All Good Things Must End, It Seems . . .

[The Lone Ranger]

[I posted this at the other place, but I thought I should post it here, too.]



Well, it appears that Sarah and I are breaking up.

And you know the worst of it? The part that makes it all so terribly, horribly unfair? I love her. And she loves me. Neither of us has the slightest doubt about this. But we’ve come to realize that we just won’t be able to be happy together.

Actually, this has been preying on my mind for the past several weeks, ever since the new semester began and I realized that we’ll both be finishing up our schooling within the next year or so. And then what happens? That’s the rub.

Sarah has been thinking the same thing for about the same time, it happens. She tells me that it first began to hit her back in August, when she went back to stay with her parents for a few days, before the new semester started. (I couldn’t go, because of all the school work.)


So, where to begin? Let’s start with me.

I’m a country boy. I grew up in the country, have lived all my in the country. I hate cities. To me, they’re noisy, stinking, crowded places, and I can’t for the life of me figure out why anyone would voluntarily live in one. To quote Steve McQueen, “I’d rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth.” That’s my feelings about cities in a nutshell. This isn’t to say that I don’t love bookstores and cinemas and other such things that cities have to offer – I most certainly do. But live in a city? Ugh!

Sarah lives in Spokane, which to me is a huge, bustling metropolis, though I’m sure most people would regard it as a fairly small town. When I visit Sarah, I have to wear earplugs at night, else I simply can’t sleep, because the noise of traffic outside keeps me awake all night. I suppose I might get more or less used to it over time, but still. We’ve discussed this before, of course, but I just don’t see how she can sleep with all that racket going on, but she doesn’t seem to notice it. It’s just normal background noise to her, and doesn’t register.

Sarah’s a city girl. As has become more and more clear to us, she could never live in the country. She’d hate it just as much as I’d hate living in a city. As far as Sarah’s concerned, the country’s a nice place to visit from time to time, but she could never live there. My feelings regarding the city and country are precisely the opposite, of course.

All of Sarah’s family lives in southern Washington and northern Oregon, and it has become increasingly clear to her over the past few months that she could never bear to live more than a few hours’ drive from them, and preferably much closer. So, all of the jobs she’s looking at are in the Olympia area, where her parents live.

I don’t come from a close-knit family, and in fact almost all of my relatives live some 3,000 miles away. I’m happy to see them from time to time, say at Christmas, but it’s not a big deal to me. I certainly don’t find the prospect of living near her family daunting or unpleasant. Quite the opposite, actually. I really like her family, and both they and Sarah have gone to considerable lengths to make it clear that they like me. (More to the point, Sarah’s parents have rather pointedly told her that they thoroughly approve of me as a potential son-in-law.)

But if I go into academics, as I probably will, what are the odds that I’ll be able to secure a good job within the very limited geographical area in which Sarah is willing to live? It’s not especially likely, unfortunately.


As some of you know, the past year or so has left me feeling somewhat less than pleased about certain aspects of the academic life, so I’ve been giving serious thought to trying to find some way to find a job as a science and/or environmental writer of some sort. I’ve tried to convince one of the local weekly newspapers that what they really need is to hire someone like me – someone who knows and understands science, so can write about scientific matters with some degree of accuracy and understanding; someone who’d just love a job as a science-writer, getting paid to investigate and write about neat things; and/or someone who’d be an excellent choice for writing fascinating and informed articles about the flora and fauna of the local parks and recreational areas.

Sadly, I’ve been unable to convince them of their urgent need for my services.

One of the reasons I was so enthusiastic about the idea was because it would allow me to stay in the general area, and might even turn into something that would allow me to live wherever I pleased. I could think of much worse places to live than the Olympia area, even if I wouldn’t like to live in Olympia itself. (Maybe we could work out a compromise and live near Olympia, but within a convenient driving distance.)



Still, I’m a biologist by training and inclination. I had the extraordinary good fortune to grow up on a farm out in the country, miles from the nearest town. At least in the summers, when there was no school, I spent almost literally every waking moment wandering around outside, looking for neat wildflowers, climbing trees, catching turtles, lizards, snakes, frogs, and other neat critters, and other such activities. I knew every blueberry bush and patch of wild strawberries for miles, and I could have walked through the forest blindfolded, so well did I know every tree. At night, I’d go to sleep to the sounds of crickets and night birds.

I love plants and animals and the countryside. That’s why I went into biology. If I won the lottery, I’d buy a farm and a whole bunch of unspoiled land somewhere in my beloved Appalachians and spend my days wandering the woods and meadows, and my nights gazing up at the clear sky unsullied by the pollution of city lights.


Anyway, the upshot of it is that we’ve been discussing this for the past couple of days now, and we’ve come to the mutual conclusion that there’s very little hope of us ever being truly happy together, because anyplace she’d like to live (i. e., in a city) I’d be miserable in, and anyplace I would like to live she would be miserable in. Couple that with the fact that she’d be absolutely miserable living any distance at all from her parents, and that it’s unlikely I’d be lucky-enough to find a good job right there in the Olympia area, and there you have our situation.

According to the Beatles, “All You Need Is Love.” What a contemptible lie!


This coming weekend will be the first one that we’ve spent apart in almost a year. It’s going to be a bit surreal.

I don’t think that it had really sunk in yesterday, but it’s definitely sinking in today. I feel a great big Sarah-shaped hole in my life right now, and it’s terribly sad.

The good news is that we’ve been able to discuss all of this calmly and respectfully. We both love each other – and more importantly, in a way, like each other – too much to ever want the other to be unhappy or unsatisfied in any way. We’ll remain friends, but we’ve agreed that it’s probably best to take a few weeks off to think things over and reassess our lives. After that, hopefully, we’ll be able to see each other on a friendly basis, rather than as lovers. It’s going to hurt for awhile, though.


Right now, more than anything else, I just want to rush up to Spokane and hold her tight.


Dang it all to heck. As if things weren't bad enough, now my vision's getting all blurry and my nose is starting to run.


-- Michael

[Goliath]

:(

I'm sorry. I know that saying that doesn't really do anything...hell, I really can't do anything more.

:deepsigh:

[viscousmemories]

That's awful, Michael. I'm sorry. :(

[freemonkey]

Oh, I'm so sorry. Is there any way you two can compromise, and continue some sort of long-distance type of relationship? Or do one or both of you want the traditional marriage, home, children thing?

[Lauri D]

Michael - I wish there was something more that I could say, but there's not, but FWIW I am sorry for what you are feeling and going through. :(

Lauri

[beyelzu]

I dont know what to say man.


I wish there was something I could do to help.



I imagine that you and sarah have talked it all out, but are you sure that there is no compromise possible?

[Bella]

:grouphug:

We're here for you, man.

[The Lone Ranger]

Sadly, the fact that it was something of a long-distance relationship was a big part of the problem in the first place. We live about 80 miles apart, and neither of us was at all happy about the fact that we only got to see each other on the weekends.

That's one reason I was so hopeful that the writing job would come through, because I'd happily have chucked what I'm doing now and moved up to Spokane (or at least close by).

But that doesn't seem to be a possibility. Once I'm finished here in the graduate program, I'll be moving on to goodness-knows-where, and Sarah wants more than anything to find a job in or near Olympia when she finishes her program. Both of us want the traditional marriage, not a long-distance relationship.



*Sigh*

Sarah feels so terrible, because she's so afraid that she has hurt me, and because she doesn't want our relationship to end. And I feel terrible because I don't want to hurt her, nor do I want our relationship to end. But we're both pretty-much convinced that it's just not going to work out, and that the sooner we admit it, the better it will be for the both of us.

It was Sarah who initially had the courage to come right out and say that she saw no way the two of us could be happy together, because neither of us would be happy with a long-distance relationship, she'd be miserable living anywhere other than in the Olympia area, and even if I was fortunate enough to find a job in or near Olympia, I'd be miserable living there.

So she blames herself for broaching the topic, and keeps apologizing profusely for all the pain she has "caused." As if I could ever blame her for having the courage to say what needed to be said!


But it's just so unfair dangit!


And now my eyesight's all blurry again, and my nose is all runny. I must be coming down with something. Yeah, that's it.


(She hasn't discussed this with her parents yet. They've made it very clear to her that they thoroughly approve of me as a prospective son-in-law. Her dad's a navy veteran, so her parents know a thing or two about making a long-distance relationship work. So, part of me is hoping that they'll somehow wave a magic wand and make it all better. Best not to dwell on that, though.)


-- Michael

[seebs]

I guess, ultimately, when you have something like this, you have to decide which of the various things under discussion is the most important. I've faced that decision a few times, and I'm never quite sure about my choices... My wife and I have had similar discussions, although we've ended up deciding that, yeah, it is worth it to stay together. And indeed, I'm glad we did so.

But it's never easy. And you have my sympathies, because breakups are rough. Sometimes, you almost wish there were a big nasty fight so it could be someone's fault, not just the world not quite working out.

[JoeP]

Unfair, yes. Wrong and right. Right outcome, it would seem, but wrong that it has to be so.

Sorry man.

[wildernesse]

I'm so sorry, Michael. :grouphug:

[Roland98]

Aww, shit. :( My sympathies as well.

[livius drusus]

Oh Michael, that's just so awfully sad. I keep wanting to say that there must be a way, but it's pretty clear y'all have examined this from far more angles than I. I'm so sorry. :deepsigh:

[copiae]

Hey,

:(. I don't really know what to say, except to hope that an alternative thats mutually agreeable can present itself...
[EDIT]: I forgot to add that it doesnt really seem like one exists :(

Good luck on the job hunt, too. Have you considered doing some sort of course/degree in Journalism to complement your expertise in science (I have no idea about the field, so I don't know if it'll help)?

Cheers,

[Farren]

Hey,

:(. I don't really know what to say, except to hope that an alternative thats mutually agreeable can present itself...
[EDIT]: I forgot to add that it doesnt really seem like one exists :(

Good luck on the job hunt, too. Have you considered doing some sort of course/degree in Journalism to complement your expertise in science (I have no idea about the field, so I don't know if it'll help)?

Cheers,

I think you can combine writing with almost anything.

[Farren]

Michael, I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles.

I believe, though, that you're particularly well equipped to accept this change and move on, given the philosophies you've espoused here and at HH. Also, you've always got a friend in her and I'm sure the end of your relationship doesn't mean the end of all communication.

I still communicate a couple of times a year from the woman I shared 5 years of my life with to tell me what's up, how the kids are, how hubby's book is coming along and so on and I feel uplifted after every call. After the feeling of loss has gone, the warm feelings continue and even if you're not sharing every intimate moment, the love continues and gives you little boosters from time to time.

:hug:

[Godless Dave]

Well, that blows the big wankus. My sympathies.

I think the J. Geils Band said it best:

I've had the blues, the reds and the pinks
One thing's for sure
Love stinks.

[The Lone Ranger]

Well, I'm feeling much better today. I think that yesterday was when it really sank in. Now I've had time to process it, and so I'm feeling much better.

Oh, I don't doubt that it's going to be a bit painful this weekend, since it'll really hit home once I'm forced to confront the fact that this'll be the first weekend we've spent apart since we met. (Literally!)


I'd say that Sarah is rather more firmly convinced that a relationship between us is ultimately doomed than am I. I'm still not entirely convinced of that. After all, I've been to Olympia twice now, and I could certainly think of much worse places to live. If we could find a nice place out in the country, not too far from the city, surely that could work for the both of us?

On the other hand, part of me thinks that if one half of a partnership is convinced that it just won't work out, that's a big warning sign to which attention should be paid.


Still, I'm waiting to hear what Sarah's parents think of all this. As I mentioned, for some reason, they seem quite fond of me, and I quite like and respect them as well. (They even went so far as to pointedly insist that I should be a part of an "intimate family gathering" back in July, to celebrate Sarah's grandmother's 80th birthday.) I'd like to hear what they make of all this.


So, right after the last of my students left today, I took off and went for a nice, long walk. I've found that nothing so allows me to clear my mind and think things through than a nice long walk. So, I'm feeling much better now. I don't like it, but I've accepted that it's probably over, so I can contemplate the whole situation much more objectively.

All of our mutual friends and acquaintances live in either Spokane or Olympia, so I haven't actually spoken with anyone about this, other than Sarah, of course. That's why you guys were elected. I figured it would be therapeutic to just put it down on "paper," so to speak.


One thing this has spurred me to do is mount a more aggressive campaign to convince some local (or not necessarily local, actually) newspaper that they really need to hire someone just like me -- exactly like me, in fact -- as a science writer. What can it possibly hurt to try? I might even get lucky. So, this weekend, I'll put together some writings and some sort of cover letter, and start mailing them out. Besides, it might be good for me to keep as busy as possible this weekend.


Anyone know any newspapers or magazines that're looking to hire a somewhat eccentric but quite well-educated person as a science writer?


Cheers,

Michael


"I love her, yes I love her
Just enough to let her go."
-- John Denver

[viscousmemories]

Sounds like you're approaching this with characteristic aplomb, Michael. :yup:

[Godless Dave]

On the other hand, part of me thinks that if one half of a partnership is convinced that it just won't work out, that's a big warning sign to which attention should be paid.
You are a wise man.

[livius drusus]

I'd say that Sarah is rather more firmly convinced that a relationship between us is ultimately doomed than am I. I'm still not entirely convinced of that. After all, I've been to Olympia twice now, and I could certainly think of much worse places to live. If we could find a nice place out in the country, not too far from the city, surely that could work for the both of us?

On the other hand, part of me thinks that if one half of a partnership is convinced that it just won't work out, that's a big warning sign to which attention should be paid.

I think she's scared, Michael, of losing her context, her roots. I can't help but think that sense of doom comes from her contemplation of a life by your side being the only thing she has, with the tether to everything else she holds dear so stretched and frayed it might as well be severed. Perhaps she sees your placid reaction to being so far from your family and seeing them so infrequently as a horrible fate she'll have to embrace in order to be with you. You finding a local job right now might not shake that feeling if she's looking further ahead than the next few years.

I'd be the last person to give you any advice, but I can't help but hope y'all find a way to work through this. I can't help but think there has to be a way...

[Godless Dave]

I may be accused of giving up too early, but I'm a firm believer in the Sting principle: If you love someone, set them free. I've wasted far too much of my life pining for things that were no more or never were.

[AspenMama]

Michael-- so sorry.

Shakespeare keeps coming to mind but also the thought that it would sound so trite--

Wishing you quick healing....

[The Lone Ranger]

I think that livius has the situation pretty-much nailed.

As both of us are entering our final year of school, it suddenly hit Sarah that we'll soon have to make some definite plans about our future. And she simply couldn't bear the thought of being separated from her family -- her roots.

Even if we lucked out and I found a good job near Olympia, she'd constantly be worrying about two things:

What if I was offered a better job down the line? Would I be tempted to take it? If so, what unpleasant choices would she be forced to make?

Would I be pining for the East, and wanting to go back there -- and so resenting her in some way, because I know she'd never willingly leave the Pacific Northwest?



I think I'll go ahead and send out some feelers about finding some sort of writing job, just to see if I get any bites. If nothing else, it'd be good to have choices. Besides, as I've mentioned, the past few years have left me feeling a bit disillusioned about certain aspects of academia.

That's not to say that if some small, private liberal arts college in a nice part of the country (say rural New England, Appalachia, the Pacific Northwest) were to offer me a teaching position I wouldn't leap at the chance. After all, I love teaching. I don't care for the politics that seem to be endemic at larger schools, and I simply abhor the "publish or perish" mentality that permeates far too many schools, where professors who "waste" too much of their time teaching (as opposed to bringing in grant money) are looked-down upon, and even punished.


As for Sarah and me, I won't say just yet that things are utterly hopeless. I think I'll just take a wait-and-see approach. I figure at the least, I have a good friend in her. And that's no small potatoes.

It does seem awfully weird to be alone this weekend. On the other hand, I've had some nice long walks in the woods, which I always enjoy. I spent some time bird watching, looking for fall wildflowers, tossing crumbs to fish in the creek, that sort of thing. Not a bad day at all, really.


Cheers,

Michael

[Scotty]

Let see, because she might have to make a decision in the future, that may or may not happen, which may or may not be difficult, she is willing to give up happyness she has now?

Just in case, lets not see how it might turn out because options are limited and you are overthinking what may or may not happen.

I think you guys are over analyzing the situation, worrying about what might or might not happen, trying to make all decisions for the future of exactly what it might be and could possible be.

All you are going to do is drive yourself nuts.

I am not being mean, I just think both of you are outsmarting yourselves of the happyness you have now.

Why don't you ask the question of whether you will find somebody else that makes you happy in the future? Your family can't give you everything, and then what will you think of somebody you might happen to accidently find in the future?

Sure, you can have the other person as a friend, and that is fine, it just seems a waste to me. So few people really find anybody that clicks. Of course, maybe this situation just means it would never work (you both are too smart for your own good! :D )

It may be that nobody will really make her happy either, because she won't let it happen because it doesn't match everything that she might want, or could be and it might lead to tough decisions. I suspect she may have never had to make a tough decision and her first one (you) will be a deciding factor in how she deals with things the rest of her life.

Again, I am not being critical or mean or anything like that, just frustrated, I suppose.

Be happy now.

-Scott

[pescifish]

I think you guys are over analyzing the situation, worrying about what might or might not happen, trying to make all decisions for the future of exactly what it might be and could possible be. Yeah, what he said to all of it.

If you know there might be some issues at the end of this school year, why not wait and deal with them at that time? A good friendship is no small potatoes, but heck, why not keep the weekend romancing (big potatoes!) during this year when you do know you have each other?

My live-in relationship while I was in college had a fixed deadline: we knew from the start that we would only be together until he went to France for his junior year as an exchange student. It was a natural break as I graduated before that time. We had a great summer after my graduation and while he was preparing for his school year overseas. There is something about really enjoying a person in the present when you know there are no hooks for the future.

If it were me, I'd absolutely set that deadline ("Our relationship ends then") and stop worrying about the future. When the time comes, you may feel differently, but you know you would have had all this time to enjoy each other fully now.

Be happy now.Yeah, what he said, again!

[The Lone Ranger]

Of course I don't think you're being mean. I think you're right on target. And the both of you have given me some things to think about.

I haven't spoken to Sarah today, but this is generally the topic I want to bring up anyway. I mean, you're right: just because things might not work out in the future, why ruin a relationship that's awfully good right now? This is what I've been wondering. I've tentatively tried to bring that up, only to have her say that she can't bear the thought of choosing between me and her family, so it's best to end our relationship before it gets to the point that this will be an issue.

But hasn't it already reached that point? And doesn't this mean that she's already made that choice? I mean, we had been talking semi-seriously about where we would go after our respective graduations, and I had already begun looking into possible employment options in the general area, with her knowledge and encouragement.

Alternatively, is there any reason why we couldn't continue to see each other, since we obviously get along very well together, and thoroughly enjoy each others' companionship -- even knowing that the relationship will (probably) be ending in the not-so-distant future?


I think perhaps I've been too easygoing, and too willing to effectively say, "Well, if you think it's hopeless, I guess I'll have to agree."


Cheers,

Michael

[pzmyers]

Speaking as the old geezer here, able to look back on a quarter century of a relationship, I gotta tell you: you've got it all backwards. The people in your life ought to be the first consideration: career has to be the thing you make work around your family. I've made a lot of compromises in my work, but one thing I wouldn't do is sacrifice any of my history with my wife and kids.

Imagine yourself 20 years from now, waking up to that perfect job, but no Sarah. Then imagine yourself 20 years from now with Sarah, and a far-from-ideal job. Which is more appealing?

And since you're an academic, you should also imagine waking up in 20 years with no Sarah and a crap job.

[AspenMama]

Michael-- I've had some thoughts based on my previous relationships. In one of your posts, you spoke about her parents approving of you a great deal. In one of my past relationships, I told my then boyfriend that my mother approved of him and us, he said "That's the kiss of death for us then." The relationship did end-- for many various reasons including that I liked someone else at the time. But I'm bringing this up because, I don't think that overwhelming parental approval is always a positive thing-- and I'm not sure of the pscyhology behind it-- but it is a common thing that girls want the guys their parents don't like-- even if only a little dislike.

Another thing I was thinking of was my marriage. When I was planning to be married, I was ready to go to the ends of the earth for my then husband despite a very close relationship with my family. It sounds like an excuse on her part to end the relationship.

A random thought-- growing up, my family owned a cabin with 4 other families high in the Rockies. Every 5th weekend, we were scheduled to go and enjoy the wilderness. My dad, a geologist, appeased his desire to be outdoors with this cabin, and with leading numerous scouting expeditions with my brothers and sometimes me. We lived in the suburbs and my parents would also purchase season symphony tickets and take us to all the great cultural events the city had to offer. Michael, you could make it work. You could live in a city-- just find a pocket of that city that's near some open space. Consider investing in a cabin in the woods like my family did-- (camping with babies isn't fun). There are ways to make it work if you both really wanted-- but that doesn't seem clear to me.

But hasn't it already reached that point? And doesn't this mean that she's already made that choice?

I think perhaps I've been too easygoing, and too willing to effectively say, "Well, if you think it's hopeless, I guess I'll have to agree."

Have you already made that choice too? Have you thought about why?

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally posted by pzmyers:

Imagine yourself 20 years from now, waking up to that perfect job, but no Sarah. Then imagine yourself 20 years from now with Sarah, and a far-from-ideal job. Which is more appealing?


That's an awfully good point. I have to admit that I find the latter scenario rather more appealing.



Originally posted by AspenMama:

In one of your posts, you spoke about her parents approving of you a great deal. In one of my past relationships, I told my then boyfriend that my mother approved of him and us, he said "That's the kiss of death for us then." The relationship did end-- for many various reasons including that I liked someone else at the time. But I'm bringing this up because, I don't think that overwhelming parental approval is always a positive thing-- and I'm not sure of the pscyhology behind it-- but it is a common thing that girls want the guys their parents don't like-- even if only a little dislike.

I wouldn't have thought of that, but it's an interesting idea. Sarah is very close to her family indeed, but from what she and her parents have told me, they simply hated her last boyfriend. From all that I've heard, they had good reason to -- he was apparently possessive, controlling, and mentally abusive. Yet she stayed with him for years, even though she's the first to admit that she was well-aware at the time that he was bad for her, and that she'd spend a seemingly endless amount of time trying to excuse his behavior to her friends and family.

I suppose there might be a correlation.
Previous boyfriend: Parents despise him, but she stays with him and defends him against all criticism. Finally leaves him only when she literally begins to fear that he might move from mental abuse to physical abuse.
Me: After we go to visit and spend nearly a week in Olympia, her parents (and grandparents) tell her (and me) that they heartily approve of her choice. Not too long afterwards, she decides that the relationship is ultimately doomed.


Another thing I was thinking of was my marriage. When I was planning to be married, I was ready to go to the ends of the earth for my then husband despite a very close relationship with my family. It sounds like an excuse on her part to end the relationship.

I've been wondering about that. She keeps insisting that it's nothing like that, but I wonder. On the one hand, she says she loves me, and I have no reason to think otherwise, but she says that she's convinced it won't work out in the end, and so she wants to end the relationship now, when it will be relatively easy, rather than later, when it will be harder on the both of us.

I don't pretend to understand the logic. We should break up now, because we might be forced to make a difficult choice in the future?


In fairness, I oversold the "I could never live in a city" thing. As she and I have both discussed, while I could never see myself living in the heart of New York City or Seattle or some such place, I could certainly live in the outskirts of just about anywhere -- especially a place like Olympia. Heck, I've been to Olympia a couple of times now, and one neat thing about it is that even if you lived smack in the middle of downtown, you could easily walk to some decent parks, and the nice thing about the area is that you're never more than a few minutes' drive from some nice green spaces.

So, while it's true that in an ideal world I'd never live in any city -- or even close to one -- I've never for a moment considered this to be an ideal world. Olympia's fairly small, quite liberal-minded and diverse, and there's plenty of nice countryside within easy commuting distance. I really wouldn't mind living there -- especially if I get to spend my weekends roaming around in the Cascades.


So, I dunno. Perhaps there's more going on than I'm aware of, and she has other reasons to be convinced that the situation between us is ultimately hopeless. So far, the only real explanation I've gotten is that she simply can't bear the thought of choosing between me and her family, should I be offered a job elsewhere and be tempted to take it. (She's training to be a school counselor, so it would probably be a lot easier for her to find a job exactly where she wants to than it would for me, assuming I go into an academic career.) So, she thinks it's best to break up now, before that becomes an issue. The more I think about it though, the more incomplete an explanation it seems to be.


Have you already made that choice too? Have you thought about why?

I'm not at all convinced that things are hopeless between us, but she seems to be. Perhaps I need to more forcefully explain why I think we may be throwing away a chance for happiness. I get the impression that she thinks that if the relationship can't be "perfect," it's best to end it entirely. But what relationship is ever perfect?

Right now though, she has decided that we "need a couple of weeks apart, to re-think our relationship," so we haven't spoken much in the past week.


Cheers,

Michael

[AspenMama]

Ah, man, can I just send you a hug?

I think, Michael, that you should put up a fight! Weird psychology aside-- she'll respect you for fighting for your relationship and know that you really do care for her and want to make it work. Alternately, if it's truly over, you will know that you didn't let it die quietly-- you went out with a fight-- like the Ranger you are-- and hopefully not long to be Lone.

Lay it all out for her-- be like a guy in the movies-- ride up on your white horse and try to sweep her off her feet.

On another note--- have you tried sending articles into magazines like National Geographic? Or other popular science related magazines?

[pzmyers]

So, while it's true that in an ideal world I'd never live in any city -- or even close to one -- I've never for a moment considered this to be an ideal world. Olympia's fairly small, quite liberal-minded and diverse, and there's plenty of nice countryside within easy commuting distance. I really wouldn't mind living there -- especially if I get to spend my weekends roaming around in the Cascades.Or the Olympics. In my perfect fantasy world, which I expect will never happen, someday I will retire and move to a small snug cabin somewhere near Forks, and my biggest decision every day will be whether I want to hike east up some river valley, or west down to the shore.

I actually tried to get a job at Evergreen. I got an interview, they liked me, I liked them, and then I got turned down because, they said, I was too research-oriented. Waaaah. I applied there because I liked teaching and I liked the environment and despite the fact that I knew I wouldn't have much opportunity for research.

[Scotty]

Maybe deep down, she feels she doesn't deserve a nice guy like you, she doesn't deserve to be happy.

My wife had this problem, and it took a LONG time to break her of that (in fact, sometimes I don't think she is over it still, but I can't be nice forever...I gave her 30 years though).

-Scott

[AspenMama]

Maybe deep down, she feels she doesn't deserve a nice guy like you, she doesn't deserve to be happy.
Yeah-- that could be another reason she stayed with abusive guys before she met Michael.

[The Lone Ranger]

This weekend will be the second of the two weekends we agreed to spend apart, so that we'd both have some time to "think things over." So, I sent her an e-mail saying that we should definitely get together next weekend, so that we can talk things through. Personally, I don't think that's such an unreasonable request.

Frankly, I'd like to have a slightly more convincing reason that our relationship is doomed than "it just won't work," and "I don't want to have to choose between you and my family." So far, that seems to be the gist of it, though.



Evergreen State College is indeed a neat place, and I've heard lots of very good things about it. I checked recently, and they're looking to hire a Mammalogist/Ornithologist, to start next year, which would pretty-much be right up my alley. The only problem is that the person they hire would be expected to work in the museum, and so they want someone with preparatory experience. I've spent a good deal of time hanging out in museums and even working with museum specimens, but I've never been trained in preparatory work. But I could learn. It actually sounds like an appealing position, so I downloaded the information and I'll send them a c.v. and application. Who knows, I might get lucky?




More and more, I think that there must be more going on than I'm aware of. How could there not be?

Certainly, Sarah has some self-esteem issues. Maybe that explains why she's been with some true jerks. She has always refused to even speak the name of the last guy she dated. She seems to think that if she ever utters his name, that might somehow cause him to reappear. Apparently, though, he was a real piece of work. Interestingly, he was also into karate, though I'm sure that's a coincidence. She once told me that "You're everything a karateka should be, and he's everything that a karateka should not be." Apparently, he enjoyed bragging about how tough he was and all, and about all the ways he knew how to hurt people. Ugh!

Anyway, she has said on more than one occasion that she worries sometimes that I'll get bored with her, because I don't think she's smart enough, or that I'll somehow think she's not "good" enough for my taste, or some such thing. Which is a bunch of tommyrot, as I've told her in so many words.

She may have some self-esteem problems, but she's not lacking in intelligence, nor in compassion, kindness, or general good-heartedness. Now, if only I can convince her of that.

Yes, we definitely need to talk.



[I sent out some writing samples just yesterday, and I'll try to get some more stuff put together this weekend. Doesn't hurt to try, eh?]


'Night all,

Michael

[pescifish]

Good luck. :)
It all sounds like you have some good thinking going on. I hope this weekend is filled with wonderful walks in the woods and many things you like.

[HelenM]

Hi Michael,

I've been following this thread and I'm sorry to read what you've been going through.

I think you'll get a better sense of whether anything else is going on with Sarah if you ask "What if you didn't have to make a choice? What if we decided we were going to stay in this area and I got the best job I could around here?"

Her reaction will give you a sense of whether she wants to be with you as much as you want to be with her.

If she does then this should be wonderful news to her.

If (sorry to speculate about the worst case) she was using "we won't be able to agree on where to live" as somewhat of an excuse to end the relationship, her reaction is likely to be more mixed.

Anyway, by saying that you might be able to take care of the reason she is giving for wanting to end the relationship, I think you'll find out whether that's the only reason or not.

If there are other reasons, it doesn't necessarily mean the relationship has to end; it depends what they are and how much each of you wants to resolve them.

Helen

[The Lone Ranger]

Well, it was an interesting weekend, and a pretty good one, for the most part.

I went up to Spokane on Saturday to see Sarah. We talked for awhile, but really about anything but us. Still, we really enjoyed seeing each other.

Eventually, we decided to go out somewhere for a walk. We walked for several miles, during which time she told me in great detail about her “breakup” with one of her closest friends (we’ll call her “Tricia”). Sarah and Tricia have known each other for almost 20 years. I’ve actually met Tricia, who strikes me as a perfectly decent person, but very narrow-minded.

Sarah tells me that in all the years they’ve known each other, she and Tricia have never actually disagreed on anything. More precisely, they’ve never had a disagreement of such magnitude that Sarah felt it necessary to actually confront Tricia about it and say “I disagree” or words to that effect.

So, it seems that a few weeks ago, Tricia said some things that Sarah disagreed with, and furthermore that she thought were somewhat rude. Specifically, Sarah has a “Kerry” bumper-sticker on her car and Tricia is a die-hard “Bush” supporter, and Tricia made some rather unkind remarks about anyone who would vote for Kerry. This upset Sarah, especially since Tricia knows full-well that Sarah has the Kerry sticker on her car, and has even commented on it (disparagingly). Sarah told Tricia that she didn’t appreciate the comment, and Tricia apparently became very upset.

Sarah showed me some of the e-mails she has received from Tricia about the incident, and they’re quite interesting. Tricia makes her anger quite clear, but what seems to stand out to me in the e-mails is that Tricia is angry not because she thinks Sarah was rude or anything, but because Sarah dared to disagree with her.


Anyway, it seems that this has had a pretty negative impact upon Sarah. Tricia has accused her, at least indirectly, of being “stupid” (why else support Kerry?) and implied that she’s not a good person. Tricia certainly seems to know precisely which buttons to push in order to trigger Sarah’s already low self-esteem. So, Sarah has been half-convinced over the past few weeks that she’s not “good enough” or “smart enough” to be “worthy.” She’s hinted before that she worries that I’ll somehow get “bored” with her, and/or conclude that she’s not “smart enough” or “good enough” for me. (Nonsense!) Tricia apparently took that nagging self-doubt and got it going full blast.

So, the upshot is that Sarah had pretty much become convinced that just as her closest friend had declared her unworthy of further attention, surely I would too. I’ve assured her in no uncertain terms that this is not the case, and that no matter what else may happen, I am not going to leave her or think of her as someone who is unworthy of my friendship and respect.


The last time Sarah and I had been together, this had been preying on her mind. I’m not completely unobservant, as it happens, and I could tell that something was definitely bothering her. So, I asked her on a couple of occasions if something was wrong, but she said that there wasn’t – it was only that she wasn’t feeling well. So, I let it be. I figured that when and if she wanted to talk about it, I’d certainly be more than willing to listen.

Now me, I was brought up with the New England sensibility that it’s rude at best to ask personal questions, and if someone tells you “there’s nothing wrong” or “I don’t want to talk about it,” it’s wrong to press them further on the issue. The proper response is to immediately change the subject.

Sarah assures me that this is not the proper way to behave, and that I should have pressed harder. She very-much did want to talk about the situation between her and Tricia, and my failure to recognize this and bring it up only deepened her feelings of “abandonment.” (She freely admits that this isn’t an especially rational attitude, but there it is.)



Well anyway. The upshot is that she’s feeling much better now, not so paranoid that I’m going to abandon her, and so not feeling like she needs to be pre-emptive about it. She’s still not at all sure she wants to deal with the possibility of having to choose between me and her family, but for now we’ve agreed that it’s best to take things as they come. We’ll continue to see each other, but with the understanding that we may be going our own separate ways in the not-so-distant future. In the meantime though, we can continue to enjoy our time together.

[Scotty]

Very good. I am happy to hear this.

-Scott

[beyelzu]

michael,

I am glad things are better for you now.

on the whole asking someone if something is bothering them thing.


I always give people 2 chances. is something bothering ou, are you sure,?

and that is pretty much it.

so I really identify with you on that note.

[HelenM]

I asked her on a couple of occasions if something was wrong, but she said that there wasn’t – it was only that she wasn’t feeling well. So, I let it be. I figured that when and if she wanted to talk about it, I’d certainly be more than willing to listen.

Now me, I was brought up with the New England sensibility that it’s rude at best to ask personal questions, and if someone tells you “there’s nothing wrong” or “I don’t want to talk about it,” it’s wrong to press them further on the issue. The proper response is to immediately change the subject.

Sarah assures me that this is not the proper way to behave, and that I should have pressed harder. She very-much did want to talk about the situation between her and Tricia, and my failure to recognize this and bring it up only deepened her feelings of “abandonment.” (She freely admits that this isn’t an especially rational attitude, but there it is.)

I guess you'll know next time to push her harder.

I think it's a common problem with women and men that a woman, instead of telling a man what she wants, expects him men to figure it out and gets upset when he doesn't, which invariably is going to happen since men aren't mind readers. Things would go much more smoothly if she would resign herself to the reality "No, he really doesn't know what I want until I tell him!" and just tell him.

I suppose this might be true of men and women too.

Well anyway. The upshot is that she’s feeling much better now, not so paranoid that I’m going to abandon her, and so not feeling like she needs to be pre-emptive about it. She’s still not at all sure she wants to deal with the possibility of having to choose between me and her family, but for now we’ve agreed that it’s best to take things as they come. We’ll continue to see each other, but with the understanding that we may be going our own separate ways in the not-so-distant future. In the meantime though, we can continue to enjoy our time together.

I'm glad the weekend went well and that you have sorted out what was going on currently even though you haven't made any long-term decisions yet.

Helen

[livius drusus]

I used to require chasing as well, but only when in a silent fury. Sarah had something else going on entirely. Man am I glad that "friend" has shown her true colors. Who knows how much worse it could have been later on when y'all have to make the tough decisions.

I'm really happy for you, Michael. This is so much more reasonable an arrangement, and the experience has lent you some valuable insight into her personality and needs. Congratulations for the present and I'll keep my fingers crossed for the future. :)

[seebs]

Definitely good news!

[viscousmemories]

Very good news. I'm glad to hear things are looking up, Michael. Congratulations. :yup:

[Ymir's blood]

I think it's a common problem with women and men that a woman, instead of telling a man what she wants, expects him men to figure it out and gets upset when he doesn't, which invariably is going to happen since men aren't mind readers.
I knew you'd say that. :wink:

[Socratoad]

Michael, Im glad that you found out what was bothering her. If you have serious intentions towards this woman, and I'm quite sure you do. Please have a long quiet talk and explain that lovers in order to fully appreciate the relationship should, in fact I would say MUST be each others best friend. Confiding and sharing everything, the good and the bad. Anything else is just game-playing and will never be satisfactory over any length of time.

So sayeth the Toad ( the voice of experience)

[Godless Dave]

Please have a long quiet talk and explain that lovers in order to fully appreciate the relationship should, in fact I would say MUST be each others best friend. Confiding and sharing everything, the good and the bad. Anything else is just game-playing and will never be satisfactory over any length of time.
Agreed. Personally I hate that shit. One of the awesome things about my current girlfriend is she means what she says and says what she means.

[Cool Hand]

Agreed. Personally I hate that shit. One of the awesome things about my current girlfriend is she means what she says and says what she means.

That's a great quality in a girlfriend. Just as important to me is that she accept that what I say is what I mean and that I mean what I say.

Guess What I'm Thinking and What Are You Thinking are two of the cruelest games ever.

Cool Hand

[seebs]

BTW, go back and read pz's comments again. They are excellent.

Family matters more than job. You can sit on the floor of a two-bedroom apartment playing gin rummy with beat up old cards because you can't even afford new cards, and be happy. Or you can live alone in a large house and be miserable.