From Porn to Eternal Flamewar: A Thread Split

[seebs]

Hmm.

I guess... I'm not sure what the downside of "amateur" comics is. I've seen a lot of Japanese yaoi, and I've seen what my wife does, and frankly, my wife's comic is a lot better.

She's arguably an "amateur" in that we haven't formally incorporated the studio as a company, and isn't earning enough to pay taxes on it. Yet.

But... In terms of the quality of the material the studio puts out, these people are in the same level of skill as a lot of "real" mangaka, and frankly, a hell of a lot better than, e.g., Clamp. Many of the characters in my wife's comic could exist as real people without extensive surgery, and would be able to walk without excruciating pain. :)

I'm not saying this work is always the best there is; there's a lot of very good work coming out of "real" mangaka... But at the same time, dismissing it so casually seems a little silly. What's wrong with talented amateurs? All the really good professionals were once talented amateurs.

[Adora]

I guess... I'm not sure what the downside of "amateur" comics is. I've seen a lot of Japanese yaoi, and I've seen what my wife does, and frankly, my wife's comic is a lot better.

You obviously haven't seen enough yaoi then.

Look, there's Amateur doujinshi circles, and then there's amateurs. There's SynDoru (http://synthetic-doll.deviantart.com/), and then there's your wife. There's stuff I'd bother reading and then there's stuff I wouldn't.

She's arguably an "amateur" in that we haven't formally incorporated the studio as a company, and isn't earning enough to pay taxes on it. Yet.

[quote]But... In terms of the quality of the material the studio puts out, these people are in the same level of skill as a lot of "real" mangaka, and frankly, a hell of a lot better than, e.g., Clamp.

...

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHSHDHWHWHHAHAhehehehhihihihihihi oh my *wipes tear away from eye and rights chair*. Oh, I think that's the best jokes I've heard all day. Yes, of course, an amateur online comic artist is better than a group of ladies who have been at their work professionally (not to mention the years they spent as amateurs) for 15 years.

Of course. Yes. Silly me. *snorts*

You wouldn't last a day at Comiket.

Many of the characters in my wife's comic could exist as real people without extensive surgery, and would be able to walk without excruciating pain. :)

Um, so? Since when does this mean it's a good story or decent art? That's one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard for the choice of one comic over another in a long time. Fuck, if kids chose the gekinga over the manga, the Japanese comic industry would be out of business. Not a fucking day.

What's wrong with talented amateurs?

Nothing, but I reserve my right to decide what's worth spending my time on, what I like, and what I don't like. OMG teh opinion of teh consumer!!1one Shock horror gasp! I can think of about 10 online comics off the top of my head in the same vein as your wife's which are done better and are more worth my time. Boohoo. She's not as good as you think she is. Fucking deal with it.

[viscousmemories]

Nothing, but I reserve my right to decide what's worth spending my time on, what I like, and what I don't like. OMG teh opinion of teh consumer!!1one Shock horror gasp! I can think of about 10 online comics off the top of my head in the same vein as your wife's which are done better and are more worth my time. Boohoo. She's not as good as you think she is. Fucking deal with it.
Or maybe you just have bad taste. Who knows? Obviously the fact that some women have been at it professionally for years says nothing about the quality of their work. Danielle Steele has been writing her spooge for years too, and slurps up gazillions of dollars from people who hang on every word. So?

It would be nice if art was so easy to categorize that you could just stamp everything with 'good' or 'bad' and be done with it, but I haven't seen any evidence that such an objective standard exists. What makes you think your opinion of seebs' wife's work is the definitive one?

[Adora]

So?

So yeah? I dunno, what's your point? I'm stating an opinion that I think saying his wife's work is better than CLAMP's is... greatly mistaken. Same as your opinion on Danielle Steel's work. I don't see an issue here.

What makes you think your opinion of seebs' wife's work is the definitive one?

When the fuck did I say it was definitive? Please, if I did, point it out to me and I'll edit the post. Really, I will. *sincere look... snort*

[viscousmemories]

So?
So yeah? I dunno, what's your point? I'm stating an opinion that I think saying his wife's work is better than CLAMP's is... greatly mistaken. Same as your opinion on Danielle Steel's work. I don't see an issue here.
Wait, you think my opinion of Danielle Steele's work is mistaken?

What makes you think your opinion of seebs' wife's work is the definitive one?
When the fuck did I say it was definitive? Please, if I did, point it out to me and I'll edit the post. Really, I will. *sincere look... snort*
You said his wife is not as good as he thinks she is. That sounds pretty definitive to me. But whatever, you're entitled to your opinion. I just think there's a pretty obvious difference between slamming Danielle Steele (who isn't likely to read what I post here) and viciously slamming seebs' wife. I have no opinion on her work myself but so what if he sees it through rose-colored glasses, does he deserve to be attacked for it?

[Adora]

Wait, you think my opinion of Danielle Steele's work is mistaken?

No, sorry, my bad on the comment structure. I mean, I gave my opinion on X, you gave your opinion on Y.

That sounds pretty definitive to me

I said she wasn't as good as he thinks she is. That's not definitive. It's the truth. He said she was better than CLAMP, and in my mind (fuckit, I wasn't going to post it here, but if we're going to play this game, let's play fucking hardball) I thought "Right. Where's the tonework, story pacing, visual suspense, half-decent fucking dialogue, and hell, character expressions maybe? Where's the creative stories, likable characters, linework and grasp of light/shadow? Where's the beautiful watercolours and ink artwork, pretty boys, aesthetic principles and cute-factor that make it so wonderful and supposedly better than CLAMP's work, which is famous for all these things, and more?"

...

I am not drnying amateurs have to start somewhere. They do. I am not denying her work is good. It is definitely above-average. But seebs stepped in it when he brought out the professional comparison. Yes, he deserves to be torn a new one for that stupid remark. That's why I said "not as good as he thinks she is".

[viscousmemories]

Wait, you think my opinion of Danielle Steele's work is mistaken?
No, sorry, my bad on the comment structure. I mean, I gave my opinion on X, you gave your opinion on Y.
Ah, okay. You scared me for a minute there.

I said she wasn't as good as he thinks she is. That's not definitive. It's the truth. <snip>
Hehe. Well of course saying it's "the truth" is definitive, but nevermind. The rest of your response is fair enough. I still think it was unnecessarily blunt, but I don't want to flog a horse that isn't even mine. I'm sure seebs can answer for himself.

[seebs]

Okay, if you like Clamp's art, we are obviously from different worlds. Clamp's art is ethereal, pretty, and bears no relationship to the structure of human bodies.

We have crates of real Japanese manga. I know the genre. I don't necessarily like it any better than casual scribbles; art isn't about producing exactly the same big round eyes every time.

I guess... There's a lot of questions of taste involved, here. I don't expect everyone to like my wife's art, but I think that "amateurness" is not the problem with it.

[seebs]

I said she wasn't as good as he thinks she is. That's not definitive. It's the truth. He said she was better than CLAMP, and in my mind (fuckit, I wasn't going to post it here, but if we're going to play this game, let's play fucking hardball) I thought "Right. Where's the tonework, story pacing, visual suspense, half-decent fucking dialogue, and hell, character expressions maybe? Where's the creative stories, likable characters, linework and grasp of light/shadow? Where's the beautiful watercolours and ink artwork, pretty boys, aesthetic principles and cute-factor that make it so wonderful and supposedly better than CLAMP's work, which is famous for all these things, and more?"


Okay, the reason I picked CLAMP is largely that I think they absolutely lack all of those. I've read CLAMP. It's shit. It's crap. The characters are at best tolerable, and most of them annoy me. Pretty boys? Small-boobed tall girls with dicks are not "boys". People whose knees are misjointed are not "pretty". Aesthetic principles? Personal taste; obviously, we disagree. I like the art the girls do a lot better, aesthetically, than CLAMP. Artwork? YMMV. I like Jesse's better; it lacks the soulless polish of CLAMP, but I like it. Tonework? Not sure what you mean; if you mean "shading", Jesse's marker art is better shaded than all of the CLAMP art I've seen, and screentones are a purely retro thing; you use 'em if you have a crappy printer. They're an affectation now. Story pacing? I like the story pacing. Visual suspense? Got that. Character expressions? All over. "Half-decent dialogue", you have GOT to be fucking kidding me. CLAMP's "dialogue" reads like bad goth poetry. Doom and pain stain the fucking teeth. Metanoia's characters talk like the people they are.

Metanoia is not "like CLAMP, only better". It's "better than CLAMP". It's got something to say, and I would call CLAMP's gradeschool angst a tragic failure in that department.

There are lots of manga artists better than Jesse. Tons of 'em. There are not many whose stories I like as much, although there are a few. But CLAMP? Give me a break. They're a practical joke.

[Adora]

... Clamp's art is ethereal, pretty, and bears no relationship to the structure of human bodies.
...

I don't necessarily like it any better than casual scribbles; art isn't about producing exactly the same big round eyes every time.

There's a lot of questions of taste involved, here. I don't expect everyone to like my wife's art, but I think that "amateurness" is not the problem with it.

Then what is?

You a) have no love of the art, b) have misguided ideas about what it's meant to depict and c) lack a sensitivity to the genre, yet somehow think your opinion on the subject is valid, just because she's your wife.

¬_¬... Seebs, I'm sure the mothers of the world who think their little angel is the most perfect singer on the planet and should be on Idol are with you 100% in this.

Edit:
Regarding CLAMP...

You are not the target audience for their works, obviously. So I never expect you to like their work as a whole. But if you're going to start dissing the stuff they're good at, I'm going to get out the big bat.

Pretty boys? Small-boobed tall girls with dicks are not "boys".

And yet, again, you show your ignorance of the entire yaoi/Boylove genre, as well as the shoujo genre which encompasses these. For fucks sake, if a fucking Creationist came in here and starting jumping up and down about evolution, they'd be chased off the forum. But you're just as ignorant as they are about what you're making claims about, and yet it's tolerated.

Fuck that.

Tonework? Not sure what you mean; if you mean "shading", Jesse's marker art is better shaded than all of the CLAMP art I've seen, and screentones are a purely retro thing; you use 'em if you have a crappy printer.

