Rap

[xorbie]

So aside from sound movie scores and light rock (Modest Mouse, Chilli Peppers, and the likes), I basically only listen to rap.

However, most of the people I listen to are not mainstream, which for the most part I don't like (with some notable exceptions, such as Nas, Jay Z and eminem).

Artists I listen to who are less known:

Eyedea
Illogic
Cannibal Ox
Royce the 5'9"
Slug
Brother Ali
el-p
Aesop Rock
Tonedeff
IT
Cannibus

I figured I should start this thread here, because the one in politics is hypothetically about politics, and I feel like more people might see it here.

So who here besides liv and luna enjoys rap? Who here hates it with a passion? I'm too tired now to say anything more.

[Dingfod]

Rap = Noise


It could be that my POV is slanted by age.

[xorbie]

It could be because you don't listen enough. Seriously.

There was a time I didn't really like it either. But now I really appreciate a song with a good beat, and an awesome flow over it. Rap just has a vocal rythm that sounds good to my ears. And the beats are awesome.

[Megatron]

I've listened to a good bit of it but I just don't find it very interesting. I guess there's just not enough noise and agitating dissonance or something (my taste of music ranges between eccentric and just plain fuckin' weird).

Eminem is fun, though...

[Dingfod]

I did used to enjoy Wil Smith... er, excuse me, The Fresh Prince (not the friggin TV show), M.C. Hammer, and Sir Mix-a-lot; that was some fun stuff back in the late 80s, early 90s. But, this angry shit I hear today, I can take or leave, most of the time, leave.

[livius drusus]

I'm very much looking forward to Nas's upcoming double album Street Disciple. His Bridging the Gap duet with Olu Dara on the Hip Hop Honors kicked ass.

Warren, there's been goofy party rap from the beginning and angry, "The Message" rap from the beginning. Some artists do both at the same time. Hip hop is a vast territory.

[Cool Hand]

I'm with Warrenly. As much as I dislike Will Smith the movie star, his Parents Just Don't Understand was a fun song and a terrific video.

The only other rap songs I ever payed any attention to were Blondie's Rapture in 1980, and the Beastie Boys' You've Gotta Fight (for Your Right to Party) in 1986 or so, and that's just because you couldn't go to a single college bar or party without hearing it that year. Yes, I agree again with Warrenly that it's mostly an age thing. If you were in high school in the 70s or earlier, as I was, rap is likely to be worse than fingernails on a chalkboard to your ears.

To my sensibilities, rap isn't and never will be music. Please don't tell me I just don't understand it or haven't given it a chance. If you do, I will tell you not to knock eating baked rocks with mud frosting and a nice cesspool tea because you haven't tried them yet.

Cool Hand

[D. Scarlatti]

They say rap is music, but there are never any musicians on stage or in the videos. How does that work?

[livius drusus]

Well, Scarlatti, I kinda suspect you really haven't been looking much, or you would most likely have bumped into such acts as The Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Run DMC, Public Enemy, Nas, and even Cypress Hill on that Simpsons episode, all of whom have featured instrumental musicians on stage and/or in the videos.

Secondly, ever since a little invention some like to call the phonograph, it is not strictly necessary for musicians to play instruments live in order for there to be music. Actually, now that I think of it, it's never been necessary for musicians to play live instruments for music to be made. Surely a capella singing is music, no? Gregorian chants are music. Bobby McFerrin can recreate an entire orchestra with his soft palate; weird though it may be, it's definitely music.

[Godless Dave]

Shout out for Slug because he's from Minneapolis!

I like the Beastie Boys and Public Enemy the best; also Blackalicious, the Roots, Cypress Hill, MC 900 Foot Jesus, and House of Pain. There are a couple Outkast cuts I like.

There is probably much more I would like if I heard it, but I can't stand the stuff on the radio so I'm not exposed to very much. I also find rap not particularly accessible; I have to listen to a cut a few times before I decide if I like it.

I like Nike but wait a minute
The neighborhoods are poor so put some money in it - Chuck D.

[wei yau]

Oddly enough, the way I feel abut rap is similiar to the way livius feels about baseball.

I don't listen to the music. Don't really keep up with the major or minor stars.

But, I am fascinated by its impact on popular culture. The recent VH1 series "And you don't stop" was just great to watch. So, I acknowledge that rap is music (what else would it be?) and I recognize the huge impact it has had in our everyday society.

I just don't like listening to it. Or I should say, I'm not interested in it...though I've rarely heard a piece that I didn't like.

[Socratoad]

According to the Toad, Rap and music do not dwell in the same realm. But thankfully mere humans were not created by the same cookie cutter and so I have no desire for this noise to be banned ...... but please, please do not play it within the sound of these sensitive ears. Can't tell ya just how many times I have damned near broken a leg trying to get to the off button on my radio when this nihilistic mind-numbing insult to my aural senses has rudely been assaulted.

As Cool Hand has so eloquently summarized, I find the attempts by aficionados of this trash-beat noise even more excruciating. No NO NO, I will not come to appreciate the "art" and "talent" that it takes to create this bilge if only I have an open mind and an attentive ear. But people people, I pride myself in travelling that extra mile in order to keep an open mind ...... but not so open that my brains fall out and I no longer am capable of discernment. And so I can no more learn to appreciate rap then I am capable of learning to appreciate three vertical painted stripes on a canvas as "great art".

I am well aware of the honourable roots from which Rap devolved, dub poetry, etc, alas devolved is the key word here. I suspect that the popularity that this undogly noise has attained among the younger members of society is more a cry of alienation, and genuine frustration of our less than admirable culture than it is about enjoyment.

When I have actually braced myself to listen to this nihilist nerve grating waste product I have become even more enraged, not by the beat but so much of the misogynist hate-filled lyrics than almost anything I have had the misfortune of hearing. Yes yes, not all RAP is like that ..... no just the most popular. And why a woman would like this shit boggles the mind, unless she is into masochism bigtime. As a father of three daughters I honestly wanted to choke the living shit out of some asshole who so richly deserves it, namely the sick pricks that write such dehumanizing mind-rotting stuff.

In short: Its the society stupid. a genuine attempt to repair the ills of society would ensure that Rap would whither on the vine and mercifully die a natural death.


Oh did I mention that RAP is not among my favourite thangs :D

Disclaimer: the rant above does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the management, or anyone else for that matter :chin:

[D. Scarlatti]

I agree it's music, but it rarely contains any original or interesting musicianship, since most of the backing tracks are drum loops and sequenced bits ripped off from other records.

I guess that's not the point though. I've never bothered to investigate any of the more obscure acts; I find it all pretty boring. But what I do come across on MTV2 occasionally is just awful, lots of ridiculous jewelry, expensive cars, fleshy buttocks, and idiotic looking sports uniforms. I generally can't tell one from another. There seems to be literally hundreds of acts that all sound exactly the same as the others. What I've heard is stultifyingly formulaic, some guy raps, then some chick sings a one line melody, then the guy raps, etc., etc.

I saw this thing on MTV2 the other night, it was "Eminem's Greatest Live Performances" or something like that. One of them was from the Grammys, and Eminem was outside Radio City Music Hall with a bunch of people dressed like him, and they all paraded inside going, "My name is, my name is ..." It was just so stupid, I couldn't believe people were actually enjoying it.

