Grrrr!

[LadyShea]

Why oh why does trying to follow people's preferences and not be a total boor always get me called a PC Nazi, PC Police, or just have PC spat at me like it's some kind of poison?

What the hell is so wrong with sensitivity?

Just a rant, feel free to ignore.

[Legs]

What happened? more details please... oh and a :hug:

[lisarea]

Why oh why does trying to follow people's preferences and not be a total boor always get me called a PC Nazi, PC Police, or just have PC spat at me like it's some kind of poison?

I dunno. I figure, if people are going to be assholes, they should just cop to it and be assholes, without making some pantywaist appeal to populism like that. The argument seems to be, "I'm too stupid to be held accountable for what I say." I really, honestly think that, if people are allowed to call you shit like that, you should be allowed to call them fucking idiots.

It's also all ironimical when they say that, because there are few things more politically correct than calling people politically correct.

[pescifish]

Apparently, you are just a tool of the PC Police, LadyShea. :rolleye2:

[livius drusus]

It's just another rationalization for abusiveness, a way to justify cruelty by invoking some high principle. "I'm not a mean SOB; I just reject your PC impositions on my freedom."

[viscousmemories]

:yeahthat:

[Stormlight]

It's just another rationalization for abusiveness, a way to justify cruelty by invoking some high principle. "I'm not a mean SOB; I just reject your PC impositions on my freedom."

Yes. Also, it makes them feel like real rebels: "I won't have none of your PC bullshit. I tell it like it is!" :sarclap:

[Carnivale Ed]

It's just another rationalization for abusiveness, a way to justify cruelty by invoking some high principle. "I'm not a mean SOB; I just reject your PC impositions on my freedom."
Without any evidence to the contrary, isn't it just possible LadyShea is a PC Nazi? I remember at least one thread aroung here in recent months substantially devoted to debating that very issue.

What the hell is so wrong with sensitivity?
Sensitivity is one thing. Seeing racists, or whoever, under the bed, is quite another. Without knowing exactly what you're talking about, I can't judge which one might apply to you. I remember being annoyed at your self-serving OP in the 'Insidious racism/bigotry' thread, however. Give us the quote, and give us the context, and then we can console or berate you as the situation warrants.

[LadyShea]

Seeing racists, or whoever, under the bed, is quite another

You may disagree with me, that doesn't mean I see racists under the bed

Ed, being annoyed is fine. Telling me I am wrong and why you think so is fine. I will debate the issue all day and try to explain my position. However, putting your hands over your ears and saying "you're PC, you're PC" isn't a discussion.

I don't want to discuss this latest issue specifically, it happens quite a lot, whether we are discussing race, feminism, GLBT issues...you name it.

As an example, if you called someone Mrs. Smith, and she states she prefers Ms. Jones-Smith, would you call her by her preferred name? Would you resent it? Would you ask her WHY? Would you call her a feminazi behind her back? If I told you that my friend prefers to be called Ms. Jones-Smith would you say I was being PC?

[livius drusus]

Without any evidence to the contrary, isn't it just possible LadyShea is a PC Nazi? I remember at least one thread aroung here in recent months substantially devoted to debating that very issue.

No, sorry, it's not. I don't think PC Nazis exist the way that term is generally used. Even if she did see racists under under the bed, what would PC have to do with it?

[viscousmemories]

:yeahthat: again.

Besides, the question is loaded with "absent any evidence to the contrary". I've interacted with LadyShea via discussion board, chat, phone and in person over the last three years, and I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary of her being a "PC Nazi" as I understand the term.

(Incidentally there's a good discussion of the use of "political correctness" as a blunt instrument in this thread (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3929)).

[LadyShea]

Some real life examples where I have been called PC:

Informing people that we prefer "Cade was adopted" to "Cade is adopted"

Explaining that Asian is the currently preferred term for people and that Oriental is reserved for things like rugs and vases and food.

Using the term intersexed instead of hermaphrodite

[livius drusus]

Informing people that we prefer "Cade was adopted" to "Cade is adopted"

Unbefuckinglievable, and it really underscores just how much wanton rudeness is involved. Race and gender nomenclature at least has political implications. There's nothing even remotely political about wanting people to treat your son like he's your son.

