussion that you're having with yourself (i.e. you vs. your twisting of my words). It has everything to do with the topic in the OP, however.
I apologize for my cold and condescending tone yesterday and probably in part today. I find talking to you extremely frustrating because your presumption that I am trying to assassinate your character IMO colors all of our interactions. Since I have a hot temper my responses when I'm angry are typically either very vicious or very cold and calculated. I don't really like indulging either, but the latter does seem preferable so I usually go with it.

Anyway I am not going to continue beyond this point. I have said everything I want to say on the subject and I hold very little hope that you and I will ever have a substantive discussion, so I won't keep picking at the wound. Unless and until you are willing to take what I say at face value without assuming that I have it in for you it's pointless for me to keep trying.

[Goliath]

Are you denying that saying you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]" is a priori dismissing the possibility of having much in common with theists, or has your position changed since you wrote that?


Again, you misread what I say. I said that I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have nothing in common.

Look at that "with whom" (the italicized font is for emphasis only, so please don't go foaming at the mouth about me screaming at you). The "with whom" indicates that it is the set of those particular theists that I have conversed with that I have almost nothing in common with. Note that I have said literally nothing in that quote about theists that I have not conversed with.

This is the nth time (for some really big n) that you have mischaracterized what I've said. Are you ready to own up to it, now, or will you stay in denial?


Repeating the accusation doesn't make it true. Again, quote me where I claimed you said something that contradicts your actual position

I have done little else in this thread. Look at my reply to your first quoted block in this post.



godfry very quickly gave up trying to argue with you out of apparent frustration. Do you seriously count that as a successful dialogue?



There you go again, mischaracterizing what I said. I mentioned nothing about the dialogue between godfry and I being "successful." In fact, I'd wager that if you looked through the text of this thread, the only places that you'd find "succesful" would be in your post that I'm replying to, and in this reply (in reference to your twisting of my words).

I said nothing about the dialogue with godfry being successful. I said that it was relatively civil compared to the arguing between you and I.

Please, do us both a favor, and just read what's there: no more, no less.

Maybe you should ask yourself why that is.

Ummm.....because I want to figure out why you seem to perceive that you're being polite to me and not attacking me, when the opposite is the case.



Fair enough. Feel free to start right now by quoting me where I've done that.



I've done so twice in this post already.

I apologize for my cold and condescending tone yesterday and probably in part today.


Apology accepted.



I find talking to you extremely frustrating because your presumption that I am trying to assassinate your character IMO colors all of our interactions.



Well, I wish it were only a perception...but it also happens to be true.



Unless and until you are willing to take what I say at face value



I haven't done--and strive never to do--otherwise.

[viscousmemories]

Are you denying that saying you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]" is a priori dismissing the possibility of having much in common with theists, or has your position changed since you wrote that?

Again, you misread what I say. I said that I have been able to converse with theists with whom I (naturally) have nothing in common.

Look at that "with whom" (the italicized font is for emphasis only, so please don't go foaming at the mouth about me screaming at you). The "with whom" indicates that it is the set of those particular theists that I have conversed with that I have almost nothing in common with. Note that I have said literally nothing in that quote about theists that I have not conversed with.

This is the nth time (for some really big n) that you have mischaracterized what I've said. Are you ready to own up to it, now, or will you stay in denial?
So when you said you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]", what did you mean by "naturally"? You "naturally" have nothing in common with theists you converse with? Why? What quality do all theists that you converse with have that makes it natural that you would have almost nothing in common with them?

Repeating the accusation doesn't make it true. Again, quote me where I claimed you said something that contradicts your actual position

I have done little else in this thread. Look at my reply to your first quoted block in this post.
I disagree that you have done so at all, but perhaps when you answer my question above it will become more obvious how you think you have.

godfry very quickly gave up trying to argue with you out of apparent frustration. Do you seriously count that as a successful dialogue?
There you go again, mischaracterizing what I said. I mentioned nothing about the dialogue between godfry and I being "successful." In fact, I'd wager that if you looked through the text of this thread, the only places that you'd find "succesful" would be in your post that I'm replying to, and in this reply (in reference to your twisting of my words).

I said nothing about the dialogue with godfry being successful. I said that it was relatively civil compared to the arguing between you and I.

Please, do us both a favor, and just read what's there: no more, no less.
You are nitpicking about my choice of words instead of addressing the substance of my comments, again and again and again. To me it is absolutely meaningless to say you had a civil dialogue with someone when in fact that person opted not to dialogue with you at all. Hence I view your claim that your unsuccessful dialogue was an example of a civil dialogue as erroneous, but the fact that I worded it differently doesn't detract from the point.

Maybe you should ask yourself why that is.
Ummm.....because I want to figure out why you seem to perceive that you're being polite to me and not attacking me, when the opposite is the case.

For you to say the opposite is the case you'd have to be able to read my mind. I'm sorry but I don't believe that you have that ability.

Fair enough. Feel free to start right now by quoting me where I've done that.
I've done so twice in this post already.
I disagree, as explained above.

I find talking to you extremely frustrating because your presumption that I am trying to assassinate your character IMO colors all of our interactions.
Well, I wish it were only a perception...but it also happens to be true.
Again, unless you can read my mind I disagree that you can say so.

Unless and until you are willing to take what I say at face value
I haven't done--and strive never to do--otherwise.
That isn't how it appears to me.

[Goliath]

So when you said you "(naturally) have almost nothing in common [with theists]", what did you mean by "naturally"?


By "naturally", I meant that I didn't have that much in common with them because I knew that I had very little in common with them. "Them" being the particular theists that I mentioned having conversed with.



You are nitpicking about my choice of words instead of addressing the substance of my comments, again and again and again.



No, I am reading what's there rather than reading anything into it.

And I don't find your comments to have that much substance, as the erecting of strawmen rarely has anything to do with substance.



To me it is absolutely meaningless to say you had a civil dialogue with someone when in fact that person opted not to dialogue with you at all.



And there you go again. I didn't say "civil." I didn't say "nuclear-powered toothbrush." I didn't say "toaster oven big enough to crush the Earth." And I didn't say "my cell phone is ringing." I said relatively civil.



For you to say the opposite is the case you'd have to be able to read my mind. I'm sorry but I don't believe that you have that ability.



Okay, I'll concede that point. I sincerely apologize for acting as though I could read your mind. Seebs has infurated me by doing that to me repeatedly in the past, so it was wrong to do it to you.

[Cool Hand]

Well, I'm arriving at the party in this thread a bit late, but what the fuck, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

First, I agree with Ceptimus about the point at which one starts to feel like part of the community. I'm not quite there yet, as I haven't interacted with enough of the posters here to know who's who and what they're all about.

Although I joined by accepting a gracious invitation on 7-15-04, I have mostly lurked, but not much, and wasted a hell of a lot of time playing Asteroids. I held the high score there twice, but that rat bastard Blake has taken it away from me just a day later both times. :D

Anyway, I took a look at the member list here just now, and I recognize exactly 12 other posters from 3 other forums of which I have been an active member. I just left one, and rarely post at another that I left due to my disgust with the heavy-handed and very proactive moderation for content, after having been promised at least 6 times by a former administrator that the site would never by moderated for content.

Now I am a member at two forums (including this one), both of which are firmly dedicated to having exactly zero moderators (Yay! What a concept!), and from what I have read here, I suspect this will become my new internet forum home. I am very favorably impressed with the atmosphere and the extremely bright, witty, and learned posters here. This also happens to be the most well-thought out, fully decked out, and loaded-with-cool-features forum I have ever seen.

In short, I like it here. I look forward to getting to know more of the other posters and to having some great discussions with them.

Thanks again liv and VM, for setting up a terrific place, and for inviting me over here.

Cool Hand

[livius drusus]

Well, I'm arriving at the party in this thread a bit late, but what the fuck, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

And Ah Pook (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3296&postcount=12) bless you for it.

First, I agree with Ceptimus about the point at which one starts to feel like part of the community. I'm not quite there yet, as I haven't interacted with enough of the posters here to know who's who and what they're all about.

