Leicester v. Lester or, What's With Those Brits Anyway?

[LadyShea]

Off topic

Leicester

WHY is this name pronounced Lester? 4 silent letters, including a consonant, seems excessive.

[Godless Dave]

Off topic

Leicester
WHY is this name pronounced Lester? 4 silent letters, including a consonant, seems excessive.
The same reason the British pronounce "lieutenant" as if there were in "f" in there. And then there's "worcestershire".

[JoeP]

Off topic

Leicester
WHY is this name pronounced Lester? 4 silent letters, including a consonant, seems excessive.
The same reason the British pronounce "lieutenant" as if there were in "f" in there. And then there's "worcestershire".
No, it's a different reason. :wink: The 'f' sound in lieutenant is there for a lost historical reason. But the process by which Leicester, Worcester, thought, fight, tons of other -gh- words, pneumatic, and so on lose phonemes that were originally pronounced is simple: we speak lazily and tend to compress anything that isn't essential to be understood; and we change spelling lazily, ie rarely or not at all. Even Edinburgh is called Embra by a lot of its residents. N'Orlins is seen as an informal pronunciation (correct me if I'm wrong!) but it wouldn't take much for it to become the accepted standard pronunciation.

[LadyShea]

The same reason the British pronounce "lieutenant" as if there were in "f" in there

I must not ever have heard a Brit say lieutenant. Where do they put an F?

[Ymir's blood]

N'Orlins is seen as an informal pronunciation (correct me if I'm wrong!) but it wouldn't take much for it to become the accepted standard pronunciation.
Actually I think it would be n'AWlins

[Ymir's blood]

The same reason the British pronounce "lieutenant" as if there were in "f" in there

I must not ever have heard a Brit say lieutenant. Where do they put an F?
From having watched WAY too much BBC and war movies...

It is pronounced 'lef-tenant'

[LadyShea]

No, it's a different reason. :wink: The 'f' sound in lieutenant is there for a lost historical reason. But the process by which Leicester, Worcester, thought, fight, tons of other -gh- words, pneumatic, and so on lose phonemes that were originally pronounced is simple: we speak lazily and tend to compress anything that isn't essential to be understood; and we change spelling lazily, ie rarely or not at all. Even Edinburgh is called Embra by a lot of its residents. N'Orlins is seen as an informal pronunciation (correct me if I'm wrong!) but it wouldn't take much for it to become the accepted standard pronunciation.

Okay, but Nawlins, N'orlens or any other lazy pronunciation is only used informally. If a newscaster is discussing it they say New Orleans.

The pronunciation Lester for Leicester is used at all times though, both formally and informally. This is what made it stick out in my mind.

[Dingfod]

New Orleans would be pronounced New Or-lens, not New Or-lee-uns, right? I know people from the vicinity (but not in the city) that I talk to on the phone regularly that pronounce it Nawlins.

Lieutenant = Leff-tenent, heard it in a thousand old movies.

[LadyShea]

New Orleans would be pronounced New Or-lens, not New Or-lee-uns, right? I know people from the vicinity (but not in the city) that I talk to on the phone regularly that pronounce it Nawlins.

Lieutenant = Leff-tenent, heard it in a thousand old movies.

Well, even formally there are different pronuciations: New Orleens, New Orleeuns, New Orlens....but never Nawlins.

Louisville is similar in having several different pronuciations. Damn French ;)

[JoeP]

No, it's a different reason. :wink: The 'f' sound in lieutenant is there for a lost historical reason. But the process by which Leicester, Worcester, thought, fight, tons of other -gh- words, pneumatic, and so on lose phonemes that were originally pronounced is simple: we speak lazily and tend to compress anything that isn't essential to be understood; and we change spelling lazily, ie rarely or not at all. Even Edinburgh is called Embra by a lot of its residents. N'Orlins is seen as an informal pronunciation (correct me if I'm wrong!) but it wouldn't take much for it to become the accepted standard pronunciation.

Okay, but Nawlins, N'orlens or any other lazy pronunciation is only used informally. If a newscaster is discussing it they say New Orleans.

The pronunciation Lester for Leicester is used at all times though, both formally and informally. This is what made it stick out in my mind.
You're right. At the present, there's a formal way to pronounce it and an informal way (or various ones), like Embra. Some informal contractions, like LA, Frisco or Joburg are probably too contracted ever to get to official status, but Nawlins or Embra could easily - over a century or so - become the accepted correct pronunciation (and "New Or-leens" become a joke identifying hick English tourists :P ). This is what happened to Leicester and Worcester.

[LadyShea]

You're right. At the present, there's a formal way to pronounce it and an informal way (or various ones), like Embra. Some informal contractions, like LA, Frisco or Joburg are probably too contracted ever to get to official status, but Nawlins or Embra could easily - over a century or so - become the accepted correct pronunciation (and "New Or-leens" become a joke identifying hick English tourists :P ). This is what happened to Leicester and Worcester.


I have had occasion to hear Leicester pronounced, but never heard anyone say Worcester (except as in Worcestershire sauce)....how is it pronounced? Is it Worster?

[livius drusus]

Wuh-stir and wuh-stir-shur, I believe. I've heard it called wuh-stir-sheer, too, but I think the shur is more ginyouwine.

[Dingfod]

Where I'm from I always heard Worcester and Worcestershire pronounced wooster and woostershur.

If Glouchester is pronounced glou-ster, isn't Dorchester pronounced door-ster?

Edit: Perhaps it is because I misspelt Gloucester.

[JoeP]

Gloucester is Gloss-stir, Worcester is Woos-stir with the 'oo' as in 'foot', Leicester is Less-stir. But Dorchester is Door-chest-er. The 'ses' syllable is more easily collapsed to a single 's' phoneme than 'ches' where the phonemes are different. Likewise, Lancaster has a hard 'c' and doesn't get collapsed.

'Borough' usually gets collapsed too, pronounced 'bru' in Middlesborough, Loughborough (Luff-bru), Peterborough - although a very few people do pronounce the full 'borough'. But then some people say 'Edinburra'.

That's about it for bits of place names actually not pronounced. Presumably y'all have no problem with Warwick, Keswick, Llandudno, Merthyr Tydfil, Yeovil, Chatham, Uttoxeter, Kingussie, Kirkcaldy and Drumnadrochit?

joe

[Ymir's blood]

So how do you pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

(That's odd, it was typed as one word but displays with a break in it.)

:popcorn:

[HelenM]

Wuh-stir and wuh-stir-shur, I believe. I've heard it called wuh-stir-sheer, too, but I think the shur is more ginyouwine.


Actually, where I come from those 'r's are silent, so those words are pronounced Woo-stuh and woo-stuh-shuh, where 'oo' is pronounced as in 'wood'. 'Shire' is pronounced as 'shuh' where I grew up. Which was near "Oxfd" (Oxford) in "Oxfdshuh" (Oxfordshire). For what it's worth, I went to school at the University of "Warrick" (Warwick).

'Borough' usually gets collapsed too, pronounced 'bru' in Middlesborough,

Actually Middlesbrough has no 'o' before the 'r' - it's a spelling anomaly. I know because my Dad is from there.

I have a pronounciation question: why do Americans call Ralph Vaughan Williams "Rafe" Vaughan Williams? Surely Ralph the English name is pronounced as it looks?

Helen

[wade-w]

I have a pronounciation question: why do Americans call Ralph Vaughan Williams "Rafe" Vaughan Williams? Surely Ralph the English name is pronounced as it looks?

Helen

"Rafe" is a nickname. Much like many people named "John" are often called "Jack."

Another example of a city whose pronunciation is not what you'd think from looking at the way it's spelled is Norfolk (the American port city and naval base, not the place in England). The locals pronounce it as Nah fuck with the stress on the Nah.

[JoeP]

'Borough' usually gets collapsed too, pronounced 'bru' in Middlesborough,

Actually Middlesbrough has no 'o' before the 'r' - it's a spelling anomaly. I know because my Dad is from there.

I have a pronounciation question: why do Americans call Ralph Vaughan Williams "Rafe" Vaughan Williams? Surely Ralph the English name is pronounced as it looks?

Helen
And I was so sure I got Middlesborough from the map. :blush: Anyway.

Why do Americans, who supposedly hate the French, pronounce fillet the French way instead of fill-ett?

[JoeP]

So how do you pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

(That's odd, it was typed as one word but displays with a break in it.)

:popcorn:
The way it's spelled, of course. Welsh is pretty consistent in its pronunciation, few variants in orthography. As long as you can get the 'll' right and understand the 'w' is a vowel ('oo'), you're done.

Or you can say 'chlanfair-pee-gee' like most people.

[Ymir's blood]

So how do you pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

(That's odd, it was typed as one word but displays with a break in it.)

:popcorn:
The way it's spelled, of course. Welsh is pretty consistent in its pronunciation, few variants in orthography. As long as you can get the 'll' right and understand the 'w' is a vowel ('oo'), you're done.

Or you can say 'chlanfair-pee-gee' like most people.
:stwitch: :lalala: :weirdtv:

[HelenM]

I have a pronounciation question: why do Americans call Ralph Vaughan Williams "Rafe" Vaughan Williams? Surely Ralph the English name is pronounced as it looks?

Helen

"Rafe" is a nickname. Much like many people named "John" are often called "Jack."

If that's the case why do those fancy U.S. classical music radio stations use his nickname rather than his actual name? They don't use nicknames for other composers, as far as I'm aware. I don't think they can know it's a nickname.

Another example of a city whose pronunciation is not what you'd think from looking at the way it's spelled is Norfolk (the American port city and naval base, not the place in England). The locals pronounce it as Nah fuck with the stress on the Nah.

But that is the pronounciation of the English county, also. Suffolk is similar.

Which reminds me - Norwich is pronounced "Norridge" (rhymes with porridge).

Helen

[HelenM]

'Borough' usually gets collapsed too, pronounced 'bru' in Middlesborough,

Actually Middlesbrough has no 'o' before the 'r' - it's a spelling anomaly. I know because my Dad is from there.

I have a pronounciation question: why do Americans call Ralph Vaughan Williams "Rafe" Vaughan Williams? Surely Ralph the English name is pronounced as it looks?

Helen
And I was so sure I got Middlesborough from the map. :blush: Anyway.

Was it a cheap map? :D

Why do Americans, who supposedly hate the French, pronounce fillet the French way instead of fill-ett?

They've only hated the French since the French didn't support the war on Iraq. The pronounciation predates that.

I think it's funny how Americans pronounce pasta (how an English person would pronounce passed-a). Isn't the real pronounciation with a short a in the first syllable, as in 'hat' pronounced by English people? But then, Americans don't say that vowel sound, I suppose.

It's funny too how my daughter will add 'r' sounds into what I say if she doesn't know the word - I guess she 'translates' into American as best she can. (I still sound mostly British, despite living in the US for almost 20 years)

Helen

[JoeP]

I think it's funny how Americans pronounce pasta (how an English person would pronounce passed-a). Isn't the real pronounciation with a short a in the first syllable, as in 'hat' pronounced by English people? But then, Americans don't say that vowel sound, I suppose.

Helen
The English pronunciation would be as in hat ... or as in hasta la vista. But the "real" pronunciation is the Italian 'a' which is not quite the same. It's longer and less tense (phonetically speaking) than the English short 'a', but closer to it than the English long 'a' which Americans use. Odd.

[wade-w]

I have a pronounciation question: why do Americans call Ralph Vaughan Williams "Rafe" Vaughan Williams? Surely Ralph the English name is pronounced as it looks?

Helen

"Rafe" is a nickname. Much like many people named "John" are often called "Jack."

If that's the case why do those fancy U.S. classical music radio stations use his nickname rather than his actual name? They don't use nicknames for other composers, as far as I'm aware. I don't think they can know it's a nickname.

/me shrugs

I was just pointing out the general case. I have never heard of this person nor heard this particular usage.



Another example of a city whose pronunciation is not what you'd think from looking at the way it's spelled is Norfolk (the American port city and naval base, not the place in England). The locals pronounce it as Nah fuck with the stress on the Nah.

But that is the pronounciation of the English county, also. Suffolk is similar.


I had no idea one way or the other. My qualification was meant to specify what I was talking about, and was in no way intended to imply that the English place name was not pronounced this way.

[Socratoad]

Was it a cheap map? :D

Helen

Probably. I have a cheap radio, you can't even believe either the news or the weather coming from it :D

[godfry n. glad]

So how do you pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

(That's odd, it was typed as one word but displays with a break in it.)

:popcorn:
The way it's spelled, of course. Welsh is pretty consistent in its pronunciation, few variants in orthography. As long as you can get the 'll' right and understand the 'w' is a vowel ('oo'), you're done.

Or you can say 'chlanfair-pee-gee' like most people.

And for something only a little different, this is the one that threw me in Ireland: Dun Laoghaire.

It's Gaelic in origin.

I, of course, made a fool of myself mispronouncing it while there. They all smiled knowingly and calmly corrected me.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how long the places like Leichester, Warwick and the like have been extant? Could it be that these locales have gone through multiple linguistic changes (Celtic to Angle and Saxon to Danish to Norman and then the reassertion of the Angle), and in that process, differing linguistic styles of pronunciation?

godfry

[HelenM]

I have a pronounciation question: why do Americans call Ralph Vaughan Williams "Rafe" Vaughan Williams? Surely Ralph the English name is pronounced as it looks?

Helen

"Rafe" is a nickname. Much like many people named "John" are often called "Jack."

If that's the case why do those fancy U.S. classical music radio stations use his nickname rather than his actual name? They don't use nicknames for other composers, as far as I'm aware. I don't think they can know it's a nickname.

* wade-w shrugs

I was just pointing out the general case. I have never heard of this person nor heard this particular usage.

Ok, fair enough.



Another example of a city whose pronunciation is not what you'd think from looking at the way it's spelled is Norfolk (the American port city and naval base, not the place in England). The locals pronounce it as Nah fuck with the stress on the Nah.

