Great Wall of China Inspired Roman Builders?

[livius drusus]

It seems that some scholars (http://english.people.com.cn/200512/20/eng20051220_229569.html) think the engineers and builders who made the Roman Limes (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/430/) might have been inspired by the Great Wall.

Although there is no evidence that the two constructions had any direct connections, indirect influence from the Great Wall on the Roman Limes is certain, said Visy Zsolt, a professor with the Department of Ancient History and Archaeology of the University of Pecs in Hungary.

[...]

Archaeologists have found almost the same methods were used for providing signs at the Great Wall and the Roman Limes.

Visy said another factor that should not be neglected is that the western most sector of the Great Wall was built in the last decades of the 2nd century BC, during the strong rule of Emperor Wu of the Han Dynasty.

"The Chinese Empire seems to be interested in Western connections, at least in Central Asia," Visy said.

The trade connections between the two empires were quite intensive in the first century and at least in the first half of the second one. "It is worth noting that the north line of the Silk Road was opened also at the beginning of the 1st century AD," Visy said.

In other words, it's tenuous as hell, completely speculative, pretty much unsupportable by anything but the vaguest circumstantial evidence, but it's an excellent occasion for me and wei yau to raise a glass to each other so I'm posting it anyway. :ahoy:

[wei yau]

:prost:

How wonderful to have a link other than Marco Polo. It is very tenuous, but like liv, I'll take it wherever I can get it.

I often daydream of a world in which the Han and the Romans rule the world until present-time. Two gigantic empries stuck in a centuries-old cold war that turns occassionally hot.

[godfry n. glad]

I'm dubious.

From my understanding, there was very limited contact between the Chinese empire and the Roman empire. The article on the limes does not indicate that they were begun in 2nd century CE or completed in 2nd century CE.

First evidence of the diffusion of Chinese products is usually dated to 53 BCE, when Roman legions met the mounted warriors of the Parthian empire at Carrhae, on the banks of the Euphrates, in upper Syria. The Parthian warriors unfurled their silk banners at the battle. At that time, there was no place silk could come from, other than China. But, there were no Chinese. No walls. The approximately 5000 Roman legion captives were reputedly sent into slavery in trans-Oxus Sogdiana, where they may have met Chinese military or diplomatic representatives. However, remember they were slaves and it was unlikely that the Chinese would have brought any masons with them.

The Great Wall of China was actually a series of smaller walls constructed by various kingdoms prior to 202 BCE, when the king of Chin, who became the First Emperor, defeated all other kingdoms to unite the empire. During his reign, massive numbers of Chinese laborers were conscripted to unite all the various walls into one complete wall. It's furthest reach west (near modern Dunhuang) was still at a considerable distance from central Asia, much less Rome. The Han dynasty, which followed and ruled for approximately 450 years, didn't do nearly as much wall building as the First Emperor, whose reign lasted a couple of decades.

I'd be more interested in the description of the "building methods" which this particular scholar seems to be resting so much of his case upon. The "some scholars" link is not working for me.

[godfry n. glad]

Hey, wei...

Marco Polo is not the only, just the best attested. There were earlier contacts, most notably during the Crusades, when the Pope sent emissaries to treat with the Mongol emperors of China's Yuan dynasty.

I'll have to plunge into my library to see whether I can put some names and dates to earlier contact. Still, the earlier attested contact was considerably later than the second century CE lime building being discussed in the OP.

[wei yau]

Hey, wei...

Marco Polo is not the only, just the best attested. There were earlier contacts, most notably during the Crusades, when the Pope sent emissaries to treat with the Mongol emperors of China's Yuan dynasty.

I'll have to plunge into my library to see whether I can put some names and dates to earlier contact. Still, the earlier attested contact was considerably later than the second century CE lime building being discussed in the OP.

You know, man. I love you. I really and truly do. You're the like the older brother I never had. The older brother who's more Chinese than I am and is the absolute darling of mom and dad. It's not my fault they didn't teach me more about being Chinese. I'm not less of a dutiful son because I know dick about Chinese history.

And just cause mom and dad like you best doesn't mean you can rub my face in it every freaking time. It's not like you're so freakin' perfect, you know. I could tell mom and dad a whole bunch of stuff you did and we'll see if you're still Number One Son, then. Buddy!









hmm, I might have some unresolved parent issues. I'll have to talk to my counselor. But, seriously, thank you godfry, I really do appreciate and respect the knowledge you have about Chinese history

[godfry n. glad]

I'll tell you, wei... If your parents saw me, they'd renounce me as any kind of son. Just take a look at me standing on the Heavenly Center Stone in Beijing:

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/gallery/showimage.php?i=123&c=17

Red hair, blue eyes... they'd have thought I was some kind of freak of nature. :giggle:

[livius drusus]

I often daydream of a world in which the Han and the Romans rule the world until present-time. Two gigantic empries stuck in a centuries-old cold war that turns occassionally hot.

That. Is. So. Cool! Have you ever considered writing an alternate history kind of thing? Also, have you seen Firefly and Serenity yet?

[wei yau]

That. Is. So. Cool! Have you ever considered writing an alternate history kind of thing? Also, have you seen Firefly and Serenity yet?

The vast amount of research I'd have to do for such an alternate history keeps me from trying. But, it would be so cool.

I've not seen either, though I understand that in that particular future, the Chinese are pretty big players.

Hurrah for the Han!

[Ensign Steve]

I like Chinese.

[wei yau]

They only come up to your knees.

[godfry n. glad]

I've invited a friend of mine who is an Asian scholar of types. I hope he'll show up. I think he told me he actually researched the possibility of the Han empire army meeting the Roman empire army in a battle....plus, he's an extensive background in Mongol studies and Taoist studies (published in the latter).

In his article commenting upon Frances Woods' Did Marco Polo Go to China?, he notes:

One of the Woods' arguments is that Polo doesn't mention the Great Wall of China. However, the wall we know was built by the succeeding Ming Dynasty, after the Mongol Yuan dynasty had collapsed, and Waldron has argued that the "Great Wall" as such did not exist before the Ming. There were, in fact, military walls in existence at the time of the Mongol conquest, but they were differently located than the Ming wall and much less impressive. Furthermore, since these walls were built to protect China from the Mongols, the Mongols tore many of them down.

His source:

Waldron, Arthur, The Great Wall of China, Cambridge, 1990. (A history of the northern walls and the Great Wall; Waldron doubts that the Great Wall existed as such before the Ming dynasty.)

[livius drusus]

I've invited a friend of mine who is an Asian scholar of types. I hope he'll show up. I think he told me he actually researched the possibility of the Han empire army meeting the Roman empire army in a battle....plus, he's an extensive background in Mongol studies and Taoist studies (published in the latter).

:crossed: :excited: :hyper: :excited: :hyper: :excited: :hyper: :crossed:

[Johnny Pneumatic]

They only come up to your knees.


So? As long as none put pee pee in my Coke we'll stay cool.

[godfry n. glad]

I've invited a friend of mine who is an Asian scholar of types. I hope he'll show up. I think he told me he actually researched the possibility of the Han empire army meeting the Roman empire army in a battle....plus, he's an extensive background in Mongol studies and Taoist studies (published in the latter).

:crossed: :excited: :hyper: :excited: :hyper: :excited: :hyper: :crossed:

He's probably "off the net" for the time being. This guy is a superb specimen of arcane and erudite interests. He made me a member of his "middle aged scruffy white guys society". My bet is he doesn't join us, but provides insight for me to pass on...

Anyway, we can continue this in his absence, for sure.

The whole question of diffusion from India to Eurasia via central Asia is an interesting one. Buddhism obviously diffused out of the south Asian subcontinent into central Asia and then into China. About the 3rd or 4th century CE. (6th century CE brought the big diffusion of Buddhism into China thanks to imperial patronage, both from central Asia and out of Palembang across the South China Sea.) There are records of Chinese journeys to and from India, but not much further afield.* It didn't seem to spread west, though.

Evidence for diffusion of religious ideas also exists in the presence of christianity amongst the Mongols of the 13th century. The presence of Manichaeism and Nestorian christians is quite strong during the period prior to the spread of Islam into central Asia in the 8th - 10th centuries CE. Nestorians and the Manichaens were from the 3rd - 6th century Levant. Manichaeism enjoyed a brief efflorescence in the Mediterranean, but spread eastward and along with Nestorian christianity, was nurtured in Sogdiana and the central Asian peoples. Genghis Khan's mother was reputedly a Nestorian, and Nestorian communities were known to have existed in Fujian, in far southwest China into the sixteenth century CE. Jews had communities in far China before any christians.

Direct contact is another matter entirely. Was it possible? Yes. Likely? Perhaps. Known? Very little is known of direct contact between China and Europe until after the fall of the western Roman empire. The Silk Roads between China along the Yellow River in the north and the eastern end of the Black Sea and the Levant are ancient. :camel: Goods have moved along it for over 2000 years. Ideas could move as well, and did. There are two common misconcepts about the Silk Road. One is that merchants moved from one end to the other. Although possible, it's not attested in western records until well into the christian period. Goods moved along the Silk Road by being exchanged by middle men along the way. The Chinese sold their silk and tea to the Xi Xia, the Xi Xia sold it to the Uighers, the Uighers sold it to the Sogdians, the Sogdians sold it to the Persians, the Persians sold it to the Mesopotamian and Levantine peoples, who sold it to Europeans. (The Chinese met the Persians in Sodgiana during the expansionist T'ang dynasty.) Western goods moved the other way. As you might expect, trade was not always smooth. The other common misconception is that goods flowed back and forth continually. Not so. Often, goods never completed the trip. Acrimonious relations between neigbhoring peoples often closed the roads. China itself broke into smaller kingdoms a couple of times, for extended periods, too. Very few people went from one end to the other. Aside from the usual language barriers one would face along that distance, brigands and bribery were common features. Safety was a major concern. This is why the Mongol expansion of the 13th - 14th centuries CE are so important. They established control over nearly the entire length of the Silk Roads, a Pax Mongolica. Goods, people and ideas moved more easily than ever before... Marco Polo visited the Kublai Khan, grandson of the Mongol conquerer, Genghis.

In the wake of the collapse of the Mongol empire, bubonic plague spread throughout the Afro-Eurasian continent mass, and international trade slowed to a nearly non-existant crawl.

This is a roundabout way to say that I don't think many people went from one end of the Eurasia continent to the other with any frequency at all until the Mongols of the 13th century.

Lest anybody think I have all this readily at hand, I consulted:

Old World Encounters: Cross-Cultural Contacts and Exchanges in Pre-Modern Times, by Jerry H. Bentley, Oxford Press, NY, 1993.

Religions of the Silk Road: Overland Trade and Cultural Exchange from Antiquity to the Fifteenth Century, by Richard C. Foltz, St. Martin's Press, NY, 1999.

Note: When referring to the smiley "horde", I do so wittingly.


* Admiral Zhuyang, at the beginning of the Ming dynasty took a fleet as far as the northeast African coast. Once returned, the dynasts forbade any more and China closed in upon itself.

[Carnivale Ed]

I often daydream of a world in which the Han and the Romans rule the world until present-time. Two gigantic empries stuck in a centuries-old cold war that turns occassionally hot.
Han fighting the Empire? Now where have I heard that before?

[godfry n. glad]

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/gallery/files/7/0/teshrabatprofile_211811.jpg

This is Tesh Rabat, in Kyrgyzstan, about 100 km north of China, in the Tian Shan mountains.

It's called a "caravanasai", a refuge for merchants crossing the mountains along the Silk Road. It is pre-Islamic, so prior to the 9th century. It's dated to somewhere in the 6th century, if not before. Our guide made a point of noting that there was an ongoing controversy amongst the archeologists. There is, as is clear to see by going up any hillside above the structre, no place, nor has there ever been any place, for animal containment. No enclosures or outbuildings. They think it was likely a Nestorian or Manichaen retreat...surely serving as temporary stay for wayward travellers, but hardly a "caravanasai".

It seems to me that this is evidence of western influence this far east fairly early. But not Roman.

(And, yes, I'm aware of the Bactrian Greek presence in the wake of Alexander. Bactria is just to the west-southwest of where this structure is located. Gandhara is to the southwest. Both through huge collections of mountains like the Pamirs, the Hindu Kush, the Himalaya, and the Tian Shan.)

[Sarpedon]

How hard is it to come up with the idea of building a big long wall to keep unpleasant people out?

The Greeks built long walls, the egyptians built long walls, its not that difficult. It amazes me that anyone would suggest the same civilization that built such a complicated structure as the colleseum, and roads stretching thousands of miles, couldn't come up with the idea of a big dumb wall by themselves.

[godfry n. glad]

How hard is it to come up with the idea of building a big long wall to keep unpleasant people out?

The Greeks built long walls, the egyptians built long walls, its not that difficult. It amazes me that anyone would suggest the same civilization that built such a complicated structure as the colleseum, and roads stretching thousands of miles, couldn't come up with the idea of a big dumb wall by themselves.

Yeah.

I'm still curious as to what "building techniques" are being corrolated. The Chinese distinctly built walls, usually around towns. They also built long running walls in futile attempts to keep the nomads out of the agricultural areas. Which time period are they comparing? The Han built walls as far west as Dunhuang. Here's what that wall looks like now:

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/gallery/files/7/0/x2ttransitgreatwallremnant.jpg

This is probably in the realm of 2000 years old. It is not built from stone. It is rammed earth walls and the tower/gatehouse was probably of unfired mud brick. This portion was not updated by the Ming dynasty, after the collapse of the Mongol Yuan dynasty. The Ming Great Wall looks like this:

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/gallery/files/7/0/greatwall2.jpg

It is 14th century CE or later.

What is being compared? How were the Limes constructed? They look to be low rock wall with moat and pallisade. Even at that, they are monumental constructions with the effect of defining frontiers of control.

[Leesifer]

Nothing to add, except this is a fascinating thread.

(Oh, and a friend of ours walked part of the Great Wall in October for charity and brought us back a piece of the wall! Yes! I have a piece of the Great Wall of China in my house)

[godfry n. glad]

Yeah... I'm loving it. :cool:

I'd like to see it continue, so I guess I'll take the position of thinking it unlikely that Chinese wall-building techniques had little to do with the Roman Limes. And vice versa. :soapbox:

I'll try to get ahold of Waldron's book on the Great Wall of China (Summit borrowing, here I come!), if somebody else will try to run down Visy Zsolt's piece on the comparisons of the Limes to the Great Wall. (That link still doesn't work for me...but I did find a 3-D rendering "fly-over" of the Roman Limes.)

Deal?

[livius drusus]

I'm on it, sir. :yessir:

[godfry n. glad]

(Oh, and a friend of ours walked part of the Great Wall in October for charity and brought us back a piece of the wall! Yes! I have a piece of the Great Wall of China in my house)

Kewl. That is no small feat. I climbed the Wall in early May 2003. It is no picnic for a fat old fart like me to get to the top of the wall, much less walk the wall. To "walk the Wall" would rather be like walking the steps of several huge American football stadiums, up and down each set of stairs. Look at my picture of the modern wall again. Stairmaster Supremo!

My claim to fame is that "I barfed on the Great Wall". I really should get that teeshirt printed. I made my first mistake overseas that day; I ate an apple without peeling it.

[godfry n. glad]

Here's Gan Yin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gan_Ying), probably the first to contact Romans. Sent as an emissary.

"Great Western Sea"...The Black Sea, or the Mediterranean? The eastern reaches of the Black Sea would still have Roman influence, having taken over the Greek interests there for centuries prior. It seems to me that some very famous names were exiled to the Black Sea.

Hmmmm....

Still, this emissary was sent 97 CE, according to the piece. The end of the first century. When were the Limes built again? All in the second century? That's pretty assured upon the basis of a one-time meeting from an emissary from a nation literally on the other side of the world. It rather sounds as though Gan Ying showed up and said, "Hmmm...Impressive, but we have a wall (that you build this way) to keep out the northern barbarians.

There is the thesis, as well, that the Han success in keeping the Xiungnu out of China and continually pushing them north and west, pushed them into other nomad space and they subsequently pushed west, pushing those west of them ahead of them. Ergo, the fourth and fifth centuries see the movement of Gothic, Avar, Vandal and nomadic tribal peoples pushed into Roman Europe and the collapse of the western Roman empire. The success of the Han was the destruction of Rome.

[godfry n. glad]

The book is on order from Eastern Oregon University. I should have in my hot little hands it by mid-week.

Does anybody have a cite for the published work of this Visy Zsolt?

I might be able to access an article he's written, if it's in an academic journal.

I don't have ready access to history bibliographic databases, so I can't readily look this guy up.

[godfry n. glad]

Okay... I've got Waldron's The Great Wall of China in hand.

I've also heard back from my friend, who is attending to family details in the wake of parental death. He offered up this:

I think that the Hungarian guy is restating Teggart's thesis in Rome and
China, according to which barbarian invasions on the two ends of the Silk Road were coordinated -- when trade money didn't come through, the desperate nomads invaded Rome or China, thus interrupting trade further and triggering disruptions on the other end of the road in a reinforcing pattern. Wall building would likewise be coordinated.

I tried to read Teggart's book and wasn't very impressed. His grand theory was supported by sketchy data -- this is true of the world-system theorists Wallerstein and Gunder Frank too, I think. In the end he had a list of eastern disruptions and a list of western disruptions, but his claim that the latter followed on the former didn't seem to be proved. In particular, there should have been a regular lag between event type A and event type B -- one, two, or three years depending on the time taken to do the whole road -- but as far as I could tell events B only occurred sometime after events A.

I think that Teggart is honored for his intentions rather than his accomplishments. I can't say I read his book carefully, but I was unimpressed.

Waldron's book The Great Wall of China is recommended, though I think that he overstates his case by quite a bit. I think he's right, though, that the enormous Great Wall we know was a "never again" Ming response to the Mongols. The Khitan Liao dynasty had a system of walls and forts far into Mongol territory (not where the Great Wall is), but the Mongols overwhelmed them when the Jurchen Chin overthrew Liao, and the Chin never won that area back from their temporary allies.

Has anything turned up on Zsolt?

[godfry n. glad]

I'm nearly done with the Waldron book.

His position is that there really was no concept of "The Great Wall" in China until at late in the Ming dynasty(early 17th century). He notes that there were walls, or even "long walls" in China prior to the unifying Ch'in dynasty (3rd century BCE).

According to Waldron, wall-building in China has been sporadic throughout its history. Wall-building was one of three major means of dealing with the northern nomads, the others being assertive military posturing and economic accomodation. The latter two means are typified as being far more effective in bringing and maintaining peace and wall-building was a measure used when other means had failed. Waldron also suggests that it was the failure of Chinese imperial policy that resulted in the building of walls. He notes that the walls have never been complete in their attempts to wall out the mounted nomads and the Chinese defenses always had to deal with the highly mobile mounted nomadic raiders who would ride around the walls to threaten Beijing and Xi'an.

Waldron also suggests that because it was only when other measures failed that the Chinese engaged in wall-building, that when the Chinese empire was in it's expansionist phases during the Han, T'ang and Yuan dynasties, they did not engage in wall-building because their military was successful in pushing the disorganized nomads back away from the frontiers. Such would have been the case during the period of Gan Yin, in the latter Han. It is highly likely that Gan would not have recommended wall-building as an effective defense against nomadic raiders.

So... I still suspect that in any contact between the Han empire and the Roman empire would not have been likely to have suggested that building walls was an effective means of defense against barbarians. The Han experience was that aggressive military initiatives, along with preferential trade/tribute to pit one tribe against another, was the effective means of dealing with barbarians.

I think Professor Zsolt is more hopeful than helpful.

[MonCapitan2002]

That. Is. So. Cool! Have you ever considered writing an alternate history kind of thing? Also, have you seen Firefly and Serenity yet?

The vast amount of research I'd have to do for such an alternate history keeps me from trying. But, it would be so cool.

I've not seen either, though I understand that in that particular future, the Chinese are pretty big players.

Hurrah for the Han!
They are one of only two big players. The other are Americans.