[Godless Dave]

I see it as a matter of taste. I like rap music, but explaining why I like it will not convince someone else to like it. I see a lot of creativity (potentially) involved in sampling loops from other songs. I also see that like all popular music, 90% of it is crap, and crap is what gets the most airplay because the music industry, like the film and TV industries, is run by people who don't enjoy or appreciate what they are selling.

But it's a matter of taste. I don't like classical music, but I can't say it's not music or that people who enjoy it are nuts.

[livius drusus]

But, I am fascinated by its impact on popular culture. The recent VH1 series "And you don't stop" was just great to watch.

Wasn't it, though? I think I must have seen that all the way through at least twice.

I just don't like listening to it. Or I should say, I'm not interested in it...though I've rarely heard a piece that I didn't like.

And that's where the baseball analogy ends. :P

[godfry n. glad]

Rap?

Uh...I don't know it well, and what I've heard of late, I don't particularly care for.

Do The Last Poets and Gil Scott Heron count? Or are they too....ancient?

godfry

The revolution will not be televised...the revolution will be live!

[Ronin]

I don't like rap or country.

I've listened to both and still watch the respective popular videos representing both.

They suck.

This is my opinion based (of course) on what I prefer.

I also find millionaires singing themes of being "downtrodden" by the system (even those in rock/alternative) will always suck.

.02

[godfry n. glad]

I don't like rap or country.

Even the Dixie Chicks?

Ooops...off topic.

godfry

[xorbie]

As others have said, and as I said, I don't like popular rap much either. If you watch MTV, BET or something, you'll probably see people I don't listen to at all. Lyrically, it's not all bland, the music can actually be quite innovative (and fucking sweet), and the artists incredibly talented.

I also find rap not particularly accessible; I have to listen to a cut a few times before I decide if I like it.

Lyrically, yes. Rap songs tend to have more lyrical content, and so it's tough to say. But for me, it's easier to decide if like they way a track sounds if it's rap than something else. Perhaps because I listen to mostly rap?


Shout out for Slug because he's from Minneapolis!

So are Eyedea and Brother Ali, they're all part of Rhymesayers. Buy their CD's. Now.

[livius drusus]

But people people, I pride myself in travelling that extra mile in order to keep an open mind ...... but not so open that my brains fall out and I no longer am capable of discernment. And so I can no more learn to appreciate rap then I am capable of learning to appreciate three vertical painted stripes on a canvas as "great art".

This seems to me to be in conflict with your gustibus non est disputandum disclaimer. I consider myself to be quite capable of discernment, nor have my brains fallen out from trying to approach rap with an open mind, cognizant of how insufficient generalizations tend to be. If you are suggesting that for you, such an approach would be tantamount to brainectomy when it is not for others, I'd like to know why. "Because I don't like rap" doesn't really explain this quote.

I am well aware of the honourable roots from which Rap devolved, dub poetry, etc, alas devolved is the key word here. I suspect that the popularity that this undogly noise has attained among the younger members of society is more a cry of alienation, and genuine frustration of our less than admirable culture than it is about enjoyment.

That's just not true, Toad. Is it really so hard to believe that people (of all ages) enjoy rap for a myriad reasons that you have to pin it on rebellion?

Yes yes, not all RAP is like that ..... no just the most popular. And why a woman would like this shit boggles the mind, unless she is into masochism bigtime.

I like it when the beat is good, the lyrics deft, the rhymes unusual. I like it when it's funny, just like I like Eddie Murphy's sketches which rely on racist premises because the approach is novel or fresh. I like it when it's part of the wider repetoir of an artist which includes respect and appreciation for women.

I like Sir Mix-A-Lot's my anaconda don't want none unless it's got buns, hon, because the way the internal rhyme falls on the beat amuses me, as well as just the phrase itself. I like Snoop talking about how it's always the same ho in rap videos because the wide-eyed amazement in that low, Mississippi purr of his just cracks me up. I like Tupac saying he's hitting switches on bitches like he's been fixed with hydraulics because it's an outstanding rhyme, it sounds like fucking, he was crazy sexy and because he also did "Dear Mama" and "Keep Your Head Up".

I like it because I don't internalize it and because I have no difficulty believe that other people are capable of making the same distinctions I make.

In short: Its the society stupid. a genuine attempt to repair the ills of society would ensure that Rap would whither on the vine and mercifully die a natural death.

That's just so odd to me. It's like saying a genuine attempt to repair the ills of society would eliminate folk music because some hippies dug it. :shrug:

[lisarea]

Well, I don't actually follow rap or anything, but sometimes, I do end up listening to the Basementalism show on the college radio, and I like lots of stuff that I don't know what it is. There's a whole world of stuff out there that's not the dumbassed crap on MTV and the Clear Channel stations.

For us old guys, think Gil Scott-Heron and Grandmaster Flash. Their traditions are still going. There's still angry, articulate rap and fun, happy rap out there. It's not all that dumb Ludacris style junk.

Tell me there's something so fundamentally broken in you that you don't love Gil Scott-Heron. Grandmaster Flash? Hating Grandmaster Flash is like hating ice cream sandwiches or something. You're going to have to tell me explicitly that you hate those guys before I believe your sweeping pronouncements on all of rap.

Public Enemy! They're like the angriest Care Bears ever or something.

De La Soul. Listen to Three Feet High and Rising. Just once. This is one of those perfect, perfect albums where each song stands on its own, but as a whole, it's just fucking PERFECT. It's funny, it's smart, it's sweet. Potholes in My Lawn has yodeling and mouth harps. Muppets could sing Tread Water right on Sesame Street and probably nobody would complain. How can you not love De La Soul? If you can listen to Can U Keep a Secret or A Little Bit of Soap and not be insane fucking happy, you're just pathologically old and you probably need to go chase some kids off your lawn while shaking your fist impotently at the big empty sky. So THERE.

Tribe Called Quest. Q-Tip. You love Q-Tip.

Handsome Boy Modeling School! Named after an episode of Get A Life!

BASEHEAD. Michael Ivey is a genius. A big insane crazy genius. And Lazy K will turn you gay! There's just something about the way he says, "Forty acres and a mule, motherfuckers" that makes your spine get all tingly. This is gorgeous, perfect, beautiful, angry, slow, melodic, very very stoned (except Faith, which is less stoned than it is insane) rap. I will burn anyone copies of Play with Toys and Not in Kansas Anymore in full confidence that, out of sheer unbridled devotion to the perfectness, they will go purchase legal copies of them of their own accord.

So, anyway, you can kind of see this timeline of when I stopped buying many CDs. There's a clear historical marker somewhere in the mid-90s, but like I said, there is stuff out there I'd buy if I were buying CDs. I heard something the other day I actually thought was Gil Scott-Heron (girl scout harem) the other day until I realized that no, someone else picked up the torch.

PS: I also love Snoop a little bit, but I tolerate dissent on that.

[Ronin]

I'm not getting most of this.

Telling the non-rap-liking folks here to just listen to this group or that group isn't convincing at all to me.

Why is simply saying "I think it sucks" less valid an opinion than saying "No, it's great...just listen to more of it...it really is bee-utiful"?