O.O

Holy fucking shitchrist on a stick... tones... crappy printer... retro... >.<

I can't... argh. You. Are. So. Fucking. Ignorant. Really, you are. Just STFU now. Please. For fucks sake... You have just displayed how much you fucking don't know about this shit. Please, think of the kittens or something, before you hurt yourself.

*bangs head against desk*

[seebs]

I guess, I don't feel that all yaoi is compelled to stick with the "pair of underage boys who talk like shoujo girls" style.

It is possible that I appreciate art, but don't have the same taste in it you do. I know that my complaints about CLAMP are not unique to me; I have heard similar complaints from lots of artists.

You can call me "ignorant" all you want... Tell ya what, I'll go get sources for my comments about screen tones, which I picked up from reading about them, after noticing that they had become a lot less common over time. Hand-halftoning is a lot less useful now than it used to be. We can print much smoother grayscales now.

But... I dunno. What are your credentials? I'm working with three artists who are actually making money on this; one of them is making a LIVING at it. We have stacks of reference books on the topic.

You have, so far as I can tell, a bunch of downloaded scanlations.

[Adora]

I've worked in 3 dounjinshi circles as a writer/artist part-time. Though I am no longer part of any of these thanks to study/other life commitments, I value my experience and time I spent with them.

I guess, I don't feel that all yaoi is compelled to stick with the "pair of underage boys who talk like shoujo girls" style.

Since when did CLAMP count as yaoi? Which one are you talking about here exactly?

Tell ya what, I'll go get sources for my comments about screen tones, which I picked up from reading about them, after noticing that they had become a lot less common over time. Hand-halftoning is a lot less useful now than it used to be. We can print much smoother grayscales now.

I'm sure you can, but toning is still a skill of the art that is valued by amateurs and professionals alike. Jesus fuck, if anyone I knew who worked in the circles made a comment like that, they'd be laughed out of town. It's like learning to walk before you can run with the big-boys, and it's especially about honing your art skills to be able to create better moods and scenes. I'm not saying you should rely on it, but it's an important part of the medium.

[seebs]

The point is, screentones are a thing you use if you have a specific reason to. Lack of tonework does not make art bad, any more than lack of oil paint makes a watercolor bad.

Jesse is not trying to draw stereotyped shounen-ai. She's drawing a story in which some actual male characters, who are anotomically correct, fuck. I think this is a hell of a lot more interesting than carefully imitating every last detail of the style of mass-produced crap.

I stand by the claim that her work is better art than CLAMPs. I have very little respect for CLAMP; it's mass-produced crap, with no artistic integrity, messages that coulda been written by angsty high-school kids, and, well, that's about it. Very pretty, as long as you supress any and all thoughts of human anatomy... But what do I care?

[Goliath]

Am I the only one who finds it curious that vm jumped all over Adora for allegedly "making definitive statements about art" (even though she didn't), but when seebs does make definitive statements about art, vm is curiously silent?

Hmmmmmm...... :think:

[seebs]

You were too obvious, vm, I want my bribe money back. :P

[viscousmemories]

Am I the only one who finds it curious that vm jumped all over Adora for allegedly "making definitive statements about art" (even though she didn't), but when seebs does make definitive statements about art, vm is curiously silent?

Hmmmmmm...... :think:
I "jumped all over Adora" because I thought she went way overboard raking seebs over the coals for being a big fan of his own wife's work and I have a tendency to speak my mind when I think people are being mistreated. Feel free to read whatever you want into it, but at least have the courage to be as direct as I was. If you want to call me a filthy theist-lover then do it. No need to hide behind innuendo.

[seebs]

For what it's worth, I think a lot of this is that Adora seems to be expecting Metanoia to be shonen-ai or yaoi, and adhere to the traditions and style of manga, up to and including, for instance, the use of screeentones instead of markers for shading. I'm looking at it as art on its own merits, and I have talked about it with other artists, some of whom are real live full-time professionals.

If you're looking for the stylized cues that manga tend to give you, you won't find 'em in metanoia. Things tend to be fairly close to anatomically correct; yelling characters don't have much larger mouths, and the mouth doesn't turn into a tiny little line when it's closed. The eyes are about the right size. So... The characters' faces aren't "expressive" the way they are in, oh, say, Takahashi's work. But... They're expressive the way actual peoples' faces are, and I think there's a lot of expression in them. (It helps, of course, that I see them before they get shrunk to a pathetic 72dpi...)

I have no idea what to make of the criticism of the dialogue. I know real people who talk like these characters.

Is the work rough? Yeah. This is a single person doing a comic in her spare time, with no assistants, and doing a couple of pages a week, like clockwork. Target Down is a 16-page comic done entirely, from script to finished work, in 6 days, and 90% of that (everything except some of the shading) by a single artist with no assistants.

But... It's doing okay. It's actually making some money now, although not as much as, say, Fireball's infinitely more accessible manga-style fanarts. It's got a medium-sized regular readership, and the readers appear to be able to find the plot, however subtle it may be. Responses to the prologue have generally been positive, up to and including a marriage proposal. (IANMTU.)

Is the art perfect? No. Is it as detailed as a manga studio would put out? No. But... The characters look like actual people. They have distinct body types; you can recognize them when they change clothes, for instance. They are, in most cases, anatomically correct. I like that a lot, personally; one of the things I don't always like about manga is the tendency to stylize characters until they're no longer physically possible.

I don't think I'm as ignorant of the shoujo genre as you might think; I just don't see it as the defining ideal by which to judge a comic which really isn't shoujo at all. Yaoi does not need to be done in a really shoujo style; in fact, non-shoujo yaoi attracts a lot of interest from people who are finding the anatomical improbabilities frustrating.

But...

I dunno. I think it's actual art, and I think that matters. I distinguish between the fluffy fanart the girls do, and the serious art that's supposed to say something. Sometimes the serious art isn't perfectly polished; sometimes it's a little rough in spots. I don't care about that much.

[beyelzu]

Am I the only one who finds it curious that vm jumped all over Adora for allegedly "making definitive statements about art" (even though she didn't), but when seebs does make definitive statements about art, vm is curiously silent?

Hmmmmmm...... :think:
I "jumped all over Adora" because I thought she went way overboard raking seebs over the coals for being a big fan of his own wife's work and I have a tendency to speak my mind when I think people are being mistreated. Feel free to read whatever you want into it, but at least have the courage to be as direct as I was. If you want to call me a filthy theist-lover then do it. No need to hide behind innuendo.

filthy fucking theist lover


you bastard, sticking up for someone, what the fuck were you thinking.

end dumbass rant. :D

[beyelzu]

first off I read alot of comics, got 15 gigs on my comp and I have read quite a few manga, I really liked crying freeman.

If seebs wife's comics arent up to the standards of the genre then the genre is shite.

period.

it looks good and is well written.

I read another comic that seebs posted about over at ii quite awhile ago.

and I liked it alot in spite of the gay boy love action, I am just not excited by gay boy love.

the comics are well written and well drawn from what I have read.

so adora

either you are

full of shit
or

the genre is.


this public service announcement brought to you by the eac trying to lull christianity into a false sense of security one liberal theist at a time.

[Adora]

For what it's worth, I think a lot of this is that Adora seems to be expecting Metanoia to be shonen-ai or yaoi, and adhere to the traditions and style of manga, up to and including, for instance, the use of screeentones instead of markers for shading.

First of all, if I had any ideas about that, it could only possibly be from you calling it "a shounen ai comic" when you describe it (in the slash thread way back when, which I corrected you on).

Second of all, no I'm not.

I'm expecting that when someone claims something is better than CLAMP, it better live up to that standard. The fact you even brought CLAMP in as a comparison situated it in the shoujo genre. If you had compared it to something else, say, a gekinga, which is what your wife's comic seems to be closer to than a manga, we wouldn't be in this mess.

But wait, since when does Earth Logic apply here?

(It helps, of course, that I see them before they get shrunk to a pathetic 72dpi...)

Ó.o the fuck? You claim you're printing this shit, and you're doing it at only 72 dpi? o.Ò

No wonder you can't handle teh screentones...

The characters look like actual people.

You keep on going back to this point like it's the be-all and end-all of your argument. So fucking what? If I wanted that, I'd read gekingas. Since I only read mangas, obviously, I don't.

I dunno. I think it's actual art, and I think that matters. I distinguish between the fluffy fanart the girls do, and the serious art that's supposed to say something. Sometimes the serious art isn't perfectly polished; sometimes it's a little rough in spots. I don't care about that much.

So what, 'serious' fangirl art has to make the anatomy somehow more correct in your books for it to be considered 'serious'? Because I can already hear my d-circle friends cracking up at this statement...

so adora either you are full of shit or the genre is.

I'm so glad the genre is now being judged definitively by those farthest from its intended and target audience who think they're William Shatner. Wonderful. Just perfect. VM, how much sucky sucky?

[beyelzu]

so adora either you are full of shit or the genre is.

I'm so glad the genre is now being judged definitively by those farthest from its intended and target audience who think they're William Shatner. Wonderful. Just perfect. VM, how much sucky sucky?
damnedest thing just happened. I made a post with a couple hundred words and you responded to only 12 of them.

so I can only assume that you completely agree with the rest of my post.

cool, I am glad that we came to this understanding.

although, I am afraid that I dont understand the last sentence, are you asking me how much pleasure I give vm or how much oral pleasure he gives me?

[Adora]

damnedest thing just happened. I made a post with a couple hundred words and you responded to only 12 of them.
so I can only assume that you completely agree with the rest of my post. cool, I am glad that we came to this understanding.

Actually, I was just shifting through the shit to get to the parts I thought you were actually trying to make a point with. It was tough, I have to say, so it's not surprising I may have got the section wrong. Perhaps you could prevent this problem happening again by using proper English and comment structure.

But regarding the comments you made, I really didn't feel like repeating everything I already said to seebs, since I make the assumption that 99% of people on this board actually read threads properly, and can follow logical thought.

There's always one who misses out though, I guess.

Of course, if I was going to be a wanker, I could point out that at least I actually addressed the post properly, and not used pathetic semantic bullshit to avoid it altogether. But I'm not that much of a bitch, now am I?

although, I am afraid that I dont understand the last sentence, are you asking me how much pleasure I give vm or how much oral pleasure he gives me?