But that is the pronounciation of the English county, also. Suffolk is similar.


I had no idea one way or the other. My qualification was meant to specify what I was talking about, and was in no way intended to imply that the English place name was not pronounced this way.

Sorry, I think I came across as more argumentative than I intended. At first I didn't realize you were talking about the American place pronounciation, since what you said matched the British one. I expect the US pronounciation derives from the British one and that's why it's odd :P

Helen

[HelenM]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how long the places like Leichester, Warwick and the like have been extant? Could it be that these locales have gone through multiple linguistic changes (Celtic to Angle and Saxon to Danish to Norman and then the reassertion of the Angle), and in that process, differing linguistic styles of pronunciation?

godfry

Yes, I expect that's why.

On our last trip to England I read that 'chester' is the Saxon word for a Roman town. I always thought that it was a Roman word because it's associated with towns dating back to Roman times. (Although in the back of my mind I knew really that Roman town names ended in um - which rather contradicts what I just wrote) Anyway, it didn't occur to me until I read it that chester was what 'the natives' called the Roman towns. I expect cester is a contraction of chester. Anyway, I guess the Saxons weren't feeling very creative when they named Chester. :D

Helen

[Leesifer]

Off topic

Leicester

WHY is this name pronounced Lester? 4 silent letters, including a consonant, seems excessive.


It's because we are totally evil in Britain and just love confusing the rest of the world. :yup:

Another one you might like is a London borough town called Plaistow - it's pronounced 'Plahstow'.

[HelenM]

I just thought of another: isn't Towcester pronounced "Toaster" ("Toastuh")?

Helen

[Leesifer]

It certainly is!

We also have a great time with certain names.

For example:

"Mr Cholmondeley" would be pronounced "Mr Chumley".

"Mrs Featherstonehaugh" would be pronounced "Mrs Fanshaw".

[Socratoad]

Can anyone explain to me how come Mr Saint John is pronounced Mr. Sinjun?

[Leesifer]

I have no idea but am trying to find out.

I used to work with someone who's middle name was St. John (sin jin) but she had no idea why it was pronounced that way.

[Petra]

I think names like Ralph (Rafe) and Saint John (Sinjin) have pronunciations that are derivative of the French, but I'm not 100% on that one.

[Adora]

And then there's "worcestershire".
Hee hee. Say it like Sean Connery XD.

Can anyone explain to me how come Mr Saint John is pronounced Mr. Sinjun?
Maybe it's a Raj thing?

But that is the pronounciation of the English county, also. Suffolk is similar.
And here, Norfolk Island is Nor-(as in "North")folk (as in "naught queer as").

Of course, my mother laughs at me when I pronounce "folk" with the l in it, instead of "foke". But what would she know. She's just a NSW country bumpkin. :P

[Darren]

The spelling of Leicester reflects the derivation of this name from the Latin Legacaster, which originally meant something like the "camp of the Legion". All English placenames ending in -caster, -cester, -xeter as well as Chester reflect towns which grew from Roman military settlements (from Latin castrum, meaning a military encampment) and are thus among the oldest English placenames i.e. they have had plenty of time to change, contraction being one of the most obvious changes over time.
The original Latin word had an unvoiced velar stop [k], and would have been adopted by the Anglo-Saxon language as such when these people arrived in Britain in the 5th c AD.
Later on, the Southern dialects "weakened" this sound in many positions to an unvoiced palato-alveolar affricate [ts] (pronounced like the ch in standard English "church", I can't access the correct IPA symbol for the -sh- sound so I've just used an -s-). The Northern dialects retained the unvoiced velar stop [k] - (compare Northern and Scots Kirk to Southern church, or Northern placenames in -wick like Keswick with Southern -wich e.g. Norwich) So we have Northern Lancaster and Southern Dorchester, for example.
The difference between the two probably reflects a Scandinavian influence on the Northern and Scots pronounciations - especially since the distribution of relevant placenames in England seems to corrospond to the location of the mediaeval Danelaw.
Anyway, to get back to Leicester, the g of Legacester was probably lost by weakening of the g to a voiced fricative and then to 0 by loss of salience, leaving something like "lechester" (with stress on the first syllable), by which point the spelling of the name would have become fixed by official custom. Then contraction probably squeezed out the (no-doubt unstressed vowel) in the middle leaving an unwieldy consonant cluster in the middle -tsh-s-t-, and finally the -tsh- was probably assimilated to the -s-, leaving the pronounciation "lester". Since the spelling would have been formalized before these last two changes took place, it barely reflects the actual pronounciation of the name.

[JoeP]

:bow: Darren. Shifts in pronunciation are fascinating.

[livius drusus]

I'll second that :bow:. Really interesting stuff, Darren. Now I know the etymology of the Castro Pretorio metro stop in Rome. Thank you.