Is there a subculture that embraces failure?

[LadyShea]

Dantonac, several pages back you were expressing disbelief that the whole country isn't full of deeply involved and compassionate parent, going so far to assume my suburban California and Colorado upbringing was in "hell holes"...but yet you are expressing shockingly (to me) racist ideas. Does this indicate anything sinister behind your picket fences and PTA?

I am not trying to be a bitch here, but you keep claiming not to be racist, but I wonder if you understand how your statements sound to those in my culturally diverse/less segregated areas?

[dave_a]

Dantonac, several pages back you were expressing disbelief that the whole country isn't full of deeply involved and compassionate parent, going so far to assume my suburban California and Colorado upbringing was in "hell holes"...but yet you are expressing shockingly (to me) racist ideas. Does this indicate anything sinister behind your picket fences and PTA?

I am well aware there are horrible parents out there, but you seemed to be expressing the view (to my understanding anyway) that lousy parents were the norm rather than the exception. In my experience lousy, uninvolved parents do exist, but they are not the norm.

I am not trying to be a bitch here, but you keep claiming not to be racist, but I wonder if you understand how your statements sound to those in my culturally diverse/less segregated areas?

Milwaukee and Wisconsin in general, from what I read, are some of the most voluntarily segregated places in the nation. So I can understand how someone from an area with less racial segregation would have a different set of experiences. The poor areas around here you see very little mixing of races. There is less segregation as you get into mid and upper class neighborhoods. Part of the problem here is that the areas immigrants used to move into when they were poor are now inhabitted by poor blacks. The immigrants would move in, work their way up and move out. The blacks call it home and these days living in the neighborhoods when you aren't black gets you subjected to violence. The poor blacks want to live among each other and nobody else wants to live among them. Hence the voluntary segregation. This doesn't hold true in middle and upper class neighborhoods though because those blacks are not from the same subculture.

I am definitely not racist, but as I stated earlier in this thread I am definitely a culturalist. There are some subcultures that I think are so destructive that I can't help but notice them and feel despair at the hopeless situation.

Where I live inner city blacks represent that subculture most vividly. That's just my experience. The black coworker that I talk about these things with has been a good source of information for me because she isn't from that subculture, so when she says this subculture exists (just as recently Bill Cosby has addressed it) it just confirms for me that what I am seeing is not a racially motivated bias on my part, but an accurate interpretation of what I see, what my mother who was an instructor at a community college assisting folks in getting GEDs saw, what my mother in law who was a social worker and now does similar work within the prison system sees, what my friend who is a teacher in an inner city school sees etc. The crime statistics don't lie either. Where the murders take place is largely confined to the inner city black neighborhoods. Not exclusively of course, but disproportionately.

The one thing everyone I know who has invested themselves in trying to help these people obtain a better life ends up going through is despair and the sense that what they do is pointless. The culture these people come from is so strong an influence that there is just nothing to be done that will make a difference. Most of the kids in the school system I refer to won't graduate, a minority of them have a parent at home, the majority of girls will be unwed mothers in their teens etc. It's damn depressing, but it is what it is.

It is a distinctly black subculture. Whites don't do this nor do asians, hispanics, arabs or any other ethnic group I know of. Sure, individuals from these ethic groups may, but they haven't elevated these negatives into cultural norms.

That may make me sound racist, there is nothing I can do about that. I have been careful to repeatedly mention I am talking about a subculture rather than a race. I am not talking about all blacks or even all poor blacks. I am talking about an identifiable subculture that has as characteristics both being poor and black.

[viscousmemories]

It is a distinctly black subculture. Whites don't do this nor do asians, hispanics, arabs or any other ethnic group I know of. Sure, individuals from these ethic groups may, but they haven't elevated these negatives into cultural norms.

That may make me sound racist, there is nothing I can do about that. I have been careful to repeatedly mention I am talking about a subculture rather than a race. I am not talking about all blacks or even all poor blacks. I am talking about an identifiable subculture that has as characteristics both being poor and black.
I'm not even sure what you're asserting here but it would probably make for an interesting thread of its own. I think that tangent has gotten pretty far afield from this thread topic, but I'd personally be interested in seeing it fleshed out. I admit my knee-jerk reaction is that saying that there is a subculture that glorifies antisocial behaviors and happens to be unique to blacks (if that is what you're saying) is an indefensible position, but honestly I'd like to read and/or participate in such a discussion.

[LadyShea]

I am well aware there are horrible parents out there, but you seemed to be expressing the view (to my understanding anyway) that lousy parents were the norm rather than the exception. In my experience lousy, uninvolved parents do exist, but they are not the norm.

Again, this is the norm from several areas I have lived as well as what I have heard from friends/family elsewhere.

Milwaukee and Wisconsin in general, from what I read, are some of the most voluntarily segregated places in the nation. So I can understand how someone from an area with less racial segregation would have a different set of experiences. The poor areas around here you see very little mixing of races. There is less segregation as you get into mid and upper class neighborhoods. Part of the problem here is that the areas immigrants used to move into when they were poor are now inhabitted by poor blacks. The immigrants would move in, work their way up and move out. The blacks call it home and these days living in the neighborhoods when you aren't black gets you subjected to violence. The poor blacks want to live among each other and nobody else wants to live among them. Hence the voluntary segregation. This doesn't hold true in middle and upper class neighborhoods though because those blacks are not from the same subculture.

I think an argument can be made that this type of segregation is hardly voluntary. How do you know many or most of those living in those neighborhoods have tried to move out and met various obstacles like being denied housing or employment discrimination? I know this is the case in most big cities, like LA.

I am definitely not racist, but as I stated earlier in this thread I am definitely a culturalist. There are some subcultures that I think are so destructive that I can't help but notice them and feel despair at the hopeless situation.

Yes, I agree. Here in the West we have criminal subculturals, many highly organized, representing many races and ethnicities.

I also despair at the poverty trap many find themselves in that gets them discriminated against, labeled and stereotyped.

Where I live inner city blacks represent that subculture most vividly. That's just my experience. The black coworker that I talk about these things with has been a good source of information for me because she isn't from that subculture, so when she says this subculture exists (just as recently Bill Cosby has addressed it) it just confirms for me that what I am seeing is not a racially motivated bias on my part, but an accurate interpretation of what I see, what my mother who was an instructor at a community college assisting folks in getting GEDs saw, what my mother in law who was a social worker and now does similar work within the prison system sees, what my friend who is a teacher in an inner city school sees etc.

The subculture is actually a socio-economic class, then, in my opinion, not some chosen lifestyle

The crime statistics don't lie either. Where the murders take place is largely confined to the inner city black neighborhoods. Not exclusively of course, but disproportionately.

Crime statistics can lie. Especially when you factor in racial bias with regards to investigation, arrest and conviction as well as cover ups and pay offs in the more afflluent segments.

The one thing everyone I know who has invested themselves in trying to help these people obtain a better life ends up going through is despair and the sense that what they do is pointless. The culture these people come from is so strong an influence that there is just nothing to be done that will make a difference. Most of the kids in the school system I refer to won't graduate, a minority of them have a parent at home, the majority of girls will be unwed mothers in their teens etc. It's damn depressing, but it is what it is.

I have no response to this, but it makes me very uncomfortable

It is a distinctly black subculture. Whites don't do this nor do asians, hispanics, arabs or any other ethnic group I know of. Sure, individuals from these ethic groups may, but they haven't elevated these negatives into cultural norms.

Non-Blacks don't do WHAT exactly? Get pregant young? Commit crime? Please detail the traits you see in this subculture, because I am really not following you here.

That may make me sound racist, there is nothing I can do about that. I have been careful to repeatedly mention I am talking about a subculture rather than a race. I am not talking about all blacks or even all poor blacks. I am talking about an identifiable subculture that has as characteristics both being poor and black.

What other characteristics differentiate them from others? I am still not following you.

[LadyShea]

VM, I am happy with a split for this issue.

[dave_a]

I'm not even sure what you're asserting here but it would probably make for an interesting thread of its own. I think that tangent has gotten pretty far afield from this thread topic, but I'd personally be interested in seeing it fleshed out. I admit my knee-jerk reaction is that saying that there is a subculture that glorifies antisocial behaviors and happens to be unique to blacks (if that is what you're saying) is an indefensible position, but honestly I'd like to read and/or participate in such a discussion.

Feel free to split it out into it's own thread Mr. Admin :D

Is there an identifiable subculture that embraces (your word was glorifies) destructive (your word was anti social) behavior and is also unique to blacks is a good question and I would be happy to participate.

Ultimately I don't know how fruitful it would be though, particularly if accusations of racism become the knee jerk reactions.

Earlier I showed an article on a study where black teen females answered a question regarding whether they wanted to be pregnant. A significant number answered in the affirmative and within 6 months they were.

I would say this is a destructive social attitude as teen unwed mothers seriously create almost impossible barriers to economic independence for themselves. Looking at the 'illegitimate' birth rates among ethnic groups it is higher for blacks than for other ethnic groups so I doubt the study results present a truth only applicable to a particular city.