I'm sorry to break your little heart, but that last part had nothing to do with you at all. I was making a reference to the comment above that seebs made in reply to Goliath. *sighs*

[Goliath]

Feel free to read whatever you want into it, but at least have the courage to be as direct as I was. If you want to call me a filthy theist-lover then do it. No need to hide behind innuendo.

First of all, I read nothing into what you wrote.

Secondly, I merely wondered why you didn't seem to treat seebs the same way. You, again, are the one who is reading into what the other is saying, not I.

[livius drusus]

Another flamewar on the meaning of art. What a bunch of nerds we are.

[viscousmemories]

Feel free to read whatever you want into it, but at least have the courage to be as direct as I was. If you want to call me a filthy theist-lover then do it. No need to hide behind innuendo.
First of all, I read nothing into what you wrote.
I don't believe you. See below.

Secondly, I merely wondered why you didn't seem to treat seebs the same way. You, again, are the one who is reading into what the other is saying, not I.
Your observation that I "didn't seem to treat seebs the same way" is an indication that you have read something into what I wrote. Quote seebs where he goes off on Adora telling her what a talentless hack she or someone close to her is and I'll tell him what I think of his doing so. Oh, wait. You can't because he has never done anything remotely like that. Maybe that would be why I "didn't seem to treat seebs the same way".

So what was the point of your post then, Goliath? You came rushing to Adora's defense because I "jumped all over her", but you had absolutely nothing to say about her "jumping all over" seebs first. So obviously your issue isn't with people "jumping all over" people. It seems to be with me jumping all over people, and in particular when I make comments in defense of seebs.

It's obvious that your only point in this thread is to accuse me of showing seebs favoritism, and it's even more obvious that it pisses you off because you dislike seebs. The only part I'm unsure of is whether you dislike seebs because he's such a mean and spiteful person (which he obviously isn't) or because he's a theist (which he obviously is).

Hmmmmmmm.....

[seebs]

First of all, if I had any ideas about that, it could only possibly be from you calling it "a shounen ai comic" when you describe it (in the slash thread way back when, which I corrected you on).

Oh, I see.

And when the Butthole Surfers used a drum machine, that made them no longer a punk band?

Sorry, but no. You are not the arbiter of genre. Boys kissing boys can be shounen ai even if they are no longer in the style that the term originated with.

I'm expecting that when someone claims something is better than CLAMP, it better live up to that standard. The fact you even brought CLAMP in as a comparison situated it in the shoujo genre. If you had compared it to something else, say, a gekinga, which is what your wife's comic seems to be closer to than a manga, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Ahh. See, this is where I disagree. I don't think comparisons are always within-genre. Billie Holliday is better than Brittney Spears, and your argument that she can't stay on key and has crappy drum beats doesn't dissuade me from my opinion.

I used the mass-produced genre crap as contrast. It's like the fluff fiction thing; we all know that fluff fiction is fun and cute, but real literature beats its pants off any day.

the fuck? You claim you're printing this shit, and you're doing it at only 72 dpi?

Er, no.

I'm claiming that you can't possibly have seen it at anything other than 72 DPI, 'cuz that's what's on the web site. :)

You keep on going back to this point like it's the be-all and end-all of your argument. So fucking what? If I wanted that, I'd read gekingas. Since I only read mangas, obviously, I don't.

Language evolves. We are not the Japanese. We do not have to preserve every last detail of the style with which a play was originally produced. We can do adaptations. We can innovate. There is a lot of manga which isn't in the "manga style" anymore.

If you wanna be a genre nazi, fine... But you're the only person who has ever complained about calling Metanoia "a manga".

So what, 'serious' fangirl art has to make the anatomy somehow more correct in your books for it to be considered 'serious'? Because I can already hear my d-circle friends cracking up at this statement...

I can accept "stylized", but not "just plain broken", personally. My own taste, I'm sure.

I'm so glad the genre is now being judged definitively by those farthest from its intended and target audience who think they're William Shatner. Wonderful. Just perfect. VM, how much sucky sucky?

Okay, we win!

If I'm wrong to judge CLAMP, then you are categorically wrong to judge Metanoia, 'cuz you are nowhere near it's target audience.

So, we all win. CLAMP is beautiful material for its audience, Metanoia is beautiful material for its audience.

[seebs]

Another flamewar on the meaning of art. What a bunch of nerds we are.

Hey, if it gets more readers for Metanoia, I'm happy. And there is a certain delight to reading Adora's post (http://www.journalfen.net/community/i_wank/49866.html) about it elsewhere, and the comments from the swarming CLAMP fangirls.

I figure, for every ten CLAMP fangirls that goes to the site, one will think "hey, wow, boysex is even hotter when they boys involved are actual boys!"

:)

[seebs]

Jesse, who actually sort of likes CLAMP, suggests that a better comparison than "Billie Holliday to Brittney Spears" is "Bauhaus to Avril Lavigne."

(To be fair, if I've got a nasty cold, I can page through CLAMP stuff for hours, admiring the long flowy scenery and patterns of feathers intended to suggest wings.)

[seebs]

Your observation that I "didn't seem to treat seebs the same way" is an indication that you have read something into what I wrote. Quote seebs where he goes off on Adora telling her what a talentless hack she or someone close to her is and I'll tell him what I think of his doing so. Oh, wait. You can't because he has never done anything remotely like that. Maybe that would be why I "didn't seem to treat seebs the same way".

Now you're tempting me to try it and see what happens.

[viscousmemories]

And there is a certain delight to reading Adora's post (http://www.journalfen.net/community/i_wank/49866.html) about it elsewhere, and the comments from the swarming CLAMP fangirls.
Eh, those comments weren't so bad. Your wife got some props anyway. And I particularly enjoyed the one who was all, "Yeah he's a wanker but I agree with everything he said about CLAMP". :D

Now you're tempting me to try it and see what happens.
Okay I'll just respond pre-emptively then: Who died and made you the judge of all things yaoi, seebs? Hmmm?

[livius drusus]

You actually think you're a bit of a black sheep here, Adora? I thought your custom title was just kidding.

Anyway, I'll just shut up now because I really don't know a damn thing about any of these genres. (Although I've probably watched more anime than all y'all put together on account of the flood of it on Italian TV when I was a girl, but except for that time Lady Oscar did it with her stable boy Andre just before the French Revolution broke out nobody got it on in those shows.)

[viscousmemories]

And incidentally, Adora, it's not that I'm all about the philosophy. I thought your first rant against seebs was over the top and I felt compelled to challenge you on it, but I also didn't want to be an asshole about it. I could have just said, "What makes you think your shit doesn't stink?" (which is closer to what I was actually thinking) but I thought that would be unnecessarily rude and insulting and I try to avoid acting that way. In any case I would have just left it at my dead horse flogging comment if Goliath hadn't rushed in to fan the flames. I'm really not that interested in arguing about an artform I have little more than an academic appreciation of.

[Goliath]

Your observation that I "didn't seem to treat seebs the same way" is an indication that you have read something into what I wrote.


Wrong yet again. If I had read something into what you had written, I would've said that you didn't treat seebs the same way, not that you didn't seem to treat seebs the same way. There's a huge difference.



Quote seebs where he goes off on Adora telling her what a talentless hack she or someone close to her is



Wait, I thought your quarrel with Adora was that she was "making definitive statements"? Seebs has done that plenty of times. Here is one such instance:


There are lots of manga artists better than Jesse. Tons of 'em. There are not many whose stories I like as much, although there are a few. But CLAMP? Give me a break. They're a practical joke.


I thought that statements like that are the focus of our tangent of the discussion here, not attacks.



You came rushing to Adora's defense



Not really. I was just wondering why you didn't attack seebs for doing the same thing that you attacked Adora for.



your only point in this thread is to accuse me of showing seebs favoritism,



You are welcome to prove this at your convenience.



you dislike seebs.



Correct.



The only part I'm unsure of is whether you dislike seebs because he's such a mean and spiteful person (which he obviously isn't) or because he's a theist (which he obviously is).



Neither.

[seebs]

By the way, the wank over at journalfen is hilarious.

Also, I'd like to point out for the record that, in the middle of being a total genre nazi about what is or isn't "real" shounen-ai, Adora used the word "gekinga". Only that's not a word. She probably meant "gekiga".

The irony meter. POOF!

Also, for extra credit, search through the wank for the link to the comments on Sublunary, a comic which is absolutely perfectly in the style Adora is talking up. :)

[viscousmemories]

Wait, I thought your quarrel with Adora was that she was "making definitive statements"? Seebs has done that plenty of times. Here is one such instance:
Maybe if you were more interested in actually communicating with me than trying to prove me wrong you'd have noticed that seebs made that comment to Adora after I had already bowed out of the discussion. Of course you're not, though, as this and every other post you make to me clearly shows. You can dance around the fact that your first post on this thread was a blatant speculation on my motives all you want, but I suspect the truth is as obvious to everyone else as it is to me. I honestly don't care if you ever admit it, I believe even the most casual reader here can see for themselves.

[Goliath]

seebs made that comment to Adora after I had already bowed out of the discussion.

Wrong again.


You said his wife is not as good as he thinks she is. That sounds pretty definitive to me.


Edited to say: Oops, for some reason, I grabbed the wrong line to cut and paste...that's what I get for trying to post on this forum whilst doing 2 or 3 other things.



You can dance around the fact that your first post on this thread was a blatant speculation on my motives all you want,



And you can ignore the fact that if I had speculated on your motives, I would've used different words (but since I didn't, I hadn't).

I believe even the most casual reader here can see for themselves.

Well, you've never bothered to prove any of your claims in our exchanges that I can recall...why would this one be any different?

[Sweetie]

I have a few free-thoughts.

Firstly, most people dislike theism or Christianity because of it's stance on homosexuality and it's sexual strictures. The dude is selling homosexual somewhat porn so I can't imagine that Goliath is against him because of his theism in this case.

Secondly, I've been looking around at some Yaoi, followed some of Adora's links. I found one case where there was a real video and the "fangirl" had to add, "yes these are real boys" (not females because they could be mistaken for young girls). Another, the comics depicted the "boys" on the bottom with a hole and lots of nipple sucking which basically is that the "boy" is just being treated like a female with a dick.

Personally, real life bare-assed men bent over aren't pretty at all, there is no "prettiness" or sexiness that can be found in them, and in their being fucked. Are Asian men any different? I don't know, I've never seen a naked Asian man before. But I do know that many men find hairless clits attractive, and way too many men find them so attractive that they are mostly attractive on not fully developed girls.

Further, the yaoi comics didn't really show anything but allusions or all the activity blurred over. I understand that there are laws, however, what I find is that any part of it that would represent real life, the reality of a man's ass and others, isn't there which is probably why the comics are preferrable and why young boys are preferrable.

So, because these are just technically young boys being represented as men in many cases, I liken it all to pedophilia.

My free-thought is that this stuff is unrealistic, dream-like, similar to pedophilia for fucked-up women, inexperience virgins, and women who aren't satisifed with what they got or don't know how to use what they've got well as in, make the most of it.

Further, it is my experience and understanding that once you start screwing around with this eroticism, the problem is that we become desensitized and always have to raise the bar higher and higher and higher. It is crap like this that leads people to be unreasonable, be addicted, I think it has the tendency to lead to dehumanizing, and it also leads some to break laws and do terrible, disgusting and degrading things.

[Goliath]

The dude is selling homosexual somewhat porn so I can't imagine that Golieth is against him because of his theism in this case.


Who is the "he" that you're referring to? Seebs? In that case, no. I have nothing against him because of his theism (and no, I see no reason to reveal the reason that I do dislike him).

And if you're referring to someone else that makes Yaoi, then.....no as well. I couldn't really care less about Yaoi. I jumped into this thread because of what I perceived to be a major inconsistency on vm's part by trying to take Adora to task for making definitive statements about art, but not doing the same to seebs.

[viscousmemories]

seebs made that comment to Adora after I had already bowed out of the discussion.

Wrong again.
You could have left in your accusation that I'm a liar. Contrary to your insinuation in your edit remark you wouldn't be banned for insulting me, and it's more honest when you don't disguise your hate in equivocal speech. I'll just reprint your original post on this thread for anyone who might have forgotten it, and again let them be the judge of whether you jumped in this thread to speculate on my motives or if you were just offering an innocent ponderance:

Am I the only one who finds it curious that vm jumped all over Adora for allegedly "making definitive statements about art" (even though she didn't), but when seebs does make definitive statements about art, vm is curiously silent?

Hmmmmmm...... :think:

[Goliath]

You could have left in your accusation that I'm a liar. Contrary to your insinuation in your edit remark you wouldn't be banned for insulting me,


Well, I also took it out because it didn't really accomplish anything...this is enough of a flame-fest as is.

It is a relief to know that our exchanges haven't been bringing me closer to being banned, though.



and it's more honest when you don't disguise your hate in equivocal speech.



But I don't hate you. I merely dislike you.



I'll just reprint your original post on this thread for anyone who might have forgotten it,



And I will continue to point out that you have yet to prove your claims about my motives for my first post in this thread.

[livius drusus]

Quick interjection: I think this is quite a high quality flamewar, and I very much appreciation how y'all have kept your wits about you even through the gritted teeth.

Sweetie, your post kicked ass from beginning to end. :bow:

[viscousmemories]

And I will continue to point out that you have yet to prove your claims about my motives for my first post in this thread.
I don't have to prove my claim, you've just admitted it yourself:

I jumped into this thread because of what I perceived to be a major inconsistency on vm's part by trying to take Adora to task for making definitive statements about art, but not doing the same to seebs.

In other words your only interest in this discussion was to speculate that I was showing favoritism to seebs, obviously. Which is exactly what I've been saying all along. And since you've now admitted that you dislike seebs and myself, it's pretty obvious that was your motivation here.

On the other hand, I confronted Adora 'cause I thought she was being unduly harsh to seebs, and I bowed out after I was satisfied that she understood my point. The last thing I intended to say on this thread was:

The rest of your response is fair enough. I still think it was unnecessarily blunt, but I don't want to flog a horse that isn't even mine. I'm sure seebs can answer for himself.

But of course I was drawn back in 7 posts later, when you decided to post your speculation about my motives for having posted in the first place and to accuse me of deliberately avoiding comment on things seebs had said in the interim.

[Goliath]

Quick interjection: I think this is quite a high quality flamewar, and I very much appreciation how y'all have kept your wits about you even through the gritted teeth.


Thank you. The high quality is one of the reasons why I decided to remove the "liar" accusation against vm. In fact, I apologize for having called vm a liar (although I stand by everything else that I've written in this thread).

[Goliath]

In other words your only interest in this discussion was to speculate that I was showing favoritism to seebs, obviously.


Wrong again. My interest in this discussion was your inconsistency. If you had attacked seebs for making definitive statements about art but not attacked Adora for it, I still would've wondered why.

If you had attacked JoeP for making definitive statements about art but not attacked Farren for it, I still would've wondered why.

For any two distinct members X and Y of this board, if you had attacked X for making definitive statements about art but not attacked Y for it, I still would've wondered why.

Are you getting it, yet?



But of course I was drawn back in 7 posts later, when you decided to post your speculation about my motives for having posted in the first place



Wrong again. I have not speculated on your motives, I merely wondered as to why you were being inconsistent.

[viscousmemories]

Wrong again. My interest in this discussion was your inconsistency. If you had attacked seebs for making definitive statements about art but not attacked Adora for it, I still would've wondered why.
And since I have already pointed out that the seebs' comment you quoted was made after what was supposed to be my last post in the thread, your accusation that I was inconsistent is debunked.

Are you getting it, yet?
These condescending snipes are as trite and boring as your insults.

Wrong again. I have not speculated on your motives, I merely wondered as to why you were being inconsistent.
Fine. So now that I've explained that what you perceived as inconsitency was actually the result of my having decided to bow out of the argument between Adora and seebs, I expect you will retract your accusation.

[Goliath]

Edit: You do have a point in that you ran away from the discussion before having the chance to level an attack against seebs for making definitive statements about art.

However, you came back into the thread to do battle with me, so why didn't you attack seebs for doing the same thing that you attacked Adora for after coming back?

[viscousmemories]

your accusation that I was inconsistent is debunked.


Hardly. A lack of an attack is a lack of an attack. The fact remains that you:

a). Attacked Adora for making definitive statements about art.

b). Did not attack seebs when he did the same.

As far as I can tell, you have yet to give me a clear, coherent reason as to why that is.

I did not "attack" Adora. That is your distorted interpretation of my comments toward her. As I already explained to her my comments were meant to be a less offensive way of asking her what makes her think her shit doesn't stink. I found her long, brutally critical post to seebs over the top. I don't comment every time I think someone here is being an asshole, but if I think someone goes overboard I feel compelled to say something. Not because I'm an admin or anything, but because I'm an invested member of the community. I did not "attack" seebs for two reasons which I have already explained.

1. He didn't say anything over the top rude and/or insulting.
2. I had already announced my intention to leave the discussion.

These condescending snipes are as trite and boring as your insults.
Well, I can only say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over so many times before losing a bit of patience. I don't have an infinite amount of patience, after all.
So you snipe at me because you can't control yourself?

I expect you will retract your accusation.
Sure, as soon as you can explain why attacking someone for doing something but then not attacking another person for doing the exact same thing isn't an inconsistency.
Well since I've never beat my wife, I can't explain why I did.

[viscousmemories]

I wish you wouldn't completely change the content of your post while I'm responding, it's just confusing. Maybe you can mark your post with "final draft" or something once you've decided what you want to say.

Edit: You do have a point in that you ran away from the discussion before having the chance to level an attack against seebs for making definitive statements about art.
I didn't "run away", actually. I bowed out because I had said all I wanted to say and as I said, I didn't want to flog a dead horse that wasn't even mine. You can keep trying to read some nefarious motive into it all you want, but you're wrong.

However, you came back into the thread to do battle with me, so why didn't you attack seebs for doing the same thing that you attacked Adora for after coming back?
That's ridiculous. Obviously I didn't confront seebs because, as you just said, I only came back into the thread to respond to you. I couldn't care less about seebs' and Adora's art argument because my only interest in it is academic. Again, as I have already said before.

[Goliath]

I wish you wouldn't completely change the content of your post while I'm responding, it's just confusing.


I try not to do it often, but I realized that you had a point about bowing out of the discussion. Would you rather I didn't acknowledge that at all?



You can keep trying to read some nefarious motive into it all you want, but you're wrong.



And until you can read my mind and prove what I did or did not intend, you are wrong. Each and every single time.



That's ridiculous.



What's so ridiculous about that? After coming back, it would've made perfect sense to say "Oh by the way, seebs, you shouldn't have made any definitive statements about art, either."



Obviously I didn't confront seebs because, as you just said, I only came back into the thread to respond to you.



Three words: Target of Opportunity.

[Shake]

Is it just me, or is this thread getting WAY off-topic?

[Goliath]

So you snipe at me because you can't control yourself?

I'm not really angry, so I haven't sniped at you, per se. I've been a bit curt with you at times, but anything I've said to you has easily been eclipsed by the abuse that you've heaped upon me.

[viscousmemories]

I try not to do it often, but I realized that you had a point about bowing out of the discussion. Would you rather I didn't acknowledge that at all?
No, I appreciate the acknowledgement I just feel stupid responding at length to a non-existent post. I never know if etiquette demands that I scrap my long reply or go ahead with it.

You can keep trying to read some nefarious motive into it all you want, but you're wrong.
And until you can read my mind and prove what I did or did not intend, you are wrong. Each and every single time.
Okay, you're right that I have no way of knowing why you were implying that I was showing favoritism to seebs. But I still think it's obvious that you were implying that, which I hope we now agree I wasn't.

What's so ridiculous about that? After coming back, it would've made perfect sense to say "Oh by the way, seebs, you shouldn't have made any definitive statements about art, either."
I disagree that it would have made sense. In fact if I had commented on the substance of the argument at that point I'm sure you or someone else would have accused me of being hypocritical for saying I was done but then coming back. Notice I wasn't being hypocritical because I didn't say I was leaving the thread, I said I wasn't going to flog that particular horse anymore, which I haven't.

Obviously I didn't confront seebs because, as you just said, I only came back into the thread to respond to you.
Three words: Target of Opportunity.
No, 4 words: Responding to Direct Accusation.