That raises an interesting (if slightly tangential - sorry) point for me: what about people who read a great deal and have a pretty clear idea of who's who but have never posted? Do they feel at home in their own way, or is there some undercurrent of discomfort which keeps them quiet despite their sometimes superior knowledge of all the talkers?

Although I joined by accepting a gracious invitation on 7-15-04, I have mostly lurked, but not much, and wasted a hell of a lot of time playing Asteroids. I held the high score there twice, but that rat bastard Blake has taken it away from me just a day later both times. :D

He he... You and Farren should start a support group, only I don't think you really want to snuggle up to that title hog.

In all seriousness though, vm and I decided to install the Arcade to give FF a homey, light-hearted aspect beyond quip exchanges. Not to indulge in excessive truisms, but playing is fun! I think it gives people a place to be (and even a platform for speech in the form of comments) even when they don't feel comfortable posting on the board.

Anyway, I took a look at the member list here just now, and I recognize exactly 12 other posters from 3 other forums of which I have been an active member.

Hey that's like 10 percent of the membership, man. :D

I just left one, and rarely post at another that I left due to my disgust with the heavy-handed and very proactive moderation for content, after having been promised at least 6 times by a former administrator that the site would never by moderated for content.

You know, I seriously think so many of JREF's problems come from poor organization. They didn't think ahead and had no idea that a little feedback forum could turn into a mini-society. Needless to say, I think sticking your head in the sand and half-assing it leaves a lot to be desired, and JREF is a spectacularly chaotic example of that.

Now I am a member at two forums (including this one), both of which are firmly dedicated to having exactly zero moderators (Yay! What a concept!), and from what I have read here, I suspect this will become my new internet forum home. I am very favorably impressed with the atmosphere and the extremely bright, witty, and learned posters here.

That kicks ass, Cool Hand. I agree that we've got an amazingly great group of people here and that definitely includes you.

This also happens to be the most well-thought out, fully decked out, and loaded-with-cool-features forum I have ever seen.

And this from a man who doesn't use smilies. ;) Thank you. I admit that I'm so used to FF that I'm constantly reaching for non-existent features on other vB boards.

In short, I like it here. I look forward to getting to know more of the other posters and to having some great discussions with them.

Thanks again liv and VM, for setting up a terrific place, and for inviting me over here.

Thank you for being here.

[Adora]

tl;dr

My common ground for reading above shitfights is for shitfights to actually be interesting and about something worthwhile.

¬_¬ It's like the boring IIDB shit that started this little wank session has overflowed into this forum.

[pescifish]

tl;dr
:qhuh:
:huh?:

[LadyXoc]

Shitfights or no shitfights, I feel surprisingly at home given how short a time I've been here.

[livius drusus]

I'm very seriously happy to hear that. Shitfights, much like shit itself, happen. What counts is that they remain localized instead of tainting other threads/forums and the wider relationships between people. A little perspective is all I ask.

Of course, I may change that tune the minute the first Nazi shows up here. It depends on whether I think he's just a deluded, ignorant fuck or a malicious, lying sack of shit fuck.

Oh, and I've been meaning to tell you LadyXoc: I'm really glad you chose that avatar. I think it's just perfect for you. :)

[godfry n. glad]

I'm very seriously happy to hear that. Shitfights, much like shit itself, happen. What counts is that they remain localized instead of tainting other threads/forums and the wider relationships between people. A little perspective is all I ask.

I think it's a matter of knowing when to "hold 'em" and when "fold 'em". Often the "winner" is the one who walks away first. Remember Phyrrus.

Of course, I may change that tune the minute the first Nazi shows up here. It depends on whether I think he's just a deluded, ignorant fuck or a malicious, lying sack of shit fuck.

I wondered if you had considered that eventuality. Those are some downright foul memes, alright. There is the option of placing a fellow poster on ignore, isn't there? That's probably what I'd do. Consider the results if everybody followed suit. Wouldn't that isolate the interloper? Or, at least minimize...