Another link I posted was to a Standford university student's research paper. As Liv pointed out there is no way to know what grade the student got, but her paper touched on social attitudes among whites, latinos and blacks and found that the social structure among blacks is more supportive of single, teen motherhood than others. From my own interactions with inner city people as well as friend and family experiences I would say this is definitely true. Of course it's all ancedotal and nobody is going to accept that as evidence of anything.

I would say this (the attitude toward teen, unwed motherhood)is a destructive cultural attitude as the lack of stigma for those teens choosing to have babies makes it more acceptable and therefore it can be expected to be more common. And, statistically there is no arguing it is more common among african americans than any other ethnic group.

Then we can take the comments of African Americans like Walter Williams and Bill Cosby among others where they discuss these social dynamics among members of their own race.

I am finding it interesting that so far you, Liv and LadyShea find the suggestion that there is a subculture among African Americans that engages in destructive behavior as being unlikely.

I am not trying to be rude in even the most minor way in saying this, but I honestly can't fathom how you can't see it. Not only have I seen it my entire life, but it's not like it hasn't been said before by blacks with national prominence. If it wasn't being said by national figures I would figure that SE Wisconsin is unique in this regard and so my comments reflected a regional bias.

How would you explain the higher than any other ethnic group's rate of school drop out, disproportionate representation in prisons, teen mothers etc?

Clearly the culture of this subculture embraces it or else it wouldn't/couldn't be the norm, could it?

[LadyShea]

I think there are many subcultures in the US. So far, the characteristics you have listed is pregnancy rates and criminal behavior, both of which I believe can be explained partially as stemming from poverty and discrimination. I don't think "embrace" is the correct term.

Also, all the stats I can find state that non hispanic whites have the highest teen pregnancy and abortion rates.

[viscousmemories]

This thread was born of a split from this one (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=787).

[dave_a]

I am well aware there are horrible parents out there, but you seemed to be expressing the view (to my understanding anyway) that lousy parents were the norm rather than the exception. In my experience lousy, uninvolved parents do exist, but they are not the norm.

Again, this is the norm from several areas I have lived as well as what I have heard from friends/family elsewhere.

Well OK. since i have been feeling beat up on for stating honestly what my experience based upon where I live has been I am feeling pretty awful about saying you must have lived in a hell hole earlier. Your experience is foreign to me as mine is to you. I find it hard to believe we could live in the same country and have such radically different experiences on something as basic as parenting, but I have to accept that it is so.


I think an argument can be made that this type of segregation is hardly voluntary. How do you know many or most of those living in those neighborhoods have tried to move out and met various obstacles like being denied housing or employment discrimination? I know this is the case in most big cities, like LA.

I can't say there isn't discrimination, I am sure there is quite a bit of it. I doubt it is purely racially motivated though, at least to any significant degree. I can't speak for LA, of course. Where I live the discrimation is more along the lines of credit reports and felony convictions.


Where I live inner city blacks represent that subculture most vividly. That's just my experience. The black coworker that I talk about these things with has been a good source of information for me because she isn't from that subculture, so when she says this subculture exists (just as recently Bill Cosby has addressed it) it just confirms for me that what I am seeing is not a racially motivated bias on my part, but an accurate interpretation of what I see, what my mother who was an instructor at a community college assisting folks in getting GEDs saw, what my mother in law who was a social worker and now does similar work within the prison system sees, what my friend who is a teacher in an inner city school sees etc.

The subculture is actually a socio-economic class, then, in my opinion, not some chosen lifestyle

Well the subculture I speak of certainly has an economic component in that they are almost universally dirt poor. There is also a social element. However it is a distinctly african american subculture, it is not found among latinos, white or asians or any other group as an identifiable subculture that I know of. So yes, it is a socio-economic class, but it doesn't trancsend racial lines, it is contained within the african american race.

It is a distinctly black subculture. Whites don't do this nor do asians, hispanics, arabs or any other ethnic group I know of. Sure, individuals from these ethic groups may, but they haven't elevated these negatives into cultural norms.

Non-Blacks don't do WHAT exactly? Get pregant young? Commit crime? Please detail the traits you see in this subculture, because I am really not following you here.

It is not that this subculture does any particular thing that is unique, it is the reaction of this subculture to these things. Any sexually active teen can get pregant of course. It is within this african american subculture I am speaking of where it is seen as normal and even expected to have a child before marriage or even finishing high school. This is what I find unique.

Black teens from this subculture become single mothers more frequently that other races. This doesn't mean they have sex more often or earlier(if they do I wouldn't know about it). It means they embrace the economic suicide of teen motherhood rather than view it as a negative.

There are other things we could discuss, but this converstation was started with the statement that 13 year old black girls get pregnant because they think it is cool. I didn't make that statement, but I did comment that in my experience there is a subculture among african amercians that fits this idea pretty well.

This is what I would like to stay focused on if this thread has any hope of not getting derailed into irrelevance. The teen motherhood rate among african americans and the social reasons for it.

My position based upon what I have experienced/read is that it is as high as it is due to this subculture accepting it as normal and OK and in some cases even expected. Other races lack this subculture. Individuals may have this attitude, but I have never seen neighborhoods full of people with this attitude elsewhere.

[LadyShea]

So, we are limiting the split thread to one thing, that there exists a black subculture that encourages single teen motherhood? Did I get that correctly?

For someone who is dirt poor, and sees no prospects of a good job, having a child gets them more welfare benefits and access to a larger number of programs. It's not economic suicide to them, it's survival. The fact that the poor are much more likely to give birth than to have an abortion supports my theory

Teens who give birth are much more likely to come from poor or low-income families (83%) than are teens who have abortions (61%) or teens in general (38%).31 http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_teen_sex.html#tp


Oh, and Hispanics have the highest teenage birth rates (not pregnancy or abortion, birth rates. I believe this is the subject you want to stick to) according to the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_10.pdf) , so your stating that whatever this is doesn't exist among hispanics is simply wrong

[dave_a]

So, we are limiting the split thread to one thing, that there exists a black subculture that encourages single teen motherhood? Did I get that correctly?

Yes, that is my desire anyway.

For someone who is dirt poor, and sees no prospects of a good job, having a child gets them more welfare benefits and access to a larger number of programs. It's not economic suicide to them, it's survival.

True, but it goes beyond that. First, with welfare reform I don't think it is true that having kids makes one more money anymore. I am not an expert on welfare reform so I may be wrong.

Anyway, here is some research from the Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?NavMenuID=24&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=8379) on family living arrangements, race and poverty. Note the striking difference between white, latino and african americans living in poverty as it concerns single mothers.

The reasearch even finds that "This general characterization of the living arrangements of poor children has one important caveat. Black children are much less likely than nonblack children to live with both of their natural parents because so few of their parents marry or cohabit. Instead, fragile-visiting families are a uniquely important arrangement by which poor black children have frequent contact with both of their parents. Thus, as we move from younger to older nonblack children, father involvement diminishes because the parents of older nonblack children are more likely to be divorced or separated, which leads to single parenting and divorced-visiting arrangements. As we move from younger to older black children, however, father involvement diminishes because the parents of older black children are much less likely than the parents of young black children to maintain their visiting arrangements."

In other words, there is a clearly identifiable racial component limitted to african americans rather than all poor.

[LadyShea]

From the study you mentioned in the other thread

Researchers didn't look at why the girls wanted to get pregnant,

Davies suspects that inner city girls, most of whom are poor, see pregnancy as a way to avoid going to work in low-paying, dead-end jobs.

"I think it's kind of appealing for girls who don't see a lot of positive future options," she said. Young, black women need more opportunities, Davies said.


I wasn't just talking straight welfare checks. Welfare is actually a whole slew of State and Federal programs, many or most of which are available to women and children ONLY, such as WIC and some medical programs, and single mothers with children are given priority for housing and food stamps. It is not in their best interest to marry or cohabitate if they are having children to avoid dead end jobs, etc.

From your Urban Studies link

These bills are especially likely to neglect the needs of black children because they do not address a fundamental barrier to father's involvement: joblessness. Male employment increases the family formation plans and outcomes—from visiting to marriage—in fragile families (Huang and Mincy 2002; Mincy and Huang 2001). Even if they remain unmarried, employed fathers are more likely than unemployed fathers to visit and provide financial support for their children (Mincy, Curtis, and Huang 2002). During the 1990s the employment rates of young less-educated black men fell, while those of young less-educated black women rose (Holzer and Offner 2001). Neither bill would allow states to support employment services to reduce male joblessness. In addition, fragile-visiting families are the arrangement through which substantial numbers of black children of all ages, and some older nonblack children, maintain contact with their biological fathers. If responsible fatherhood programs lead unwed fathers to establish paternity for their children and provide some material support, they may aid more children than efforts to promote marriage will.

So we see that the biggest problem is still poverty leading to this disparity

[dave_a]

Oh, and Hispanics have the highest teenage birth rates (not pregnancy or abortion, birth rates. I believe this is the subject you want to stick to) according to the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_10.pdf) , so your stating that whatever this is doesn't exist among hispanics is simply wrong

I am not seeing that.

What the CDC says is that the unmarried birth rate among hispanics and blacks is roughly equal for teenagers, its higher for hispanics as they get older. This rough equality in percentages is after the last decade of a halving of the rate for african amercians and a fairly stable rate among latinos. I didn't see any data where the income of the mothers was factored in along with race. A middle/upper class woman being a single mother isn't quite the death blow it is for a poor girl.