[LadyShea]

Unbefuckinglievable, and it really underscores just how much wanton rudeness is involved. Race and gender nomenclature at least has political implications. There's nothing even remotely political about wanting people to treat your son like he's your son.

You're exactly correct. To many, trying to use respectful language to replace outdated or insensitive terms, in any given situation is some kind of pandering to someone, and therefore it's PC.

Granted in this particular scenario is was more of an embarrassed "Oh is that your policially correct way of saying the exact same thing?"

Once I educated this particular person- that there is a big difference as "was" is used to denote a past event/action, as opposed to "is" which implies an inherent trait or specific label- they understood.

[Puck]

"Oh is that your policially correct way of saying the exact same thing?"

Well, that was a rather nasty reply. We all can be guilty of making mistakes, but to be rude when corrected is not called for.

I was corrected for using the term Oriental, and I was baffled at first, embarassed a second later, and got over it. I didn't know, that was all. Really, at this point, Cade's arrival in your life should be moot. He's y'all's son, plain and simple.

[Carnivale Ed]

You may disagree with me, that doesn't mean I see racists under the bed
As I said, I can't agree or disagree with you until you decide to tell me what you're talking about. Consider my skepticism of your position, however, as being a manifestation of me 'following your preferences'.

Ed, being annoyed is fine. Telling me I am wrong and why you think so is fine. I will debate the issue all day and try to explain my position. However, putting your hands over your ears and saying "you're PC, you're PC" isn't a discussion.
Nor is intruding yourself in a conversation, swearing at people, and calling them racist, Mrs Pot-Kettle. The reason people might react so negatively towards you is because you insist on viewing their actions through your own narrow prism and, as pointed out in another thread, choosing the least charitable interpretation of them. A little of this understanding in the first instance might well save you a lot of grief in the long term.

I don't want to discuss this latest issue specifically, it happens quite a lot, whether we are discussing race, feminism, GLBT issues...you name it.
That's weak. As I said, you have no credibility with me in this area, and I would prefer to make up my own mind. In future, please don't post threads about how hard done by you are unless you're willing to show that you are, in fact, being hard done by. It's easy to moan about the faults of others when you don't hold the mirror up to yourself.

And, though it's not conclusive, the fact that this happens to you so often probably speaks more to your behaviour than anyone else's.

As an example, if you called someone Mrs. Smith, and she states she prefers Ms. Jones-Smith, would you call her by her preferred name? Would you resent it? Would you ask her WHY? Would you call her a feminazi behind her back? If I told you that my friend prefers to be called Ms. Jones-Smith would you say I was being PC?
It would entirely depend on the circumstances. If I referred to someone as Mrs Smith, and was politely informed that her name was actually Mrs Jones-Smith, I would certainly refer to her by her correct name in future, out of respect for Mrs Jones-Smith's preference. If, on the other hand, I introduced someone as Mrs Smith, and Mrs Jones-Smith didn't feel it necessary to correct me, but an interfering third party did, I might well consider that person to be an interfering busybody with too much time on their hands. I might apply the PC-tag if an accusation of sexism was thrown about, or simply assumed by the busybody, because then their motivation becomes more clear. They don't actually care what Mrs Jones-Smith name is, or if she's offended by the use of a shorthand version of it, only that it provides them with a convenient excuse to rail about their favourite perceived injustice.

[Carnivale Ed]

No, sorry, it's not. I don't think PC Nazis exist the way that term is generally used. Even if she did see racists under under the bed, what would PC have to do with it?
Good point, PC Nazi's as popularly portrayed may not really exist. The actual language used wasn't really my concern, however, just the moaning about how misunderstood she is. She's just 'sensitive', after all. My point is that we have no way to tell if LadyShea is just being sensitive, or if less flattering characterisations might be more appropriate. An insult thrown her way that invokes 'PC' may be technically incorrect, then, but it doesn't necessarily make the insult any less warranted. Who knows, maybe she's overly sensitive? Or just being pedantic? Or a martyr? Until we can make these determinations for ourselves, any support for LadyShea's position seems premature, the equivalent of a 'he said/she said' discussion.

[Carnivale Ed]

Besides, the question is loaded with "absent any evidence to the contrary".
The question isn't loaded. It contains an important qualification specific to this thread.

I've interacted with LadyShea via discussion board, chat, phone and in person over the last three years, and I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary of her being a "PC Nazi" as I understand the term.
And I haven't had such interactions. My limited experiences with LadyShea, however, lead me to conclude that such a label might well be appropriate (if technically incorrect, as noted above). It certainly precludes me from taking her at her word.

[Carnivale Ed]

Some real life examples where I have been called PC:

Informing people that we prefer "Cade was adopted" to "Cade is adopted"
A matter of tense, commonly confused in a thousand other circumstances. Would I call you PC? I don't know. Pedantic, certainly.

Explaining that Asian is the currently preferred term for people and that Oriental is reserved for things like rugs and vases and food.
Again, how do you go about it? If I refer to Jackie Chan as an Oriental in a discussion about his movies, and the conversation moves along to judging the merits of 'Rumble in the Bronx' over 'Shanghai Noon', and then you come in to insult me and take offence on behalf of Asians everywhere, yes, I might well call you a PC-somethingorother. Context is everything.

Using the term intersexed instead of hermaphrodite
An issue of clarity? I'll confess to never having heard the term intersexed before. I think I'll continue to use hermaphrodite in order to be understood.

[D. Scarlatti]

But they'll never take the place of "chicks with dicks."

[viscousmemories]

The question isn't loaded. It contains an important qualification specific to this thread.
I disagree.

[Ari]

IMHO PC is often used as a way to attack someone or something without needing to think or produce a coherent argument. Another non thinking buzz word.
Kind of like how many people use Liberal or Conservative.

Clearly Ladyshea is just another activist liberal feminist PC thug. :D

[Carnivale Ed]

The question isn't loaded. It contains an important qualification specific to this thread.
I disagree.
The qualification serves to indicate my (or 'our', as it was addressed to liv) willingness to stand corrected should LadyShea post whatever it is she's talking about, and I then find that I agree with her. It's important to me.

[viscousmemories]

You said:
Without any evidence to the contrary, isn't it just possible LadyShea is a PC Nazi?

Not:

Without any evidence to the contrary, isn't it just possible that LadyShea was justly accused of acting like a PC Nazi in this instance?

Had you said the latter I'd see your point, but if you're goal is to determine whether "PC Nazi" (or any other label) is generally applicable to LadyShea then your "absent evidence to the contrary" is simply false.

Like others (apparently) I read the OP as a general complaint about people who use "PC" as a generic criticism of common decency. So what you see as an important qualification specific to this thread seems like it could be a wholly irrelevant ad hom argument to me. I can see how you might interpret the OP as a request for assurances that her behavior in whatever specific incident inspired it was beyond reproach, but that doesn't strike me as a particularly charitable reading. Nor is it warranted (imo) to assume that the responses she got indicated blind endorsement, as you seem to be implying.

[Carnivale Ed]

You said:
Without any evidence to the contrary, isn't it just possible LadyShea is a PC Nazi?

Not:

Without any evidence to the contrary, isn't it just possible that LadyShea was justly accused of acting like a PC Nazi in this instance?

Had you said the latter I'd see your point, but if you're goal is to determine whether "PC Nazi" (or any other label) is generally applicable to LadyShea then your "absent evidence to the contrary" is simply false.
This seems like hair-splitting to me. The phrase 'PC Nazi' was conveniently borowed from the OP. The qualification added to give her the benefit of the doubt, and concede my impression of her might be wrong. It was never my intention, however, to disguise that impression (as the sentence immediately following it should have demonstrated). That still doesn't make the question loaded. A loaded question might have been, "Is LadyShea a PC Nazi, or just stupid?" Clearly, I didn't do anything like that. My question left plenty of room for people to disagree with my proposition, as you and liv so ably demonstrated.

Like others (apparently) I read the OP as a general complaint about people who use "PC" as a generic criticism of common decency. So what you see as an important qualification specific to this thread seems like it could be a wholly irrelevant ad hom argument to me. I can see how you might interpret the OP as a request for assurances that her behavior in whatever specific incident inspired it was beyond reproach, but that doesn't strike me as a particularly charitable reading. Nor is it warranted (imo) to assume that the responses she got indicated blind endorsement, as you seem to be implying.
And all of your interpretations are just as valid as mine. I, too, can see how you came by them. I maintain, however, that there's nothing particularly general about the OP. LadyShea is specifically talking about herself, her experiences of being dismissed as a PC-Whatever. She even goes so far as to imply that she's undeserving of such treatment - "What the hell is so wrong with sensitivity?" The idea that maybe her own behaviour and demeanour has something to do with it apparently hasn't occurred to her. You're quite right in saying this is not a particularly charitable interpretation, however. As I said, she burned me once with a self-serving OP. It's now up to her to show this is not something similar.

As for blanket acceptance, I believe most people were replying to the OP in the sense that you've outlined. I got that, that's why I posted in the first place, to offer my interpretation. Legs had the best response, though : more details please.

[livius drusus]

My point is that we have no way to tell if LadyShea is just being sensitive, or if less flattering characterisations might be more appropriate. An insult thrown her way that invokes 'PC' may be technically incorrect, then, but it doesn't necessarily make the insult any less warranted.
Ah, see, to me the inaccurate application of the label was the entire point of the thread, and most definitely my concern.

Who knows, maybe she's overly sensitive? Or just being pedantic? Or a martyr? Until we can make these determinations for ourselves, any support for LadyShea's position seems premature, the equivalent of a 'he said/she said' discussion.

She can have been all those things and 20 more and the insult "PC Nazi" would still not be warranted. I don't think you can pull a non-politicized essence out of the insult and ask if it applies to her behavior in a given situation. There is no non-politicized essence.

That is the position of LadyShea's I am supporting, although I can see how the OP and subsequent post could be interpreted your way as well.

[LadyShea]

Informing people that we prefer "Cade was adopted" to "Cade is adopted"
A matter of tense, commonly confused in a thousand other circumstances. Would I call you PC? I don't know. Pedantic, certainly.

Commonly confused? Can you name me any other instance, besides adoption, where one uses a past event as a label like that? Does anyone say "JFK is assasinated"? "My child is born"? "I am tested for cancer but it was negative"? "I am interviewed by Pete, but haven't heard back yet"?

This subtle distinction is important psychologically for children who were adopted. Adoption is merely how he came to be our son, not some trait he posseses or something he is. We also never use it as an adjective for the same reason. He is our son, not our adopted son. He is a child who was adopted, not an adopted child.

It is about sensitivity to the feelings of my child, and all people who were adopted, not pedantry.

Explaining that Asian is the currently preferred term for people and that Oriental is reserved for things like rugs and vases and food.
Again, how do you go about it? If I refer to Jackie Chan as an Oriental in a discussion about his movies, and the conversation moves along to judging the merits of 'Rumble in the Bronx' over 'Shanghai Noon', and then you come in to insult me and take offence behalf of Asians everywhere, yes, I might well call you a PC-somethingorother. Context is everything.

Correcting you is insulting? Explaining that the preferred term is Asian is taking offense? My exact and only words were "People are Asian, things are Oriental", since context is so important to you.

Colored and Negro were once preferred terms, they aren't anymore. Do you still use them? Why or why not? They aren't necessarily offensive like nigger, but considered outdated and baggage carrying...so it's insensitive to use them. Oriental is the same situation...not necessarily offensive, like Gook or Chink, but definitely boorish.
Using the term intersexed instead of hermaphrodite
An issue of clarity? I'll confess to never having heard the term intersexed before. I think I'll continue to use hermaphrodite in order to be understood.

That's fine for you. I have heard the term, I know it is preferred, and so I personally use it. In this case I was called PC simply for using it myself...I didn't correct anyone or anything.

[LadyShea]

My point is that we have no way to tell if LadyShea is just being sensitive, or if less flattering characterisations might be more appropriate. An insult thrown her way that invokes 'PC' may be technically incorrect, then, but it doesn't necessarily make the insult any less warranted.
Ah, see, to me the inaccurate application of the label was the entire point of the thread, and most definitely my concern.

It's not about whether I am overly sensitive, pedantic or whatever. The whole point is why people throw "PC" around as a way to simply dismiss someone completely. It's like some version of Godwin's law, it ends discussion by labelling someone PC though, instead of a Nazi.

Who knows, maybe she's overly sensitive? Or just being pedantic? Or a martyr? Until we can make these determinations for ourselves, any support for LadyShea's position seems premature, the equivalent of a 'he said/she said' discussion.

She can have been all those things and 20 more and the insult "PC Nazi" would still not be warranted. I don't think you can pull a non-politicized essence out of the insult and ask if it applies to her behavior in a given situation. There is no non-politicized essence.

Thank you livius, that is my whole bitch here. Call me pedantic, call me overly sensitive, or accuse me of martyrdom....but don't call me PC as if that is some kind of explanation for anything, and certainly not as a justification for ones own insensitivity and boorishness as in, "I am not a clod, you're just PC"

[LadyShea]

Nor is intruding yourself in a conversation, swearing at people, and calling them racist, Mrs Pot-Kettle.

At least racist has meaning. "PC" is meaningless and non-descriptive. And I wasn't "intruding in a conversation", I was responding to a public post on a discussion board.

The reason people might react so negatively towards you is because you insist on viewing their actions through your own narrow prism and, as pointed out in another thread, choosing the least charitable interpretation of them. A little of this understanding in the first instance might well save you a lot of grief in the long term
You only view me as the person who called someone a racist once, and aren't being charitable by assuming that maybe that situation was a one off for me, that my daily interactions may not be like that. Who else here is viewing others through a narrow prism? We are both black Mr. Kettle-Pot.


That's weak. As I said, you have no credibility with me in this area, and I would prefer to make up my own mind. In future, please don't post threads about how hard done by you are unless you're willing to show that you are, in fact, being hard done by. It's easy to moan about the faults of others when you don't hold the mirror up to yourself.

Wow. I really pissed you off huh? Wonder why you're so upset that I called someone a racist...maybe because you're an insensitive fuck that wants to use words like nigger and Jap and She-Male? No? Now perhaps you see how your generalizations about me feel.

I didn't say I was being hard done by, I asked why people use PC as an insult when it simply doesn't fit the situation and is essentially meaningless.

And, though it's not conclusive, the fact that this happens to you so often probably speaks more to your behaviour than anyone else's.

Perhaps you're right, or perhaps I come in contact with a lot of backwards ass morons.

It would entirely depend on the circumstances. If I referred to someone as Mrs Smith, and was politely informed that her name was actually Mrs Jones-Smith, I would certainly refer to her by her correct name in future, out of respect for Mrs Jones-Smith's preference. If, on the other hand, I introduced someone as Mrs Smith, and Mrs Jones-Smith didn't feel it necessary to correct me, but an interfering third party did, I might well consider that person to be an interfering busybody with too much time on their hands.

I see. So if I pulled you aside at a party to tell you there was booger hanging out of your nose, or you had been calling the hostess by the wrong name all night and she was too embarassed for you to correct you or some other social correction, you would consider me an interfering busybody? Noted.

I might apply the PC-tag if an accusation of sexism was thrown about, or simply assumed by the busybody, because then their motivation becomes more clear. They don't actually care what Mrs Jones-Smith name is, or if she's offended by the use of a shorthand version of it, only that it provides them with a convenient excuse to rail about their favourite perceived injustice.

You would not be called a sexist unless you did one of the things I originally listed, like ask her why she preferred Ms. to Mrs. or why she hyphenated her name, or continued calling her Mrs. Smith against her preferences, or called her a Feminazi after she had left.

So, who the hell are you ranting against here? What did I say that this hypothetical of yours even came to mind?

Again, you are not being charitable as it seems as if you are accusing me of something when I have said nothing to warrant such accusations. You also seem like maybe you have a bone to pick, but I don't think it's actually with me. You're a little too personally vexed by my discussions on these topics only for it to be based on our xtremely limited interactions. Hell, you only posted once in the racist thread.

[Carnivale Ed]

Commonly confused? Can you name me any other instance, besides adoption, where one uses a past event as a label like that? Does anyone say "JFK is assasinated"? "My child is born"? "I am tested for cancer but it was negative"? "I am interviewed by Pete, but haven't heard back yet"?
Just off the top of my head, here's (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7308&page=2&pp=25&onlybyuserid=0) a recent thread where members of this very forum discuss a similar quirk of language. As another example, I might offer the case of myself becoming a naturalised American. If such a thing happened, I'm sure my accent would betray my origins all over the United States. "You're Australian, right?" might be a common question I'd receive. "No, no, no," I'd answer, "I was Australian." Technically correct, but what a whinger I'd be if I went to the trouble of pointing it out.

This subtle distinction is important psychologically for children who were adopted. Adoption is merely how he came to be our son, not some trait he posseses or something he is. We also never use it as an adjective for the same reason. He is our son, not our adopted son. He is a child who was adopted, not an adopted child.
For the purposes of this discussion, and only this discussion, I couldn't care less. The idea that people mistaking tense is psychologically damaging to a child, however, I dismiss out of hand. You correcting people who make this unbelievably mild faux pas, however, is the most ridiculous veneer of parenting I've ever heard of. I presume you don't think such displays are in any way a replacement for genuine love, protection, and care. Focus on the things that actually matter, not what you do to feed your own ego as a good parent.

It is about sensitivity to the feelings of my child, and all people who were adopted, not pedantry.
In your opinion. Quite clearly, I disagree. It's interesting, though, that you don't even blush before speaking on behalf of all adopted people.

Correcting you is insulting? Explaining that the preferred term is Asian is taking offense? My exact and only words were "People are Asian, things are Oriental", since context is so important to you.
When you correct people, yes, I can well imagine it might be insulting.

Regardless, this is what you said, not the circumstances in which you said it. What were people discussing before you showed up to enlighten them? It's largely immaterial, though, as I've said, you have no credibility in this area with me. You've misled me about your behaviour before, and I'm not content to accept your word on the matter. Assuming the discussion took place online, please link to it, or whatever inspired this thread, so I might see for myself whether your characterisation is accurate.

Colored and Negro were once preferred terms, they aren't anymore. Do you still use them? Why or why not? They aren't necessarily offensive like nigger, but considered outdated and baggage carrying...so it's insensitive to use them. Oriental is the same situation...not necessarily offensive, like Gook or Chink, but definitely boorish.
Agreed, but I can also think of many situations in which I might choose to use any one of those words quite deliberately. Again, context is everything. I can well imagine my reaction, though, if I thought someone decided to take cheap shots at me over my use of them just because they have a pet axe to grind.

That's fine for you. I have heard the term, I know it is preferred, and so I personally use it. In this case I was called PC simply for using it myself...I didn't correct anyone or anything.
Finally, an example, if I do take you at your word, where someone calling you names might be unjustified.

[LadyShea]

This subtle distinction is important psychologically for children who were adopted. Adoption is merely how he came to be our son, not some trait he posseses or something he is. We also never use it as an adjective for the same reason. He is our son, not our adopted son. He is a child who was adopted, not an adopted child.
For the purposes of this discussion, and only this discussion, I couldn't care less. The idea that people mistaking tense is psychologically damaging to a child, however, I dismiss out of hand. You correcting people who make this unbelievably mild faux pas, however, is the most ridiculous veneer of parenting I've ever heard of. I presume you don't think such displays are in any way a replacement for genuine love, protection, and care. Focus on the things that actually matter, not what you do to feed your own ego as a good parent.

You obviously know exactly dick about the exhaustive study of the psychology of people who were adopted and what the professionals as well as those who were adopted have to say about it, and this is the one of the most assholish things I have ever had said to me.

Goodbye, Ed.

[godfry n. glad]

This subtle distinction is important psychologically for children who were adopted. Adoption is merely how he came to be our son, not some trait he posseses or something he is. We also never use it as an adjective for the same reason. He is our son, not our adopted son. He is a child who was adopted, not an adopted child.
For the purposes of this discussion, and only this discussion, I couldn't care less. The idea that people mistaking tense is psychologically damaging to a child, however, I dismiss out of hand. You correcting people who make this unbelievably mild faux pas, however, is the most ridiculous veneer of parenting I've ever heard of. I presume you don't think such displays are in any way a replacement for genuine love, protection, and care. Focus on the things that actually matter, not what you do to feed your own ego as a good parent.

Interesting. I don't think of it as "the most ridiculous veneer of parenting I've ever heard," but an indicator that the adoptive parent does have genuine love, protection, and care for the the child. I seems to me that your attitude about the whole thing, Ed, is to dismiss the child as "merely adopted" and "not really their child at all". Ergo, your insensitivity is appalling.

[Carnivale Ed]

At least racist has meaning. "PC" is meaningless and non-descriptive. And I wasn't "intruding in a conversation", I was responding to a public post on a discussion board.
The word racist having meaning is half the reason I'm in this discussion. You devalue it when you apply it in such a casual manner. And you were intruding in a conversation, whether you acknowledge it or not. You had no intention of discussing racial physical features, you just wanted to call attention to your own piousness.

You only view me as the person who called someone a racist once, and aren't being charitable by assuming that maybe that situation was a one off for me, that my daily interactions may not be like that.
That's what I'm trying to figure out, the other half of why I'm here. It's why I wish you'd link to what started all this. If your behaviour in the IIDB thread was a one-off, then fine, I'll cop to having misjudged you. If it's part of a trend, however, then I can happily take you with a grain of salt from now on and ignore your cries of "Wolf!"

Who else here is viewing others through a narrow prism? We are both black Mr. Kettle-Pot.
Really? This is not me engaging in substantive discussion? When I post, "LadyShea is a fucking PC thug and all her threads are bullshit," then you can accuse me of being black. And you won't find me at IIDB whinging about being misunderstood, either.

Wow. I really pissed you off huh? Wonder why you're so upset that I called someone a racist...maybe because you're an insensitive fuck that wants to use words like nigger and Jap and She-Male? No? Now perhaps you see how your generalizations about me feel.
Strawman anyone?

I didn't say I was being hard done by, I asked why people use PC as an insult when it simply doesn't fit the situation and is essentially meaningless.
In part it does. The other part asks what's wrong with being sensitive. The implication being that you are, in fact, sensitive, and not just annoying. Why oh why must people decide for themselves?

Perhaps you're right, or perhaps I come in contact with a lot of backwards ass morons.
Anything's possible.

I see. So if I pulled you aside at a party to tell you there was booger hanging out of your nose, or you had been calling the hostess by the wrong name all night and she was too embarassed for you to correct you or some other social correction, you would consider me an interfering busybody? Noted.
If the situations are as you describe, the this would come under the heading of polite correction, and I would be appreciative of it. It remains to be seen, however, if this is actually what you go about doing, particularly online.

You would not be called a sexist unless you did one of the things I originally listed, like ask her why she preferred Ms. to Mrs. or why she hyphenated her name, or continued calling her Mrs. Smith against her preferences, or called her a Feminazi after she had left.
I'll take being called sexist if I engaged in the last two. The first two, however, I can easily imagine myself asking. Have at me.

So, who the hell are you ranting against here? What did I say that this hypothetical of yours even came to mind?
I was attempting to demonstrate that context is a factor, as I have been all along, and that the way you go about things is at least as important as why you go about things.

Again, you are not being charitable as it seems as if you are accusing me of something when I have said nothing to warrant such accusations.
As stated, your self-serving description in the Insidious Racism thread annoyed me. I am intentionally not being charitable, as you used up all your benefit of the doubt over there.

You also seem like maybe you have a bone to pick, but I don't think it's actually with me. You're a little too personally vexed by my discussions on these topics only for it to be based on our xtremely limited interactions. Hell, you only posted once in the racist thread.
Consider this me (potentially) calling you on your bullshit. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. You link to whatever started this, and the OP doesn't contain the same degree of obfuscation about what went on, and I'll know I misjudged you. I can't imagine I'm the only one interested in finding out.

[Carnivale Ed]

Interesting. I don't think of it as "the most ridiculous veneer of parenting I've ever heard," but an indicator that the adoptive parent does have genuine love, protection, and care for the the child.
An indicator, sure, but not a replacement for, and that's what I meant by veneer. To seriously suggest that correcting strangers on a matter of tense is going to affect your child in any meaningful way is ludicrous, in my opinion. Is the child any less loved? Any less protected? Any less cared for? These are the things that matter, and nobody is ever going to convince me that grammar would be anything other than crushed under their weight.

I seems to me that your attitude about the whole thing, Ed, is to dismiss the child as "merely adopted" and "not really their child at all". Ergo, your insensitivity is appalling.
Why the quotation marks, I didn't say that? My point, however, was exactly the opposite - that no quirk of language would make LadyShea's son any more or less of her child. My point is precisely that use of such language is essentially meaningless. If LadyShea is the best mother in the world, saying "Cade is adopted" would make no difference, and if she's the worst mother in the world, saying "Cade was adopted" would make no difference. What makes the difference is actually being the best or worst mother in the world. I passed no comment on which of these LadyShea might be, though I'm sure she's terrific. As you said, the fact that she cares about such things is an indicator. I just don't think it actually makes any difference to the child.

[viscousmemories]

The idea that people mistaking tense is psychologically damaging to a child, however, I dismiss out of hand. You correcting people who make this unbelievably mild faux pas, however, is the most ridiculous veneer of parenting I've ever heard of. I presume you don't think such displays are in any way a replacement for genuine love, protection, and care. Focus on the things that actually matter, not what you do to feed your own ego as a good parent.
I hope the irony of your making this comment in the process of berating LadyShea for her supposedly unreasonable and uncharitable responses to others isn't lost on you, at least.

ETA: Sorry, I missed where you said you're being uncharitable intentionally. I suppose that excuses it. :rolleyes:

[Carnivale Ed]

You obviously know exactly dick about the exhaustive study of the psychology of people who were adopted and what the professionals as well as those who were adopted have to say about it, and this is the one of the most assholish things I have ever had said to me.

Goodbye, Ed.
I can't claim to be surprised, I knew involving your family in this discussion was going to be uncomfortable territory, for me as well as you. I knew there was a chance you'd be offended, but I went ahead anyway. My only excuse is that it wasn't designed to offend you, just to make a point. That probably still makes me an arsehole, though, and I apologise for any hurt caused. It doesn't matter where you are, you don't mess with family, I know that.

[pescifish]

To seriously suggest that correcting strangers on a matter of tense is going to affect your child in any meaningful way is ludicrous, in my opinion. Is the child any less loved? Any less protected? Any less cared for? These are the things that matter, and nobody is ever going to convince me that grammar would be anything other than crushed under their weight. Carnivale Ed, the distinction is not a simple matter of tense.

To say "Cade was adopted." uses the word "adopted" as the past tense of an action that was taken. To say "Cade is adopted." changes the use of the word "adopted" from a verb to a LABEL. It is not the difference between the past tense of "adopt" and the present tense (which would be stated more like "Cade is being adopted.")

It is the matter of placing a label on a child, dehumanizing him/her to a label that may or may not have a less-than-whole significance depending on why the person who said it chose to label the child.

Don't try to make this a "simple" issue of grammar: your apparent inability to recognize the real difference in the two statements only serves to highlight to me how easy it is for people to dehumanize others. Your continued indignation reminds me how much people wish they could keep doing it as much as they want without getting called on it.

[lisarea]

Um. So I was just fixing to say what pescifish beat me to, but I will say it some more, anyway, because I had my heart set on it.

What might just look like a present tense auxiliary verb (Cade is adopted) is actually an identity marker ([subject][verb][object]), so 'adopted' is a noun, as in the sentence "Cade is a boy."

Cade was adopted, OTOH, really is a verb particle, so the sentence "Cade was adopted" is the form [subject] [verb], the same structure as "Cade was sleeping."