It seems to be the equivalent of persisting with "Being a Republican is great, you should just try it...no...really, really try it".

[livius drusus]

Who're you talking to, Ronin? I don't think I suggested any such thing in this thread, but rather have attempted to rebut a couple of points that just don't make sense to me.

Edit: If you mean lisarea's post, I think she's countering the penchant for rap=crap generalizations, not trying to make anyone listen to anything.

[godfry n. glad]

It seems to be the equivalent of persisting with "Being a Republican is great, you should just try it...no...really, really try it".

Or..."All you have to do is believe!"

godfry

[viscousmemories]

I started listening to Rap in the late 80's, and I haven't heard much I don't like. Yeah a lot of it bothers me for the glorification of misogyny, excessive consumption, etc. but for the most part it's just powerful, rhythmic, and inspirational in a very unique way - just like rock and/or roll, in fact. But I've been around people who insist it isn't music for as long as I've been listening to it, just like rock and/or roll. For some music died when they stopped playing big band on the radio. :P

At any rate I think it's safe to say that hip-hop is here to stay. On the other hand, I would like to take Country music behind the barn and put a .22 slug in the back of its head. How anyone can find a redeeming quality in that bile is beyond me. I like folk and bluegrass, though. For some reason there's just a limit to how much twang I can take.

[Ronin]

In summation:

Some people think rap sucks...yet understand that others like it and for reasons that those same people can articulate and personally value.

Some people think that rap is good stuff...yet understand that others don't like it and for reasons that those same people can articulate and personally value.

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.

How am I doing?

[godfry n. glad]

On the other hand, I would like to take Country music behind the barn and put a .22 slug in the back of its head. How anyone can find a redeeming quality in that bile is beyond me. I like folk and bluegrass, though. For some reason there's just a limit to how much twang I can take.

Again, even the Dixie Chicks? :eek:

Hey, I'd like to take the Dixie Chicks out behind the barn, but it wouldn't be to put a .22 slug in their collective head.
It might have something to do with head, though....

godfry

[viscousmemories]

In summation:

Some people think rap sucks...yet understand that others like it and for reasons that those same people can articulate and personally value.

Some people think that rap is good stuff...yet understand that others don't like it and for reasons that those same people can articulate and personally value.

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.

How am I doing?
I think you've got it. :yup:

Again, even the Dixie Chicks? :eek:

Hey, I'd like to take the Dixie Chicks out behind the barn, but it wouldn't be to put a .22 slug in their collective head.
It might have something to do with head, though....
Y'know, I'm not sure because I'm not really familiar with Dixie Chicks music. I have seen them on TV once or twice and I don't remember having to rush to the bathroom to vomit, though. Plus I know they made some kinda "unpatriotic" comment once though, so I like 'em for that.

[Godless Dave]

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.
Nope, not me.

Dixie Chicks
Merle Haggard
Johnny Cash
Neko Case
Steve Earl (only sort of country)

But almost all country music on commerical radio sucks the tailpipe of a big jacked-up Chevy truck with duallies and running boards.

[livius drusus]

Mmm... Johnny Cash... :homer:

[godfry n. glad]

In summation:

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.

How am I doing?

NOOOOOOOOOOoooooo!!!!

I could go for "ALL agree that MOST country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan."

But...y'see....for me there's always the Dixie Chicks. :deepsigh:

(I guess I'll just have to drag it over to the "Short Shameful Confessions" thread)

godfry

And Trish Yearwood, too!

[Farren]

I dig a fair amount of rap. The bling-bling stuff annoys me but I enjoy DMX, Eminem, Public Enemy and a lot of rap-rock/pop stuff like RATM and Black Eyed Peas.

What I honestly can't understand is how people can listen only to rap or predominently to rap. As cool as it is there are a plethora of qualities found in other music that's largely absent in rap. Its like eating nothing but varieties of Brussel Sprouts.

Rap as edgy contemporary poetic commentary appeals to me, which is why all the stupid unoriginal and repetitive shit about bitches, ho's, Rolexes and me me me does nothing for me. I especially like the dub poetry of artists like LKJ, which IMO has the same appeal as what is conventionally understood as "rap".

That kind of rap delights the mind in the same way poetry does and certainly has appealing rhythm. But most rap lacks the emotional range of sung music, so I thing rap alone is an emotionally deficient musical diet.

[lisarea]

Edit: If you mean lisarea's post, I think she's countering the penchant for rap=crap generalizations, not trying to make anyone listen to anything.

Yes. Liv usually does a good job of explaining my positions. I would not try to make you listen to anything, because you could probably kick my ass handily. But I would make suggestions from really far away, out of punching range.

My point, blustering and hyperbolic as it is, is that rap is just as misrepresented in popular culture as pretty much any other genre is. If you start a thread hating on country music, I'll be there making the same point, but with different guys. Mainstream rap does suck, for the most part, as does modern mainstream country music. And I relate 100% to the criticisms of that stuff. But all rap isn't just the ridiculous hackneyed rhyming that gets most of the attention, just as all country music isn't all jingoistic watered-down pop music sung by people wearing cartoony hats. There are valid reasons for disliking rap and country music as a whole. Insanity, deafness, stupidity, being a rock or other mineral, or being some kind of supernatural embodying an abstraction of evil. To name just a few.

But when someone calls rap 'noise,' I'm pretty sure I know which rap they're talking about, and I'm pretty sure they're missing the good stuff. Just because I can't imagine how the 'noise' critique could even apply, particularly to some of the soul-inspired, melodic stuff like Basehead. The noise argument could even apply to some of the people I mentioned, like maybe possibly Gil Scott-Heron and Public Enemy. But there are whole subgenres to which I can't even fathom how that critique applies. There's a lot of well-crafted, melodic rap out there, with real singing and everything. Maybe I'm just projecting, but when someone says rap is noise, I think I recognize the subcategory of rap they're talking about, and I hate to see that represented as all of rap.

Also, I enjoy poking the Toad with a stick. (He's the guy who called it noise. TOAD.) Now I am poking you with a stick.

And if you guys had pigtails, I would totally dip them in the inkwell and then run away really fast, too.

[Socratoad]

In summation:

Some people think rap sucks...yet understand that others like it and for reasons that those same people can articulate and personally value.

Some people think that rap is good stuff...yet understand that others don't like it and for reasons that those same people can articulate and personally value.

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.

How am I doing?

Let's see, How are you doing? well lets dissect this a bit.

Ya, some people like rap, but I'll be damned if I can comprehend why.

Now lets peek at country music. While country music has come to take in a rather wide field, including what has come to be known as "cross-over". in general I agree that its pretty vile stuff, especially that whiny, my best friend run away with my wife and horse and my heart is abreakin cuzz I luv thet ole hoss. type O crap.

Tis it not a strange phenomenon indeed that no matter where one may be, if some of that treacly country shit emanates from a radio then automatically yer shoes/boots become encrusted with a mixture of horse and cow shit.

But I freely admit my prejudice because every time I have been subjected to country music my mind pictures some damned ignoramus redneck who when asked about the Washington chimp is almost certain to say, "Whats wrong with our president, he's God -fearin and patriotic ...... wanna line dance?"

Methinks that it is compulsory that such persons must marry no one more distant than a first cousin.