I certainly find news that the teen unwed birth rate is dropping encouraging though.

And yes, this is the topic I wish to stick to except that I am more concerned with the cultural norms for this black subculture than numbers of births in isolation. Please read the Urban Institute paper I linked to and we can discuss.

[dave_a]

So we see that the biggest problem is still poverty leading to this disparity

Yes, I believe I have stated several times that this subculture is not represented in the middle and upper class. It is a subculture that is a part of the lower income african americans.

I just don't see any ethic group that embraces teen, unwed preganacy as a norm other than this black subculture.

There are plenty of poor whites and hispanics, yet the living arrangements identified in the Urban Institute paper saw what they called "striking" differences between black and other ethnic groups in the frequency in which there was no paternal involvement.

So economics alone can't explain it.

[LadyShea]

I am not seeing that.
What the CDC says is that the unmarried birth rate among hispanics and blacks is roughly equal for teenagers, its higher for hispanics as they get older.

Chart on page 5 shows Hispanics with the highest teen birth rate. Not equal

The original discussion was about some kind of culture of acceptance ONLY found among some blacks with regard to getting pregnant as teens. You stated this was not a phenomena found among Latinos. Since Hispanics have the highest teen birth rate, then your argument fails. Nothing was said about married women for that point

Am I missing something?

And yes, this is the topic I wish to stick to except that I am more concerned with the cultural norms for this black subculture than numbers of births in isolation. Please read the Urban Institute paper I linked to and we can discuss.

I did read it, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make, still.

[dave_a]

I am not seeing that.
What the CDC says is that the unmarried birth rate among hispanics and blacks is roughly equal for teenagers, its higher for hispanics as they get older.

Chart on page 5 shows Hispanics with the highest teen birth rate. Not equal


Ok, the chart you are refering to breaks things down by year, race and age group, not by income. The not showing income was my primary objection and the Urban Institute addresses race and income which I consider more relevant since I have said all along the subculture I am referencing is from the low income class. Even so the chart you are refering to shows that blacks aged 10-14 are more likely to become mothers than hispanics. If we go back 10 years then blacks in all age groups examined are more likely than hispanics to become unwed mothers than blacks. I am no sociologist and I wasn't aware of the recent decline in birth rate among African Americans nor do I know what to attribute it to.

When I said the birth rate among blacks and hispanics was roughly equal for teens in the CDC report I was refering to page 9 right under the chart where it says "Birth rates for unmarried black and Hispanic teenagers are quite comparable, but at ages 20 years and over, rates for Hispanic women are increasingly higher than for black women with advancing maternal age. Birth rates by age for unmarried API(asian) women are consistently lowest of all."

The original discussion was about some kind of culture of acceptance ONLY found among some blacks with regard to getting pregnant as teens. You stated this was not a phenomena found among Latinos. Since Hispanics have the highest teen birth rate, then your argument fails. Nothing was said about married women for that point

Am I missing something?

I believe you are. I said this : "I would say this (the attitude toward teen, unwed motherhood)is a destructive cultural attitude as the lack of stigma for those teens choosing to have babies makes it more acceptable and therefore it can be expected to be more common. And, statistically there is no arguing it is more common among african americans than any other ethnic group."

Now, let me freely admit I am surprised by the number of hispanic births to teen, unwed mothers and I am also surprised by the drop in birth rate to african american teens. These are things that prior to this discussion I was not aware of.

Based upon my personal, albeit limitted and definitely ancedotal experience with blacks and hispanics I would say that the birth rate among hispanics has more to do with hispanics being the most family oriented ethnic group I have ever known. Hispanics are also majority Catholic who believe abortion to be murder etc. Blacks don't seem to have this view as part of their culture.

In other words it is my suspiscion that the birth rate among hispanics (which the CDC says have remained roughly constant) is due to attitudes toward abortion. The birth rate among blacks I believe to be related to the lack of social stigma/presence of social expectation/acceptance of early child birth. Again, I am referring to low income blacks, not all blacks, and not even all lower income blacks. The stats clearly show a huge gap in behavior among african americans when segregated by income group.

And yes, this is the topic I wish to stick to except that I am more concerned with the cultural norms for this black subculture than numbers of births in isolation. Please read the Urban Institute paper I linked to and we can discuss.

I did read it, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make, still.

Ok, let me spell it out because in rereading my posts I recognize I have not been consistent enough. I know what I mean, but I get lazy as I type and so I don't always communicate as precisely as I think I am.

My claim is this:

There exists a subculture among lower income blacks that accepts and even encourages single, teenaged, women/girls to have children even though it is economic suicide.

Note the criteria I am mentioning.
african american
low class economically
unmarried

My evidence for this claim is my own experience/interaction with these people as well as my conversations with family and friends who have worked with these people in one capacity or another (teacher/instructor/social worker/prison case worker/nurse). Because I realize that my personal experience and ancedotes are not going to be convincing evidence for anyone else I have attempted to show more objective/impartial sources to support my claim.

I have provided a link to a study where black, single, teen females were asked if they wanted to be pregnant and a quarter of them said yes and within 6 months about 20% of them were single and pregnant.

I provided a link to a standford student's research paper (the weakest of my links by far) that I thought did a good job of describing the societal reasons why blacks embrace single motherhood to a greater degree than others.(I think it is a good paper because it squares with my experience)

I provided a link to the Urban Institute which found a "striking" difference among white, latinos and blacks as related to teen aged single motherhood or other familial relations where the father is not a meaningful part of the equation.

Your own link to the CDC shows that despite a drop in African American birth rates during the last 10 years the age group 10-14 for african americans (which are certainly not married) exceeds that of any any other group dramatically.

I have made mention of well known african americans such as Bill Cosby and Walter Williams who have made mention of the black subculture I am speaking of.

From where I sit my case has been well made. From where I sit my claims aren't even controversial since african american coworkers I have discussed this with recognize it as well. What is curious to me is that others such as VM, Liv and yourself don't recognize it.

I am not sure if this is due to geographical differences or what.

Finally, since you read the Urban Institute link and don't get the point I am making, I will cut and paste the sections of it I consider most relevant here and bold portions for emphasis:

The really striking racial and ethnic differences occur with children who do not live with their fathers (i.e., those in fragile-visiting, divorced-visiting, and single-mother families). Almost 74 percent of poor black children live in this situation, but 21 percent live in fragile-visiting families.

Focusing on the youngest children amplifies these racial differences (table 3). While there are no statistically significant race or ethnic differences in the proportion of poor infants who live with a single mother and an uninvolved father, infants with highly involved fathers experience father-involvement through different living arrangements. Nonblack infants primarily experience father involvement through marriage, while black infants primarily do so through fragile-visiting arrangements. Thus, roughly 40 percent of poor nonblack infants live in married families, and between 20 and 26 percent live in fragile families. By contrast, marriage is a rare experience for poor black infants, but living in fragile-visiting families is quite common; fully 45 percent of these infants do so.

This general characterization of the living arrangements of poor children has one important caveat. Black children are much less likely than nonblack children to live with both of their natural parents because so few of their parents marry or cohabit.

[livius drusus]

As you now know, the birthrate for black teen mothers has dropped precipitously in the last 10 years. If a "subculture" is responsible for the rate of pregnancies, then why is not also responsible for the disproportionate decline?

This (http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/ethicalperspectives/teenpregnancy.html) an article that originally appeared in the San Francisco Chronicle states:

That speculation, however, does not stand up to scrutiny. The drop in teen births started during the Clinton era's emphasis on increased access to contraception and continued through the Bush Administration's reversal of policies. The changing patterns preceded welfare reform. They began during a time of prosperity and accelerated during the recent economic downturn.

This compelling good news story can be explained only through an examination of the way sexual mores and childbearing practices change, and recognition that conscious decision-making in African-American and other low-income communities is part of the process.

The author's opinion, gleaned from anecdotal experience not dissimilar to your own, dantonac - ie, talking to people on the front lines - is that the community leaders of this subculture have made combatting teen pregnancy a priority and have succeeded to an extraordinary extent. This hypothesis makes sense of the statistics in a way yours simply cannot.

If the subculture pathologically nurtures teen pregnancies, then how do you account for the plummeting rates?

[LadyShea]

Dantonac, I just thought of something....Cosby and them were talking about the gangsta subculture, IIRC. If we are sitting here talking about gangs, then all this discussion is moot. I will freely admit that the attitudes and lifestyle of those kids in or on the peripheral of youth street gangs are such that early pregnancy and promiscuity are very common and encouraged. The plummeting rates livius mentioned can be accounted for partially at least, by incarceration or death of a good number of the male gang members.

If this is the case, I think we will continue to see the Hispanic and other ethnicities' unmarried teen pregnancy rates rise, as the traditional black gangs are being challenged/supplanted by Hispanic, Asian, and Eastern European youth gangs in many parts of the country.

So, to me, if my hunch is right and you're talking about gangstas, then it is roughtly equivelant to talking about Italians in such general terms when we should have been talking about the Mafia particularly.