I'm not really angry, so I haven't sniped at you, per se. I've been a bit curt with you at times, but anything I've said to you has easily been eclipsed by the abuse that you've heaped upon me.
If you can find two people here who agree that I have heaped abuse on you, I will apologize for doing so. If you can't, maybe you should consider the possibility that your perception of our interactions is skewed. Anyone who is a member of HH has seen me heap abuse on someone, and I promise it hasn't happened to you.

[Goliath]

No, I appreciate the acknowledgement I just feel stupid responding at length to a non-existent post. I never know if etiquette demands that I scrap my long reply or go ahead with it.


:shrug: I'd scrap the reply to the long post, personally, but there are arguments for either course of action.

Okay, you're right that I have no way of knowing why you were implying that I was showing favoritism to seebs.


No, you still don't understand: You still have to show that I implied that at all. Guess what? You can't read my mind. So you're wrong. Period.



I disagree that it would have made sense. In fact if I had commented on the substance of the argument at that point I'm sure you or someone else would have accused me of being hypocritical for saying I was done but then coming back.



I certainly would not have. You are again speculating on what I would or would not do in a given situation. Unless you can prove that you're a prognosticator, you are again wrong.



If you can find two people here who agree that I have heaped abuse on you, I will apologize for doing so.



If truth were a popularity contest, I'd consider giving two shits about whether or not you think that everyone disagrees with me about your continued abuse.

[seebs]

To bring it back on topic, I have posted a long defense of Metanoia in the wank thread. (BTW, if you don't get the Anne Rice reference, google on "Anne Rice wank".)

(I realize, on reading other wanks, that I've totally missed the point, and I've been, pretty much, No Fun At All. Well, I'm gonna rectify that. I'm no Anne Rice, but I'll do what I can.)

*ahem*

First off, how dare you? How many of you have done a hundred pages of material about a gay hit man who fights demons and chews ice? Not many, I'll wager. Only betting's a sin, so I won't. But Metanoia is the absolute best comic ever, bar none, only it's so good it's not a comic at all, but a manga. Wait, that's not good enough. It's even better than manga. It's a fucking ANIME. That's how good it is.

A lot of comics reduce the world to black and white, with good guys and bad guys. Metanoia is done in TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY SIX SHADES OF GRAY! That's more than you can do with Prismacolors, which is why Metanoia is colored with actual COPIC markers, the kind real mangaka jack off with.

Metanoia is much deeper literature than anything you have ever written, or read, if you can even read at all, which I doubt very much, or if you can recognize a run-on-sentence, which I don't think you could, even if you saw one, or I wrote one, which I wouldn't, because I'm a good writer.

There is no "mary sue" crap in Metanoia. When Star gains the ability to turn into a telepathic unicorn in Chapter 4, it happens for real plot reasons, in a manner consistent with the Quentin Tarantino sensibilities of the rest of the manga. This is not a "self-insertion" thing based on the author's own shapeshifting powers; any idiot can see that the author, who shapeshifts into a white-maned, empathic unicorn with violet eyes, should not be mistaken for Star's silver-maned, telepathic unicorn with golden eyes. This is not any kind of self-insertion; it is literature.

Some people don't think Metanoia's characters have real depth. Bullshit. Star chews ice when he's nervous. That's depth. I mean, you learn a lot about star from that. Like, you know he's not one of those people whose teeth are always really sensitive to cold stuff. How many artists have the BALLS to confront that kind of raw, heart-wrenching truth about their characters?

The artist of metanoia is more woman than you'll ever be, and more man than you'll ever have. She is the epitome of cool, the Pope of Pimp, and taller than most children.

Metanoia's plot is perfect in every respect, and covers every aspect of the human experience in perfect detail, all while maintaining a light and approachable atmosphere with recognizable, likeable characters and a consistently child-friendly sensibility. By the end of the main story arc, the reader will have learned what it means to experience love for the first time, will know what pork chops really taste like, and will have grown two full inches.

Some people complain that Metanoia is a genre-breaker. Well, if the genre was that fragile, it deserved to be broken. We need visionaries. We need change. When we first realized that doughnut holes were not merely edible, but the tastiest part of the doughnut, a lot of people weren't ready for the change. They wanted to keep throwing doughnut holes away. Now we know they're food, and millions of people get fed every day because someone had the courage to eat a fucking doughnut hole. Metanoia is like that, only with a jelly filling.

Metanoia's characters express everything that is good in humanity; friendship, teamwork, casual murder. Their sex lives are more interesting than prime time television, even during Sweeps Week. Hell, they're more interesting than Adult Swim on Cartoon Network!

The regular series of cameo appearances by famous characters, such as Batman and Robin, the Harlem Globetrotters, or the Addams Family, distinguishes Metanoia from all other cartoons and comics. It is a unique feature which shows a special depth of insight into the human condition which most of ya'll fucktards will never experience, so booya.

In conclusion,... No, wait, I've barely gotten started. More to come.

Everyone who doesn't like Metanoia wets the bed. I can prove it, because we installed special sensors. People who like Metanoia get laid more often than other people, and for good reason -- they're better in bed. Most men who don't like Metanoia ejaculate prematurely. Most women who don't like Metanoia like it when men ejaculate prematurely.

Metanoia's aggressive promotion of Christian ideals makes it the ideal comic for teaching your children about morality. Children need to learn that the career of a hit man is a much more morally acceptable one than a lifestyle of gay sex. Furthermore, they need to learn that you can combine these lifestyles and make twice as much money. Metanoia doesn't indulge in the heavy-handed moralizing of some manga, such as Rurouni Kenshin or Trigun; instead, it focuses on making sure that each episode ends with a clearly stated moral, which is demonstrated when the loveable but incompetent Team Rocket get their just deserts.

Sometimes people think Metanoia is not as good as other art. This is because they are holding their artometer upside down. There is simply no other art in the history of Western Civilization which is as good as Metanoia. Some Eastern Civilization, such as South Jersey, can come close to the quality of Metanoia, but most of it can't, and anyway, who can hold those fucking chopsticks. Metanoia sets the standard by which all other art should be judged.

Some authors need careful handholding by an editor. Some have progressed to a friendly relationship with the editor. An elite few need no editing, because their work is perfect to begin with. The building in which Metanoia is drawn is surrounded by a moat filled with the corpses of editors. It's that good.

(Please let me know if I missed anything.)

[Goliath]

Wow...seebs, if I were selecting a winner for the "cranky bigot with respect to comics" award, you'd win it hands down.

Would anyone care to reconsider what seems to be the party line of "Adora was mean to seebs and not the other way around"?

[seebs]

Okay, that's the second time someone has apparently interpreted that not as I meant it.

I intended that as a parody of the crappy defenses one generally sees for comics, with special attention to Mary Sue defenses. None of it was supposed to mean anything in particular.

[Goliath]

Okay, that's the second time someone has apparently interpreted that not as I meant it.

I intended that as a parody of the crappy defenses one generally sees for comics, with special attention to Mary Sue defenses. None of it was supposed to mean anything in particular.

Oh...okay. I apologize, then.

However, I have no idea why you or anyone else would think that your diatribe was funny. It was about as funny to me as a visit to www . tencommandments . org (spaces added because I don't want to link off of that site from here).

[livius drusus]

I thought it was funny. As for why I think so, it's probably for the reason I think Landover Baptist is funny while 10C.org isn't: it doesn't take itself or its targets seriously.

[livius drusus]

Oh, and Shake, sorry for not answering you sooner, but I've asked Abe if he'd like me to split the thread so the flamewar can rage on until the oxygen runs out and the people who want to talk good free porn can do the same.

[viscousmemories]

Okay, you're right that I have no way of knowing why you were implying that I was showing favoritism to seebs.

No, you still don't understand: You still have to show that I implied that at all. Guess what? You can't read my mind. So you're wrong. Period.
No, you're wrong Goliath. Anyone who can read and comprehend the English language can easily determine that you were implying that I was showing favoritism. If you were to say: "Is anyone else here curious about why vm appears to be a hypocrite? Hmmm?" you would very obviously be implying that I am a hypocrite, not asking a sincere question, and every English speaking person that reads it will understand that. It's obvious. That's how the language works. Pretending that your innuendo was in no way meant to imply what you were obviously implying is an absurd equivocation and blatantly untrue. Perhaps you honestly don't see that, but I don't know how you possibly couldn't.

I disagree that it would have made sense. In fact if I had commented on the substance of the argument at that point I'm sure you or someone else would have accused me of being hypocritical for saying I was done but then coming back.
I certainly would not have. You are again speculating on what I would or would not do in a given situation. Unless you can prove that you're a prognosticator, you are again wrong.
Nope. If I had made that assumption I wouldn't have added "or someone else", which I did.

If you can find two people here who agree that I have heaped abuse on you, I will apologize for doing so.
If truth were a popularity contest, I'd consider giving two shits about whether or not you think that everyone disagrees with me about your continued abuse.
It wasn't an appeal to popularity, I was honestly saying that maybe you should consider that your perception of our interactions might be skewed, since I doubt you could find two people who agree that I "heap abuse on you". I'm willing to be proven wrong, though. So again if you can find two people who agree with your allegation I'll apologize. Until then I'd appreciate it if you'd quit repeating the claim every time we interact in a thread. It's beginning to look like you're deliberately trying to smear my character by making unsupported accusations of abuse.

[seebs]

That diatribe made a number of references to genre conventions. For instance, if you don't know what a "Mary Sue" is, the entire line about the unicorn is probably wasted. There's a reference to the last couple of seasons of Scooby Doo, to Pokemon, to various artsnob quirks of the Manga world, and tons of other stuff, much of it willfully surreal.

Basically, it's parody. It's a parody of how authors defend their works, rotating through various techniques, from surrealism, to hyperbole.

One of the folks on the wank site gave it a B+; I forgot to call people paedophiles, mock their parentage, or give them funny nicknames, and I didn't comment on how obsessed they were with the art. He's right. I'll do better next time, I'm sure.

[Goliath]

No, you're wrong Goliath.

Prove it. Put up or shut up. I grow tired of your baseless accusations.



Anyone who can read and comprehend the English language can easily determine that you were implying that I was showing favoritism.



Then it should be easy for you to prove it.

Let's see the proof.



If you were to say: "Is anyone else here curious about why vm appears to be a hypocrite? Hmmm?" you would very obviously be implying that I am a hypocrite,



Wrong again. I would say that you appear to be a hypocrite.

Get one thing straight: If I didn't say "X", then guess what? I didn't say "X"!



Nope. If I had made that assumption I wouldn't have added "or someone else", which I did.



You are correct. I apologize and concede that point.



It wasn't an appeal to popularity, I was honestly saying that maybe you should consider that your perception of our interactions might be skewed, since I doubt you could find two people who agree that I "heap abuse on you".



And what does popular opinion have to do with the truth?



I'm willing to be proven wrong, though. So again if you can find two people who agree with your allegation I'll apologize.



Finding 2, 5, 500000, or 10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^8,675,309 people who agree with the fact that you have heaped abuse on me has not a single fucking thing whatsoever to do with your abuse that you continue to spew forth.

Similarly, finding 2, 5, 500000, or 10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^8,675,309 people who disagree with the fact that you have heaped abuse on me has not a single fucking thing whatsoever to do with your abuse that you continue to spew forth.


It's beginning to look like you're deliberately trying to smear my character

:roflmao: I believe you owe me a new irony meter.

[viscousmemories]

The proof that you were implying that I was showing favoritism to seebs is in your original post, which I already re-posted earlier. It is obvious that's what you were implying, to me and I suspect to everyone else. It is equally obvious that you will go to any lengths to deny it, but I'm not going to waste another minute of my life on trying to get you to reconsider, except by analogy:

Does anyone else here find it curious that Goliath appears to evade criticism of his comments by pretending that he meant them literally when it's painfully obvious that he was implying something else? I mean, just based on his comments in this thread doesn't that seem like a reasonable conclusion?

Hmmmmmm..... :think:

[seebs]

Does anyone else here find it curious that Goliath appears to evade criticism of his comments by pretending that he meant them literally when it's painfully obvious that he was implying something else? I mean, just based on his comments in this thread doesn't that seem like a reasonable conclusion?

I see an attempt to imitate what, as you note, Goliath appears to be doing... But in fact, I'm pretty sure that he means things a lot more literally than people are reading them. He's a mathematician, and a serious one; if you keep that in mind when reading his posts, everything goes better.

[viscousmemories]

Does anyone else here find it curious that Goliath appears to evade criticism of his comments by pretending that he meant them literally when it's painfully obvious that he was implying something else? I mean, just based on his comments in this thread doesn't that seem like a reasonable conclusion?

I see an attempt to imitate what, as you note, Goliath appears to be doing... But in fact, I'm pretty sure that he means things a lot more literally than people are reading them. He's a mathematician, and a serious one; if you keep that in mind when reading his posts, everything goes better.
Oh I wasn't implying anything, I was just asking an honest question.

[Adora]

You actually think you're a bit of a black sheep here, Adora? I thought your custom title was just kidding.

You thought wrong.

*sighs*

I was never really part of the "Infidel Posse" that migrated over here, and I never seem to, er, 'get into' conversations as much as the rest of you, so yes, the title is partly a joke and partly serious.

I'll answer the rest of this mess when I get back from real-life today...

[Goliath]

I was never really part of the "Infidel Posse" that migrated over here,

Likewise. I've never felt more hated over the internet then when I was at the IIDB.

[Goliath]

The proof that you were implying that I was showing favoritism to seebs is in your original post, which I already re-posted earlier.


And I have already shown you the flaw in said "proof".



It is obvious that's what you were implying,



Then please either prove it or stop claiming that it's "obvious." It's very easy to abuse the word "obvious" by calling something obvious that isn't so.



It is equally obvious that you will go to any lengths to deny it,



And there we go again with yet more attempts at character assassination.

Why are you doing this? What is your problem with me? Why do you feel the need to continue this libel?



Does anyone else here find it curious that Goliath appears to evade criticism of his comments by pretending that he meant them literally when it's painfully obvious that he was implying something else?



Good, you're starting to learn: you haven't accused me of evading criticism in your quote above. To continue the conversation from this question, I ask why it appears to you that I'm evading criticism.

See how easy that was? I read what was there, and I didn't read what wasn't there.

[Goliath]

But in fact, I'm pretty sure that he means things a lot more literally than people are reading them. He's a mathematician, and a serious one; if you keep that in mind when reading his posts, everything goes better.

:yup:

You know, seebs, maybe you're not such a bad person, after all.

[Goliath]

That diatribe made a number of references to genre conventions. For instance, if you don't know what a "Mary Sue" is, the entire line about the unicorn is probably wasted. There's a reference to the last couple of seasons of Scooby Doo, to Pokemon, to various artsnob quirks of the Manga world, and tons of other stuff, much of it willfully surreal.


Well, I'm completely ignorant of the manga subculture or a "Mary Sue", so I can see why I didn't get it.

[seebs]

I was never really part of the "Infidel Posse" that migrated over here, and I never seem to, er, 'get into' conversations as much as the rest of you, so yes, the title is partly a joke and partly serious.

I'll answer the rest of this mess when I get back from real-life today...

I promise you, I am not part of an "infidel posse". I think I'm here because I contributed to the collapses of at least one or two similar sites. :)

[seebs]

Well, I'm completely ignorant of the manga subculture or a "Mary Sue", so I can see why I didn't get it.

Makes sense. The "Mary Sue" thing, by the way, is ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS, and leads to some of the most brilliant, funny, writing anywhere on the internet.

Worth reading up on.

[livius drusus]

You thought wrong.

My turn to sigh. I guess I just didn't think you would see yourself that way since it's so not the way I see you. There I go again confusing my perspective with the perspective. I'm sorry.

I was never really part of the "Infidel Posse" that migrated over here, and I never seem to, er, 'get into' conversations as much as the rest of you, so yes, the title is partly a joke and partly serious.

Well, Goliath and seebs pointed out they aren't Infidel Posse members, and of course, vm has had, um, let's just say a bit of a love/hate relationship with IIDB. Still, I take your point: there are a bunch people here who know each other of old and it shows in their interaction.

For the very little it's worth, I consider you to be very much a part of the community, and I'm not just saying that because we were lucky enough to score your talents for the avatar gallery either.

[viscousmemories]

Okay I guess I am a liar, 'cause I'm gonna go ahead and waste another few minutes of my life responding one last time.

The proof that you were implying that I was showing favoritism to seebs is in your original post, which I already re-posted earlier.
And I have already shown you the flaw in said "proof". <snip>

Then please either prove it or stop claiming that it's "obvious." It's very easy to abuse the word "obvious" by calling something obvious that isn't so.
You are right, of course. It is impossible for me to prove that you were implying anything with your post. That is the very nature of innuendo. It is by definition deliberately disguised as an innocent observation. "An indirect or subtle, usually derogatory implication in expression; an insinuation", according to Dictionary.com. Of course as I said earlier most people familiar with the English language are able to identify it fairly easily, which is why I can confidently say it is obvious despite being unable to provide any proof of it. It may not be obvious to you, but I believe it is obvious to most people.

It is equally obvious that you will go to any lengths to deny it,
And there we go again with yet more attempts at character assassination.
You are right, that was an unfair dig. Not remotely an attempt to assassinate your character, but unfair nonetheless. I apologize.

Why are you doing this? What is your problem with me? Why do you feel the need to continue this libel?
You came into a thread on a subject you have admitted to having no knowledge of or interest in only to point out what you saw as "inconsistency" (a euphemism, IMO, for hypocrisy) in my posts in that I appeared to be letting seebs slide for something I challenged Adora on, and have since admitted a dislike for both seebs and me, and you are accusing me of attacking you? I honestly have no idea how you could possibly think that. I would not have posted a word to you today if you hadn't insinuated that I was being hypocritical.

Good, you're starting to learn:
More insulting condescension.

you haven't accused me of evading criticism in your quote above. To continue the conversation from this question, I ask why it appears to you that I'm evading criticism.

See how easy that was? I read what was there, and I didn't read what wasn't there.
No, you're right, I didn't directly accuse you. But I was very obviously indirectly implying it, as anyone who can read and understand English can easily surmise. Again that's how innuendo works. Are you going to honestly claim that you never use innuendo in your daily speech and are incapable of recognizing it when others use it? Am I really supposed to take every word you say completely literally, and do you take everything you read literally? Because if so that's probably where our disconnect is.

[viscousmemories]

For the very little it's worth, I consider you to be very much a part of the community, and I'm not just saying that because we were lucky enough to score your talents for the avatar gallery either.
I completely agree with livius on that, Adora. In fact I've taken your being a part of the community here so much for granted that it never even occurred to me that you might really feel like a black sheep. I was gonna mention the fact that I'm not Mr. Popularity at IIDB myself, much less part of any Infidel posse, but I understand why you'd have that impression about the people here in general. I'm sorry you feel that way and hope you don't continue to. I mean, unless you like it or somethin'. ;)

[Goliath]

You are right, of course. It is impossible for me to prove that you were implying anything with your post.


Thank you for the admission.

And I did not imply that you were giving seebs favored treatment, either. Because if I were, it would be possible to prove that my statements imply directly that you were indeed giving seebs favored treatment. But since you have yet to prove that said implication holds, you lose. Again.

Insinuations are irrelevant. If I say "it appears as though vm is being inconsistent", then I am no more saying "vm is a hypocrite" than I am saying "Gilbert Gottfried and I went to the Hu Hot Mongolian Grill yesterday after I went shopping at the Big & Tall Casual Male store for a new pair of leather gloves for winter."

it is obvious despite being unable to provide any proof of it.


Then it is not obvious.



You are right, that was an unfair dig. Not remotely an attempt to assassinate your character, but unfair nonetheless. I apologize.



Apology accepted.



You came into a thread on a subject you have admitted to having no knowledge of or interest in only to point out what you saw as "inconsistency" (a euphemism, IMO, for hypocrisy) in my posts in that I appeared to be letting seebs slide for something I challenged Adora on, and have since admitted a dislike for both seebs and me, and you are accusing me of attacking you?



The accusations are unnecessary, as you have done almost nothing else but attack me since we started responding to each other on this board.



More insulting condescension.



That was not an insult, merely an expression of joy that you seemed to be learning how to fucking read what is written, and not read what isn't written in a post.



No, you're right, I didn't directly accuse you. But I was very obviously indirectly implying it,



No you weren't.



as anyone who can read and understand English can easily surmise.



Are you calling me illiterate? I wonder how many illiterate people there are on the planet who hold a PhD?



Again that's how innuendo works.



And again, it's totally irrelevant. I say what I say. I don't say what I don't say. Most of the rest of the world that I've seen works the same way (the only exceptions that I can think of being moments of sarcasm).

Apparently in your world, "It appears to me that X is true" and "X is true" are logically equivalent. There must then be no such things as optical illusions in your world.

However, in my world, when someone says "it appears to me that X is true", then it appears to them that X is true. No more, no less.

[beyelzu]

goliath,


you are all denotation and no connotation.

The words and phrases a person uses can be emotionally charged and you seem to completely overlook that. My sarcastic post to vm was intended to make fun of your post. I took it much as vm did.


Be glad that you are dealing with him, because he cares and tries hard to not piss people off, if I were him I would not be nearly as apologetic about reading language the way it is normally read and not as a mathematical proof.


Language aint math, kemosabe.

[viscousmemories]

Insinuations are irrelevant. If I say "it appears as though vm is being inconsistent", then I am no more saying "vm is a hypocrite" than I am saying "Gilbert Gottfried and I went to the Hu Hot Mongolian Grill yesterday after I went shopping at the Big & Tall Casual Male store for a new pair of leather gloves for winter."
Okay let's go backward for a minute. Earlier today you said:
I jumped into this thread because of what I perceived to be a major inconsistency on vm's part by trying to take Adora to task for making definitive statements about art, but not doing the same to seebs.
If you had to choose a single word to describe this "major inconsistency" you perceived in my treatment of Adora in comparison to seebs, what word would you choose? Favoritism? Hypocrisy? Both seem like obvious choices to me, which is why I've used them. What would be a more accurate word in your view?

[Goliath]

you are all denotation and no connotation.



I've found that connotation is mostly irrelevant. What a person says is what a person says.

Then again, connotation can play more of a role (or rather, force itself to play more of a role) in face-to-face conversations.



My sarcastic post to vm was intended to make fun of your post. I took it much as vm did.



:? Which post was that? I must've missed it.



he cares and tries hard to not piss people off,



:eyebrow2: Are we talking about the same person, here? To me, vm has been nothing but hostile--bordering on downright hateful--and it seems to me that he delights in his attempts at character assassination.



if I were him I would not be nearly as apologetic about reading language the way it is normally read and not as a mathematical proof.



How absurd...if language were a proof, then what theorem would it be a proof of? :?


Language aint math


I never said it was.

[Goliath]

If you had to choose a single word ...


Why do I have to choose a single word?

[beyelzu]

you are all denotation and no connotation.



I've found that connotation is mostly irrelevant. What a person says is what a person says.

Then again, connotation can play more of a role (or rather, force itself to play more of a role) in face-to-face conversations. connotation is carried by the word itself regardless of format. In spite of your personal opinions, connotation is not irrelevant to most people



My sarcastic post to vm was intended to make fun of your post. I took it much as vm did.



:? Which post was that? I must've missed it. page 2 th 35 post in this thread.



he cares and tries hard to not piss people off,



:eyebrow2: Are we talking about the same person, here? To me, vm has been nothing but hostile--bordering on downright hateful--and it seems to me that he delights in his attempts at character assassination. his posts remain pretty civil in tone and I dont see him even making attempts at character assassination.

see this is the big stumbling block, I think, when you say that he is engaging in character assassination I think that you are attacking him, because character assassination is a shitty thing to do. It often seems to me that you are being overly sensitive.



if I were him I would not be nearly as apologetic about reading language the way it is normally read and not as a mathematical proof.



How absurd...if language were a proof, then what theorem would it be a proof of? :? the point was about connotation/denotation. language isnt as cut and dried as math and you shouldnt try to make it so. Since language is intersubjective, what other people think about it is just as important as what you think about it.


Language aint math


I never said it was.

no but you consistently act like it behaves the same way or should be read like one reads a math proof.

[viscousmemories]

If you had to choose a single word ...

Why do I have to choose a single word?
For the sake of economy. Words like 'favoritism' exist so we can express "A display of partiality toward a favored person or group" with fewer words for the sake of efficiency. I'm pretty sure you know this, though, so I'm not sure why you're asking me unless you're just playing semantic games, which I readily admit I suspect you are. Hence my earlier accusation of equivocation.

So it would appear that the "major inconsistency" you perceived in my treatment of Adora vs. seebs was "a display of partiality toward a favored person" (i.e. 'favoritism') toward seebs, and so I described it as such for the sake of argument. Now explain to me why you think it fails.

[Goliath]

connotation is carried by the word itself regardless of format.


Okay, then what is the connotation of the phrase "half factorial domain"? Or how about "of"? "is"? "were"?


page 2 th 35 post in this thread.

But I haven't called vm a "theist lover". Those were his words.

On a mostly unrelated note, why does it seem that the total amount of time that I spend posting on a board is directly proportional to the frequency of words being stuffed into my mouth?



his posts remain pretty civil in tone



Saying "you said Y! you said Y! you said Y!" over and over and over again after being shown N times (for some large positive integer N) that I've actually said "X" is not really the mark of civility.



and I dont see him even making attempts at character assassination.



I see it almost every time he accuses me of saying something that I haven't.



language isnt as cut and dried as math



:qsigh: If by "cut and dry" you mean "going along a pre-defined path or routine", then that's not what mathematics is.

I don't blame you for holding that misconception, though. Mathematics is probably the most misunderstood of human endeavors.



no but you consistently act like it behaves the same way....


Even if you were right (which you aren't), I didn't say that language was mathematics. And if I didn't say it, then...guess what? I didn't say it.

[Goliath]

For the sake of economy.


That doesn't answer the question. Let me restate it, adding emphasis:

Why do I have to choose one word?

I question the efficiency of replacing a two word phrase with a one word blanket term. Different words mean different things. If I use a particular word, it's probably used for a reason.


I'm not sure why you're asking me


I'm asking you because I'm amused by what seems to be your insistince that I have to find only one word for "major inconsistency".

Now explain to me why you think it fails.

You first: Explain why I have to change my words.

[Adora]

Also, I'd like to point out for the record that, in the middle of being a total genre nazi about what is or isn't "real" shounen-ai, Adora used the word "gekinga". Only that's not a word. She probably meant "gekiga".

Scuse me if I haven't used the term for 2 years and so happened to forget it a little. Oh noes. What're you gonna do, sue me? Your wife has already made it public in her LJ, and for some reason seems to think being nice is a requirement to revealing yourself in her comment threads.

Sorry, but no. You are not the arbiter of genre. Boys kissing boys can be shounen ai even if they are no longer in the style that the term originated with.

So... what. You gonna call QAF "shounen ai" now?

Billie Holliday is better than Brittney Spears, and your argument that she can't stay on key and has crappy drum beats doesn't dissuade me from my opinion.

Actually, my argument about BH is that she has about as much tone as a snare drum in a school hall. But y'know, you're psychic and everything, so I don't need to say that, do I?

'cuz that's what's on the web site

And my question is now; "Who the fuck works with 72 on websites anymore?" I thought the agreed standard now that most people have at least 56K is that 300 is A-ok?

We do not have to preserve every last detail of the style with which a play was originally produced.

No, you don't. But if you're going to start borrowing terms, you should at least have the important bits. Someone pointed out already over at IW that your wife's comic is far closer to an American comic than a manga, in both style and substance.

Now you're tempting me to try it and see what happens.

Go ahead. You'll be surprised, I can assure you, or your money back.

Secondly, I've been looking around at some Yaoi, followed some of Adora's links.

Good to see that with such limited observation and knowledge, you're now calling said consumers of the genre paedophiles. Thank teh Buddha's you're not jumping to conclusions.

Sweetie, your post kicked ass from beginning to end.

Backed up by someone else who's admitted to know close to 0 about the subject.

Now I actually remember why I always never ever brought this up in the past.

[livius drusus]

Sweetie, your post kicked ass from beginning to end.

Backed up by someone else who's admitted to know close to 0 about the subject.

I complimented Sweetie because she made an excellent post. I neither agreed with the substance of it nor disagreed, precisely because I have no grounds to engage the topic. I just appreciated the fact that it was substance without personal vitriol, something which has been sorely lacking here since page 1.

Now I actually remember why I always never ever brought this up in the past.

Now I remember why I shouldn't have posted on this thread since it devolved into everyone is an asshole except for me bullshit.

[beyelzu]

connotation is carried by the word itself regardless of format.


Okay, then what is the connotation of the phrase "half factorial domain"? Or how about "of"? "is"? "were"?

here is a quick riddle for you all greek are men.

are all men greek?

hopefully you get my point and wont engage in useless nitpicking.


page 2 th 35 post in this thread.

But I haven't called vm a "theist lover". Those were his words.

On a mostly unrelated note, why does it seem that the total amount of time that I spend posting on a board is directly proportional to the frequency of words being stuffed into my mouth? I dont know, it could be a reading comprehension issue, the fact that you dont take context into consideration or that you fail to appreciate the connotations of words used by others and yourself. pick one.



his posts remain pretty civil in tone



Saying "you said Y! you said Y! you said Y!" over and over and over again after being shown N times (for some large positive integer N) that I've actually said "X" is not really the mark of civility. neither is it an example of not being civil.



and I dont see him even making attempts at character assassination.



I see it almost every time he accuses me of saying something that I haven't.
you read motives into vm that just arent there, imho.


language isnt as cut and dried as math



:qsigh: If by "cut and dry" you mean "going along a pre-defined path or routine", then that's not what mathematics is.

I don't blame you for holding that misconception, though. Mathematics is probably the most misunderstood of human endeavors. not what I said or meant. let me try to be more clear. cut and dried as in a mathematic symbols mean the same things and math is generally not as convoluted as language. cos is cos and doesnt have 20 different possible meanings like english words.



no but you consistently act like it behaves the same way....


Even if you were right (which you aren't), I didn't say that language was mathematics. And if I didn't say it, then...guess what? I didn't say it.
I didnt say that you did. Nice strawman you got going on. You most certainy did not say that language is math, but then I never said that you did.

[viscousmemories]

For the sake of economy.


That doesn't answer the question. Let me restate it, adding emphasis:

Why do I have to choose one word?

I question the efficiency of replacing a two word phrase with a one word blanket term. Different words mean different things. If I use a particular word, it's probably used for a reason.


I'm not sure why you're asking me


I'm asking you because I'm amused by what seems to be your insistince that I have to find only one word for "major inconsistency".

Now explain to me why you think it fails.

You first: Explain why I have to change my words.

More equivocation. :yawn:

[wade-w]

Adora, you are being a "genre nazi" here. I find your comments on this thread similar to Samuel Johnson's dismissal of Shakespeare as barbaric because he didn't adhere to certain strict guidleines as to what is and isn't permitted in a play. You need to accept that the lines between one genre and another are not always cut and dried, and strict adherence to formula is not the defining characteristic of art. Plus, I hope you won't take it amiss if I don't trust the artistic opinion of someone who prefers to read fanfic.

[seebs]

Scuse me if I haven't used the term for 2 years and so happened to forget it a little. Oh noes. What're you gonna do, sue me?

No, but I will take it into consideration when evaluating your qualifications to assert genre boundaries.

'cuz that's what's on the web site

And my question is now; "Who the fuck works with 72 on websites anymore?" I thought the agreed standard now that most people have at least 56K is that 300 is A-ok?

This may get its own special mockery. A 300dpi scan of Metanoia would be about 2000 pixels wide; that's larger than the full width of a 23" Apple Cinema display, although it would fit, horizontally, on a 30"... Unfortunately, the vertical height of 3000 pixels wouldn't fit on much of anything you can buy in the consumer market.

Most screens are still between maybe 72 and 115dpi. If you're producing something for people to read online, that's about what you use. More importantly, the average user has maybe a 1280x1024 desktop, or 1024x768, so anything too much bigger than that is just going to be annoying. If Metanoia were at 144dpi, from the original page size (the middle bits of an A4), it would be right on the very edge of being obnoxiously wide for 1024x768 users; it's already a little tall for them.

I would love to see some citations about your interesting claim that the "standard" is 300dpi. I mean, scanning in little half-page-sized manga at 300dpi might work, but really... I have a hard time believing it.

For that matter, on a 56k link, a 300dpi full-page scan of Metanoia, done at reasonable quality, would come out to around a 3-minute download.

That seems a LITTLE high to me. I am not sure what you're thinking here, but... It seems a little odd. I could see arguing for 150dpi images. I could even see someone carelessly forgetting to talk about the size of the source image when talking about the resolution of images put up on web pages. But 300dpi... That's starting to be a little silly. Images larger in both directions than the monitors that 99% of people use are probably not a good choice.

No, you don't. But if you're going to start borrowing terms, you should at least have the important bits. Someone pointed out already over at IW that your wife's comic is far closer to an American comic than a manga, in both style and substance.

Oh, it probably is. But that doesn't mean that the little minicomic isn't a good example of yaoi; it's just not manga-style yaoi.

Go ahead. You'll be surprised, I can assure you, or your money back.

Nah. My religion frowns upon seriously mixing it up with people. :)

(More importantly, I got my flaming in in the early 90s, and I'm sorta bored with it now.)

[Goliath]

here is a quick riddle for you all greek are men.

If by "greek", you mean "person of Greek descent", then yes.



are all men greek?



No, as I am half Irish and half Norwegian.



hopefully you get my point



Actually, no, that "riddle" (remind me to discuss your conception of "riddle" sometime) seemed rather pointless.


I dont know, it could be a reading comprehension issue, the fact that you dont take context into consideration or that you fail to appreciate the connotations of words used by others and yourself. pick one.


I'd love to, but only after you prove that those are the only two possibilities.

neither is it an example of not being civil.


It is if it's done again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again in what seems to be an attempt at character assassination.



cut and dried as in a mathematic symbols mean the same things and math is generally not as convoluted as language. cos is cos and doesnt have 20 different possible meanings like english words.



In that case....you're still dead wrong. Different people sometimes mean slightly different things by the same term. If you want, I can bring up an example, but the only examples that I can think of would require a bit of background explanation.



I didnt say that you did.



Agreed. This does make me wonder why you bothered to say that "language isn't math" in the first place.

[Goliath]

More equivocation. :yawn:

More avoiding of my questions, more refusal to prove your claims, and more indication of yet another victory.

[livius drusus]

...yet another victory.


Yeah right. I love the smell of napalm in the morning too. Night folks. Enjoy treating each other like shit even more than you already have.

PS - A for effort, GW. Best of luck to you.

[Goliath]

Enjoy treating each other like shit even more than you already have.


Do you honestly think that I enjoy trying to correct these constant mischaracterizations?

[viscousmemories]

More equivocation. :yawn:
More avoiding of my questions, more refusal to prove your claims, and more indication of yet another victory.
If your goal was to convince me that you are unwilling and/or incapable of reasonable and honest communication, then yes you have won. Congratulations. I promise I won't make the mistake of taking you seriously again.

[livius drusus]

Do you honestly think that I enjoy trying to correct these constant mischaracterizations?

Ironically enough, your question is a mischaracterization of my post. If I had said "I think y'all enjoy treating each other like shit" your question would have a point. I used the imperative, however, and I meant exactly what I said. To phrase it another way, y'all better enjoy it, because I sure as shit don't.

See ya.

[Goliath]

If your goal was to convince me that you are unwilling and/or incapable of reasonable and honest communication,


Nope. My goal was to get you for once in your life to actually read what I've written, and not what I haven't written.

That's it.

That's literally everything that I've tried to do in all of our exchanges on this board.

I promise I won't make the mistake of taking you seriously again.

I haven't taken you seriously for some time now. In fact, I'd have put you on ignore long, long ago if this software allowed for the ignoring of admins.

[Goliath]

Ironically enough, your question is a mischaracterization of my post. If I had said "I think y'all enjoy treating each other like shit" your question would have a point.


Nope, no irony. I haven't mischaracterized you, but you have mischaracterized me. I was asking if you thought that I enjoyed correcting these mischaracterizations. If I thought that you did think that I enjoyed correcting them, I would've said so.



To phrase it another way, y'all better enjoy it, because I sure as shit don't.



Well, I don't, either.

[xorbie]

I thought this sort of shit was in the past...

[seebs]

I thought this sort of shit was in the past...

Hah! Not in a million years. This is what we all secretly come to forums for.

[Adora]

This may get its own special mockery. A 300dpi scan of Metanoia would be about 2000 pixels wide; that's larger than the full width of a 23" Apple Cinema display, although it would fit, horizontally, on a 30"... Unfortunately, the vertical height of 3000 pixels wouldn't fit on much of anything you can buy in the consumer market.

*sighs* Its times like this I realise I have been utterly spoiled by dA and the technology/talent therein.

Oh, it probably is. But that doesn't mean that the little minicomic isn't a good example of yaoi; it's just not manga-style yaoi.

Therefore, not yaoi at all. Gay-comic, queerlit, whatever. But if it aint manga, it aint yaoi. This is not being a genre-nazi, this is fucking logic. Fuck, call it a slash-graphic-novel if you want to be that wanky, but it isn't manga.

PS: Fuck you wade. Out of all the fucking dumbarse comments about art and judgement in the thread, you take the cake, hands down.

[beyelzu]

here is a quick riddle for you all greek are men.

If by "greek", you mean "person of Greek descent", then yes.



are all men greek?



No, as I am half Irish and half Norwegian.



hopefully you get my point



Actually, no, that "riddle" (remind me to discuss your conception of "riddle" sometime) seemed rather pointless.


I dont know, it could be a reading comprehension issue, the fact that you dont take context into consideration or that you fail to appreciate the connotations of words used by others and yourself. pick one.


I'd love to, but only after you prove that those are the only two possibilities.

neither is it an example of not being civil.


It is if it's done again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again in what seems to be an attempt at character assassination.



cut and dried as in a mathematic symbols mean the same things and math is generally not as convoluted as language. cos is cos and doesnt have 20 different possible meanings like english words.



In that case....you're still dead wrong. Different people sometimes mean slightly different things by the same term. If you want, I can bring up an example, but the only examples that I can think of would require a bit of background explanation.



I didnt say that you did.



Agreed. This does make me wonder why you bothered to say that "language isn't math" in the first place.

on the one,
you are very precise, the rest of us arent. well except maybe liv.

I think that there is a communication barrier here, both between you and I and you and vm.

Maybe you should try to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we all should try to give each other the benefit of the doubt
/me shrugs

I honestly dont have the patience for dealing with you right now goliath. I will post something more substantial later today.

and btw liv, this thread is indeed a quagmire, but like Mac in Korea, I think that if I ok the use of force up to and including nuking key cities in mainland china, victory could be mine. On the other hand escalating
a flamewar into a :nuke: might be a little drastic and, of course, it would defeat the whole being civil thing I got going on right now.

[Goliath]

I thought this sort of shit was in the past...

There isn't much that I wouldn't give to keep it there. But others would have nothing of that.

[Goliath]

I think that there is a communication barrier here, both between you and I and you and vm.


Yes. Neither of you seem either willing or able to:

a). Read what I write.

and

b). Not read what I don't write.



Maybe you should try to give him the benefit of the doubt.



Why does he deserve it? Throughout our exchanges, he has done almost nothing but mischaracterize nearly everything I say.

[Farren]

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I sooo want to add my 2c, but I'm not sure if the blowback is worth it. Hmmm...

[viscousmemories]

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I sooo want to add my 2c, but I'm not sure if the blowback is worth it. Hmmm...
I'd love to hear it.

I admit I have no sound justification for jumping to the conclusion that Goliath's initial comments on this thread were meant to imply that I'm a "filthy theist-lover". I based that speculation on our past interactions and what I perceive to be his attitude toward theists, but it was still a leap. Of course anyone who knows me knows I'm paranoid and jump to conclusions at times. C'est la vie. May he who is without a flaw in his character throw the first stone.

However, another thing people who know me know is that I strive to be honest and straightforward, and that I can and do go to great lengths to try to explain myself and/or understand where people I'm arguing with are coming from, just as I did all day yesterday here with Goliath. The only reason I did this is because I thought Goliath was honestly