Any more fan bases you wish me to attack? :madrant:

[livius drusus]

Ya, some people like rap, but I'll be damned if I can comprehend why.

Excuse you, Mr. :toad:man. There have been several rather detailed posts explaining exactly some people like some rap. Are you suggesting our posts were incomprehensible to you or are you just trying to get lisa to poke you some more?

[Godless Dave]

Any more fan bases you wish me to attack? :madrant:
Metalheads.

[Farren]

Socratoad, how about

:dj: ?

:D

There's a line from a Birtish rock song currently on the radio here:

"You think you're a superstar,
but a pill-popping jukebox is all that you are"

I understand that people just want to dance and so don't mind mindless, unstructured rhythm without any semblence of sophistication or carefully thought out progression, but DJ worship? There's something I never "got".

[Godless Dave]

I prefer

"You been in the game, your career is long
But when you really break it down you only got two songs." - Beastie Boys

[lisarea]

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.
Nope, not me.

Dixie Chicks
Merle Haggard
Johnny Cash
Neko Case
Steve Earl (only sort of country)



Hanks Sr. and III, because it skips a generation
Patsy Cline
16 Horsepower, for large enough values of 'country'
Tom Waits, " " " " " "
Roscoe Holcomb, " " " " " "
...which brings us to the uncomfortable limbo where white man country fades seamlessly into Memphis blues and we attempt to articulate the difference between Roscoe Holcomb and Lightnin' Hopkins, which seriously raises the disturbing possibility that some sort of rip in the space-time continuum caused the same man to be born twice within a single universe, once black and once white, and we are consequently able to witness how this accident of fate informs their musical development, and also how it makes that Gourds' cover of Snoop Dogg's Gin and Juice make a hell of a lot more sense than it may have otherwise...

And I would like to take this opportunity to state publically that I only listen to Slim Whitman in a hip and postmodern kind of way, though. You know, like because I'm COOL, and not that stupid obvious way that I might were I not, you know, COOL and stuff.

[Farren]

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.
Nope, not me.

Dixie Chicks
Merle Haggard
Johnny Cash
Neko Case
Steve Earl (only sort of country)



Hanks Sr. and III, because it skips a generation
Patsy Cline
16 Horsepower, for large enough values of 'country'
Tom Waits, " " " " " "
Roscoe Holcomb, " " " " " "


Tom Waits is country? Jesus, I didn't know that.

[Socratoad]

Ya, some people like rap, but I'll be damned if I can comprehend why.

Excuse you, Mr. :toad:man. There have been several rather detailed posts explaining exactly some people like some rap. Are you suggesting our posts were incomprehensible to you or are you just trying to get lisa to poke you some more?

Actually Liv, I'm confessing to having a rather autistic-like inability to appreciate rap no matter how articulate might be the defence of it by others.

Ya know kinda like my inability to enjoy a big mac no matter how convincing the commercials.

But shhhh .... don't tell anyone. I'm just having a hell of a lot of fun :wave:

But I am affeared that friend Lisa is agonna rip my worthless head off :crazy2:

[Roland98]

I like some rap and hip hop. A lot of it makes my ears bleed. But I feel your pain when people say "it all sucks." I used to think that way too; my little brother started listening to it when I was in college, and I'd just roll my eyes at him for the longest time. Now I can tolerate a lot of it, and even like a bit.

I like some country too. I've said before that I am absolutely in love with Tim McGraw, although his newest release kinda sucks. I like a lot of older country too; John Denver, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson (c'mon, how can people say all Johnny Cash and Wilie Nelson songs suck?), some Waylon Jennings, and I can't think of his damn name now (Dwight Yoakam!), and some newer folks (like the Dixie Chicks, godfry. :) ) And bluegrass/folk too, vm. (You should listen to Glen Phillips' album he did with Nickel Creek). I realize that I know too little about all the music that's out there to say any particular genre sucks in its entirety. I can even enjoy some pop songs every now and then (when the airwaves aren't being contaminated by Britney Spears, that is).

And while it may seem like the country part is a hijacking of a thread about rap, I hope you all realize that a recent Nelly song features Tim McGraw. So there. :nyahnyah:

[Socratoad]

Any more fan bases you wish me to attack? :madrant:
Metalheads.

Oh Holy Mother of the Sacred Church of the Heartbreak of Psoriasis. Dave Dave does your cruelty know no bounds ........ METALHEADS :eek:

Words fail me. My neighbour's kid has spawned one of those bands. The pain is far too excruciating for me to be able to comment further at this time

[lisarea]

Tom Waits is country? Jesus, I didn't know that.

How is he NOT, really, unless the fact that people who say they don't like country do like him is a valid criterion? He covered Big Joe and Phantom 309. How are songs like Warm Beer and Cold Women and Better off without a Wife not country songs? Some of his albums are more country than others, but I'd say most of Nighthawks at the Diner, and probably 2/3s of The Mule Variations fall handily into the category. What would you call Fillipino Box Spring Hog? That kind of hillbilly stuff is about as country as country gets, IMO.

Part of my point being that there is I often don't see how we draw the line between genres sometimes.

Howcome every black country singer except Charlie Pride is called a bluesman?

I'll tell you why: HATS.

I reject the hat criterion.

[Farren]

Tom Waits is country? Jesus, I didn't know that.

How is he NOT, really, unless the fact that people who say they don't like country do like him is a valid criterion? He covered Big Joe and Phantom 309. How are songs like Warm Beer and Cold Women and Better off without a Wife not country songs? Some of his albums are more country than others, but I'd say most of Nighthawks at the Diner, and probably 2/3s of The Mule Variations fall handily into the category. What would you call Fillipino Box Spring Hog? That kind of hillbilly stuff is about as country as country gets, IMO.


I don't even know the names of his songs. I don't own any Waits' CD's. I've just had some of his stuff played to me and have a hard time thinking of someone yelling "Came home from the war with a party in my head and a great idea for a fireworks display" through a megaphone into a microphone as country.

I'll accept your authority on that and the hats thing because I'm afraid of being shouted at by cool people in public.

[viscousmemories]

Tom Waits is a God of the Blues. Blues. End of story. Unless you wanna start calling Aerosmith a Rap group 'cause of their Walk This Way effort with Run-DMC. :P

[godfry n. glad]

Tom Waits is a God of the Blues. Blues. End of story. Unless you wanna start calling Aerosmith a Rap group 'cause of their Walk This Way effort with Run-DMC. :P

Thank you, vm.

I had never seen that claim that Waits was "country"...

godfry

(...and you think this thread is more intelligent than the "Cheney daughter" thread?)

