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Gawen
09-18-2004, 09:13 PM
The Wiemar Republik, German Unrest, and current Parallels to American Policy.

The prequel…a beginning for the end.

On 30 Sept. 1918 Ludendorff and Hindenburg told the Kaiser the war was lost. It was more than a century since Germany had suffered a military defeat. The Kaiser was not familiar with the procedure adopted in such circumstances. The Kaiser hung on, hoping that something would turn up which would make abdication unnecessary; at the least, something less than bowing out in a more or less undignified fashion. Thinking about the future was a not responsibility the Kaiser took on. Foresight had not been the outstanding characteristics of Wilhelm II and his courtiers. Under his rule “Prussianism’ had become a synonym for aggressiveness and arrogance, for a society in which the military caste enjoyed the highest social prestige. The landed aristocracy was still the ruling class although it had outlived whatever social, political and economic functions it had once possessed. In other words, Germany itself had become an intolerable anachronism.

Before the capitulation, the Prussian spirit had different connotations; service, selfless work, incorruptibility and other upstanding qualities. Germany before 1918 exuded confidence and optimism to a remarkable degree even though the great majority of the people inherited nothing, had no investments, enjoyed no security and a substantial part lived in poverty. But it was improving. These classes also shared the general mood of optimism.

Marx, after all, had demonstrated that as the socio-economic basis changed, the legal-ideological superstructure was bound to follow. The belief in progress, enlightenment and reason was deeply anchored in both the middle and working classes. Technological innovations justified their expectations. Happiness was the goal and apart from a few extremists, no one thought violence would be needed to achieve it. There had been no major war in Europe for more than 4 decades, nor had there been any large-scale civil disorder. Imperial Germany was not a free country, but it was not an oppressive cruel dictatorship. In comparing the dictatorships that emerged after WWI, Imperial Germany was a permissive country to an almost bewildering degree. There was very little weakness of character as Lenin and Rosa Luxemburg seemed to believe.

There had been at one time a fairly strong democratic tradition in Germany, but in recent generations it had grown progressively weaker. In 1918 the republic came to Germany as a foreign importation. Parliamentary democracy was considered un-German in right-wing circles, suitable perhaps for the French, but not for a nation which had always striven for wholeness and unity. Political parties were regarded at best as a necessary evil because they expressed only part of the popular will, had a divisive effect, and restricted the operations of a strong executive (without which few could envisage a state functioning). And even if it did manage to muddle through, it certainly could not pursue and manage a determined, purposeful foreign policy which, according to Bismarkian tradition, should always have primacy over domestic affairs.

What distressed the enemies of the new political system is that they had no faith in parliamentarism, in the popular will. They were unhappy about the absence of a central idea and a strong authority. Many Germans were romantic in their attitude towards the State. They longed for the good old days and since the Republik was so unromantic, it was considered malignant.

Certain ideas had been axiomatic in Germany before 1918. These concerned the civilizing mission of the German people, the evil intentions of its rivals, the need to secure a place in the sun. Above all, there was a deep seated belief in German military superiority. Astounding victories had been won against ‘a world of enemies’; the fact that the last decisive battle was lost, with all its implications, was impossible to accept. Hence the readiness to believe the invincible German army was stabbed in the back by its own domestic enemy. This allegation, made by Hindenburg (the future president) among others was factually untrue and even the grossest slander. The home front for more than four years accepted without grumbling countless sacrifices simply because it had been told to by military leaders of indifferent quality. Nevertheless, the ‘stab in the back’ legend was to part a central role in anti-republican propaganda during the Weimar years.

There were other myths concerning the ‘November criminals’- the men who signed the shameful Versailles treaty. Many were only too willing to believe in the existence of a ‘hidden hand’, of all powerful forces which had brought about Germany’s ruin. Millions had been killed and wounded in the war. Many more were killed during the blockade and embargos after the war. Such suffering gave rise to a great deal of brooding and political speculation. They searched for the cause. They searched for a scapegoat.

How does one explain the fact that institutions which had existed and thought to exist forever disappeared overnight, with barely a trace? How is it the old masters were suddenly replaced by new men with unfamiliar names? What foreign interests did they serve? How could they take the place once filled by Bismark, Gneisnau, Scharnhorst, or von Stein? Wide credence was given to ‘documents’ such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not the Germans who were to blame for the apocalyptic events in their country, but foreign plotters and agents who for a long time had been at work to bring about its downfall.

The armistice was signed on 11 November 1918 not by Hindenburg and Ludendorff, but by a man named Erzberger, a Catholic civilian creating a convenient alibi for the High Command. The new Republic was off to a bad start in more ways than one. The war was over but peace had not returned. Political, social and economic unrest, coups and assassinations were to mark the next five years.