[LadyShea]

Ok, the chart you are refering to breaks things down by year, race and age group, not by income. The not showing income was my primary objection and the Urban Institute addresses race and income which I consider more relevant since I have said all along the subculture I am referencing is from the low income class. Even so the chart you are refering to shows that blacks aged 10-14 are more likely to become mothers than hispanics. If we go back 10 years then blacks in all age groups examined are more likely than hispanics to become unwed mothers than blacks. I am no sociologist and I wasn't aware of the recent decline in birth rate among African Americans nor do I know what to attribute it to.

The 10-14 year olds was the only age group where Hispanics were not significantly higher. In the overall "under 19" Hispanic teen rates were the highest, no question. The Guttmacher Institute shows that 83% of teens who give birth are poor (I believe I referenced it I another post). So, if Hispanics have the highest teen birth rate, and teens that give birth are poor, put the two stats together and they address your objection.

I believe you are. I said this : "I would say this (the attitude toward teen, unwed motherhood)is a destructive cultural attitude as the lack of stigma for those teens choosing to have babies makes it more acceptable and therefore it can be expected to be more common. And, statistically there is no arguing it is more common among african americans than any other ethnic group."

I have demonstrated that this is not true. The teen birth rate is higher amongst poor Hispanics overall.

Now, let me freely admit I am surprised by the number of hispanic births to teen, unwed mothers and I am also surprised by the drop in birth rate to african american teens. These are things that prior to this discussion I was not aware of.

Now that you are aware of them, do you see how your focusing, throughout this whole discussion, on blacks, made me wonder if you weren't somewhat racist?

Based upon my personal, albeit limitted and definitely ancedotal experience with blacks and hispanics I would say that the birth rate among hispanics has more to do with hispanics being the most family oriented ethnic group I have ever known. Hispanics are also majority Catholic who believe abortion to be murder etc. Blacks don't seem to have this view as part of their culture.

The Catholic thing may account for the choice to give birth rather than abort, but income level seems to be the main indicator. 20% of all abortions are for Hispanics and 27% of all abortions are for Catholics for comparison purposes.

Also, even though it's "positive", your charatcerization of Hispanics as more family oriented than others is still stereotyping and makes me uncomfortable. Do you even realize you do this? Is this sorta low level racism, maybe racialism is a better word, the common attitude in Wisconsin?


I have provided a link to a study where black, single, teen females were asked if they wanted to be pregnant and a quarter of them said yes and within 6 months about 20% of them were single and pregnant.

One study, in one city, with no control group and the study didn't even ask WHY they wanted to be pregnant. What if they had asked whites or Hispanics the same question? We have nothing to compare the findings with. And the fact that the reasons weren't addressed at all leaves us open to any kind of specualtion or theory...none of which can be tested.

I provided a link to the Urban Institute which found a "striking" difference among white, latinos and blacks as related to teen aged single motherhood or other familial relations where the father is not a meaningful part of the equation.

That paper was related specifically to receiving TANF benefits, and being married/having a live in father REDUCES those benefits. My original argument that having the father around is detrimental when receiving welfare benefits is supported by your paper. If a poor girl sees benefits to having children, and no benefit to having the father around, as I stated earlier, than the findings of this report make complete sense.

Your own link to the CDC shows that despite a drop in African American birth rates during the last 10 years the age group 10-14 for african americans (which are certainly not married) exceeds that of any any other group dramatically.

1.9 for Blacks to Hispanics 1.4...I don't think that's all that "dramatic". And, since the 10-14 year old group is by far the smallest I don't see how that one anomoly makes your case.

I have made mention of well known african americans such as Bill Cosby and Walter Williams who have made mention of the black subculture I am speaking of.

IIRC, Cosby was referencing the gangsta culture.

From where I sit my case has been well made. From where I sit my claims aren't even controversial since african american coworkers I have discussed this with recognize it as well. What is curious to me is that others such as VM, Liv and yourself don't recognize it.

I am not sure if this is due to geographical differences or what.

Possibly geographical differences, but I am beginning to think it's in our attitudes. I look at all of this as socioeconomic inequalities, not racial differences.

The really striking racial and ethnic differences occur with children who do not live with their fathers (i.e., those in fragile-visiting, divorced-visiting, and single-mother families). Almost 74 percent of poor black children live in this situation, but 21 percent live in fragile-visiting families.

Focusing on the youngest children amplifies these racial differences (table 3). While there are no statistically significant race or ethnic differences in the proportion of poor infants who live with a single mother and an uninvolved father, infants with highly involved fathers experience father-involvement through different living arrangements. Nonblack infants primarily experience father involvement through marriage, while black infants primarily do so through fragile-visiting arrangements. Thus, roughly 40 percent of poor nonblack infants live in married families, and between 20 and 26 percent live in fragile families. By contrast, marriage is a rare experience for poor black infants, but living in fragile-visiting families is quite common; fully 45 percent of these infants do so.

This general characterization of the living arrangements of poor children has one important caveat. Black children are much less likely than nonblack children to live with both of their natural parents because so few of their parents marry or cohabit.

All of which I think can be better explained by socioeconomic and welfare benefits factors over race.

[LadyXoc]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, and if not, please feel free to delete or ignore it, etc. But I DO think caucasians behave in similar self-defeating ways, and it is not confined to any one racial group. My background is poor white trash. With the exception of my parents, who were in a rigid religious cult, I have one set of relatives and their peers who were dirty, ignorant, drunks, poor parents, theives, with their fair share of children produced out of wedlock, by various fathers. They ridiculed other family members for "thinking they were big," which covered anything from wanting an education to using words with too many syllables. It may be a "cultural" issue, but I don't see how the hell it can be a racial one. I think it simply gets more negative press when it is done by non-whites. I think the self-defeating culture is not defined by race so much as human frailty or even malice, and the tendency for some people to give in to adverse circumstance, and then try to put down or drag down anyone who might try to escape the same fate.

And if this post is a total non-sequitur, uh...well, never mind. :doh:

[dave_a]

LOL, to LadyShea on the 'gangsta' thing. [editted to remove Liv's name as I thought she wrote your second reply, mine eyes be tired]

First, I don't even know what that is, it's entirely possible that is what I am describing.

However if you are willing to concede that you agree with the birth thing among that group then aren't you saying what I have been saying all along, that there exists among blacks a subculture that finds teen, single motherhood acceptable and even desirable?

I am confused now.

[dave_a]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, and if not, please feel free to delete or ignore it, etc. But I DO think caucasians behave in similar self-defeating ways, and it is not confined to any one racial group. My background is poor white trash. With the exception of my parents, who were in a rigid religious cult, I have one set of relatives and their peers who were dirty, ignorant, drunks, poor parents, theives, with their fair share of children produced out of wedlock, by various fathers. They ridiculed other family members for "thinking they were big," which covered anything from wanting an education to using words with too many syllables. It may be a "cultural" issue, but I don't see how the hell it can be a racial one. I think it simply gets more negative press when it is done by non-whites. I think the self-defeating culture is not defined by race so much as human frailty or even malice, and the tendency for some people to give in to adverse circumstance, and then try to put down or drag down anyone who might try to escape the same fate.

And if this post is a total non-sequitur, uh...well, never mind. :doh:


I think your post is entirely on topic. I completely agree that individuals from all racial backgrounds can give in to and even embrace self defeating/destructive behavior. What I have been refering to is a subculture among African Americans that does this. I call it a subculture because of it's size. It's size is such that entire areas of cities, such as Milwaukee are pretty much written off by most as being beyond help. I am wondering if what LadyShea refers to as 'gangsta' culture isn't what I am referring to. I will have to wait for someone to define that term for me before I can say for sure.

[livius drusus]

LOL, to both LadyShea and Livius on the 'gangsta' thing.

First, I don't even know what that is, it's entirely possible that is what I am describing.

I didn't say anything about gangsta things.

However if you both are willing to concede that you agree with the birth thing among that group then aren't you saying what I have been saying all along, that there exists among blacks a subculture that finds teen, single motherhood acceptable and even desirable?

No. I don't think there is any "birth thing" that is unique to black people. I don't think there is any such thing as a black subculture that nutures teen motherhood.

Even if there weren't evidence of poor black communities - the exact subculture you claim finds teen motherhood desirable - working together to reduce teen pregnancies (and drug abuse, violence, unemployment and all the other ills found in every poor community nomatter what the skin color of its population), I think the enormous decline in teen pregnancy among black women and the plain fact that latina women have higher rates of teen pregnancy demonstrated by the CDC and Guttmacher statistics render your subculture argument entirely moot.

[livius drusus]

I call it a subculture because of it's size. It's size is such that entire areas of cities, such as Milwaukee are pretty much written off by most as being beyond help.

Not by the people who live there, or else how would they have been so successful in reducing teen pregnancy rates?

[LadyShea]

LOL, to LadyShea on the 'gangsta' thing. [editted to remove Liv's name as I though she wrote your second reply, mine eyes be tired]

First, I don't even know what that is, it's entirely possible that is what I am describing.

However if you are willing to concede that you agree with the birth thing among that group then aren't you saying what I have been saying all along, that there exists among blacks a subculture that finds teen, single motherhood acceptable and even desirable?

I am confused now.