[xorbie]

I rhyme for cats up in the harbor lights
Prayin they don't starve tonight
And stay positive in the face of a harder life
My chorus light the torch for those on whom the sun set
Verses meant to speak for the voiceless
So let us never be dismayed or afraid
The ground we're walkin on is stained
With the blood of those before us who came
Soldiers in this freedom movement are too numerous to name
Cause the human soul yearns to be free, it's all the same
I rhyme for runaways prayin that they see another day
You gotta make it through the winter to feel some summer days
It's for my natives, it's history in the way their hair is braided
Elephants never forget, that's how they say it
Tell my man [Name] in prison keep grinnin because he's innocent
And tell him that the tests we get are heaven-sent
Listen, I rap for the ones that Johnny Cash wore, the black, for
Black and white women that were turned to crackhores
And I empty everything in the bank to give for it
I empty all the days of my life to live for it
And I empty all the blood in my veins to fight for it
So I empty all the ink in this pen to write for it


I hate when it rains, cause in puddles I encounter this guy
Unable to give a rebuttal but swift as the pain flood his eyes
wonderin why he's a gift with no purpose
A priceless one-of-a-kind piece that's worthless
Grounded with no surface
And when he shows one, it's a facade
Cause inside he fights feelings that he was mistake by God
I see his confusion and self-deception
Questions of relevance and intelligence
He holds an illusion of self-acceptance
that he shows to those outside lookin in
He's outside lookin in to his own life; lookin for strength
to carry on as a pawn in this chess game of existance
In his mind he wants to go on to the dawn
and leave the stress that came with existance
Hopin in death he'll find life
Cause as he lives, he roams the dark, tryin to find light
He's made his heart so hard, he doesn't even cry anymore
Cause he's confronted sorrow frequently
His heart's been broken frequently
It's like he's lost some part of him and just haven't found it yet
So in his search, he's left with nothin but questions and regret
All he wants to know is how one day, he's content
and the next day he's cryin
cause his life isn't what he thought life meant
He just wants to be happy, with his love and all
But too often I get messages through telepathic calls
He's askin me through a puddle what more must he endure to continue
But for some reason he knows he most endure to continue

To be an angel, you gotta earn your wings
To control your own, you gotta burn your strings
To hit blackjack, you gotta turn a king
But to live forever, all you gotta do is learn to sing
I get a pleasure that's inevitably immeasurable
And I won't let it be rejected by no man
Why does it have to be so damn difficult
To live in the frame of a game that will slit your throat?
But I've dug in the mud in search of the drum
Dove soul first to bathe nude in its abyss
Stayed true to the music, now my favorite thing to do is
Close my eyes and forget that I even exist
I hold this fistful of degenerate ideas
For every genius that was murdered in the name of Jesus
Still deaf to the bells that claimed to free us
But I pay homage to my melody ‘cause she's the sweetest
The core of our spirit is naked
The form of its lyrics are sacred
Blanketed by the original sound of the inner vibrations
I'm floating on the soft clouds of positive creation
See, I can look at a painting and admire the colors
Or appreciate any type of art that I discover
But what I dig's invisible
It's my teacher and I'm its student
I tell ya
Ain't nothing quite as beautiful as Music

I guess the point is, I can understand people who don't like Ludacris, or even Tupac, Snoop Dog and the like. But I think the point isn't that I'm trying to defend rap, but more that I believe there is truly something there to be enjoyed, that most people just don't want to expend the effort to find.

[Socratoad]

OK guys, seeing that the thread is straying ever so far from rap (at the moment) let me throw another runkymensch in here. What do you call this type of singer: Phil Ochs, Arlo Guthrie, Stan Rogers, Tracy Chapman, Eric Bogle. Are these folk singers, protest singers, especially in the case of Phil Ochs or .......

I have always been hooked on the type of music these people and others of this genre sing.

I just put one female singer down here because there are just so many women in this field I admire, such as Joni Mitchell.

If you jump to the conclusion that I just might be a sentiment slob then you are right on the money.

[Socratoad]

Xorbie who wrote those two songs you just posted? They are beautiful. If they are rap songs then they certainly are not even close to the ones I've been hearing this neck of the woods.

[beyelzu]

ALL agree that country music emanates from the churning bowels of Satan.
Nope, not me.

Dixie Chicks
Merle Haggard
Johnny Cash
Neko Case
Steve Earl (only sort of country)



Hanks Sr. and III, because it skips a generation
Patsy Cline
16 Horsepower, for large enough values of 'country'
Tom Waits, " " " " " "
Roscoe Holcomb, " " " " " "
...which brings us to the uncomfortable limbo where white man country fades seamlessly into Memphis blues and we attempt to articulate the difference between Roscoe Holcomb and Lightnin' Hopkins, which seriously raises the disturbing possibility that some sort of rip in the space-time continuum caused the same man to be born twice within a single universe, once black and once white, and we are consequently able to witness how this accident of fate informs their musical development, and also how it makes that Gourds' cover of Snoop Dogg's Gin and Juice make a hell of a lot more sense than it may have otherwise...

And I would like to take this opportunity to state publically that I only listen to Slim Whitman in a hip and postmodern kind of way, though. You know, like because I'm COOL, and not that stupid obvious way that I might were I not, you know, COOL and stuff.


you listen to 16 horsepower, fuck I thought only me and the friend that burned their cd fo rme had ever even heard of them


ps, your post did not include further adoration of the man in black especially the american recordings. why?

[lisarea]

Blues?

You mean blues, as in the style of music in which the first line is either repeated or slightly variated, then followed by a rhyming line?


I asked for some collards, my woman brought me turnip greens
Yeah, I asked that woman for collards, but I got me turnip greens
Have you ever seen a woman be so low down dirty mean?


(Actually, I recognize the fluidity of the form. I'm being an asshole just because it's my job.)

But really. Apologize THIS:


warm beer and cold women, I just don't fit in
every joint I stumbled into tonight
that's just how it's been
all these double knit strangers with
gin and vermouth and recycled stories
in the naugahyde booths

with the platinum blondes
and tobacco brunettes
I'll be drinkin' to forget you
lite another cigarette
and the band's playin' something
by Tammy Wynette
and the drinks are on me tonight

all my conversations I'll just be
talkin' about you baby
borin' some sailor as I try to get through
I just want him to listen
that's all you have to do
he said I'm better off without you
till I showed him my tattoo

now the moon's rising
ain't got no time to lose
time to get down to drinking
tell the band to play the blues
drink's are on me, I'll buy another round
at the last ditch attempt saloon

warm beer and cold women, I just don't fit in
every joint I stumbled into tonight
that's just how it's been
all these double knit strangers with
gin and vermouth and recycled stories
in the naugahyde booths

with the platinum blondes
and tobacco brunettes
I'll be drinking to forget you
lite another cigarette
and the band's playing somethin'
by Johnnie Barnett
and the drinks are on me tonight

I can probably photoshop a cowboy hat on him if necessary, too.

[Farren]

Heres some urban poetry (recited over a slowly expanding musical background in a style that is rhythmic and catchy but not quite rap) from John Cooper Clarke. Depressing subject matter but very cool listening:

Beasley Street
Far from crazy pavements -
the taste of silver spoons
A clinical arrangement
on a dirty afternoon
Where the fecal germs of Mr Freud
are rendered obsolete
The legal term is null and void
In the case of Beasley Street

In the cheap seats where murder breeds
Somebody is out of breath
Sleep is a luxury they don't need
- a sneak preview of death
Belladonna is your flower
Manslaughter your meat
Spend a year in a couple of hours
On the edge of Beasley Street

Where the action isn't
That's where it is
State your position
Vacancies exist
In an X-certificate exercise
Ex-servicemen excrete
Keith Joseph smiles and a baby dies
In a box on Beasley Street

From the boarding houses and the bedsits
Full of accidents and fleas
Somebody gets it
Where the missing persons freeze
Wearing dead men's overcoats
You can't see their feet
A riff joint shuts - opens up
Right down on Beasley Street

Cars collide, colours clash
disaster movie stuff
For a man with a Fu Manchu moustache
Revenge is not enough
There's a dead canary on a swivel seat
There's a rainbow in the road
Meanwhile on Beasley Street
Silence is the code

Hot beneath the collar
an inspector calls
Where the perishing stink of squalor
impregnates the walls
the rats have all got rickets
they spit through broken teeth
The name of the game is not cricket
Caught out on Beasley Street

The hipster and his hired hat
Drive a borrowed car
Yellow socks and a pink cravat
Nothing La-di-dah
OAP, mother to be
Watch the three-piece suite
When shit-stoppered drains
and crocodile skis
are seen on Beasley Street

The kingdom of the blind
a one-eyed man is king
Beauty problems are redefined
the doorbells do not ring
A lightbulb bursts like a blister
the only form of heat
here a fellow sells his sister
down the river on Beasley Street

The boys are on the wagon
The girls are on the shelf
Their common problem is
that they're not someone else
The dirt blows out
The dust blows in
You can't keep it neat
It's a fully furnished dustbin,
Sixteen Beasley Street

Vince the ageing savage
Betrays no kind of life
but the smell of yesterday's cabbage
and the ghost of last year's wife
through a constant haze
of deodorant sprays
he says retreat
Alsations dog the dirty days
down the middle of Beasley Street

People turn to poison
Quick as lager turns to piss
Sweethearts are physically sick
every time they kiss.
It's a sociologist's paradise
each day repeats
On easy, cheesy, greasy, queasy
beastly Beasley Street

Eyes dead as vicious fish
Look around for laughs
If I could have just one wish
I would be a photograph
on a permanent Monday morning
Get lost or fall asleep
When the yellow cats are yawning
Around the back of Beasley Street

[xorbie]

Xorbie who wrote those two songs you just posted? They are beautiful. If they are rap songs then they certainly are not even close to the ones I've been hearing this neck of the woods.

Three songs ;)

And the name of each respective artist is in the quote box, but they are by:

Brother Ali, Illogic and Eyedea, respectively. All, iirc, are part of rhymesayers, situated in Minnesota.

[Socratoad]

Xorbie who wrote those two songs you just posted? They are beautiful. If they are rap songs then they certainly are not even close to the ones I've been hearing this neck of the woods.

Three songs ;)

And the name of each respective artist is in the quote box, but they are by:

Brother Ali, Illogic and Eyedea, respectively. All, iirc, are part of rhymesayers, situated in Minnesota.

Thanks, I'm an old man and so I do'nt get out very much anymore.

I guess I better quit commenting about rap because it has become obvious, even to me, that I do'nt know what the hell I'm talking about.

Cheers :wave:

[wade-w]

If the band can't get down and jam for at least an hour or two, I'm probably not interested. There are a few exceptions to that, but they are few and far between, and even those can still jam. Quality of musicianship is by far the most important criteria I have in judging a band. And I have very high standards.

As far as I can tell, Rap is all about the lyrics, set to a mind-numbingly repetitive beat. Sure, there might be exceptions that actually attempt to play some sort of very basic music along with it, but they still emphasis the lyrical content over the music. Is there even one example of a Rap song were they shut the fuck up and let the band go for it?

I can see how clever rhymes and a particular turn of phrase can appeal. But musically it's just not what I look for in an artist.

[xorbie]

If the band can't get down and jam for at least an hour or two, I'm probably not interested. There are a few exceptions to that, but they are few and far between, and even those can still jam. Quality of musicianship is by far the most important criteria I have in judging a band. And I have very high standards.

As far as I can tell, Rap is all about the lyrics, set to a mind-numbingly repetitive beat. Sure, there might be exceptions that actually attempt to play some sort of very basic music along with it, but they still emphasis the lyrical content over the music. Is there even one example of a Rap song were they shut the fuck up and let the band go for it?

I can see how clever rhymes and a particular turn of phrase can appeal. But musically it's just not what I look for in an artist.

Well, you can always get the instrumentals ;)

Actually, I think one of the most important things about rap is the emphasis of the voice as a musical instrument itself. To me, anyway. It's an acquired taste in some respects, but it certianly isn't just talking real fast.

The beats tend to be repetitive, yes, but even so they can be really good at making you move, far better (again, IMO) than most rock.

[viscousmemories]

Okay lisa, here's your proof positive that Tom Waits is far too "urban drunk" to be a cowboy:

(I just transcribed this from a Real Audio recording (http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/profiles/waitstom.shtml) at the BBC, and I freely admit I took the liberty of removing many uh's and ah's.)

British Host: Is it possible for you to say Tom what tradition of rock/pop music you see yourself being a part of?

Tom Waits (sounding very drunk): Uhh... you mean what category I fall under? Uhh... I dunno I've never fallen under a category. I fell underneath a car once and uh... I haven't been the same since. I was at Penn Station on 31st Street and 8th Avenue in New York City and ah, there's a guy at the information booth I said I wanna take a train to Philedelphia he says don't take a train let the train take you. Let the train take you. He said I got a friend who used to take trains and now he's got back trouble all the time. So I really... it's hard for me to say uh, uh what category I fall under uh 'cause uh I'm kind of a bit of a curator or a uh kind of a uh racconteur or a collector of nocturnal emissions and improvisational adventures into the bowels of the metropolitan region and I do inebriational travelogue I'm a pedestrian piano player and I uh, I get by aright. I work for $1.65 an hour plus tips, you pay for the room and I uh, don't do too shabby.

[godfry n. glad]

In other words, Waits doesn't like to be pigeon-holed into somebody else's arbitrary categories.

I can understand that... He really doesn't fit comfortably into the "blues" category, either.

godfry

[wade-w]

Actually, I think one of the most important things about rap is the emphasis of the voice as a musical instrument itself. To me, anyway. It's an acquired taste in some respects, but it certianly isn't just talking real fast.


Using the voice as a musical instrument is not at all new, and over emphasizing the voice is not necessarily a good thing, imo. Ever hear a Gregorian Chant? A large part of the appeal of Crosby Stills & Nash, to cite just one example from rock, was their three part harmony (and later four part harmony after they added Neil Young). Listen to Suite: Judy Blue Eyes or Wooden Ships sometime. That's what using the voice as a musical instrument is. As far as I can tell, the voiceovers in Rap simply follow the beat with little or no variation; it's not exactly being utilized in as versatile a manner as I expect from a musical instrument.

[godfry n. glad]

Actually, I think one of the most important things about rap is the emphasis of the voice as a musical instrument itself. To me, anyway. It's an acquired taste in some respects, but it certianly isn't just talking real fast.


Using the voice as a musical instrument is not at all new, and over emphasizing the voice is not necessarily a good thing, imo. Ever hear a Gregorian Chant? A large part of the appeal of Crosby Stills & Nash, to cite just one example from rock, was their three part harmony (and later four part harmony after they added Neil Young). Listen to Suite: Judy Blue Eyes or Wooden Ships sometime. That's what using the voice as a musical instrument is. As far as I can tell, the voiceovers in Rap simply follow the beat with little or no variation; it's not exactly being utilized in as versatile a manner as I expect from a musical instrument.

Indeed... Acappella tunes have been some of the most beautiful music I've ever heard.

And jazz has it's own sub-genre dedicated to the voice as instrument, it's called "scat". No shit.

godfry

[lisarea]

In other words, Waits doesn't like to be pigeon-holed into somebody else's arbitrary categories.

I can understand that... He really doesn't fit comfortably into the "blues" category, either.

It kind of addresses my point, really, which I have not sufficiently addressed directly.

I don't understand the point of genres, or of discounting a whole, rich body of music based on some often arbitrary classification. No, I don't think Tom Waits is a COWBOY in the mold of the jingoistic hat-wearing 'country musicians.' That's, like, some weird subgenre that grew from the traditions of Smiley Burnett and the like, probably. IMO, country music, and this being why I added the 'broad enough values' disclaimer, encompasses more than that, and even goes beyond the strict Nashville sound. But he's a hell of a lot more reminiscent of Hank Williams than someone like one of those guys that I don't know their names--I think Brad Paisley or something like that is a pretty bad one.

Would Johnny Cash even be considered a country musician if he didn't marry June Carter and wear those hats? Maybe, I guess. But how accurate is any classification, anyway, that lumps him in with that guy who did that "Iraq and I Roll" song, or those bizarrely self-referential songs that make a point to mention various redneck iconography like pick up trucks and barbeques in every verse, and doesn't recognize his influence on, say, The Cramps? I'm not even talking about the NIN cover and stuff, but songs like Delia.

And what value is it, really, to classify musicians like that? I guess it's worthwhile if you're a programming director trying to appeal to the broadest target audience possible or one of those people who manufactures boy bands or something, but shit, some of that stuff is just so damned random. Again, I fall back to the country/bluegrass/folk/blues designations. Some of that stuff really overlaps in places, and it seems the final designations are determined according to race and the clothing style. What is the difference between a white guy with a twelve-string singing about moonshining, and a black guy with a twelve-string singing about moonshining? That's basically Appalachian folk vs. Memphis blues in a nutshell.

So, no. Tom Waits is not a singing cowboy. Neither is Johnny Cash, though. And they both recorded some good blues like songs and some good country like songs, and a whole lot of stuff that defies easy classification.

[JoeP]

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, The Message. Was that rap? Since then, can't think of a single rap song or artist I like. Can stand the black eyed peas, perhaps.

[viscousmemories]

So, no. Tom Waits is not a singing cowboy. Neither is Johnny Cash, though. And they both recorded some good blues like songs and some good country like songs, and a whole lot of stuff that defies easy classification.
I feel a little guilty about this massive derail, but it's all about the music so this seems like a reasonable tangent to me anyway.

I actually don't disagree with anything you've said, lisa. I've been entirely facetious this whole time because I agree that generalizing about genres is meaningless. When I say I hate Country music I'm talking about something very specific, but I really don't know what it is. I called it twang 'cause that's as close as I can come to describing it. I don't mean twang as in banjo 'cause I like a lot of banjo music. And it's not the lyrics that bother me because frankly the vast majority of music I've heard has lame lyrics. Good poets are a rare breed.

But there's some quality in much of what I call "Country" music that drives me to jam an icepick in my ear to stop hearing it, and I honestly can't even say what exactly that quality is. I think it's a certain tempo or something. I really don't know. All I know is that once in awhile I'll be somewhere (at a restaurant or just flipping through channels on the TV or something) and suddenly become aware of some music that just grates on my nerves. And I'm really not even sure what it is.

Sadly I think it may just be a cultural bias against the southern accent. :(

[lisarea]

I actually don't disagree with anything you've said, lisa. I've been entirely facetious this whole time because I agree that generalizing about genres is meaningless. When I say I hate Country music I'm talking about something very specific, but I really don't know what it is. I called it twang 'cause that's as close as I can come to describing it. I don't mean twang as in banjo 'cause I like a lot of banjo music. And it's not the lyrics that bother me because frankly the vast majority of music I've heard has lame lyrics. Good poets are a rare breed.

I know what you're saying, and I know you're not being completely serious. Nor am I. I'm just enjoying the hell out of having some fake flamewar about something that's not politics. Don't stop. Please.

(I don't even really think people are bad for not liking rap, but don't tell anyone I said that, OK?)


But there's some quality in much of what I call "Country" music that drives me to jam an icepick in my ear to stop hearing it, and I honestly can't even say what exactly that quality is. I think it's a certain tempo or something. I really don't know. All I know is that once in awhile I'll be somewhere (at a restaurant or just flipping through channels on the TV or something) and suddenly become aware of some music that just grates on my nerves. And I'm really not even sure what it is.

Yeah, there is some kind of official thing about country music, but I'm almost entirely illiterate music-wise, so Scarlatti is in charge of explaining.

OK. So country music has a down-something or a minor something or like that that distinguishes it, and blues has some kind of 12-bar deal that I don't know what it means, reggae is backwards or something. Like that. I guess a convention like that could grate on you. But again...

SCARLATTI! HEY, SCARLATTI!

Or someone else who knows!

What is that musicy thing that distinguishes country from other genres?

Don't say hats. We already know about the hats.


Sadly I think it may just be a cultural bias against the southern accent. :(

HEY. I used to have one of those accents some, but I practiced and I think it's all gone now. I am so going to learn it back and call you!

[Cool Hand]

Heh. It's pretty funny. I was just reading through this thread and it struck me that some of the anti-rap criticisms some of us have leveled sound nearly identical to many of the criticisms some members of the WWII generation made about early rock and roll. Didn't many of them call it "the devil's music" and claim that it was associated with loose morals and depravity and the decline of Western Civilization?

I suppose our individual cultural sensibilities are mostly defined and influenced by our age, geography, socioeconomic status, our peers' tastes, our parents' tastes, and what we are exposed to when we are most impressionable. For me, it was largely defined in the mid to late 70s and early 80s.

Setting that aside, I can understand how persons who are bright, educated, and have had a broad exposure to various forms of art, music, and literature can appreciate the lyrical, poetic, and rhythmic qualities in good rap. On the other hand, as a musician (not professionally) with a decent grasp of basic modern Western music theory, I find most rap I have heard to be deficient in melodic content.

As my guitar teacher says, all modern Western music of the last 500 years consists of three essential components: 1) rhythm; 2) harmony; and 3) melody. I can allow for broad definitions of each so that many non-traditional forms of music can satisfy that definition. I have to admit, however, that to my ears the majority of what is referred to as rap is long on rhythm and short on harmony and melody. I can discern harmonies and even melodies on many rap songs, but by and large, they lack harmonic and melodic structure.

Quite simply, rap is premised mostly on rhythm and rhyme. That doesn't devalue it as an artform, but it does say a lot about whether it is music according to modern Western music theory. Putting poetry to a rhythmic track and tossing in some sampling of others' recordings might be interesting or even enjoyable listening for many persons, but those qualities don't make it music. I enjoy listening to crickets chirp and frogs croak on a summer night, but I recognize that they are not musicians.