One can see certain parallels of what happened in a few short years in Germany and what has happened and happening in America. None of the written above or what is yet to come denotes a consistency-like parallel. Change the names from Jews to Arabs, National Socialist to Religious-Right Republicans, Social Democrats to Ultra Liberals. America in recent times did not have the socio-economic collapse as Weimar Germany did. Nor are there coups d’ etats or political assassinations in recent American politics. America is taking its time. Germany back then was in a hurry. But it had no choice.

squian
09-18-2004, 10:27 PM
Gawen,

An interesting post! I am also very interested in this period of history since it seems ripe with so much potential; and yet, history took such an awful turn. I'm sure we all hope to avoid a repeat of what followed the Weimar Republic.

After raising a similar topic earlier with vm, I have since realized the US is nowhere near the level of political and economic polarization that characterized pre-fascist Germany. To me it is unfortunate but the left in the US is all but non-existent. As such, the US has little need for fascism.

The same was not true of the US during the Weimar Repulic in Germany. The US at the time had a similar set of economic and political problems. The Great Depression was driving equally great populist movements. It was the time of big labor disputes and growing leftist organizations. If it had not been for the FDR's alphabet soup social programs, the US could well have ended up heading down the fascist path as well.

Gawen
09-19-2004, 12:13 AM
An interesting post! I am also very interested in this period of history since it seems ripe with so much potential; and yet, history took such an awful turn. I'm sure we all hope to avoid a repeat of what followed the Weimar Republic. Thanks. What brought National Socialism to power is a big...hobby?...of mine. I find it fascinating. Although America does not go the way of Weimar Germany today, the potential for a theocracy, which to me is a sort of national socialism is present.

After raising a similar topic earlier with vm, I have since realized the US is nowhere near the level of political and economic polarization that characterized pre-fascist Germany. To me it is unfortunate but the left in the US is all but non-existent. As such, the US has little need for fascism. There was no polarisation at all in the beginning of the Republic. Unless of course you think of many political entities as polars themselves. But I'd call it a political pin-cushion.... :D The left went two separate ways in the 1920's; Social Democrats and die-hard communists. Most of the intelligentsia went left to some degree or other. Very few went to the right. But either way, the early Nazi's used the left's many tactics for recruiting.

America has not been a militaristic nation, until now. Viet Nam was a different story. Iraq's preemptive attack puts this on a whole different stage of Nationalism's "Might makes right, cause we're American and God-fearing Christians".

Perhaps I was wrong to title this thread the way I did. And equally wrong to say there are parallels of Weimar Germany. But then again, I see things, as do others, that 'echo' the thoughts and processes of those times. Weimar germany saw tremendously monumental things happen all over the world and in Germany itself. The first 30 years of the 20th cent. were the floodwaters of a broken dam of great insights in science, religion, sociology, psychology, art, film, and war. In many areas, if you didn't have a working knowledge of the German language, you couldn't keep up.
Yet what went wrong?

Nationalism, I think, is the core...the root. If things go wrong, blame someone. Anyone. It doesn't matter if you're a fascist or a communist, the common denominator is nationalism. Germany's government was vitually non-existant in the 20's. Everyone blamed everyone else. It just so happens that the Jews and Communists got the bad end of the stick. The communists in germany could have won, but they had no 'creed'. All they could do is emulate the staunchness of the new Soviet Union. German workers and middle class would have nothing to do with this.
Hitler was a genius for adopting the communists own wiley ways and used them for his own needs.

When I see the Nazi's annexations, all I can think of is Afghanistan and Iraq. Who's next? Who do we pull into our realm and make them play our way...or no way? What excuse do we use this time time around? Who is the scapegoat?

9/11 was our excuse to invade Iraq, quite similar to Germany's excuse to invade Poland. Ortega was the excuse to invade Panama. I'm sure you can think of other similarities. And all the time Germany did this, no one moved a finger to stop them until 1940. Where does it concievably end?

Gawen
09-20-2004, 02:12 AM
I just looked at this site (http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ASLevel_History/week6_economicrecovery.htm). Matter of fact, I'm still reading it. It seems to be on the up and up. Figures match other sources I have, as well as the general history. I recommend reading this.

Other parallels I see are Presidential powers close to Hitler's "Enabling Act". In other words, 'emergency powers act'.
A General spouting rhetoric as Bush does.

What we have not in comparison to Weimar and the early days of the Third Reich is the socio-economic and political chaos. Nor do we have remnants of a Monarchy. In hindsight we can plainly see how Hitler came to power. And it all makes perfect sense.

Your friend, VM said this: "Yeah but what scares me is that it just exacerbates the polarization between the right and left and makes America even more like 1930's Germany, ripe for a resurgence of fascism". Actually, he was wrong. There was no polarisation. All there was were splinter groups within the 3 major parties. No one could agree with anything except that the Republic and Jews were bad. The Nazi's jumped on the band wagon and made themselves seen and heard and agreed with EVERYone.
You wrote as a reply: So do you agree, then, that there is an increasing polarization between the right and left that leaves us ripe for a resurgence of fascism? Say if we replace "communist" with "terrorist" as the (at least perceived) common enemy? No...and yes. It depends on too many factors. What happened to increase the polarisation? How and how long? Is it a slow process? Or did something dreadful happen that casues an uber-rift? Does one side actually take control? Martial law?

This comment was made: One similarity I’ve noted was the over-reaction and loss of liberties that followed the burning of the Reichstadt (sp?) in Germany and the rather fast and loose play with civil liberties here after 9/11.

What we don't need is something to galvanise the political right, moderates and liberals that will swing to the right of centre. This happened after 9/11. But it wasn't enough; an isolated incident. Now people have come to their senses. We had our WWI, Viet Nam. We had our slight economic crisis during the 80's. We have fundamental Moslems now to blame intead of Jews. We had our beef with the communists in the McCarthy era. We have had our Night of the Long Knives-9/11. We now, as did Germany then, sluff off world opinion. "If you're not with us, your against us". "It's not our fault....someone else is to blame, but we're gonna make it right. Our right" The checks and balances are still in place. But are they being used? What if the Supreme Court goes all right-wing? What if some President uses his 'special' powers, due to some sort of calamity to put aside any checks of ballances for the 'good of the people'?

But not enough people suffer enough to rally for the extreme right. What happened to Germany happened internally and within 25 years. What happens to America happens much more slowly and usually outside the country.

I believe America slides to the right ever so slowly. Democratic/Liberal administrations stop the advance, but never do we back up. As long as there is a common enemy and Americans think of the country as "Da man" in the world and other nations let us think this way, it will always slide to the right. There are parallels if you look for them. It doesn't mean we'll go the way they did 80 years ago. If anything, it is somewhat alarming and eye-opening.

beyelzu
10-01-2004, 02:12 PM
the big difference is that fundamentalist islamic terrorists do pose a threat to the us.

not so for the jews towards germany.

Gawen
10-02-2004, 03:32 AM
While watching the Presidential debates last night, Bush said a few things that reminded me of Joesph Goebbels, the Nazi Propaganda Minister. Bush seemed to use the 'fear' factor last night pretty much. This was one of the reasons he suggests we pre-emptively attacked Iraq, or should I say, Hussein....the Enemy. Goebbels also used fear tactics. Germany used 'fear' to pre-emptively occupy Denmark, Norway and the Low Countries, saying that England and France would occupy these countries to launch their OWN attack on Germany.

There are big differences to be sure. But there are also similarities.

livius drusus
10-17-2004, 11:14 PM
Salon's top war room entry (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room//index.html) for today reminded me of this thread.

Suskind quotes a senior Bush advisor who derides him, along with most journalists, experts and government technocrats, as part of the "reality-based community." As Suskind tells it, the advisor described this group as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernable reality," an approach this administration evidently sneers at.

"I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principals and empiricism," Suskind writes. "He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

It's considered unfashionably shrill to refer to the Bush administration as fascistic, but this is pretty clearly the language of totalitarianism. Indeed, in her seminal 1951 book "The Origins of Totalitarianism," Hannah Arendt wrote, "Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it."

It's important to maintain a sense of proportion when talking about this administration, which, for all its awfulness, is light-years away from Hitlerian. Finishing Suskind's article, though, there's not much reason for those of us in the "reality-based community" to trust that American democracy can survive intact if this man gets another four years to try to bend the world to his illusions.

Gawen
10-24-2004, 03:25 PM
Wow...thanks. (just now saw this). It's weird that others think upon this. I'm surrounded by Bushlites. They are taken away with him and can't see things the same way I do. Like I said above, Bush'll never be like Hitler, but totalitarian rule takes many different forms. All it takes is some catastrophic incident where he could take control and the dominoes of that event would have to fall into perfect place in order to maintain that control. I think it's unlikely....but ya never know.

squian
02-27-2005, 07:55 PM
Post-election and now conservatives are also concerned about the decidedly undemocratic leanings of the current administration:
Hunger for Dictatorship: War to export democracy may wreck our own. (http://www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html)

And yet both Left and Right are quick to point out differences between America today and Wiemar Germany. Those differences really leave me with little confidence because they do not contradict the decay of democracy here, only suggest it's decay is not like Germany's.