You don't know what gangstas are? Gangs; the Bloods, the Crips, etc. Criminal organizations, usually young people, with profit as their motive. Where have you been? Female gang members are often "sexed in" and will have sex with any and all male members.

Yes, gangstas are a subculture of Blacks the same as La Costra Nostra and the Syndicate are subcultures of Sicilians and La Eme and Nuestra Familia are subcultures of Mexican Americans.


Also, please respond to my longer post before we continue on this. If you are referring to gangstas, your argument completely fails because the gang lifestyle is 100% economically motivated, not cultural or racial.

[dave_a]

I call it a subculture because of it's size. It's size is such that entire areas of cities, such as Milwaukee are pretty much written off by most as being beyond help.

Not by the people who live there, or else how would they have been so successful in reducing teen pregnancy rates?


No idea. Those numbers present national statistics and I don't see that this subculture has stopped regarding single, teen motherhood as a desirable or acceptable thing. Possibly it has shrunk due to some factor(s) on a national scale, I dunno.

Since I am talking about a subculture and not a race I think the numbers for the racial group can drop without there being any change in the subculture.

Look, I am refering to something that prominent african american leaders have identified and I see in places I have lived. I stated that at the outset.

I have presented articles, studies and the like to try and support some of what I am saying, but at the same time I don't claim I have any data that is going to be the bombshell on this issue.

What it ultimately boils down to is what I see with my own 2 eyes. I can't translate that into a web link. I have tried to find web links to support aspects of what I am saying, but if they are just going to be endlessly countered with birth rate figures from 10 years ago to today and the like it's getting beyond what I care to deal with. Birth rates aren't central to what I am talking about.

A subculture among african americans that embraces single, teen motherhood is. I have shown that in one group the teens indicated they wished to be pregnant and 6 months later many were. The response is this only applies to one area and there is no explanation of why they wanted to get pregnant. OK, I agree. If we want to look at it from a strictly study/statistic based perspective I really doubt I am going to find research that asks all the right questions and uses faultless methodology to make anyone happy.

I have shown that among poor people, there is a striking difference in familial arrangements between whites/hispanics and blacks. This keeps getting refered to as an economic issue, but the difference is among the same socio-conomic level comparing 3 ethnic groups.

I don't really know that there is much more for me to say on the issue. I think I have provided all that I can to support what I know to be true from personal involvement and the involvement of family and friends in the black inner city area of Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha. It's distinct, and from what african americans such as my coworker as well as nationally prominent blacks like Walter Williams, Bill Cosby and even more recently (and flat out shockingly) Eugene Kane who is a columnist who used to toe the 'blacks are victims' line to a tee until he met Cosby in Milwaukee have been saying this phenomenon doesn't appear limitted to SE Wisconsin.

[dave_a]

Note: the subculture I am referring to is the same one Bill cosby referred to when he came to Milwaukee and said ""It is not all right for your 15-year-old daughter to have a child," the comedian said Wednesday night. "I'm 67 years old. I'm not talking to you any different from a grandfather who would say, `I wouldn't do that if I were you.'""

So, who is Bill Cosby talking to? Apparently he is talking to people who think it is OK for thier 15 year old daughter to have a child.

That's what I am talking about.

And no, LadyShea, apparently we aren't talking about 'gangsta' culture.

[LadyShea]

Dantonac, then there is no discussion. You say you and others see something, but what you see is NOT backed up by studies or statistics.

What I see is a socioeconomic class that is routinely discriminated against, villianized, marginialized, with few options to better their situation. I assert that many girls (of any race...in the Southwest you see this amongst Hispanics more prominantly) in this situation will have children young in order to take advantage of the social programs available to them (some states pay for childcare, school, food, housing, and medical for young single mothers....most minimum wage jobs do not offer this).

You seem to feel that this reflects some kind of desire or embracing of being stuck in the poverty cycle and that it only applies to Blacks. I just don't get that.

[viscousmemories]

What it ultimately boils down to is what I see with my own 2 eyes.
This is what it boils down to for me, too. I don't think you're an evil racist monster or anything, but I am surprised at your willingness to make such definitive generalizations about black people based only on your personal experience and in the absence of substantial statistical evidence to support your assertions.

Pointing out that there are neighborhoods in America that are predominantly black and have an apparently high number of citizens with what I consider skewed values regarding teen pregnancy isn't the same, in my mind, as proving the existence of a uniquely black, low-income subculture that embraces teen pregnancy. To me the former implies individual dysfunction that could apply to any racial group, the latter implies a social inadequacy unique to black people. So yeah, that seems like a racist assumption to me. And of course racism and bias aren't the exclusive domain of white people either, so I don't find the fact that there are black people who agree with you very compelling either.

[LadyShea]

I don't think you are an evil racist monster either, Dantonac, but I do think you are entirely too comfortable with some clearly racist (or racialist if you prefer) ideas and assumptions and are very receptive to confirmation bias with regards to those assumptions. I hope, if nothing else, you might want to explore your own attitudes about this.

[dave_a]

Dantonac, then there is no discussion. You say you and others see something, but what you see is NOT backed up by studies or statistics.

I think the Urban Institute link did a fine job of looking at blacks,whites and hispanics in the same economic spectrum and identifying a striking difference in familal living arrangements that favored no father present to a "strikingly" higher percentage than either of the 2 other groups. You have stated you believe this is an socio-economic issue. I don't agree that it can be explained by economics alone because the "striking" difference was among 3 ethnic groups at the same economic level. I do believe there are sociological causes, but one of those causes, I believe, is a subcultural attitude toward single, teen motherhood. It's not regarded as a bad thing or a negative thing. *Why* that is, I dunno.

Again, the stats presented by the Urban Institute *do* support what I have said.

What I see is a socioeconomic class that is routinely discriminated against, villianized, marginialized, with few options to better their situation. I assert that many girls (of any race...in the Southwest you see this amongst Hispanics more prominantly) in this situation will have children young in order to take advantage of the social programs available to them (some states pay for childcare, school, food, housing, and medical for young single mothers....most minimum wage jobs do not offer this).

Sure, I can buy that for a dollar, and I am largely ignorant of the hispanic population out your way. I understand that in the west there is a huge hispanic population, but in Wisconsin there isn't (it's a little over half what the african-american pop. is). So I just see what I am describing with blacks.

The hispanics I see are predominantly middle and upper class with the exception of a small group in the town I live in that are primarily lower income drug gangs from Chicago who have located here to serve as a conduit between Chicago and Madison/Green bay for drug supply. I don't regard them as the norm in anyway, but perhaps that sort of thing is more prevalent in your neck of the woods. I also have no idea what their attitudes on single, teen motherhood are. Perhaps this small group would be what you refer to as 'gangsta'? I have not seen this embracing of single motherhood among the latinos I have known, but I have interacted with far fewer latinos than blacks since it is the inner city folks we generally work with and they are predominantly african american.

You seem to feel that this reflects some kind of desire or embracing of being stuck in the poverty cycle and that it only applies to Blacks. I just don't get that.

Hmmm, I might be wrong. Where I live it does apply to poor, inner city blacks to such a disproportionate degree that it is exclusive to their subculture.

However, I do not believe there is any innate characteristic of blacks that causes this, rather I believe the root of it lies in social factors. So, I concede that the same social factors which have produced this in the subculture I see it in can cause it in any other group. I simply haven't seen it so widespread in any other ethnic group, but that could be because of where I live. dunno.

In any event the Bill Cosby statement I posted above when he was in Milwaukee not long ago was directed at the group I am speaking of. I could be wrong that this applies to a distinctly african american subculture when looking at it from a national point of view. I do believe the subculture among low income african americans exists and it is destroying them, I see that with my own eyes.

I also don't see that behavior with the hispanics around here to any remarkable degree. I don't see it with whites to a remarkable degree, nor asians, arabs etc.

If we have a hispanic culture that embraces failure as virtue, teen motherhood, shuns education etc. then that's really sad. I had always believed that hispanics were more likely to work their asses off to improve their lot in life as a general rule.

[LadyShea]

Hmm, a simple Google search indicates that you most probably though unknowingly are referring to gangstas.

Racine Country Sherriff's Department Gang Information (http://www.racineco.com/sheriff/gang.aspx)

Paper looking at the emrgence of gangs in Wisconsin due to widespread unemployment in the 80's (http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/envrnmnt/drugfree/v1takata.htm)

Throughout the 1980s, poverty was reaching dramatic proportions, particularly among African Americans. According to the 1998 report issued by the University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee’s Center for Economic Development, “The Economic State of Milwaukee: The City and the Region,” Milwaukee ranks worst of the fourteen “Frostbelt” cities in the rate of black poverty. In desperation, many young men were turning to the drug trade as a way to provide economic sustenance.http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/gangs/north-side_milwaukee_neighborhood.htm

[LadyShea]

I think the Urban Institute link did a fine job of looking at blacks,whites and hispanics in the same economic spectrum and identifying a striking difference in familal living arrangements that favored no father present to a "strikingly" higher percentage than either of the 2 other groups. You have stated you believe this is an socio-economic issue. I don't agree that it can be explained by economics alone because the "striking" difference was among 3 ethnic groups at the same economic level. I do believe there are sociological causes, but one of those causes, I believe, is a subcultural attitude toward single, teen motherhood. It's not regarded as a bad thing or a negative thing. *Why* that is, I dunno.

It is obvious from your entire attitude that you have done no further research into this area prior to this discussion. The fact that you have a presupposed bias, then confirmed it with a few sources without looking at the mountains of sociological research into all of these areas, clearly states to me that not only are you a racist and were probably raised to be one, but you don't even care. What are you teaching your kids?

Again, the stats presented by the Urban Institute *do* support what I have said.

One paper Dantonac. If your aim was to simply "win" in this discussion, great. You win. I prefer to learn from any discussion I am in.

You don't seem to give even one shit as to why you observe what you observe, delve any deeper into the issue, question your own attitudes, or look for any any possible alternate explanations for or refutations of your ideas.

Sure, I can buy that for a dollar, and I am largely ignorant of the hispanic population out your way. I understand that in the west there is a huge hispanic population, but in Wisconsin there isn't (it's a little over half what the african-american pop. is). So I just see what I am describing with blacks.

And then making huge sweeping generalizations that what you see is true everywhere to the point of being boggled as to why WE don't see the same things and/or interpret them differently....starting with asserting that most abortions are done for poor blacks when you had NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Do you not see any problem with this? You have basically admitted to totally insulating yourself in your little white, suburban Pleasantville and not giving a shit about the greater society you live in.

The hispanics I see are predominantly middle and upper class with the exception of a small group in the town I live in that are primarily lower income drug gangs from Chicago who have located here to serve as a conduit between Chicago and Madison/Green bay for drug supply. I don't regard them as the norm in anyway, but perhaps that sort of thing is more prevalent in your neck of the woods. I also have no idea what their attitudes on single, teen motherhood are. I have not seen this embracing of single motherhood among the latinos I have known, but I have interacted with far fewer latinos than blacks since it is the inner city folks we generally work with and they are predominantly african american.[/

Well, we have a large number of Hispanics that are basically slave labor in the agricultural areas of the West. Many may have immigration issues and therefore are employed under the table for under minimum wage with no labor protections and can't say or do anything about it because of the threat of being reported to INS.

Having a baby born in the US, and therefore automatically a citizen eliegible for benefits, aids in getting legal status....so having babies as soon as possible is a good thing. Also, the social programs I mentioned are very attractive to someone making minimum wage or less, so having children and being unmarried is also a good thing.

Perhaps this small group would be what you refer to as 'gangsta'?

Gangs cover every ethnicity and even socioeconomic class. We have rich, white kid gangs.

However, I do not believe there is any innate characteristic of blacks that causes this, rather I believe the root of it lies in social factors. So, I concede that the same social factors which have produced this in the subculture I see it in can cause it in any other group. I simply haven't seen it so widespread in any other ethnic group, but that could be because of where I live. dunno.

Apprently where you live totally lacks any kind of culture or racial diversity or sensitivity to the economic and social disparity between the races. Basically, you have some blacks, you keep them locked into their little neighborhoods with no jobs, label them as being segregated and poor by choice, and are happy that way.

In any event the Bill Cosby statement I posted above when he was in Milwaukee not long ago was directed at the group I am speaking of. I could be wrong that this applies to a distinctly african american subculture when looking at it from a national point of view. I do believe the subculture among low income african americans exists and it is destroying them, I see that with my own eyes.

Cosby has spoken about the gang lifestyle for some time. What you are describing is gang culture spawned from poverty and lack of opportunity. It is a social problem, but many communities have been addressing the issues and seeing a decline in violence, pregnancy rates as has been demonstrated, and an increase is opportunity.

If your entire attitude is ""They" are that way, want to be that way, I don't really understand or care, and "they" are hopeless" your area is not likely to see the same strides being made, especially if that attitude is shared and passed on within YOUR subculture.

If we have a hispanic culture that embraces failure as virtue, teen motherhood, shuns education etc. then that's really sad. I had always believed that hispanics were more likely to work their asses off to improve their lot in life as a general rule.

Do you really and truly not see that you are being RACIST with this statement?

[dave_a]

I think the Urban Institute link did a fine job of looking at blacks,whites and hispanics in the same economic spectrum and identifying a striking difference in familal living arrangements that favored no father present to a "strikingly" higher percentage than either of the 2 other groups. You have stated you believe this is an socio-economic issue. I don't agree that it can be explained by economics alone because the "striking" difference was among 3 ethnic groups at the same economic level. I do believe there are sociological causes, but one of those causes, I believe, is a subcultural attitude toward single, teen motherhood. It's not regarded as a bad thing or a negative thing. *Why* that is, I dunno.

It is obvious from your entire attitude that you have done no further research into this area prior to this discussion. The fact that you have a presupposed bias, then confirmed it with a few sources without looking at the mountains of sociological research into all of these areas, clearly states to me that not only are you a racist and were probably raised to be one, but you don't even care. What are you teaching your kids?

Oh brother, here we go.

Again, the stats presented by the Urban Institute *do* support what I have said.

One paper Dantonac. If your aim was to simply "win" in this discussion, great. You win. I prefer to learn from any discussion I am in.

Sorry, I didn't realize I was only allowed to use sources that you believe agree with your views. :crybaby:

I am sorry you don't like what the urban institute said. Why get all hostile on me and start throwing the racist card around? Settle down and resume rational discussion. As I stated from the very beginning the subject was whether there exists a subculture among blacks that embraces single motherhood. There is. I made unfortunate statements that reflect 10 year old facts that black single moms were greater in number than other ethnic groups. That is no longer true except among the 10-14 year olds.

You don't seem to give even one shit as to why you observe what you observe, delve any deeper into the issue, question your own attitudes, or look for any any possible alternate explanations for or refutations of your ideas.

Wow, are you sure you know me that well? When was the last time you went into an area where being white was enough to get you killed and worked with the children of absentee, drug addicted parents trying to make a difference? How many crack babies who can't even control their own bodies have you held? This is why these discussions are so pointless. You start out saying you don't think I am a racist, but then you come right out and scream racist multiple times in a post. For what? Because I have eyes that see what the inner city blacks are doing to themselves with the self defeating attitudes they hold to as a badge of honor? Please. You can socio analyze it to your heart's content, I only assert it exists, I haven't made any claims as to why it exists.

Sure, I can buy that for a dollar, and I am largely ignorant of the hispanic population out your way. I understand that in the west there is a huge hispanic population, but in Wisconsin there isn't (it's a little over half what the african-american pop. is). So I just see what I am describing with blacks.

And then making huge sweeping generalizations that what you see is true everywhere to the point of being boggled as to why WE don't see the same things and/or interpret them differently. Do you not see any problem with this? You have basically admitted to totally insulating yourself in your little white, suburban Pleasantville and not giving a shit about the greater society you live in.

Ughh. for the zillionth time I base my beliefs on going into the inner city, something even the cops rarely do, and working in the charter schools, voluntarily. Please drop your self righteous attitude, you don't know me and your presumptions are absurd.



Apprently where you live totally lacks any kind of culture or racial diversity or sensitivity to the economic and social disparity between the races. Basically, you have some blacks, you keep them locked into their little neighborhoods with no jobs, label them as being segregated and poor by choice, and are happy that way.

Ok, no, you are right. It's entirely society's fault. Us racist whites make them have babies in their teens, we addict them to drugs, we make them shoot each other, we close the school doors so they can't get in. Sheesh.

I do understand there is a cycle of poverty and things like the drug war affect the poor horribly. But as Bill Cosby says that isn't the reason why this subculture stays where they are, it's internal self defeating attitudes this subculture possesses and embraces. You seem to want to explain this culture as being the fault of society without acknowledging there is also an element of personal responsiblity.


If your entire attitude is ""They" are that way, want to be that way, I don't really understand or care" is not likely to see the same strides being made, especially if that attitude is shared and passed on within YOUR subculture.

I think "they" do have babies in their teens because they want to, just as the study I linked to indicated the surveyed group did. Yeah, I realize you view it as insufficent evidence, but it shows what I see.

If we have a hispanic culture that embraces failure as virtue, teen motherhood, shuns education etc. then that's really sad. I had always believed that hispanics were more likely to work their asses off to improve their lot in life as a general rule.

Do you really and truly not see that you are being RACIST with this statement?

No, I don't see it. If I said that hispanics were majority catholic is that racist? You seemed to say so previously? If I say Americans are mostly Christian is that racist?

As I said, I am a culturalist. I do believe that cultures exist and that there are common traits shared by members of that culture. If you don't believe this then you don't. Go ahead and call me a culturalist all day, I am one, but a racist I am not.

Anyway, I am done with this discussion, at least for now. I generally don't participate in discussions where I get called a racist for citing data and making you address it.

[LadyShea]

Oh brother, here we go. Sorry, I didn't realize I was only allowed to use sources that you believe agree with your views. :crybaby:
I am sorry you don't like what the urban institute said. Why get all hostile on me and start throwing the racist card around? Settle down and resume rational discussion.

You can use any sources you want, and I think your source backed up my position as well. I never said I didn't like what it said.

I just wonder at your stopping at this one source. That source was very specific to one aspect of the problem (TANF benefits and fatherly involvement) and did not explore further. Yes, they were all "poor" but it went on to only specifically describe actual joblessness as being amongst blacks. Could that possibly point to a disparity between the working poor and the totally unemployed with regard to the issue being explored? Did it not bring up additional questions in your mind?


Wow, are you sure you know me that well?

All I know is what you have posted and have based my observations on that. That's why I used the word "seem", meaning "From what you are displaying to me, this is what I perceive"

When was the last time you went into an area where being white was enough to get you killed and worked with the children of absentee, drug addicted parents trying to make a difference? How many crack babies who can't even control their own bodies have you held?

I do not do this work, no. If you do this on a regular basis, how is it that you have no knowledge of gangs or realize that the subculture you are talking about is gang culture?

This is why these discussions are so pointless. You start out saying you don't think I am a racist, but then you come right out and scream racist multiple times in a post. For what? Because I have eyes that see what the inner city blacks are doing to themselves with the self defeating attitudes they hold to as a badge of honor? Please. You can socio analyze it to your heart's content, I only assert it exists, I haven't made any claims as to why it exists.

I really didn't want to believe you were a racist, but throughout this discussion you have set yourself apart from others and asserted stereotypes as if they are universally known truths. That you once again state "I am calling what I see" while refusing to look at why things are the way they are, that makes me think you don't really care. So it exists, in your eyes and in your region, now what?

Now, I had hoped that by discussing this in a larger context you might start discussing the whys and possible solutions and I would see that you do care about these issues. Maybe that expectation to broaden the discussion was wrong on my part, but I got frustrated with you, because I like you for the most part but your attitude with regard to this issue is jarring.


Ughh. for the zillionth time I base my beliefs on going into the inner city, something even the cops rarely do, and working in the charter schools, voluntarily. Please drop your self righteous attitude, you don't know me and your presumptions are absurd.

Yet, you know very little about the people you are working with and haven't stated that you want to. I find that self righteous and condescending to them. If my presumptions are absurd, it is because what you are presenting to me lacks any indication of caring.



Ok, no, you are right. It's entirely society's fault. Us racist whites make them have babies in their teens, we addict them to drugs, we make them shoot each other, we close the school doors so they can't get in. Sheesh.

We refuse them jobs and housing, we arrest and incarcerate them disproportionately, we make having children in their teens an attractive option, we make crime an attractive option and set them in deadly competition.

I do understand there is a cycle of poverty and things like the drug war affect the poor horribly. But as Bill Cosby says that isn't the reason why this subculture stays where they are, it's internal self defeating attitudes this subculture possesses and embraces. You seem to want to explain this culture as being the fault of society without acknowledging there is also an element of personal responsiblity.

I think SOME people, regardless of race, are personally responsible for their lives being shit. I will not, however, demonize and entire group of people when I know for a fact that society plays an enormous role in these issues.



I think "they" do have babies in their teens because they want to, just as the study I linked to indicated the surveyed group did. Yeah, I realize you view it as insufficent evidence, but it shows what I see.

Yes, and if you were interested in further study, I wouldn't be so shocked and appalled right now. Why stop at one, small study?

This Study (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-01/cfta-bpm011303.php) shows that the majority of those who desire pregnancy think it is because their older boyfriends want them to have babies. Does this add additional information to your study or flesh out your position? Does it help us understand whys? Does the fact that the majority of the boyfriends are 5 years older change the perception at all? Does it open any other avenues of discussion or research? Do you care beyond verifying your initial conviction that these girls simply desire pregancy?




No, I don't see it. If I said that hispanics were majority catholic is that racist? You seemed to say so previously? If I say Americans are mostly Christian is that racist?

You "have always believed Hispanics work their asses off" is not a fact, it is a racial stereotype. This particular one happens to be a "positive" stereotype, but it is still racism to make such generalizations.

We know that Hispanics are largely Catholic, we know the majority of Americans are Christian, those are demonstrable facts. We do not know that the majority of Christians are against church state separation or are YEC or are support the death penalty or even that the majority are loving nice people (another positive stereotype)...that would be an unsupported stereotype along the lines of your "Mexicans work hard" belief or "Blacks have big penises".

As I said, I am a culturalist. I do believe that cultures exist and that there are common traits shared by members of that culture. If you don't believe this then you don't. Go ahead and call me a culturalist all day, I am one, but a racist I am not.

I never said cultures don't exist and have, in fact, named a number of specific subcultures.

Anyway, I am done with this discussion, at least for now. I generally don't participate in discussions where I get called a racist for citing data and making you address it.

And I am not used to discussions where one stubbornly clings to preconceived notions and has no interest in learning anything. I am here to learn and teach and challenge my own ideas, not just prove my individual points. I am sorry you don't share this desire and I am sorry that you come across as a racist (albeit a half-assed, rather unconscious one). If you are not one, and you don't care to convince me otherwise, that's fine, I thought you might want to at least know that soe of your ideas APPEAR racist to others.

[dave_a]

I just wonder at your stopping at this one source. That source was very specific to one aspect of the problem (TANF benefits and fatherly involvement) and did not explore further. Yes, they were all "poor" but it went on to only specifically describe actual joblessness as being amongst blacks. Could that possibly point to a disparity between the working poor and the totally unemployed with regard to the issue being explored? Did it not bring up additional questions in your mind?

Not for discussion here, no. The OP was my stating that there is within african americans a subculture that embraces single, teen pregnancy as desirable or normal and it's a destructive view.

I also stated that I didn't see this same view held by any other ethic view. I conceded, based upon what you provided that it may hold true to a significant degree among latinos as well, but that I hadn't seen that where I live.

The position taken by yourself, Liv and VM is that this subculture doesn't exist.

You have been presenting information that appears to me to try and explain "why" this phenomenon exists, but that isn't what I have been discussing.

What I have been discussing is does it exist or not? If your answer is 'no', then I don't understand why we are discussing why something that doesn't exist, exists.



When was the last time you went into an area where being white was enough to get you killed and worked with the children of absentee, drug addicted parents trying to make a difference? How many crack babies who can't even control their own bodies have you held?

I do not do this work, no. If you do this on a regular basis, how is it that you have no knowledge of gangs or realize that the subculture you are talking about is gang culture?

I know that gangs exist, I wasn't familar with your 'gangsta culture'. I have heard of gangsta rap, but that's it. In a previous post I mentioned the latino gang that lives in the town I presently reside in that connects the Chicago and Madison/Green bay areas for drug supply so I don't know why you would think I am ignorant of the existence of gangs. I also don't agree that what I am describing is a gang culture, you are the one that brought it up, I asked you to define it and then said that wasn't what I was talking about.

I really didn't want to believe you were a racist, but throughout this discussion you have set yourself apart from others and asserted stereotypes as if they are universally known truths. That you once again state "I am calling what I see" while refusing to look at why things are the way they are, that makes me think you don't really care. So it exists, in your eyes and in your region, now what?

Again, the OP asks whether this subculture I claim exists actually does or not. You keep wanting to explore the socio-economic factors underlying *why* it exists which seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse since your stated position is that it doesn't exist. I really don't care *why* things are the way they are for the sake of this discussion because it is pointless to discuss why something that you say doesn't exist, exists.

Now, I had hoped that by discussing this in a larger context you might start discussing the whys and possible solutions and I would see that you do care about these issues. Maybe that expectation to broaden the discussion was wrong on my part, but I got frustrated with you, because I like you for the most part but your attitude with regard to this issue is jarring.

Again, either there is a subculture among african americans that embraces teen, unwed motherhood or there is not. If there is not then there is no point in discussing why there is. So, either you agree there is and the OP has run it's course or you don't agree there is and there is no point in discussing the whys.


Yet, you know very little about the people you are working with and haven't stated that you want to. I find that self righteous and condescending to them. If my presumptions are absurd, it is because what you are presenting to me lacks any indication of caring.

Well I am sorry that you feel I lack caring. What do you suppose my motivation is to go into all black areas that are the murder centers of Milwaukee and spend time (that I have to take off from work) to facilitate getting these kids on a field trip and out of the ghetto for a few hours? What do you suppose my motivation is intervening in incidents of physical violence that could get me stabbed or shot? What do you suppose my motivation is in cradling the disabled body of a crack whore's 5 year old? You are seeing what you want to see rather than what is being presented. Somehow you assume that the time I have spent in these areas is motivated by not caring????


We refuse them jobs and housing, we arrest and incarcerate them disproportionately, we make having children in their teens an attractive option, we make crime an attractive option and set them in deadly competition.

Sure, I agree with all these things. I used to be on the steering comittee of Wisconsin's NORML chapter because I view the drug war as one of the greatest social evils in the nation. I am not ignorant of these things. One of the reasons there are so many black kids with no father is because they are in prison. We don't disagree here at all.

It doesn't change the fact that there is, among african americans, a subculture that embraces single, teen pregancy/motherhood as a desirable state. That was my claim, first expressed by Sweetie as something along the lines of "black 13 year olds getting pregnant because they think it's cool" (paraphrase from memory).