That said, I don't mind if anyone else likes rap. That's fine. I don't think it signifies the decline of Western Civilization or portends the end of the world. I wouldn't bet on my ever liking it as a whole, however.

Cool Hand

[wade-w]

What Cool Hand said!

:bow: :bow: :bow:

The point about demonizing early Rock 'N Roll is well taken. Before Rock, it was Jazz that was supposed to be destroying the moral fiber of our nation. This is why I was careful to point out that I was talking about my own preferences, and not condemning other's choices.

[Socratoad]

The Toad is in full sulk. I posted about another genre several post back and it was totally ignored even though I really wished to have an opinion or two on the post. Perhaps I'm just so old that none of you even are able to recognize the names of the singers I mentioned. Really folks at my age I'm beginning to thing that I'm rapidly becoming the type of person that people walk up to and ask, "Did'nt you used to be Toad?" :(

[Dingfod]

I apologize for my earlier generalization, I should've said "Most rap = Noise", at least to me it is. I'll be the first to admit that I actually like some of it and some of the rap/hip-hop videos are entertaining as hell, Snoop Dog for one. I've never been one that is stuck in any particular genre, I have my own peculiar taste in music and that is that. But, that doesn't mean I don't appreciate a well crafted tune in another genre. I said tune because I've got a problem that I've had all my life, I cannot glean lyrics out of most songs, I just can't. I've tried and tried, but I'm not able to separate them from most songs, it's just the way my brain is wired. So, when a particular genre throws in a bunch of unrelated noise, thumping beats that are louder than hell and records being scratched back and forth, it befuddles me to the point of extreme annoyance. I dislike crowds for the same reason. Me appreciating having a conversation in a noisy bar is just as bad as me trying to appreciate rap and hip-hop, I just can't, the extraneous noise detracts from the point, which in rap, is the lyrics.

There. I hope I've stated my reason for disliking most rap more clearly.


We could start a whole thread on country music for the same reason. Heavy metal too.

[wade-w]

The Toad is in full sulk. I posted about another genre several post back and it was totally ignored even though I really wished to have an opinion or two on the post. Perhaps I'm just so old that none of you even are able to recognize the names of the singers I mentioned. Really folks at my age I'm beginning to thing that I'm rapidly becoming the type of person that people walk up to and ask, "Did'nt you used to be Toad?" :(

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am familiar with everyone you mentioned. Especially Arlo Guthrie. Alice's Restaurant, The Motorcycle Song (Significance of the Pickle), Coming Into Los Angeles, and City of New Orleans are particular favorites.

/me sits back to watch and see if this sulking thing works on anyone else.

[livius drusus]

The Toad is in full sulk. I posted about another genre several post back and it was totally ignored even though I really wished to have an opinion or two on the post. Perhaps I'm just so old that none of you even are able to recognize the names of the singers I mentioned. Really folks at my age I'm beginning to thing that I'm rapidly becoming the type of person that people walk up to and ask, "Did'nt you used to be Toad?" :(
Ah, quit yer bitchin', old man. You can't stem the natural flow of a thread just by throwing out a few names and pleading old age. These kids today are too busy gangbanging with the bling and the bitches to know anything about Arlo Guthrie.
:rant2:

Ahem... Pardon my outburst. What I really meant to say was that I would call those singers folk, but since I didn't want to display my palpable ignorance on the subject, I left it for someone else to answer.

/me nods solemnly at wade

[Socratoad]

Oh yeah, never a month goes by without me playing Alice's restaurant. Its a little slice of history that one, and also the full version has got to be one of the longest pieces of all time, excluding classical music that is.

Perhaps sulking does work :chin:

Now, just what genre would you call that type of music?

I really think that the troops going to Iraq should listen to some of Phil Ochs songs before embarking. I think that it might just start another exodus to my country just like it did during Viet Nam days.

[Socratoad]

[
Ah, quit yer bitchin', old man. You can't stem the natural flow of a thread just by throwing out a few names and pleading old age. These kids today are too busy gangbanging with the bling and the bitches to know anything about Arlo Guthrie.
:rant2:

Ahem... Pardon my outburst. What I really meant to say was that I would call those singers folk, but since I didn't want to display my palpable ignorance on the subject, I left it for someone else to answer.

* livius drusus nods solemnly at wade

But but Liv, it worked did it not :D

[viscousmemories]

I didn't recognize any of the names at first, but I really like Alice's Restaurant.

[wade-w]

Toad, here's the chorus from one of my favorite protest songs from that era:


And it's one, two, three, what are we fightin' for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Viet Nam!

Five, Six , Seven Open up the Pearly Gate!
Ain't no time to wonder why,
Yippie! We're all gonna die!


Bonus points to anyone who can name the artist! (Hint: He's not on Toad's list)

[livius drusus]

Oh hell, even I know that's Country Joe, but it's only from documentaries about the period. Great song, though.

Okay, Toad, have you extorted enough commentary yet? A meandering thread is one thing; an intentional derailment backed up by sulking is another thing altogether. :glare:

[Socratoad]

Oh hell, even I know that's Country Joe, but it's only from documentaries about the period. Great song, though.

Okay, Toad, have you extorted enough commentary yet? A meandering thread is one thing; an intentional derailment backed up by sulking is another thing altogether. :glare:

:roflmao: :roflmao: :mememe: :bmini: :bmini: :bmini: :bgirl:

[Roland98]

At the risk of raising liv's ire, I just wanted to say that when I got home today I had a message on my answering machine from Sean "Puff Daddy" "P. Diddy" "Purple Peopleeater" Combs telling me to vote or die. So naturally, I thought of this thread.

Okay, carry on.

[Dingfod]

At the risk of raising liv's ire, I just wanted to say that when I got home today I had a message on my answering machine from Sean "Puff Daddy" "P. Diddy" "Purple Peopleeater" Combs telling me to vote or die. So naturally, I thought of this thread.

Okay, carry on.You better do it, they guys been known to pop a cap or two.

[livius drusus]

My ire? Not at all. I saw Puffy sporting one of those vote or die t-shirts on the Hip Hop Honors. The buttery leather jacket he was wearing in his first segment was way cooler. I love buttery leather. My dad got me a buttery leather jacket in Turkey when I was a kid. It had one of those belts you tie around the waist on account of it being the late 70s and all. So is Disco Folk music? Folks listened to it, after all. How about Rapper's Delight? Chic's Good Times was the base track and I've seen that clip of Dance Fever or whatever with all those roller disco looking people grooving to the Sugarhill Gang.

So. About that rap... :hahaha:

[wade-w]

But but Liv, it worked did it not :D

Must be an age thing. It never works for me.

[Roland98]

My ire? Not at all. I saw Puffy sporting one of those vote or die t-shirts on the Hip Hop Honors. The buttery leather jacket he was wearing in his first segment was way cooler. I love buttery leather. My dad got me a buttery leather jacket in Turkey when I was a kid. It had one of those belts you tie around the waist on account of it being the late 70s and all. So is Disco Folk music? Folks listened to it, after all. How about Rapper's Delight? Chic's Good Times was the base track and I've seen that clip of Dance Fever or whatever with all those roller disco looking people grooving to the Sugarhill Gang.

See, this is why I love you, liv. :LMAO: