Words You Hate

[livius drusus]

uvula/tubular/vulva
hottie

[viscousmemories]

smegma, mucus, larva :puke:

[dave_a]

hmmm... I rather like the word 'vulva' in fact I don't know what could be used to replace it.

For me I hate pretty much any word with an s on the end which ought not have an s. Most frequently I hear store names mentioned this way: Where have you been? Walmarts. Where did you get that at? Kmarts.

Then there is the mispronouced words that nobody has any excuse for mispronouncing like valentimes day.

Of course pretty much any ghetto slang terms instantly turn me off, but there are exceptions such as when a normal word like bitch takes on several new meanings. Those can be fun to play with. I mean how many different definitions for the word bitch are there?

Anyone remember that routine (denis leary perhaps?) on the usage of the word fuck? I think bitch has a lot more going for it personally.

[Ymir's blood]

hottie
Oh, ye devils, that one is annoying as crap.

A word I don't like the sound of: loaf.

[Corona688]

"lag"

As in,

* shaun screams, "laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag"

Sweet mother of nobody, online chat couldn't be more annoying if people were actively trying. And no, it's nobody you know, unless there's a shaun here who knows they did that. In which case shame on you. You bastard. :P

[Scotty]

Gant Chart (of which Chart always followed Gant, even though I never knew what it meant, but management loved them).

It's too big. Oh wait, I think I am getting into phrases I don't like.

Plus...just...for...Liv...


-Scott

[livius drusus]

hmmm... I rather like the word 'vulva' in fact I don't know what could be used to replace it.

Cunt works for me. All those u/v/a words sound creepy to my ear. I'd far rather go anglo-saxon.

That may be the reason I'm totally with vm when it comes to the word "larva". It has no u, but it's still nasty.

loaf

That's interesting. Now that I think of it, I'm no great fan of the one vowel-final f combo. I don't like "oof" either.

"lag"

Is it the word itself that bothers you, or just its lamer, elongated usage in chatrooms?

... ... ... ... ...

Now, see, that's just abusive.

[Corona688]

"lag"Is it the word itself that bothers you, or just its lamer, elongated usage in chatrooms? The whole word has been tarnished in my mind.

[Lauri D]

pus.

(where's that barfing smilie....)

[livius drusus]

:vomit: :puke: And I'm right behind you.

[wildernesse]

orthogonal

I hate this word. even more now that I know what it means. Not that its meaning bad.

[Adora]

moist
dentist
vulgar
vagina. It's just one of the worst words ever. Even "horny happy love-hole" is better than vagina.

[Scotty]

I guess you don't want a copy of "The Vagina Monologues" then?

-Scott

[dave_a]

so moist vagina and vulva are out, but dripping wet cunt and horny happy love-hole are in.

I will never understand women as long as I live.

Something tells me I better not try out this new vocabulary with the women at the office.

[livius drusus]

I'm not so sure about dripping. Maybe sloppy or soaking would go over better at the office.

[Ex-zombie]

Scrotum. :gatlin:

Come on, who thought that one up?

[livius drusus]

Yeah that is annoying, but scrote is hilarious. I just about peed my panties every time the dude on The Wonder Years called his brother that.

[squian]

phlegm - It looks and sounds ugly. Just like what it represents.

[lisarea]

Trousers, slacks, blouse, profanity, brassiere.

Also panties, except when it refers to gentlemen's delicates, as in when I wave a package of boxers and holler across a store, "HEY, LITTLE MUFFIN!!!! DO YOU NEED NEW PANTIES?!?!?"

[Roland98]

panties

AMEN! I hate that word. Not a big fan of "cunt" either. And I get to say "vaginal" and "rectal" all day long, since that's where a lot of our bacterial isolates come from. It's real fun when you get to give whole presentations on it. Like, say, in a job talk for a professorship. :)

[godfry n. glad]

so moist vagina and vulva are out, but dripping wet cunt and horny happy love-hole are in.

I will never understand women as long as I live.

Something tells me I better not try out this new vocabulary with the women at the office.

Hear, hear!

No, don't....the last discussion on this ended up with all the women stating they hated the word "cunt" and wouldn't use it unless it were used conciously to be abusive to another woman. I guess I still don't know.

I agree that vagina is a funny word, after all, it sounds like a city in Saskatchewan. People are awkward about referring to it and tend to say, "that place right down the road from Moosejaw, eh."

As for vulva...well...a significunt portion of the population out there thinks it's a Swedish car with a good reputation for safety. I worked in a library as a teenager and had a middle-aged lady come in and ask if we had the latest _Consumer Reports_ with the article on the new Vulva. Heck, it made my day and the library staff had a good laugh after she left.

I think penis is a funny word, too. P words have a funniness, I think. I still like the old aphorism: The penis mightier than the sword. I think this is another reason there are so many alternate references and pet names for this appendage.

For me neoplasm, malignant and chemotherapy are some of the ugliest I know.

I've also come to suspect "hope" as insincere.

"Fescue" is odd.

godfry

[viscousmemories]

I've never liked the word vagina either. Of course now when I hear it I think of Alotta Fagina from Austin Powers.

As for vulva...well...a significunt portion of the population out there thinks it's a Swedish car with a good reputation for safety. I worked in a library as a teenager and had a middle-aged lady come in and ask if we had the latest _Consumer Reports_ with the article on the new Vulva. Heck, it made my day and the library staff had a good laugh after she left.
:roflmao:

[godfry n. glad]

...and I hate it when somebody pronounces the word "ask" as "ax".

Causal conversation seems to include blase' mention of attacking somebody with a sharp and deadly weapon.

C'mon...an ax is a cutting tool, for cryin' out loud! :shakefist:

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We now return you to your regular programming....

godfry

[Adora]

so moist vagina and vulva are out, but dripping wet cunt and horny happy love-hole are in.

I prefer "glistening" wet cunt, but that's just me and my artistic bent and the fact that being dripping isn't exactly the best thing for good sex (if there's not even a bit of friction, why bother?).

I'm kind of indifferent about "cunt" actually. It's a good word to use, but I'm not either way about it.

Oh, yes yes fuck yes on the "panties" thing. I have never heard that word until my mother mentioned something about it in a Mills & Boons she was reading once. I think I was about 14 and I just pissed myself laughing.

Then again, Yanks laugh at me when I call them "knickers", even though it's a bloody good word.

Oh, I hate the word Lard. It's exactly like it sounds and what it refers to.

[Ronin]

Burglariously and telephony.

What utterly idiotic words.

Utterly...utterly is another one.

Utterly, utterly, utterly.

Utterly.

[SharonDee]

preternatural

[Sweetie]

hate the word "cunt", vagina or pussy are fine, twat is pushing it but it's not as derogatory or sharp as the word "cunt"

[RevDahlia]

Aw, I like "cunt". It's actually an ancient and venerable word which has only acquired taboo connotations recently.

Words I hate? "Moist". HAAATE. It's so gross. I have no idea why it squicks me so, but it does.

[livius drusus]

Aw, I like "cunt". It's actually an ancient and venerable word which has only acquired taboo connotations recently.

Amen, sister! If it's good enough for Chaucer, it's good enough for me.

[Sweetie]

Haha, and I like the word "moist". It's no wonder men are so confused. :D :

[livius drusus]

Haha, and I like the word "moist". It's no wonder men are so confused. :D :

And British men call each other twats and cunts. It's total anarchy! :didi:

[godfry n. glad]

Haha, and I like the word "moist". It's no wonder men are so confused. :D :

And British men call each other twats and cunts. It's total anarchy! :didi:

That's rather like American males referring to other males as "pussies" or "sissies" (or the latest Austrian import, "girliemen"). It's to associate the man with femininity, that somehow being a derogatory insult.

I'm still bemused that the word "fuck", which at it's base is a word for coitus, a reputedly wonderful thing in human experience, and turned it into the most common of invectives. I would think that things like "pustulant stinking rotting flesh" or "steaming heap of human execrement" would be more to the point. But no....

I like "shitforbrains", when it comes to insults.

As a descriptive word, and not used insultingly at all, I secretly like "cunt", too. It carries a great deal of erotic content for my male mind. It's a more all-inclusive word, including the labia and clitoris, as well as the vagina. It is a erogenous region, rather than a specific site or an entire individual. For some, it also includes the anus. My wife hated the word "cunt", so I haven't used it for a long, long time. It and cunnilingus, my favorite sport, have a lot in common. :P

godfry

[RevDahlia]

coitus,[/b]
Another one I hate. Coitus. Ick.

Maybe I just don't like "oi" words. Except for "foist". Why do I like "foist" and hate "moist"? Huh.

My husband volunteers "furtive", which sucks because I think that's a great word.

[Ensign Steve]

benchmark

I mean, really, what the fuck is that?

[JoeP]

benchmark

I mean, really, what the fuck is that?
Now you've got me gritting my teeth on the total & ugly abuse of words by business.

empowered - what a beautiful flowing word, which is now a complete joke

[Ymir's blood]

benchmark

I mean, really, what the fuck is that?
Now you've got me gritting my teeth on the total & ugly abuse of words by business.
The word comes from surveying, in which it refers to a pre-established point with a known elevation above sea level. Knowing that elevation allows someone with an engineer's level to determine the elevation of other points.

[lisarea]

Hey! I remembered another one!

coed (n)

What a pointless, stupid, anachronistic word that is.

[LadyShea]

Most of mine have been mentioned...smegma is my least favorite word ever. I also dislike moist. I have to add bowels and diarrhea.

I also don't like the sound of sks like in desks and asks, but they aren't vile words or anything.

[Scotty]

Bush
Kerry
GOP
Terrorist
collateral
homeland
economy
taxcut (one seems to go with the other recently)
extreme
right
left
fundamentalist
oil

[Dingfod]

benchmark

I mean, really, what the fuck is that?While we're on corporate buzzwords, paradigm. Yuck.

[beyelzu]

benchmark

I mean, really, what the fuck is that?While we're on corporate buzzwords, paradigm. Yuck.
synergy


although I like the word, it seems to me tht it is used as a filler word by many people which irritates the hell ou of me.

[lisarea]

While we're on corporate buzzwords, paradigm. Yuck.

What makes it worse is that it used to be a real word.

Like dynamic.

Now, even if you use those words to mean what they're supposed to mean, people aren't going to know it. They'll just assume paradigm means idea or something, and dynamic means cool.

[Dingfod]

While we're on corporate buzzwords, paradigm. Yuck.

What makes it worse is that it used to be a real word.

Like dynamic. Or worse yet, the latest one floating around this fucked up corporation, metrics. I remember when metrics referred to the metric system. Now, it's just another way of saying dynamic benchmark paradigm.

[viscousmemories]

I remember when metrics referred to the metric system. Now, it's just another way of saying dynamic benchmark paradigm.
:D Good one.

[JoeP]

Nouns tortured into use as verbs:
let's dialogue around the strategy
we'll benchmark our paradigm with our stakeholders
you have to workshop it

(After all, you would hate to be verbed, wouldn't you?)

And any buzzword with -ise
Strategise, synergise, dynamicise

omg. I haven't heard it yet but I bet someone somewhere has already used paradigm as a verb ... We need to paradigm our new strategy to dynamically empower synergistic organisational learning.

key

unlock

[wade-w]

Irregardless. I hate that word. It's inherently redundant.

[godfry n. glad]

Irregardless. I hate that word. It's inherently redundant.

It's not even a word. "Regardless" is, but that thing isn't.

godfry

[JoeP]

Non-inflammable. It has to be that way, but it's still ugly.

[livius drusus]

Irregardless. I hate that word. It's inherently redundant.

Definitely a hateworthy word. Definitely.

[viscousmemories]

Colleague :madrant:

It just seems like a pretentious way of saying 'co-worker' to me.

[wade-w]

Colleague :madrant:

It just seems like a pretentious way of saying 'co-worker' to me.

A 'co-worker' can be a colleague, but colleagues are not always co-workers. In other words, a co-worker is someone who is employed by the same organization as you, while a colleague is someone who works in the same field.

[godfry n. glad]

Colleague :madrant:

It just seems like a pretentious way of saying 'co-worker' to me.

A 'co-worker' can be a colleague, but colleagues are not always co-workers. In other words, a co-worker is someone who is employed by the same organization as you, while a colleague is someone who works in the same field.

Agreed. liv is your colleague, but not your co-worker, vm.

godfry

[John the Non-Baptist]

Morons have misused "impact" for so long that now I automatically cringe even when it's used correctly.

And there are lot of good vulgar words out there, but I don't like the sound of "shitty."

[AspenMama]

Irregardless. I hate that word. It's inherently redundant.

Definitely a hateworthy word. Definitely.

Yes. Oh yes.

Let me add: preventative.

The ta is so completely unnecessary!

[Goliath]

Over the years, I've really begun to hate the word "presuppose". It's a redundant fucking word...you suppose, you don't presuppose. To borrow a bit from George Carlin: Presuppose is a meaningless fucking term. Given any proposition, and any point in time, you are either supposing the proposition, or not supposing it.

Can't these xian pricks just use the words "suppose" or "assume" like the rest of us?

[Godless Wonder]

Hermeneutics. Always makes me think of a Herman Munster exercise video.

[livius drusus]

Over the years, I've really begun to hate the word "presuppose". It's a redundant fucking word...you suppose, you don't presuppose. To borrow a bit from George Carlin: Presuppose is a meaningless fucking term. Given any proposition, you are either supposing it, or not supposing it.

You can suppose something after analysis or you can suppose it a priori. AFAIAK, suppose and presuppose mean two different things.

Can't these xian pricks just use the words "suppose" or "assume" like the rest of us?

What the hell? I use that word all the time. Since when is this a Christian thing? Or is it just that any occasion is a good one for you to slam Christians?

[Goliath]

Hermeneutics. Always makes me think of a Herman Munster exercise video.

:roflmao:

[Goliath]

You can suppose something after analysis or you can suppose it a priori.


Yes, and regardless, you're supposing. One could also say in the latter case that you're assuming something. Again, "presupposing" is completely and utterly from the department of redundancy department.



What the hell? I use that word all the time.



Really? I've never actually heard anyone (xian or atheist) use it in real life, and I've only seen xians use it online.


Since when is this a Christian thing?


Apparently it's not, unfortunately. :( Damn.


Or is it just that any occasion is a good one for you to slam Christians?

Not all, although many occasions are. However, that wasn't what this was about.

[Ymir's blood]

Colleague :madrant:

It just seems like a pretentious way of saying 'co-worker' to me.
As someone employed in state government, I have many colleagues but no co-workers.
:workcomp:

[Goliath]

:workcomp:

/me giggles..

Sorry to be a bit off topic, but that smiley is damn cute. How many of them do we have now?

[godfry n. glad]

Stochastic. It sounds like a sarcastic stoic.


godfry

[viscousmemories]

Colleague :madrant:

It just seems like a pretentious way of saying 'co-worker' to me.

A 'co-worker' can be a colleague, but colleagues are not always co-workers. In other words, a co-worker is someone who is employed by the same organization as you, while a colleague is someone who works in the same field.

Agreed. liv is your colleague, but not your co-worker, vm.

godfry
Okay that distinction makes sense. However I've heard it used to describe co-workers a lot. And now that I think about it I've heard academics use it to describe the other people in their department, which goes along with that distinction too. Eh, I still don't like it. :P

Anyway why would liv be my colleague and not co-worker? The FF is a project we both work on, so doesn't that make us co-workers?

[livius drusus]

You can suppose something after analysis or you can suppose it a priori.


Yes, and regardless, you're supposing. One could also say in the latter case that you're assuming something. Again, "presupposing" is completely and utterly from the department of redundancy department.

So prejudge and judge are the same thing? How about preheat and heat? Again, the prefix pre is a tool for indicating "beforehand" and does not make the compound word redundant.


Really? I've never actually heard anyone (xian or atheist) use it in real life, and I've only seen xians use it online.

Counting hits and not misses, I suspect. I could link you to a dozen instances of its use all over the internet. Here's one (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1845830&highlight=presuppose#post1845830) from a political discussion I was involved in on II recently.


Not all, although many occasions are. However, that wasn't what this was about.

Nice.


P.S. - 1217

[John the Non-Baptist]

:workcomp:

That smilie is speaking Russian, but what's he saying? You neprov?

[Goliath]

So prejudge and judge are the same thing?


Technically, yes, although a large number of people use "prejudge" to mean one specific context of judging. Again, "prejudge" is a redundant term, it's one that's probably wise to give up on, though.


How about preheat and heat?


Yep, "preheat" is redundant. There are only two states that an oven can be in: heated and unheated. Again, this is, unfortunately, so commonly used that any probability of changing it is prettymuch zero.



Counting hits and not misses, I suspect.



:?


I could link you to a dozen instances of its use all over the internet. Here's one (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1845830&highlight=presuppose#post1845830) from a political discussion I was involved in on II recently.


The only place I've seen it used is on the IIDB, specifically in any of the big, long TAG threads.

Actually, now that I think about it, I do remember some atheists in those threads using the words "presupposition" and "presuppose", but only in response to the xians using it.




Nice.



Sorry, liv, but what seems like an attempt to guilt-trip me into not despising xianity isn't going to work. I do like you, hon, but we are very different people when it comes to some issues.


P.S. - 1217

LOL...I spent about a half minute looking at that before realizing what it was a response to.

Wow...1217.

[godfry n. glad]

[QUOTE]
How about preheat and heat?


Yep, "preheat" is redundant. There are only two states that an oven can be in: heated and unheated. Again, this is, unfortunately, so commonly used that any probability of changing it is prettymuch zero.



I'll disagree with that.

"Preheat" is to heat the oven up to the temperature at which you wish to cook. Ovens do not instantaneously go from unheated to the desired temperature. It takes time to do that. The period of time from when one turns on the oven, until the oven reaches the desired temperature for the project at hand, is "preheating". If you place the item to be cooked into an unpreheated oven, you increase the chances that the item will be undercooked...this could be deadly with some foods, like chicken.

godfry

[Goliath]

"Preheat" is to heat the oven up to the temperature at which you wish to cook.


Yes, but that's redundant. You can just say that you're heating the oven.



Ovens do not instantaneously go from unheated to the desired temperature. It takes time to do that.



Correct. That is when the oven is heating up. It's heated above room temperature.



The period of time from when one turns on the oven, until the oven reaches the desired temperature for the project at hand, is "preheating".



Yes, this is the use of the term accepted by most people. I'm not trying to say that "preheat" is not a commonly used word. Only that it's redundant.

[livius drusus]

Yep, "preheat" is redundant. There are only two states that an oven can be in: heated and unheated. Again, this is, unfortunately, so commonly used that any probability of changing it is prettymuch zero.

The prefix indicates something specific that would otherwise require additional words to indicate; it is therefore not redundant.

Actually, now that I think about it, I do remember some atheists in those threads using the words "presupposition" and "presuppose", but only in response to the xians using it.

It's a commonly used word in discussions, even those populated by only atheists such as the PD thread I just linked you to. A simple search on any number of sites would have disabused you of this notion.

Sorry, liv, but what seems like an attempt to guilt-trip me into not despising xianity isn't going to work.

Well thank God I was attempting no such thing, then. If I find one of your random Christian slams bizarre and hateful I'll say so. Whether you feel guilty about your vicious generalizations is not my concern.

LOL...I spent about a half minute looking at that before realizing what it was a response to.

Wow...1217.

It won't stay at that number for long either.

[Goliath]

The prefix indicates something specific that would otherwise require additional words to indicate;


Not really. There's nothing wrong with the following phrases (other than the fact that they aren't really used that often): "I'm heating the oven to 365 degrees." "Make sure that the oven is heated, or the roast won't cook."

No extra use of words at all without using "preheat".



It's a commonly used word in discussions, even those populated by only atheists such as the PD thread I just linked you to. A simple search on any number of sites would have disabused you of this notion.



:shrug: I guess it's a more commonly used word than I thought. Fine. Whatever. That doesn't mean that I have to like it.



Well thank God I was attempting no such thing, then. If I find one of your random Christian slams bizarre and hateful I'll say so.



/me nods.



Whether you feel guilty about your vicious generalizations is not my concern.



Well, just for the record, I don't.


It won't stay at that number for long either.

Cool. :)

[wade-w]

So prejudge and judge are the same thing? How about preheat and heat? Again, the prefix pre is a tool for indicating "beforehand" and does not make the compound word redundant.


Well, I think I see where Goliath is coming from here, and I have to agree with him. "Suppose" means to make an assumption for the sake of argument, so presuppose means making an assumption for the sake of argument beforehand. Looks pretty superfluous to me.

I just took a look at the entry for presuppose at dictionary.com. In every single case, replacing presuppose with suppose in the examples given for usage will leave the meaning of the sentence completely unchanged. Can you think of a use of "presuppose" where replacing it with "suppose" would change the meaning of the sentence?


Really? I've never actually heard anyone (xian or atheist) use it in real life, and I've only seen xians use it online.

Counting hits and not misses, I suspect. I could link you to a dozen instances of its use all over the internet. Here's one (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1845830&highlight=presuppose#post1845830) from a political discussion I was involved in on II recently.



I may be falling prey to the same hit vs miss fallacy, but as far as I can recall, the first time I ever saw the word used was in a philosophical discussion about EoG, and a school of thought I'd never heard of called presuppositionalism. My first thought on seeing the term was "that's redundant," and my second was that the name implies circular reasoning.

[copiae]

Correct. That is when the oven is heating up. It's heated above room temperature.

Yes, this is the use of the term accepted by most people. I'm not trying to say that "preheat" is not a commonly used word. Only that it's redundant.

When I first saw the word 'preheat', I always interpreted it as "Heat up the oven to whatever temperature PRIOR to sticking whatever you are cooking into said oven". Within this context, it is not redundant at all.

[viscousmemories]

Well thank God I was attempting no such thing, then. If I find one of your random Christian slams bizarre and hateful I'll say so.

* Goliath nods.

Whether you feel guilty about your vicious generalizations is not my concern.
Well, just for the record, I don't.
I have told you before that I find your frequent slams on Christians to be hateful, vicious generalizations, and you have accused me of attacking you, stuffing words in your mouth and making up lies about you. I'm glad you've decided to admit to it now, so people know your accusations about me are unfounded.

[Goliath]

I have told you before that I find your frequent slams on Christians to be hateful, vicious generalizations,


True. And had you left it at that, the flamewars between us would've been prettymuch nonexistent.


and you have accused me of attacking you, stuffing words in your mouth and making up lies about you.


And for damn good reasons.



I'm glad you've decided to admit to it now,



Admit to what? Acknowledging that liv would tell me if she found my slams on xians to be hateful? About not being guilty about what she perceives are vicious generalizations? What?


so people know your accusations about me are unfounded.

I'll leave it to the readers to decide for themselves about your vicious attempts at libeling me.

[godfry n. glad]

So prejudge and judge are the same thing? How about preheat and heat? Again, the prefix pre is a tool for indicating "beforehand" and does not make the compound word redundant.


Well, I think I see where Goliath is coming from here, and I have to agree with him. "Suppose" means to make an assumption for the sake of argument, so presuppose means making an assumption for the sake of argument beforehand. Looks pretty superfluous to me.

Hmmm... Now that you state it that way, I'd say that to presuppose is to come to the argument with your supposition in hand, rather than allowing your supposition to grow from the information imparted in the dialog.

I'd say it intimates prejudiced opinions.

godfry

[Goliath]

When I first saw the word 'preheat', I always interpreted it as "Heat up the oven to whatever temperature PRIOR to sticking whatever you are cooking into said oven".

Yes, that is prettymuch what it means.

Within this context, it is not redundant at all.

Yes it is. How about just using the phrase "heating" instead of "preheating", as in "I'm heating the oven to 365 degrees"? Why the extra "pre"?

Again, I'm not trying to actually change the English language or anything. I know that I'm utterly incapable of that. Just venting a bit of frustration, that's all.

[Goliath]

Hmmm... Now that you state it that way, I'd say that to presuppose is to come to the argument with your supposition in hand,


So why not just suppose what you're supposing?

[wade-w]

I just want to mention that I don't think all uses of the prefix "pre" are redundant. Prejudge vs. judge is an excellent example of a real distinction between the root word and the resulting compound word.

[Goliath]

I just want to mention that I don't think all uses of the prefix "pre" are redundant. Prejudge vs. judge is an excellent example of a real distinction between the root word and the resulting compound word.

Hmmm, I guess on a bit of a second thought, "prejudge" is such a specific kind of judging, that it's best to keep it as a separate word. However, I still stand by the redundancy of "preheat" and especially "presuppose". *shiver*

[Goliath]

On a rereading of this thread, I can see where I wasn't clear enough.

Whether you feel guilty about your vicious generalizations is not my concern.


Well, just for the record, I don't.

I was being unclear. I should've said "Well, just for the record, I don't feel guilty about making what you feel are generalizations."

My apologies. Now, if you want to start another shitfest-flamewar, then bring it on, but I hope that you're about as eager to go through that again as I am.

[wade-w]

Hmmm, I guess on a bit of a second thought, "prejudge" is such a specific kind of judging, that it's best to keep it as a separate word. However, I still stand by the redundancy of "preheat" and especially "presuppose". *shiver*

I'm with you all the way on "presuppose." You have convinced me that "preheat" is also redundant, but for some reason I still don't see at as an atrocious word. Which is strange, because I generally abhor redundancy.

Oh, and "prefix" is another good example of a non-redundant use of "pre."

[Goliath]

I'm with you all the way on "presuppose." You have convinced me that "preheat" is also redundant, but for some reason I still don't see at as an atrocious word. Which is strange, because I generally abhor redundancy.

I didn't either for a long time. Actually, it was one of George Carlin's rants that first made me realize that "preheat" is redundant. But it didn't start annoying me until many years later.

[Goliath]

Oh, and "prefix" is another good example of a non-redundant use of "pre."

Yep. :yup:

[Ymir's blood]

:workcomp:

That smilie is speaking Russian, but what's he saying? You neprov?
Who knows? It's not good to ask WHERE livius gets the smilies.

[Goliath]

Who knows? It's not good to ask WHERE livius gets the smilies.

:D

Any bets on how long before that one is added?

I'm in for 30 minutes. :D

[viscousmemories]

I was being unclear. I should've said "Well, just for the record, I don't feel guilty about making what you feel are generalizations."

My apologies. Now, if you want to start another shitfest-flamewar, then bring it on, but I hope that you're about as eager to go through that again as I am.
Ah, I see. Well if you weren't admitting to making vicious generalizations about Christians, I'll leave it to livius to decide whether it's worth arguing with you about whether your particular comment in this instance was a vicious generalization. You're right that I have no interest in arguing with you.

As for your accusation of "vicious attempts at libeling you" on my part, I request, yet again, that you either produce evidence of this alleged libel or withdraw the claim here and now.

[Goliath]

As for your accusation of "vicious attempts at libeling you" on my part, I request, yet again, that you either produce evidence of this alleged libel or withdraw the claim here and now.

Just look over our past exchanges. You have done almost nothing but misread nearly every word that I've written.

And I said that I would let the readers decide about that, mmmkay?

[livius drusus]

:workcomp:

That smilie is speaking Russian, but what's he saying? You neprov?
Who knows? It's not good to ask WHERE livius gets the smilies.

I actually have a standard #%& quote bubble version too, but I rather liked the Soviet Socialist Republic feel of the Russian one.

You like the Bond one, eh? I've considered it, but always held off cause I felt the smilie itself was too tiny.

[Goliath]

I've considered it, but always held off cause I felt the smilie itself was too tiny.

:yoda: Judge me by my size, do you?

:D

[livius drusus]

Hmmm... Now that you state it that way, I'd say that to presuppose is to come to the argument with your supposition in hand, rather than allowing your supposition to grow from the information imparted in the dialog.

I'd say it intimates prejudiced opinions.

I agree. The same intimation is not found in "suppose". This is particularly clear in the noun "presupposition" which describes a foundational belief on which an argument is based. Unlike a supposition which can be generated at any point during the argument.

[Goliath]

I agree. The same intimation is not found in "suppose".


Yes it is. If I suppose something, and then go on to make an argument, that's the same thing as presupposing something. A lot of theorems are of the general form "Suppose some stuff is true. Then this stuff happens." There's no presupposing necessary. You just suppose.



This is particularly clear in the noun "presupposition" which describes a foundational belief on which an argument is based. Unlike a supposition which can be generated at any point during the argument.



Not really...once you lay down your assumptions (or what you're supposing), then the argument proceeds as normal. No presupposing necessary.

[viscousmemories]

As for your accusation of "vicious attempts at libeling you" on my part, I request, yet again, that you either produce evidence of this alleged libel or withdraw the claim here and now.
Just look over our past exchanges. You have done almost nothing but misread nearly every word that I've written.
I don't have any difficulty reading and comprehending the English language, nor in communicating with the majority of other members here or in half a dozen other forums. I have had no difficulty reading or comprehending your posts either, though I have admittedly misinterpreted you from time to time as is fairly common in this medium. However in my opinion our failure to communicate effectively has come almost entirely from your lack of interest in doing so.

Regarding your insinuation that my comments here might start a flamewar with you, I submit that any flamewar that results from this interaction was started when you decided to make a completely unwarranted and irrational slur on Christians. As such I reject the implication that the "right thing" for me to do would be to let it go without argument. You are aware that some members of this forum, myself included, are offended by your frequent hostile comments about Christians, and you choose to make them anyway. I don't think you have any reason to be surprised when I speak up about it.

[godfry n. glad]

I've considered it, but always held off cause I felt the smilie itself was too tiny.

:yoda: Judge me by my size, do you?

:D

Shouldn't that be, "By my size, judge me you do?"

niggle...



godfry :D

[Goliath]

I don't have any difficulty reading and comprehending the English language, nor in communicating with the majority of other members here or in half a dozen other forums.


I have only had difficulty communicating in two fora: this one and the IIDB. I have been on over a half-dozen other fora with no problems of this kind whatsoever.


However in my opinion our failure to communicate effectively has come almost entirely from your lack of interest in doing so.


Wrong yet again. If I had no interest in figuring out how to communicate with you, I would've walked away from the flamewars before they started.



Regarding your insinuation that my comments here might start a flamewar with you,



Not only might, they probably are.



I submit that any flamewar that results from this interaction was started when you decided to make a completely unwarranted and irrational slur on Christians.



What you perceived as a slur on xians is not what my reply in this thread was about. I brought up xians tangentially because I thought that they were the only ones that used the word "presupposition." I was wrong on that count, and I have admitted to being wrong about that.



You are aware that some members of this forum, myself included, are offended by your frequent hostile comments about Christians,



Unfortunately, and for reasons that escape comprehension, yes. Why any of you who are atheists would defend them is beyond me.

So is that what all of this flamewar bullshit is about? My hatred of xianity? Well, I have news for you: I won't stop hating xianity any time soon.

So if all of this bullshit is about my hatred of xianity, then it's truly unresolvable, isn't it?

Hmmmm, I have to think about this further.

[Goliath]

Shouldn't that be, "By my size, judge me you do?"


Is it? Hmmm, I'll have to watch for that quote when I pop in my DVD of The Empire Strikes Back.

[wade-w]

Hmmm... Now that you state it that way, I'd say that to presuppose is to come to the argument with your supposition in hand, rather than allowing your supposition to grow from the information imparted in the dialog.

I'd say it intimates prejudiced opinions.

I agree. The same intimation is not found in "suppose". This is particularly clear in the noun "presupposition" which describes a foundational belief on which an argument is based. Unlike a supposition which can be generated at any point during the argument.

An assumption that is made for the sake of argument is a premise. Premises are (or at least should be) stated at the beginning of an argument. Granted, the conclusion of one argument can be used as a premise for a second argument, but it still depends on the intial supposition. So suppositions are not generated during an argument, but always precede an argument. I see no useful distinction between making your initial assumptions before the argument starts and making them at the beginning of the argument.

[livius drusus]

The distinction is in unravelling unacknoweldged suppositions that were brought to the debate without being stipulated as premises. I've never seen anyone say "I presuppose x".

[copiae]

If you read 'preheat' as heating prior to the event (the event here is food being placed into the oven), as opposed to heating after, or during the event (which presumably is something to be avoided) then perhaps the term would seem less redundant?



How about just using the phrase "heating" instead of "preheating", as in "I'm heating the oven to 365 degrees"? Why the extra "pre"?


As mentioned above, "preheating" indicates that prior to the event, you are heating the oven to 365 degrees. ''Heating the oven" doesnt do any event-referencing.



Again, I'm not trying to actually change the English language or anything. I know that I'm utterly incapable of that. Just venting a bit of frustration, that's all.

Hehe, venting frustration is good. You don't want to have it build up within you. =)

[wade-w]

The distinction is in unravelling unacknoweldged suppositions that were brought to the debate without being stipulated as premises. I've never seen anyone say "I presuppose x".

I still don't see how this means presuppose is not redundant. Whether the suppositions are acknowledged in advance or not has no bearing on the fact that they still precede the argument.

[Godless Wonder]

How about "redundant."

Is redundancy good or bad? At work there is this computer we have that, upon booting up, prints out something like "ROM redundancy detected." Is that good or bad? Well, turns out it's good. The ROM has redundancy built in so that some part can fail, or be filled with bad firmware, and the machine can fall back to using the redundant part, and continue working. Likewise with disk arrays; more intentional redundancy to mitigate the most probable single points of failure. Have we abused the word "redundancy" in employing it to describe systems in which certain single points of failure have been eliminated? I don't know.

In language, redundancy is usually considered bad, though I hesitate to say it's always bad, because I have this sneaking suspicion born of many days spent trying to program natural language parsers for adventure games that there are some clever counterexamples. lurking in the linguistic labyrinth.

One example illustrates the sort of thing I'm thinking of:

Sometimes redundant (or just superfluous) words are not actually superflous.

YOU ARE IN MAZE OF TWISTY PASSAGES ALL ALIKE.

YOU SEE:
A RING
A BELL
A HAMMER
> TAKE HAMMER RING BELL

What is meant here? Take the hammer and ring the bell? Or take the hammer, the ring, and the bell?

So the article, "the" is not superfluous. But if the command had been:

> TAKE HAMMER BELL RING

Then the article "the" is superfluous.

Oh hell, I've gone off in the weeds again.

Here's another word I hate, just because of how it's spelled:

"Rhythm."

"th" followed by "m" and no vowel in between? I'm always trying to write the damned thing as "rythym." Well, it can be a great word for hangman. As can "quizzed." Ain't got no "rythym."

"Dreadnought" as a size of guitars. How the hell is that a size? I guess it's so damned big that it's afraid of nothing? it dreads nothing? It dreads nought? so it's a "dreadnought?" Is that the idea?

Juggernaut? What the hell? Is that like Astronaut, but instead of being "nautical" towards "astronomy" in a way, it's "nautical" towards "juggernomy." What? I don't understand.

Orange. Nothing rhymes with that fucker. Well, almost nothing. Tom Leher (I think it was) once wrote a litte song, nothing but bizarre enjambments, rhymes orange and lambent. Or something like that. (Ok, now that was fucking clever: an incidentally self descriptive rhyme with orange! I wonder if I plagiarized it? Google says no, not entirely anyway.) I'm going to stop now before I hurt myself, and I'm out in the weeds again anyway. And no, I"m not on weed, despite appearances.

[godfry n. glad]

As for me, I enjoy your forays into the weeds...

godfry

[Goliath]

Whether the suppositions are acknowledged in advance or not has no bearing on the fact that they still precede the argument.

Correctamundo!!

:cool:

[Goliath]

If you read 'preheat' as heating prior to the event (the event here is food being placed into the oven), as opposed to heating after, or during the event (which presumably is something to be avoided) then perhaps the term would seem less redundant?


Nope, not in the slightest. Before I put the food in, I'm heating the oven. Then, the oven is heated. After I turn the oven off, it is unheated.

Notice the lack of "pre" in the preceeding paragraph (and no, the "pre" in "preceeding" isn't redundant. :D )



As mentioned above, "preheating" indicates that prior to the event, you are heating the oven to 365 degrees. ''Heating the oven" doesnt do any event-referencing.



And it's totally irrelevant that "heating the oven" isn't referencing another event. If you're heating the oven, then it isn't heated yet.

Still no "pre" necessary. Jesus titty-fucking Christ, I hope "prenecessary" isn't a word. :yikes:

:D

[copiae]

Nope, not in the slightest. Before I put the food in, I'm heating the oven. Then, the oven is heated. After I turn the oven off, it is unheated.

Notice the lack of "pre" in the preceeding paragraph (and no, the "pre" in "preceeding" isn't redundant. :D )

Hey,

If there is an implicit assumption made that food will never go into an oven that is not 'heated' - i.e. while the oven is heating, then I can see your point. Otherwise -

By definition, you are preheating the oven: You are heating the oven prior to placing food in it. You are not heating an oven that already contains food, and nor are you heating an oven whilst placing food in it.


Regretfully, reality beckons, so this'll be my last post for either about 8, or 20, hours.

[godfry n. glad]

How about "presume"?

I mean, there's already "assume"? How is "presume" different?

Can we assume without being presumptuous? Or not?

godfry

[Goliath]

If there is an implicit assumption made that food will never go into an oven that is not 'heated' - i.e. while the oven is heating, then I can see your point. Otherwise -

By definition, you are preheating the oven: You are heating the oven prior to placing food in it. You are not heating an oven that already contains food, and nor are you heating an oven whilst placing food in it.



Whether food is going into the oven is irrelevant. When the oven goes from room temperature to whatever temperature you're setting it to, you're heating the oven. Then the oven is heated. Once the oven is heated, you can place food, a car battery, or a dead muskrat in there for all I care. It doesn't change the redundancy of "preheat" in the slightest.

[Goliath]

How about "presume"?

I mean, there's already "assume"? How is "presume" different?

Can we assume without being presumptuous? Or not?

godfry

Good question. A presumption is a special kind of assumption--an assumption made about something or someone that is questionable, at best. So, I don't think that "presume" is redundant for the same kind of reason that "prejudge" isn't redundant.

[livius drusus]

1259

[D. Scarlatti]

Not a word but a phrase: "On the ground," as in journalists, soldiers, whatever. Stop already.

[copiae]

Whether food is going into the oven is irrelevant. When the oven goes from room temperature to whatever temperature you're setting it to, you're heating the oven. Then the oven is heated.

Hey,

Obviously this going nowhere fast, so I'll try one last time. If you still don't see my point, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. =)


When the oven is being heated, the food is in three possible states:

1) it is in the oven.

2) it is not in the oven.

3) it is being entered into the oven.

If preheating occurs, then only 2) is a valid state. If heating occurs, then 1), 2) & 3) are valid states.



Once the oven is heated, you can place food, a car battery, or a dead muskrat in there for all I care. It doesn't change the redundancy of "preheat" in the slightest.

... Why 'Once'? Presumably, you can stick stuff in while the oven is heating? After all, we arent preheating here or anything... :D

[viscousmemories]

Well through this discussion I have come to believe that Goliath is right. Preheating is redundant. Cooking instructions could just as well be:

1. Heat the oven to 350 degrees
2. Put the food in

instead of

1. Preheat the oven to 350 degrees
2. Put the food in

However

I submit that the redundancy is intentional and purposeful in the same way (as GW pointed out) computer RAM is redundant. It's a failsafe. A way of ensuring that the person reading the instructions is very clear that the heating is to be done prior to putting the food in the oven.

[Goliath]

When the oven is being heated, the food is in three possible states:

1) it is in the oven.

2) it is not in the oven.

3) it is being entered into the oven.

If preheating occurs, then only 2) is a valid state. If heating occurs, then 1), 2) & 3) are valid states.


Again, you're wrong. If you are heating the oven, then it isn't heated yet. Therefore options 1 and 3 don't make sense unless you wish to incorrectly cook whatever it is that you intend to cook.

[JoeP]

I am not going to get involved in this discussion
As well as redundancy, I think the phrase "preheat the oven" arises from transference from "heat the food". That's the fundamental step and the cook abbreviates it to "heat". Anything before this is therefore "preheat", but there's no object, nothing is preheated. "Preheat the food" is obviously wrong, but "preheat the oven" is not obviously wrong enough to stop people saying it.

Many many grammatically illogical expressions arise from multiple- or mis-applications of rules which may individually be fine and useful. Consider "ice tea" - it's not tea made with ice, it's an elision of the d in "iced tea" which is hardly if at all pronounced. This is :offtopic2: because "ice tea" is not a phrase I hate.

:bot: "delegate" "compulsory" "enabler" "framework" :shakefist:

[Nil Desperandum]

Dual-redundancy.
Quad-redundancy.

When you troubleshoot jet fighters, these words become a part of your every-day language.
Ok, not EVERY DAY, but you read it quite a bit in the description of parts.
Quad-redundant flight-controls is a good thing.

Btw, I love how absolutely no thread on this forum can go two pages without a serious digression and thread-derailment.

Since I cannot hate anything, I'll post words I dislike.

"X" replacing "sk" or "sks" in ANY WORD. I find this common in African-Americans and their use of the English language. I have yet to see anyone else speak in such a manner, and it really pisses me off.

Ghetto language. "Get my hair did." <~~ Fucking atrocity. Where did these people grow up!?

The misuse of "it's", as if almost everything is owned by something else. STOP USING THE POSSESSIVE, YOU FUCKTARD.

Your/you're mispellings.

Expedient is a stupid word.

You know, the military is full of really stupid shit.

Expeditiously.
Expeditionary.
Expedite.

We sure expedite, expeditiously, our Expeditionary Air Forces.

"Hurry up and wait." It isn't official Air Force doctrine for nothing.

Let's see, what else? :tumble:

(HORRIBLE ASIDE: :pms: <~~~ Is that a USED TAMPON swinging from her mouth!? ARGH1@#$!#@ :wall: :bomb:)

Ok, I'm back. :foggy::

That is all.

[livius drusus]

Good God, man; I certainly hope not. It's PMS, after all, so it just wouldn't make any sense.

[Ymir's blood]

The misuse of "it's", as if almost everything is owned by something else. STOP USING THE POSSESSIVE, YOU FUCKTARD.
Actually, it's isn't the possessive form of it but rather the contraction of it is or it has. The possessive form of it is its (no apostrophe).

[wade-w]

Redundancy in engineering is a very good thing; I'd even go so far as to call it necessary in systems where a catastrophic failure would usually result in a loss of lives. That does not in any way imply that redundancy in language is also a good thing. Of course, there are times when a writer may wish to use a redundancy on purpose to make some point or other. To me, this is an aesthetic issue, and I think vm's point about "preheat" is a valid one. But then, isn't this entire thread about aesthetics when all is said and done?

Oh, and nil, "hurry up and wait" is by no means confined to the Chair Force. I think it's standard doctrine in all branches of the military.

[Nil Desperandum]

The misuse of "it's", as if almost everything is owned by something else. STOP USING THE POSSESSIVE, YOU FUCKTARD.
Actually, it's isn't the possessive form of it but rather the contraction of it is or it has. The possessive form of it is its (no apostrophe).

I was waiting for someone to correct me on that. Ha ha ha! I'm using teh 1|\|t3r|\|37!#@$!@ :) :) :)

[Nil Desperandum]

Good God, man; I certainly hope not. It's PMS, after all, so it just wouldn't make any sense.

That P stands for Pre- or Post-, so my original disgust still stands.

[copiae]

When the oven is being heated, the food is in three possible states:

1) it is in the oven.

2) it is not in the oven.

3) it is being entered into the oven.

If preheating occurs, then only 2) is a valid state. If heating occurs, then 1), 2) & 3) are valid states.


Again, you're wrong. If you are heating the oven, then it isn't heated yet. Therefore options 1 and 3 don't make sense unless you wish to incorrectly cook whatever it is that you intend to cook.
Hey,


Unless, of course, certain dishes specifically require being placed into an oven while its heating up, and not when it heats up. Also, seeing as cooking manuals and thier ilk are usually written so that they can be used by a broad range of people, the usage of 'preheat' also significantly reduces this ambiguity to those that don't know much about cooking.


Cheers,

[Goliath]

Unless, of course, certain dishes specifically require being placed into an oven while its heating up, and not when it heats up. Also, seeing as cooking manuals and thier ilk are usually written so that they can be used by a broad range of people, the usage of 'preheat' also significantly reduces this ambiguity to those that don't know much about cooking.


Cheers,

I didn't know there were any dishes that required being in the oven while the oven is heating. Regardless, once the oven is done heating, it's heated.

[Vicar Philip]

I hate these three words in this particular order:
Make no mistake
That phrase is usually followed by some testosterone laden diatribe against "terra" and "the forces of evil."

I also hate these three words in this particular order:
Give it to God
An annoying woman in the church I used to attend would invoke that mantra whenever she spoke of something painful. Here's a news flash: give it to YOURSELF and you'll get something accomplished!

[wade-w]

I also hate these three words in this particular order:
Give it to God


Since a major part of this thread is about nitpicking, I will indulge myself. That's four words, not three. :wink:

[Socratoad]

"Mu pappy said"
The next mock cracker that utters those three words in "mu" presence is gonna find his ass between his shoulder blades. :nun:

Is there anything more aggravating than hearing some 40- 50ish vacant-faced knuckle-dragger without any observable forehead muttering those three grating words. :fuming: