The Passion of the Christ

[Sonnet]

Well, I saw it last night, and let me tell you, you don't have to be a Christian to find it utterly heartbreaking. I cried all the way through, cried when I got home, am still crying today.

Anyone else?

[godfry n. glad]

Sorry, I try to stay away from snuff films.

godfry

[Adora]

I refuse to see this film. You could tie me up and put me in front of a screen and tape my eyes open and I would just go to my Happy Place.

There are far better films about the myth of Jebus out there than this. And they don't have pornographic violence in them. Gibson has some serious fucking issues...

[livius drusus]

I was very much looking forward to it back when the buzz began. I've always been a fan of historical epic kind of things, and Jesus films were some of my favorites. The verisimilitude of this one, particularly the use of ancient languages, seemed very much above par.

Once it became clear that the gore factor was off the charts, however, I had to change my plans. I just don't have the stomach for that shit, I'm afraid.

[viscousmemories]

I refuse to see this film. ...There are far better films about the myth of Jebus out there than this.
How do you know there are better films than this one if you refuse to see it?

I've heard there was a lot of gratuitous violence but I haven't seen it either. Nor have I seen the Last Tempatation of Christ. Honestly how many times can you hear the same story? I've seen it in books, comic books, graphic novels, T.V. shows, movies, musicals... I mean really, I know how it goes. I honestly have no interest in yet another person's interpretation of it.

[Adora]

How do you know there are better films than this one if you refuse to see it?

The wonderful thing about shit is that you usually smell it before you see it.

[livius drusus]

Not a particularly apt analogy. What do you consider a better Jesus movie than The Passion?

[Adora]

Jesus of Montreal. Life of Brian. And yes, The Last Temptation of Christ.

[livius drusus]

Interesting. Obviously verisimilitude is not a criterion in your assessment. If I were to remove that criterion from my assessment, I'd probably put Last Temptation way up there, but I'm such a sucker for the pulpy (in more ways than one) Ben Hur it might sneak past the quality art picture.

Meanwhile, I will continue to feel like a pussy for not being able to stomach the movie even though I'm on principle fascinated by Gibson's approach.

[LadyXoc]

It's a period of history I'm very much interested in, and I'm a sucker for anything that even tries to be historically accurate, but I'm not sure I can stomach the gore. Too many people have described it as "Christian snuff porn," so I'm still on the fence.

[Beth]

I have no desire to see this movie, and let me say that I am so very glad that I won out in not allowing my kids to see this in theaters, a battle hard fought with hubby. It still may be rented, but I am hoping hubby recognises that this level of violence is simply not suitable for our children.

I too had really wanted to see this movie initially. I do enjoy religious epics, most of them, anyway, but I think seeing torture for a few hours would be too much of a drain and it would make me cry. Not really because if Jesus went this way that he endured an even worse death than other men who were tortured and executed in this manner, but because people actually did suffer such horrid deaths. Many men. It amazes me that man kind was so cruel and, in some areas, still remains so.

I also find it amazing that some Christian people tend to preach that Christ's suffering was above the norm when it was not. I would think he suffered the same as other crucified men.

[godfry n. glad]

I have something of a scholastic interest in the whole Jesus controversy. I'm what many refer to as a "mythicist". I think it highly probable that there was no historical Jesus and the tales that come down to us are fabrications by later adherents retrojected into legendary/mythic tale to historicize it.

As such, I'd be fascinated to see what Gibson did with the accuracy of the picture. I'd heard that the language is Latin and Aramaic, with English subtitles. I'd love to hear Aramaic spoken. But I question that the events depicted are historical. They could have been...but that's the point.

Gibson is doing his interpretation of what a certain reputed event was like. Placing it in context is the interest, the story is still a powerful one of martyrology...a strong tradition in Roman Judea. It's a powerful scene. It will strenghten many a Christian's resolve, if he thinks it a true scene.

It's masterful mythology. No question.

However, as mentioned, it is the glorification of a brutal method of punishment, torture and execution. A fairly widely used one in the Roman world. And the Hellenistic world that proceeded it. Hyrcanus and all. It is basically glorification of gratuitious violence. A snuff picture. For religious effect. That stays me from hurrying into it.

I understand Gibson's religious sensibilities are old school supertraditionalist, Latin mass, Roman Catholicism. Is that true? If so, that illuminates the "issues" referred to.

godfry

[Gawen]

Sorry, I didn't care for the book, so I won't see the movie.

[Adora]

As such, I'd be fascinated to see what Gibson did with the accuracy of the picture. I'd heard that the language is Latin and Aramaic, with English subtitles. I'd love to hear Aramaic spoken. But I question that the events depicted are historical. They could have been...but that's the point.

I'd be interested to actually hear what an Aramaic or Hebrew speaker thinks of the language. I mean, native Mandarin-speakers laughed at Michelle Yeoh in CTDH because she had to learn her lines phonetically, not being a native speaker, and so said them with a dreadful Malaysian/English accent. Somehow, I don't think Jim Caviezel (sp?) is a native speaker...

It is basically glorification of gratuitious violence. A snuff picture. For religious effect. That stays me from hurrying into it.
I understand Gibson's religious sensibilities are old school supertraditionalist, Latin mass, Roman Catholicism. Is that true? If so, that illuminates the "issues" referred to.

Yes, it's true. As someone who comes from a Catholic background, I'd say being any kind of Catholic is an "issue". A big deal with people who convert to Catholicism is others already in/having experience from birth of the church saying "You have to grow up with it to understand what it's like" and I'm a firm conformist to this idea. Especially if your family background is rooted in it (eg- My own Irish Catholic ancestors) or your society is greatly influenced by it (eg- South American communities). But that's just me...

[livius drusus]

Catholic iconography is profoundly violent. The veneration of martyrs both in artisitic depiction and in the display of their putative body parts, the crucifix, the danse macabre, eschatology: it's all one big pile-up of bloody, violent death. Gibson's got his own weirdo John XXIII was an apostate thing going on, and God knows (npi) he likes him some blood in his movies, but I don't think the death-n-violence imagery he unleashed in The Passion is "snuff" in any standard sense of the word.

I've always found the Catholic embrace of bodily injury/destruction profoundly compelling, not in a rubbernecking kind of way, but in a confront mortality, accept the vulnerability and transitory nature of our lives, experience empathy on a visceral level kind of way. You don't have to believe Jesus was resurrected or that an afterlife awaits us in order to find value in that imagery.

[Lauri D]

I found it ridiculously over-the-top, gratuitously violent (and not in a "Kill Bill" kind of way), absurdly rife with cheap emotional manipulation... not compelling or moving in the least.

Let's put it this way; at the time it came out, I was casually dating this guy Rick, and we went to see "The Cooler" (great movie btw) but fucked up the time it started so were there more than an hour early. I proposed that we pop into the theater showing The Passion to pass the time. We watched for a while, were alternately bored and amused, and during the supposedly gut-wrenchingly uber-duber-horrific crucifixion scene, I realized that the people around us were staring (at us) in abject horror because we were making out and not somehow MOVED by the unbelievably lame and *fake looking* blood-orgy of what is supposedly the climactic scene in the film.

I mean, really. The supposedly "worst" part of the movie (nails through appendages, etc.) is SO badly done - I've seen better FX in B horror movies - that I found it hard to believe people could watch it and have a response other than "OMG that is so cheesy" (no offense to the OP). I just found what I saw of it incredibly contrived, and trying WAAAY to hard to be "epic", for my particular taste.

*Plus, WTF was with the Gollum-like character - clearly meant to be Satan - haunting around? Totally lame, and to boot, not a big boost for the film's "credibility" (i.e. all kinds of peeps braying about its supposed accuracy, faithfulness to history, etc.)

Might I repeat: Totally Lame.

(And for reals, as someone who enjoys all kindsa films and will give props to anything (in her opinion) deserving even if it doesn't gel with the Personal Outlook, this movie SUCKED ASS *and not in the good way, compulsory disclaimer.)

[Goliath]

I have no intentions of ever seeing The Passion of The Christ.

It's the same bigoted, hate-filled trash that was force-fed to me as a child...why would I want to see the same crap as a movie?

:shrug:

[Sonnet]

Well, I agree - openly manipulative, quite over-the-top. Unfortunately I, who cried first at Bambi and have never been able to stop, am horrifically affected by violent imagery, which depresses me for days. Schindler's List nearly ruined me for life. I don't identify myself as a Christian, but the idea of anything innocent being used so cruelly tears me up, so one image like that is just as effective as another. I'm easy that way. Disney fucking WRECKED me. And, of course, having been raised Catholic, somehow I manage to continue to feel bad about the whole Jesus thing; it's been worked into the very fabric of my being. The faith may flee, but the guilt never will.

:choices:

[JoeP]

... I realized that the people around us were staring (at us) in abject horror because we were making out and not somehow MOVED by the unbelievably lame and *fake looking* blood-orgy of what is supposedly the climactic scene in the film.Waay cool! :appl: :appl:

[Adora]

but in a confront mortality, accept the vulnerability and transitory nature of our lives, experience empathy on a visceral level kind of way.

If only that was it. Unfortunately, it goes beyond "confronting morality" and into "glorifying pain, suffering and violence" far too often in practical application. You'd be surprised how often it crosses the line in a psychology similar to that of sadomasochism. And thus, we have movies like PotC (ever notice that's the same letters for Pirates of the Carribean?).

Mother Teresa. Nuff said ¬_¬ Dirty old bitch...

[livius drusus]

but in a confront mortality, accept the vulnerability and transitory nature of our lives, experience empathy on a visceral level kind of way.

If only that was it. Unfortunately, it goes beyond "confronting morality" and into "glorifying pain, suffering and violence" far too often in practical application.

You cropped off the part where I stipulated that the above values are what I personally take from the Catholic love-affair with mortification of the flesh, not how an external assessment of how it has defined and expressed itself over the years. I'm not alone, of course, and my impressions are shared by many people I personally know who see the Church as a rich source of culturally relevant metaphors (to coin a phrase ;)) more than a harsh and controlling taskmistress.

BTW, I said "confronting mortality" not "confronting morality". I suspect that was just a typo, but just in case...

You'd be surprised how often it crosses the line in a psychology similar to that of sadomasochism. And thus, we have movies like PotC (ever notice that's the same letters for Pirates of the Carribean?).

I doubt I would be surprised, actually, although I often find that American Catholics are completely shocked to find just how easy-going the Roman tradition can be in countries not founded by Puritans.

Mother Teresa. Nuff said ¬_¬ Dirty old bitch...

Not quite nuff for me, I'm afraid. The fact that some Catholics are fans of physical suffering to the point of viciousness doesn't mean the tradition is by necessity interpreted that way.

[Goliath]

You don't have to believe Jesus was resurrected or that an afterlife awaits us in order to find value in that imagery.

Sorry, but I find absolutely no value in such imagery (then again, it seems that I don't find value in a lot of things that some people do find value in...).

[livius drusus]

You don't have to believe Jesus was resurrected or that an afterlife awaits us in order to find value in that imagery.

Sorry, but I find absolutely no value in such imagery (then again, it seems that I don't find value in a lot of things that some people do find value in...).

That's fine, of course. I was raised in the middle of these things and they made a profound impression on the way I see things, the way I think, the way I feel. I'd be diminished without them. Even more than that, these are integral elements of Italian/Mediterranean/European culture; the entire continent would be diminished without them.

[D. Scarlatti]

I have it ranked just behind Dale Earnhardt's autopsy photos on my list of things to see.

[Ronin]

I've already seen and heard enough real humans suffering from far more brutal and drawn out slaughter to really crave viewing a melodramatic depiction.

The whole "martyr-sacrifice" motif of an "immortal being" has been so soundly debunked (for me) that the imagery holds zero value.

It has now become just a rather sorry caricature.

You can't beat the symbology for use in really cool vampire movies though.

:popcorn:

[HelenM]

I didn't go see it in theatres - I know that I find graphically violent photos and movies more disturbing than I cared to be disturbed by seeing this on the big screen.

I haven't ruled out the possibility of renting it at some point, since I could look away or skip the graphically violent parts (although it sounds as if there may not be much left if I do that). I am a little curious about it.

I heard and read much of the Christian hype about the movie earlier in the year. I heard various justifications of the level of graphic violence in the movie but I found none of them convincing, personally.

Livius, I find symbolism in general fascinating but not graphically violent symbolism.

Helen

[JoeP]

I doubt I would be surprised, actually, although I often find that American Catholics are completely shocked to find just how easy-going the Roman tradition can be in countries not founded by Puritans.
On the radio driving home I heard a piece by Robin Williams, which dived into religion. Quoting from memory because I can't find it online:
I'm an Episcopalian. It's like Roman Catholic Lite. All the salvation, half the guilt.
We're descended from Puritans - these were people so uptight the English kicked them out.

[godfry n. glad]

On the radio driving home I heard a piece by Robin Williams, which dived into religion. Quoting from memory because I can't find it online:
I'm an Episcopalian. It's like Roman Catholic Lite. All the salvation, half the guilt.


Add this:

Episcopalian (Anglican) is "pomp and circumstance with divorce."

godfry

[JoeP]

On the radio driving home I heard a piece by Robin Williams, which dived into religion. Quoting from memory because I can't find it online:
I'm an Episcopalian. It's like Roman Catholic Lite. All the salvation, half the guilt.


Add this:

Episcopalian (Anglican) is "pomp and circumstance with divorce."

godfry
:didi:

[Adora]

BTW, I said "confronting mortality" not "confronting morality". I suspect that was just a typo, but just in case...

Guh, sorry. My bad.

See, the violence is the thing, I guess. I'll go see Kill Bill, and Zatoichi, and love them both to death. But the violence in those films is astheticised and there for no other reason than to look nice. It's not trying to manipulate me into feeling one way or another, or get some twisted message across.

I once heard a friend compare PotC to the end of About Schmidt. He ended up calling it "About Schmaltz" because of the thing at the end, combined with the "You too can help a child" flyers they handed out at the screening. He just felt used, and used those same words about his natural reactions to the violence in PotC.