That statement of hers along with my agreeing with it is what set this whole series of posts off. I also stated this appeared to me uniquely an african american subculture and I didn't see it existing in any other culture where the idea of single motherhood was desirable rather than a consequence one might have to accept if abortion isn't an acceptable answer. You have shown me statistics concerning hispanics. Those statistics do not reveal that they *desire* to be single mothers, but I wasn't aware the numbers for that group were as high as they are. I took that into account and conceded that this might not be unique to the african american subculture. I don't know if it is or not. I do know from personal experience and interaction that this black sub culture does 'get pregant because it's cool', whether poor hispanics have the same attitude or not I don't know. I haven't seen it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[editted to add: The urban institute's breakdown of familial living arrangements supports my belief that this notion of single motherhood is unique to african americans when it shows the striking disparity in the percentage of homes with no paternal involvement. The numbers you provided showing birth rates among single hispanics do not reveal whether or not there is any paternal support or involvement, they simply indicate whether the girl was married at the time of child birth. The Urban institute study answers the question of whether or not these unwed births involve the father in the mother/child's life or not. To a much greater degree than any other racial group, the african american births to unwed teens do not. this makes this group distinct/unique.]


I think SOME people, regardless of race, are personally responsible for their lives being shit. I will not, however, demonize and entire group of people when I know for a fact that society plays an enormous role in these issues.


I am not trying to demonize anyone or any group. I simply asserted this subculture that sees no harm in single, teen motherhood (and embraces it as normal and even desirable) exists. That's it. Had I not gotten disagreement from you, Liv and VM we wouldn't be having this discussion. Asserting it exists is not to pass judgement as to why it exists. I said previously I didn't believe there was anything inate within african americans that causes this and that the cause is almost certainly a combination of socio economic factors. I simply said that economic factors alone couldn't explain it since the familial living arrangements among poor whites, hispanics and blacks are not the same. Blacks have no father in the picture far more frequently according to the Urban Institute. This leaves social or cultural reasons to explain the phenomenon of single teen motherhood among african americans. But, again, discussing the reasons is pointless if we don't have agreement the subculture exists.

I think "they" do have babies in their teens because they want to, just as the study I linked to indicated the surveyed group did. Yeah, I realize you view it as insufficent evidence, but it shows what I see.

Yes, and if you were interested in further study, I wouldn't be so shocked and appalled right now. Why stop at one, small study?


Because I wasn't interested in examining why this phenomenon exists with people who tell me it doesn't exist which is what you, Liv and VM did.

Anyway the rest of your post I am responding to is more of your wondering why I haven't been interested in discussing the whys. I think I have answered that.

[LadyShea]

All I have been debating is your assertion that this phenomena ONLY exists amongst poor blacks and is universal and apparent to all. I never denied that such an attitude exists, I only objected to your labeling and perception of it as a subculture.

Basically, what I see as some individuals or even groups of inividuals, of any and all races, desire young pregnancy for a number of reasons. I cannot call this a non-specified subculture, because to me that indicates some kind of taught/learned value or attitude within an intentional community or family.

I will concede that this happens within the gang culture, and judging by the gang problem in the areas you are talking about, you are also talking about gang culture. Over 7% of middle schoolers, 10-13 year olds in those areas already belong to a gang, how can you say the crack babies and such that you are working with aren't coming from within them?

Lastly, I have worked on other issues side by side with people who didn't give a shit about the people we were helping....they were trying to get brownie points amongst their peers, coworkers, or get some publicity. It is possible to volunteer and appear to be helping people, even if you actually hate, despise, or fear them and not truly give a shit. I had no way of knowing if this is the case with you or not, but you seem to have dismissed these people as hopeless.

I apologize for taking us off topic, I am not used to sticking so closely to a single point or issue, I thought we were just going off in a direction.

This thread can end here I guess.

[dave_a]

All I have been debating is your assertion that this phenomena ONLY exists amongst poor blacks. Basically, what I see as some individuals or even groups of inividuals, of any and all races, desire young pregnancy for a number of reasons. I cannot call this a non-specified subculture, because to me that indicates some kind of taught/learned value or attitude within an intentional community or family.

I didn't assert that it exists only among poor blacks, I asserted that it only exists among poor blacks to such a degree that it is identifiable as a subculture rather than instances of individual poor choices.

I will concede that this happens within the gang culture, and judging by the gang problem in the areas you are talking about, you are also talking about gang culture. Over 7% of middle schoolers, 10-13 year olds in those areas already belong to a gang, how can you say the crack babies and such that you are working with aren't coming from within them?

I can't, gangs are prevalent in these areas. You were discussing something unique though, that involved a structured, organized criminal organization that initiates females into the gang via sex and occurs with all racial groups. I don't know anything about that. It didn't seem to match what I was talking about at all.

Lastly, I have worked on other issues side by side with people who didn't give a shit about the people we were helping....they were trying to get brownie points amongst their peers, coworkers, or get some publicity. It is possible to volunteer and appear to be helping people, even if you actually hate, despise, or fear them and not truly give a shit. I had no way of knowing if this is the case with you or not, but you seem to have dismissed these people as hopeless.

Well I am not a politician or a church goer so I don't know who I would be trying to earn brownie points from.

I apologize for taking us off topic, I am not used to sticking so closely to a single point or issue, I thought we were just going off in a direction.

This thread can end here I guess.


Please see my post above this one. I editted it to add something while you were typing this. Just look for the bolded "editted to add" part.

That is where I believe the case is made that the embracing of single motherhood is unique to this african american subculture. If you want to discuss that aspect it is fine with me and if you feel you have spent enough time on this issue and wish to let it go, that is fine as well.

Before you go though, would you agree with the initial statement that Sweetie made and I concurred with that there are black, single teens who get pregnant because they think it is cool or do you still believe this is not true?

[LadyShea]

Before you go though, would you agree with the initial statement that Sweetie made and I concurred with that there are black, single teens who get pregnant because they think it is cool or do you still believe this is not true?

I never said there wasn't. So yes, I agree there are some teens who get pregnant because it's cool. What I don't agree with, is that it is an exclusively black phenomena though. I have known middle class white girls who thought getting pregnant would be cool....like my 13 year old niece.

[editted to add: The urban institute's breakdown of familial living arrangements supports my belief that this notion of single motherhood is unique to african americans when it shows the striking disparity in the percentage of homes with no paternal involvement. The numbers you provided showing birth rates among single hispanics do not reveal whether or not there is any paternal support or involvement, they simply indicate whether the girl was married at the time of child birth. The Urban institute study answers the question of whether or not these unwed births involve the father in the mother/child's life or not. To a much greater degree than any other racial group, the african american births to unwed teens do not. this makes this group distinct/unique.]

I think that without the bigger picture of the social issues unique to the urban black communities, the paper fails. I don't remember it discussing the age disparities, prison rate, number of partners (maybe they don't know who the father is even?), welfare benefits limitations or reasons WHY these girls might CHOOSE to not involve the father. Unique circumstances will lead to unique statistics, wouldn't you agree?

I will re-read it, I just thought it was way too limited in scope to draw the conclusions you have. So while it answers one question, it does not address the myriad of others raised by the findings.

Well I am not a politician or a church goer so I don't know who I would be trying to earn brownie points from.

I don't either, I saw it within my Executive Women's Association, workplace volunteerism, and just within social circles and neighborhoods.

[dave_a]

I never said there wasn't. So yes, I agree there are some teens who get pregnant because it's cool. What I don't agree with, is that it is an exclusively black phenomena though. I have known middle class white girls who thought getting pregnant would be cool....like my 13 year old niece.

Ok, thanks for saying that. I also don't think it's exclusively a black phenomenon. I think that the rate at which it occurs for blacks is so far higher than it is for other ethnic groups that it is identifiable as a subculture though. That is the point of the urban institute paper (from my perspective in this discussion). Yes, it doesn't examine everything, that is for certain. But the CDC stats on single mother births don't either. I believe the 2 complement each other and reveal a more complete, but certainly not fully complete picture.

I believe the CDC numbers reveal that births to unwed mothers occur among all racial groups, but not necessarily in equal percentages. What the Urban Institute paper adds to the equation is the type of familial arrangements these single mothers have.

Look at it like this. From the point of view of the CDC stats a woman who has a boyfriend, gets pregnant, has the baby and a day later gets married to the father is listed in the single mother birth column. All those figures look at is whether or not the woman was married at the time she gave birth. The Urban Institute looks at what familial arrangements those women who gave birth when not married actually have with the father of the child. This is where uniqueness for african americans comes in. To a far greater extent than whites or hispanics, african american single moms live in arrangements where the biological father plays no role whatsoever at any point in the child's life. Yes, we can discuss the sociological/economic factors responsible for this, but my point in saying that this phenomenon as a subculture is unique to African Americans, I believe, is established by the familial living arrangements examined by the urban institute.

Do you agree that my conclusion is valid or no?


I think that without the bigger picture of the social issues unique to the urban black communities, the paper fails. I don't remember it discussing the age disparities, prison rate, number of partners (maybe they don't know who the father is even?) or reasons WHY these girls might CHOOSE to not involve the father. Unique circumstances will lead to unique statistics, wouldn't you agree?

Of course. I am willing to discuss the social issues with you if you would like to (although i am certainly no expert), I just wanted to nail things down on the previous issues first is all.