Eroticism, yaoi, and raising the bar.

[seebs]

My free-thought is that this stuff is unrealistic, dream-like, similar to pedophilia for fucked-up women, inexperience virgins, and women who aren't satisifed with what they got or don't know how to use what they've got well as in, make the most of it.

Further, it is my experience and understanding that once you start screwing around with this eroticism, the problem is that we become desensitized and always have to raise the bar higher and higher and higher. It is crap like this that leads people to be unreasonable, be addicted, I think it has the tendency to lead to dehumanizing, and it also leads some to break laws and do terrible, disgusting and degrading things.

This material had no place in a thread full of pointless wank fests and "That's not what I said" "Oh yes it is".

So, I'm resurrecting it here.

I do agree that a lot of shounen-ai/yaoi is really pretty fucked up. Not all, but... A lot of it is trying to hit combinations of buttons which are not hit by anything in nature.

On the other hand, I don't get the thing about eroticism you describe at all. My current theory is that this empirically happens to some people, but I have no idea why. I think there's a big difference between finding things you are comfortable with and enjoy, and actively seeking out the thrill of crossing boundaries; the latter can result in the problems you describe, the former doesn't seem to. YMMV.

[dave_a]

My free-thought is that this stuff is unrealistic, dream-like, similar to pedophilia for fucked-up women, inexperience virgins, and women who aren't satisifed with what they got or don't know how to use what they've got well as in, make the most of it.

Further, it is my experience and understanding that once you start screwing around with this eroticism, the problem is that we become desensitized and always have to raise the bar higher and higher and higher. It is crap like this that leads people to be unreasonable, be addicted, I think it has the tendency to lead to dehumanizing, and it also leads some to break laws and do terrible, disgusting and degrading things.

This material had no place in a thread full of pointless wank fests and "That's not what I said" "Oh yes it is".

So, I'm resurrecting it here.

I do agree that a lot of shounen-ai/yaoi is really pretty fucked up. Not all, but... A lot of it is trying to hit combinations of buttons which are not hit by anything in nature.

On the other hand, I don't get the thing about eroticism you describe at all. My current theory is that this empirically happens to some people, but I have no idea why. I think there's a big difference between finding things you are comfortable with and enjoy, and actively seeking out the thrill of crossing boundaries; the latter can result in the problems you describe, the former doesn't seem to. YMMV.

I agree with both of you. Porn is porn as I see it. I think one *can* become desensitised to real life sex/relationships and I think one *can* get into a spiral where it has to become ever increasingly extreme, but I don't believe this has to be the case nor do I believe it always is.

I look at it like drinking. Some become alcoholics who cause major problems in their and other people's lives and keep on drinking. Others go on a course where minor problems begin occuring and they modify their behavior before things get out of control. Others never seem to have a problem at all.

I don't think that yaoi/slash/gay erotica is more or less likely to cause problems than any other form of porn. To each their own.

[seebs]

Honestly, I think Beloved Spouse has gotten a lot more stable and calm since she got interested in yaoi. Although I think a lot of that is coincidence; people entering their early 30s are pretty likely to be starting to settle down anyway.

But I don't see any kind of bar-raising going on. I'm the same way; the only time when porn had that addictive quality was when I thought it was a big deal. Now it's pink pixels, and I'll look at it if someone shows it to me, but I mostly get bored. I clicked on a few of the links in the "favorite porn site" thread, but I didn't stay interested; I went and looked up reference specs for PowerPC embedded systems instead.

So, for me at least, porn is not addicting in that way.

[Adora]

I was going to answer sweeties post in the original topic, but since it's been dragged over here, and I really have lost interest in the other one now, I'll do it here.

Further, the yaoi comics didn't really show anything but allusions or all the activity blurred over. I understand that there are laws, however, what I find is that any part of it that would represent real life, the reality of a man's ass and others, isn't there which is probably why the comics are preferrable and why young boys are preferrable.

I could link to some harder ones, but I have a feeling this would just worsen your perceptions about the genre.

"Young Boys/men" are preferable because the target audience tends to be teenage/young-adult females. You're not going to write stories then about 40 yr olds for them, now are you?

So, because these are just technically young boys being represented as men in many cases, I liken it all to pedophilia.

No, actually, they're not. The same as with Henry Jenkin's observations about the androgynisation of males in slash, the same thing happens with Yaoi. This isn't paedophillia, just a fantasy. Big. Fucking. Difference, Mr Wertham.

My free-thought is that this stuff is unrealistic, dream-like, similar to pedophilia for fucked-up women, inexperience virgins, and women who aren't satisifed with what they got or don't know how to use what they've got well as in, make the most of it.

Isn't it wonderful that nothing is free in life... And do you cast the same bullshit statements at males who consume porn? Or is this just another double standard?

Further, it is my experience and understanding that once you start screwing around with this eroticism, the problem is that we become desensitized and always have to raise the bar higher and higher and higher.

Yeah, because as we know, the world's a sliding scale, and people's opinions are never wrong, and all homosexuality leads to paedophillia, not to mention their marriage leading to the breakdown of society, and being an atheist leads to chaos and disorder in the streets.

[seebs]

If you want your boys to look like they're prepubescent, that's pedophilia, whether or not you're ACTUALLY boinking kids. If it's the bodies of kids that turn you on, well, that's the definition of pedophilia. Not ever acting on it doesn't change the underlying desires.

[Adora]

But it's not.

Not all BoyLove is shoutacon. Not all shoutacon is yaoi. Not all yaoi is shoutacon. If you don't know what the difference is, you have nothing to base those comments on.

It's as fucking stupid as saying all the otaku in Japan who watch Love Hina are Miyazaki cases, or that men want women to shave their legs for some prepubescent "paedophillic" fantasy.

It's not a "prepubescentisation" (if I can make up a word here). It's an androgynisation for a target audience. It doesn't happen because people get turned on because they look like young men, it happens because, as we have discussed, much of the target audience use the roles as changing and dynamic, and so there has to be an androgynisation for the female to do this within the narrative. Though there is some of the genre out there that doesn't do this, if they're too much of manly-men, there's no space for ambiguity, and simply put, where's the attraction or fun in that?

[wade-w]

It doesn't happen because people get turned on because they look like young men, it happens because, as we have discussed, much of the target audience use the roles as changing and dynamic, and so there has to be an androgynisation for the female to do this within the narrative.

Sorry, but this sentence makes no sense to me. What is "use the roles as changing and dynamic" supposed to mean?

And they don't look like young men. They look like young girls. That's NOT what androgynous means.

[seebs]

But it's not.

Not all BoyLove is shoutacon. Not all shoutacon is yaoi. Not all yaoi is shoutacon. If you don't know what the difference is, you have nothing to base those comments on.

How about this: I don't care what the little sticker says. If you touch yourself because you get all wet over images of a couple of obviously prepubescent boys getting it on, you're a pedophile. Pure and simple. Doesn't matter whether the story says they're 21 or not; if they are intentionally drawn to look prepubescent, and that's what gets you hot, that is the definition of pedophilia; getting excited over kids.

Now, in many cases, it's not about "kids"; it's about androgynous adults. That's fine; I don't think that's pedophilia.

But... There exists yaoi material which is shotacon (for the bystanders: prepubescent boys). Getting off on that is definitionally pedophilia. There's no possible way to get out of it being pedophila to be turned on by the notion of kids having sex. That's what pedophilia is.

So, the only comment I'm making is that, if someone is getting off specifically on the similarity of characters to prepubescent boys, or their portrayal as prepubescent boys, then that's a pedophile trait, by definition.

By the way, what do you make of Banana Fish? Japanese art, drawn in Japan, and yet, very little of the androgyny that apparently defines the field.

It's not a "prepubescentisation" (if I can make up a word here). It's an androgynisation for a target audience.

As you note, it's not all one thing. There's no one "it" here. Are you saying that Sublunary is focused on androgyny, not age, when it makes a big deal out of having the super-Uke be 13 years old?

It doesn't happen because people get turned on because they look like young men, it happens because, as we have discussed, much of the target audience use the roles as changing and dynamic, and so there has to be an androgynisation for the female to do this within the narrative.

And that's fine, and has nothing to do with the cases where it's really about the characters being, or at least looking like, they're underage.

Though there is some of the genre out there that doesn't do this, if they're too much of manly-men, there's no space for ambiguity, and simply put, where's the attraction or fun in that?

I fall back on "Everything I Need To Know, I Learned At Con": "Not all androgyny is alluring."

To quote a woman who has actually touched a penis:

"Where's the attraction" --? About five inches south of the navel, honey.

I guess... I don't think people need to be drawn unrecognizable to have ambiguous gender roles. I think the guys in Fake are perfectly plausible, despite the fact that they have some definite masculine traits. (Although I think it's funny that Bikky's clearly more masculine than both of 'em put together.)

I think one of the reasons this genre has so much variety is simply that women vary a great deal. Some women want "men" in fantasies and erotica (or just plain porn) to be toned down a bit, less threatening, less controlling. Some would rather leave them pretty much like real men. Some want them turned up a notch or two.

I don't think the genre is entirely limited to one specific attitude about what kind of gay sex should be represented. I personally find the stuff that has actual men in it at least tolerable. I mean, I'm straight, and I'd never fuck anything as gratuitously feminine as a lot of shounen-ai characters. They're not men, they're not even women; they're girls. Not interested.

But this is getting into rather a long digression. Obviously, different people have different taste in erotica, which is fine by me. I'm just pointing out that I don't think your personal interests should be seen as defining the genre; even insofar as you're a typical member of some demographic, there are other demographics targeted by yaoi and shounen-ai, and the material targeted at them is part of the genre too, even if it isn't what Adora likes.

[Adora]

if they are intentionally drawn to look prepubescent

They're not. That's what I said. They're drawn to look androgynous. Huge difference. Just because you think this makes them look "prepubescent", doesn't mean it does in the rest of the consumers minds.

Shoutacon (the rather IMPORTANT "little sticker") is a whole other kettle of fish. There's intention there.

By the way, what do you make of Banana Fish? Japanese art, drawn in Japan, and yet, very little of the androgyny that apparently defines the field.

The name rings a bell but I don't remember what it's connected to. Let me get back to your tomorrow when I do.

As you note, it's not all one thing. There's no one "it" here. Are you saying that Sublunary is focused on androgyny, not age, when it makes a big deal out of having the super-Uke be 13 years old?

Don't know. Haven't read it. Is it an actual manga on an online comic? Because I thought we were talking about the real stuff here.

And that's fine, and has nothing to do with the cases where it's really about the characters being, or at least looking like, they're underage.

Well, considering the generalisations you were making without defining between just yaoi and intended shoutacon, of course I had to make that statement.

I guess... I don't think people need to be drawn unrecognizable to have ambiguous gender roles. I think the guys in Fake are perfectly plausible, despite the fact that they have some definite masculine traits. (Although I think it's funny that Bikky's clearly more masculine than both of 'em put together.)

And yet, compared to "real men", the Fake boys are still very androgynous.

I'm just pointing out that I don't think your personal interests should be seen as defining the genre

And yet, yours do? You are the be-all and end-all on whether something looks prepubescent or not?

To quote my subconcious... "Suck my cock".

[dave_a]

How about this: I don't care what the little sticker says. If you touch yourself because you get all wet over images of a couple of obviously prepubescent boys getting it on, you're a pedophile. Pure and simple. Doesn't matter whether the story says they're 21 or not; if they are intentionally drawn to look prepubescent, and that's what gets you hot, that is the definition of pedophilia; getting excited over kids.

Well techincally no. Pedophilia is an adult having sexual relations with a child. Finding 2 non adults having sex erotic would be...actually I have no idea what it would be, but I don't think it would be pedophilia.
Then again pedo=child and philia = interest in so maybe it does equate.

Now, in many cases, it's not about "kids"; it's about androgynous adults. That's fine; I don't think that's pedophilia.

But... There exists yaoi material which is shotacon (for the bystanders: prepubescent boys). Getting off on that is definitionally pedophilia. There's no possible way to get out of it being pedophila to be turned on by the notion of kids having sex. That's what pedophilia is.

Funny thing is I think I was the first person to mention yaoi on this forum. It was in reference to a lost friend that I discovered was into yaoi and knowing nothing about it I did some google searches and found 'boy boy love' as a description and reached all the wrong conclusions. I have since been educated. Now are you telling me there is yaoi that is literally (underage) boy-boy love/sex? I mean why not? There is Snowwhite and the 7 dwarfs and then there is the porn version so...

It doesn't happen because people get turned on because they look like young men, it happens because, as we have discussed, much of the target audience use the roles as changing and dynamic, and so there has to be an androgynisation for the female to do this within the narrative.

I can relate to this. I looked into yaoi because I wanted to understand what my friend was into. I found the men looking much like women to allow me to appreciate the porn/erotica/whateveryouwannacallit. If it was 2 hairy, muscular men it would have been 'YUCK!' :puke:

The fact that gender was blurred allowed me to find at least a passing interest in a subject that would normally leave me cold.

The yaoi I have been exposed to has a romantic side to it so it would *seem* to me that the gender ambiguity allows for homo and hetero desires to be met either simultaneously or in an alternating fashion. 2 men, 2 women, 1 man-1 woman, whatever floats your boat at the time

It's flexible.

[seebs]

if they are intentionally drawn to look prepubescent

They're not. That's what I said. They're drawn to look androgynous. Huge difference. Just because you think this makes them look "prepubescent", doesn't mean it does in the rest of the consumers minds.

Shoutacon (the rather IMPORTANT "little sticker") is a whole other kettle of fish. There's intention there.

Er. See that little word "if" up above?

There exists boy-boy manga in which the characters are quite intentionally drawn to look prepubescent. If that's what does it for someone, that is definitionally pedophilia.

I am aware that much of it is, at least nominally, androgynous. Frankly, I don't think that "looking like little kids" is any kind of androgyny at all, but whatever.

By the way, what do you make of Banana Fish? Japanese art, drawn in Japan, and yet, very little of the androgyny that apparently defines the field.

The name rings a bell but I don't remember what it's connected to. Let me get back to your tomorrow when I do.

Okay.

I had been under the impression that it was considered a serious work in the field.

As you note, it's not all one thing. There's no one "it" here. Are you saying that Sublunary is focused on androgyny, not age, when it makes a big deal out of having the super-Uke be 13 years old?

Don't know. Haven't read it. Is it an actual manga on an online comic? Because I thought we were talking about the real stuff here.

Oh, it's an online comic.

But I don't see the distinction between "real stuff" and "online comic" as meaning anything at all. Things that are clearly done in the same style are part of the same genre, whether print or electronic.

And that's fine, and has nothing to do with the cases where it's really about the characters being, or at least looking like, they're underage.

Well, considering the generalisations you were making without defining between just yaoi and intended shoutacon, of course I had to make that statement.

I thought I was careful to use qualifiers, such as the "if..." above.

I guess... I don't think people need to be drawn unrecognizable to have ambiguous gender roles. I think the guys in Fake are perfectly plausible, despite the fact that they have some definite masculine traits. (Although I think it's funny that Bikky's clearly more masculine than both of 'em put together.)

And yet, compared to "real men", the Fake boys are still very androgynous.

Somewhat. But they don't look like boys; they look like adult men with really high cheekbones.

I'm just pointing out that I don't think your personal interests should be seen as defining the genre

And yet, yours do? You are the be-all and end-all on whether something looks prepubescent or not?

Nope. I never said I was.

I just observed that there are a lot of things which don't meet your definitions of the genres, that are nonetheless clearly in the genres. e.g., Banana Fish, which is clearly manga, clearly has gay sex in it, but doesn't do any androgyny.

[seebs]

Well techincally no. Pedophilia is an adult having sexual relations with a child. Finding 2 non adults having sex erotic would be...actually I have no idea what it would be, but I don't think it would be pedophilia.
Then again pedo=child and philia = interest in so maybe it does equate.

Exactly. Actually fucking kids is pederasty. Just getting off on the idea of kids and sex is pedophilia.

Funny thing is I think I was the first person to mention yaoi on this forum. It was in reference to a lost friend that I discovered was into yaoi and knowing nothing about it I did some google searches and found 'boy boy love' as a description and reached all the wrong conclusions. I have since been educated. Now are you telling me there is yaoi that is literally (underage) boy-boy love/sex? I mean why not? There is Snowwhite and the 7 dwarfs and then there is the porn version so...

Yeah, there really is boy/boy sex. And, I believe, some adult/child sex. Hey, it was really hot for the Greeks, and nothing has changed.

[Adora]

But I don't see the distinction between "real stuff" and "online comic" as meaning anything at all.

And now, we can finally see that we've come full circle, since this was the whole point that started this shite in the first place.

Bless.

Hey, it was really hot for the Greeks, and nothing has changed.

Except yaoi/BoyLove is consumed by a huge majority of women, not high-class men, oh, and then there's that whole "not real" thing as well.

Now are you telling me there is yaoi that is literally (underage) boy-boy love/sex?

Yes, and it's called shoutacon, and it's a minority subgenre. However, yaoi and BoyLove (what the genre that was once called "shounen ai" is called now, however, the term doesn't just apply to "boys". Can be men of whatever age) tends to get demonised into said minorities, much the same way the 80's reputation for manga and anime has demonised it into tentacles, schoolgirls and ultraviolence in many people's minds. *shrugs*

[seebs]

Except yaoi/BoyLove is consumed by a huge majority of women, not high-class men, oh, and then there's that whole "not real" thing as well.

Wait, do you mean "a majority of the consumers are women" or "the majority of women are consumers"?

[Adora]

Majority of consumers are women.

[Beth]

I saw some of seebs' wife's drawing a while back ( she is very talented)when I checked out his site. This was months ago. I did think some of the drawings were sexy, but I did not find them a turn on. But they were very interesting.

I do think adult male/male sex is very sexy as long as it is not portrayed in some cheap, nasty way, but in a loving romance-type way (same for male/female stuff, sex does not really turn me on, it is the romance).

Seeing two men making love can be beautiful (speaking solely from a film context, never witnessed it in life) but I do not understand all the intrigue in slash, yaio, and the like materials. I was never into fan fic, so I suppose that is why I always thought slash was stupid, and although I do like comics, I cannot get over the perverted feeling of disgust seeing two young people having sex. I did love the old version of Romeo and Juliet and enjoy many teen romance movies, so I am not put off by teen love or sex, but there is something darker and more perverse to yaoi that makes it hard for me to embrace or even look at.