Yaoi!

[seebs]

OK, so this woman I know is into yaoi which is romantic gay male sex.

Actually, shounen-ai is gay romance. Yaoi is just gay sex. It may or may not be "romantic" at all.

I know this, because my wife and inamorata are both very into yaoi. They'll sit around writing fairly heavy gay porn together. (To make it weirder, we're all gamers, so a lot of the gay porn is written in a roleplaying game format. I have no idea whether or not I should feel jealous of my wife telling heavy gay porn stories with another girl.)

I don't get it. I mean, I intellectually sort of do, and can sort of explain it, but it's not very real to me. I don't much get into lesbian porn, and I'm not sure why girls seem to be so into gay porn. But they do.

I can sort of explain it in the case of my wife, who self-identifies as "a gay man trapped in a woman's body". But many of the women I know who are into yaoi are quite feminine, and think of themselves as feminine... But are still way into guys having gay sex.

WHY?

[dave_a]

seebs, I have asked my friend to join and post, whether she will or not I have no idea. I have come to recognize I am just an uke in this relationship ;-)

[dave_a]

well, this seems redundant, but my friend wants to know if you really want to know the answer. She says she will register and post if you do. She wonders why you don't just ask your wife for the answers.

I didn't ask that, my friend made me do it :D

[Godless Dave]

So many men, including me, are turned on by lesbian sex it just stands to reason there would be women turned on by male gay sex. If anything I'm surprised there aren't more of them.

[seebs]

Well, my wife likes it because, so far as she's concerned, she's a gay guy in a very convincing girl costume. I don't think she's typical. My inamorata isn't sure why she likes it, but she thinks it's because it's sex that's got lots of penises, but has a comfortable distance from actually being about her. I have no idea how typical these responses are.

[dave_a]

Well, my wife likes it because, so far as she's concerned, she's a gay guy in a very convincing girl costume. I don't think she's typical. My inamorata isn't sure why she likes it, but she thinks it's because it's sex that's got lots of penises, but has a comfortable distance from actually being about her. I have no idea how typical these responses are.


While I doubt she is a gay guy trapped in a woman's body I saw this show once on the discovery channel or something similar about people being born with their gender being unclear so the parent/doctor makes the choice. This really doesn't make sense to me as I don't get how this could be, but I guess it is. Anyway, they showed these people who grew up as one gender, but later it was proven they weren't that gender. They had the body parts of the gender they were raised as, but inside they weren't that gender.

So I suppose that could happen, but the odds are against it. And if that was the case the odds of her being inwardly a man AND being a homosexual man seem even more remote.

I have often joked half seriously with people that I am a gay woman. It just means I like women and the idea of lesbian sex appeals to me. Well, as long as they have sex as my mind wants them to rather than all the cuddly, touchy feely stuff. But that's yaoi's appeal to women I think. It's man-man sex, but it isn't the kind of sex that appeals to men, it's the romantic, more emotionally involved sex that seems to appeal more to women. I realize I am stereotyping, but I think the generic principle is true enough.

I rather suspect that the reason more women aren't into it is because it doesn't have much exposure yet. Witness the number of people in the other thread (Adoras) who said they never even heard of yaoi or slash.There are enough women into it though that they have annual conferences complete with speakers and "actors". It is called yaoi con and if you type it into google you will see it. I got invited to go this year with my friend, but somehow being in a hotel room with several women, alcohol flowing more than freely whose only interest in me is seeing me get it on with a guy isn't something that appeals to me. :yawn: :eek: Something tells me my wife might have some reservations about it as well. :D

Anyway, I don't think there is anything in the least abnormal about your wife. It seems like a perfectly healthy and rational 'kink' to me.

[JoeP]

While I doubt she is a gay guy trapped in a woman's body I saw this show once on the discovery channel or something similar about people being born with their gender being unclear so the parent/doctor makes the choice. This really doesn't make sense to me as I don't get how this could be, but I guess it is. Anyway, they showed these people who grew up as one gender, but later it was proven they weren't that gender. They had the body parts of the gender they were raised as, but inside they weren't that gender.
This sounds familiar. Oliver Sacks might have covered it in one of his books. Or maybe I've seen the show too. Babies can be born with much enlarged clitorises or not fully formed penises, hence the gender being "unclear". We could probably dig out some photos in medical corners of the web.

Why this should happen is to do with embryological development (ontogeny). Most things that happen to a developing embryo/foetus are triggered by chemical switches. If the right hormone is late, or not in sufficient quantity, you don't get full development, or too much development.

Ambiguous gender is not something society deals with easily, hence the pressure or expectation on doctors to make a decision, effectively telling the parents "yes, your child is a normal boy/girl, with a not uncommon condition".

joe

[seebs]

Oh, no. Biologically, she's a perfectly functional female. But... She's got a "mild" case of... Whatever the name for it is, the thing that makes people want sex changes. But she also recognizes that, in practice, she can't really have a properly functional male body, and that if she had one, I'd probably be a lot less attracted to her. But... In dreams, she's male. If you use ANY psychological test known to show gender differentiation, she's male. If you refer to her as a girl or woman, she does a double-take. When she sees herself in the mirror, it's always surprising that she's got tits.

She is interested in mechanical stuff, rebuilt a motorcycle once, and likes sports.

Seriously; she's a guy. She just happens to be a guy who mostly likes guys.

[seebs]

The girl says:

Heh. And I can't really articulate the reasons I like it, aside from 'double helping of cock,' 'less gender stereotype built in,' 'kink,' and 'safe distance.'

Sounds plausible.

[Adora]

Actually, shounen-ai is gay romance. Yaoi is just gay sex. It may or may not be "romantic" at all.

*ahem*

*Puts on prim-librarian outfit and flips open "The Aestheticism Guide to Terminology"*

Shounen Ai is a genre of the stuff that existed around the 70's. It still exists in part today, but basically it was defined by tragic love tales, a lot of the time without sex. One or both partners would be dead by the end of it, and it was all very romantic. It occasionally had yaoi (sex scenes) in it.

These days, the overarching term for it all is "BoyLove" or just shortened to BL. Within BL there are still some remnants of shounen ai, but mostly it's just regular BL or Yaoi, or BL with yaoi in its sex scenes.

However, since Western fans usually take about 3 years to catch up with Japan, the term 'shounen ai' is still used by many incorrectly.

So if you have a tale in BexBoys about two young schoolboys, one who has a crush on the other one and the other one who has a crush on the teacher and the teacher who seduces them both into a pointless yet graphic and kinky sex scene, it is BL which includes yaoi.

BUT if there is no sex, it's usually just BL.

If you have a plotless smutpiece, it's yaoi, but if that plotless smut piece has several installments over time, it can sometimes be classified as BL.

And sometimes, if there's no sex scenes at all, but it's a love story, it still gets classified as yaoi.

Don't ask me how it all works. I think it comes down to "whatever the author/fans want to call it, that's what it is". But I just thought I should clarify about the shounen ai thing, because not a lot of Western fans know about it.

To make it weirder, we're all gamers, so a lot of the gay porn is written in a roleplaying game format. I have no idea whether or not I should feel jealous of my wife telling heavy gay porn stories with another girl.

Ahh, "Love games". Heh. I wish I could be bothered importing them.

WHY?

See my explanations about slash. Same things.

There are enough women into it though that they have annual conferences complete with speakers and "actors". It is called yaoi con and if you type it into google you will see it.

Damn straight. And there are slash cons as well. And if you ever go to a popular Anime con, there's a good chance you're gonna get smacked in the arse by a fangirl with a yaoi paddle as well. Hehe hehe heh.

I've occasionally used the "gay man trapped in a woman's body" joke with friends, but I've never really meant it seriously, because I'm attracted to women too. It's funny to use just to see people's reactions though. Usually their eyes cross.

[Sweetie]

I don't get it. I mean, I intellectually sort of do,

-I don't get it either except for the kink aspect. I find that things that I find arousing have something to do with me, as in, I can be a part of what is going on if it were real and male homosexuality has nothing to do with me. Would that be the same for men that like lesbian sex? Would they be as attracted to lesbian sex that was such that if a man joined in, the girls would quit? Is there an idea in the mind of the men when they are aroused by such that if they joined in, the woman would continue with them? I would guess that women were more prone to be bi then men which is why when I think of homosexual male sex I think of men with a singular interest and that is directed at another man.

I find that my husband's desire for myself feeds my own so my desire is less unless it's being fed by desire directed at me. Our sex life at many different times could have dwindled if his desire wasn't sustaining it which would be the biggest reason I think for me, why I don't find homosexual male sex arousing or attractive.

[Roygbiv]

I am a straight woman who enjoys gay male action. I don't particuarly enjoy uber-effeminate men (what's the point of that?), although delicate features can be interesting.

Can I explain why? Well, part of it is similar to the rationale given by guys who like lesbian porn: one attractive guy is good, two is better. Personally, I like a high level of contrast between the two participants as well, in terms of physical appearance; that can just be the best of all worlds.

On another level, I find that when I see het porn, I can't help putting myself in the woman's position. That's not automatically a bad thing, mind you. But, it can be sort of liberating to look at two guys and just enjoy it for what it is, instead of maybe subconsciously foisting your own hang-ups onto the participants. Or even just wondering "Would I do that...?" (I don't want to make it sound like that's all I do when I enjoy porn, or that wondering if I'd do that is a bad thing, but sometimes it's just more fun to bypass those issues entirely.)

Hmmm, that's the best I can manage for now. It's funny -- when I first decided to reply to this thread, I thought "Man, I love this, and I'm going to tell everyone exactly why!" But it's a bit harder to explain than I expected.

[Aurora Elegance]

I am a gay boy who is a huge fan of yaoi and BL. It shouldn't be hard to figure out why I like it. :wink:

Seriously, I'd say it's because I see it as an idealized version of actual gay sex. The idea of beautiful and delicate-looking boys engaging in sexual activity just fills me with sexual and aesthetic energy. I find the whole thing beautiful and arousing, personally.

I can't say exactly why girls like it (or why it's aimed specifically towards them) but I would imagine it's probably for the same reasons I like it. Or I could be wrong.