Okay, I'll just up and ask...

[Goliath]

...do you people have a problem with my hatred of xianity? Is that the reason why I'm nearly constantly attacked here?

[Dingfod]

Do you really want an honest critique from a fairly disinterested third party that has never jumped on you about it? Or will you get defensive about even that?

[Goliath]

I don't believe I've ever gotten overly defensive (unless by "defensive" you mean "defending onesself against several flamers at once").

And yes, I'm interested in an answer to the question in my OP. Otherwise, I would never have created this thread.

[Dingfod]

I'm pondering how to respond without seeming too critical, mainly because I've got a bit of a problem myself with taking things personally. Anyway, here goes.

Goliath, I respect you in many ways, but I think you really are a bit thin-skinned sometimes. Sometimes I think you perceive flames when they are really not and then respond aggressively in reply, which then does turn into a flame fest. I'm not even going to get into specifics because your anti-Christian stance, which doesn't bother me in the least, isn't the problem as I see it, it's how you respond to critics.

Flame on, my friend.

[Goliath]

No flames necessary. Thank you for the candid response, Warren.

Anyone else?

[livius drusus]

Your hostility to religion sickens me. The only reason it doesn't ruin and degrade discourse in every thread it touches is because people like Helen respond to you reasonably when they would be well within their rights to tell you to take your attitude and fuck right off.

Fear of your vitrolic reaction is one of the things that makes me reluctant to start threads about things like religious art and imagery because even if I just ignore your crap, it's sure to draw enough attention to create a substantial secondary discussion all about you and your issues.

As for your shitty attitude towards religion being the reason you're "constantly attacked around here", I dispute that you are. Were you attacked when you asked for recipes? Were you attacked when you talked about math? I don't think so. People take you on when you're being a dick, and it just so happens that you are always, 100% of the time, a dick when you talk about religion.

[HelenM]

...do you people have a problem with my hatred of xianity? Is that the reason why I'm nearly constantly attacked here?

If someone disagrees with you, do you consider that an attack?

Helen

[Farren]

Goliath,

the times I've been taken aback by your postings have all been threads where an innocuous or lightweight comment was met with either and inexplicable or at least inappropriate (as in, nuking a country for insulting your president inappropriate) response.

The most recent example that comes to mind is on the "Travelin' Jones" thread, where JoeP wrote

Why do so few of you include Africa in your dream destinations? Is it because of the wars, AIDS, malaria, yellow fever, lack of infrastructure (roads, airports), and crime? Chickens. (And I don't mean that in a complementary way, Livius.)

and you responded



Those are some of the reasons, yes. Africa seems like a wonderful place to go...to die.


Chickens.

Grow up. This isn't an elementary school playground, and humans are creatures of sufficient complexity so as to not automatically do something because of a lack of fear of doing said thing.

WTF? The entire thread was lighthearted and Joe clearly wasn't really trying to sway people to come to Africa using playground psychology. He was throwing in a child-like turn of phrase the way 35-year old's sometimes wink and stick their tongue out at friends.

By way of reply, you basically insulted the entire continent we both live on and told Joe P in no uncertain terms you thought he was immature.

Its stuff like that that really throws me sometimes, Goliath.

[Goliath]

Your hostility to religion sickens me.

I'm sorry to hear that. I honestly am. But my hostility to religion isn't going to go away anytime soon.



Fear of your vitrolic reaction



You honestly fear my reactions to things?

Fuck. You've given me a lot to think about. Maybe I should've left, after all.



As for your shitty attitude towards religion being the reason you're "constantly attacked around here", I dispute that you are.



You're correct in that I'm not "constantly attacked". That's why I edited to say "nearly constantly attacked". When I came here, this place was fun. Now it's just battle after battle after battle.

What happened? That's what I'm trying to figure out.


People take you on when you're being a dick, and it just so happens that you are always, 100% of the time, a dick when you talk about religion.

Again, I'm sorry you feel that way, but my hatred of xianity is a part of me, and it's something that I can't just jettison at will.

[D. Scarlatti]

When I came here, this place was fun. Now it's just battle after battle after battle.

Wouldn't those perceptions be entirely up to you?

[HelenM]

Your hostility to religion sickens me.

I'm sorry to hear that. I honestly am. But my hostility to religion isn't going to go away anytime soon.

[...]

Again, I'm sorry you feel that way, but my hatred of xianity is a part of me, and it's something that I can't just jettison at will.

I think it is responding with hostility to other posters here that causes battles - I am using your word - rather than your hostility towards Christianity

Helen

[Goliath]

...do you people have a problem with my hatred of xianity? Is that the reason why I'm nearly constantly attacked here?

If someone disagrees with you, do you consider that an attack?

Helen

No.

[Socratoad]

I don't think that I have ever crossed swords with you, so to speak, but when you or anyone throws about the word "hate" with such abandon, then immediately every sense within my body is on guard.

"Hate" is perhaps the most destructive emotion, for those that abandon themselves to hate are no longer able to discuss any subject with a degree of rationality. Plus, have you ever stopped to think of just how self-destructive, both emotionally and physically hating really is. And just how destructive it can be to inter-personal relations, both here on the board and in your everyday life. Methinks you must be a very unhappy person. :(

[Goliath]

WTF? The entire thread was lighthearted and Joe clearly wasn't really trying to sway people to come to Africa using playground psychology.


Then why would he call me a chicken for not wanting to go there? If he was being facetious, it certainly wasn't obvious to me.



By way of reply, you basically insulted the entire continent we both live on and told Joe P in no uncertain terms you thought he was immature.



So my not wanting to go to your continent is an insult to your continent?

[Goliath]

Wouldn't those perceptions be entirely up to you?

Not entirely, no.

[Goliath]

I think it is responding with hostility to other posters here that causes battles


I have never had a hostile thought about any posters here that haven't attacked me, and any hostility that I've expressed was in response to attacks.

[Dingfod]

But, regardless of perception, how you respond to it is entirely up to you, entirely.

[Goliath]

I don't think that I have ever crossed swords with you, so to speak,


No, not that I recall, either.


"Hate" is perhaps the most destructive emotion, for those that abandon themselves to hate are no longer able to discuss any subject with a degree of rationality.


I haven't abandoned myself to anything.


Plus, have you ever stopped to think of just how self-destructive, both emotionally and physically hating really is.


I don't find my hatred of xianity to be self-destructive. A bit taxing at times, but not self-destructive. There are times when I wish I didn't hate xianity, to be honest, but I doubt that'll ever happen.


Methinks you must be a very unhappy person. :(

Well, I could be happier (couldn't everyone, to be honest?) but I'm generally doing okay. My largest source of emotional turmoil lately has been the constant bickering on this board.

[Goliath]

But, regardless of perception, how you respond to it is entirely up to you, entirely.

I'm not sure I buy this, either. Sure, some reactions are voluntary, but it seems as though some reactions are involuntary. For example, if you're driving and you see a kid run in front of your car, you generally hit the brakes as a reflex reaction. That's a response that really wasn't up to you.

Similarly, when attacked (verbally or physically), I defend myself (or retreat to a position where I can defend myself).

[livius drusus]

I'm sorry to hear that. I honestly am. But my hostility to religion isn't going to go away anytime soon.

Sigh... Look, Goliath, you can cherish your hostility as a part of yourself for as long as you wish and it wouldn't matter to me if it weren't for your nearly constant expression of it as surly, confrontational posts in threads that would otherwise be discussions, not battles.


You honestly fear my reactions to things?

Of course I do. It takes me a long time to write, and the kinds of posts I'm talking about would be attempts to share my love of art or history. The thought of seeing them turn into played out, unnuaced fights of religion = bad makes my tummy hurt. You know how much I hate that kind of thing; the effort I'd have to expend to keep such threads on a positive note would be enormous and yes, I fear it.

Fuck. You've given me a lot to think about. Maybe I should've left, after all.

I just don't understand why it has to be all or nothing. I once asked you if every chance was a good one to bash Christianity and your answer was most of them. What would you have to lose by just letting people who want to discuss issues without that sort of hostility do their thing? We don't even have all that many threads about religion. Do you have to express your hatred in all of them?

[beyelzu]

Goliath, I despise lots of xianity and I dont have the same problems as you do. As I have said before, I think that the fact that you generally dont use conotations makes it difficult to converse with you at times.

On the subject of xianity, you and I actually agree some of the time, I dont think the problem is the inital premises(sp?) we both start out with. I dont view online debates/conversations as battles most of the time and I am open to change, I think that is one of the big differences between us and also it is the thing that makes it possible for me to hold a similar view to your's and still have a reasonable conversation with someone who holds the opposite views.


Often, it seems to me, that you are more interested in scoring points then exchanging ideas. I would also like to point out that the theists on this board and some of the ones at II have done more to make me respect xianity than any interactions I have had irl.

[beyelzu]

Of course I do. It takes me a long time to write, and the kinds of posts I'm talking about would be attempts to share my love of art or history. The thought of seeing them turn into played out, unnuaced fights of religion = bad makes my tummy hurt.

I for one am really looking forward to those upcoming threads. Can we get a teaser to tide us over??

[seebs]

Hmm. Not a reason for me to pick fights. I would be fascinated to learn more about this, find out what the history is, but... I dunno. I guess, there's enough things out there marketed under the name "Christianity" that I hate too that it's hard for me to take it too badly.

[Dingfod]

But, regardless of perception, how you respond to it is entirely up to you, entirely.

I'm not sure I buy this, either. Sure, some reactions are voluntary, but it seems as though some reactions are involuntary. For example, if you're driving and you see a kid run in front of your car, you generally hit the brakes as a reflex reaction. That's a response that really wasn't up to you.

Similarly, when attacked (verbally or physically), I defend myself (or retreat to a position where I can defend myself).That is a bad analogy. Posting on a message board never requires reflex action, you have a few seconds, a few minutes, a few hours, or even a few days or even weeks, plenty of time for a measured and tempered response. You are 100% responsible for how you respond to what you perceive as an attack (which in my view, are not always attacks).

[JoeP]

WTF? The entire thread was lighthearted and Joe clearly wasn't really trying to sway people to come to Africa using playground psychology.


Then why would he call me a chicken for not wanting to go there? If he was being facetious, it certainly wasn't obvious to me.
It was facetious. In fact, it was a joke. I seriously did not expect that anyone would even have to think about it, let alone actually take it as a criticism. But it seems that you did, and were offended. I put it to you, beyond a reasonable doubt, that this shows you as thin-skinned. Note that even this is not a criticism, it's a statement of concern, and a statement that I think you need to see the solution in looking after yourself and reassessing your reactions, not in the people you're conversing with having to change.


By way of reply, you basically insulted the entire continent we both live on and told Joe P in no uncertain terms you thought he was immature.



So my not wanting to go to your continent is an insult to your continent?
No, implying I'm immature is an insult to me. I need to re-read the thread to see if I agree with Farren that you insulted the continent - but I did get the feeling of arbitrary rejection.

Goliath, it doesn't have to be this way. The confrontational nature of these threads can change.

joe

[JoeP]

And with that, I have to leave the net and commute and go out to dinner and sleep and sit all day tomorrow in a (potentially stupid) workshop. Any appearance of unresponsiveness from me is regretted. :D

[Nil Desperandum]

But, regardless of perception, how you respond to it is entirely up to you, entirely.

I'm not sure I buy this, either. Sure, some reactions are voluntary, but it seems as though some reactions are involuntary. For example, if you're driving and you see a kid run in front of your car, you generally hit the brakes as a reflex reaction. That's a response that really wasn't up to you.

Similarly, when attacked (verbally or physically), I defend myself (or retreat to a position where I can defend myself).
I can see where Goliath is going with this one, in terms of this last sentence there. I have similar reactions by which I read something on a message board, and I find myself hitting the quote button and attacking my keyboard. My anger literally causes both of my arms to tingle, and I can feel my hands vibrating, like I'm shaking. THAT reaction is my knee-jerk reaction. I cannot control it. It is near fucking impossible for me to stay my nerves, because they are quite literally vibrating at a higher frequency than my body can handle.

I think, perhaps, that Goliath finds himself in a similar situation. I agree with the statement of you having plenty of time to make your posts, to edit them. I get into many a "battle" myself because of how combative/in-your-face I am, on message boards, and I've found that over time, I've learned to keep my hand away from quoting people. I stop. I look down at my lap. Anything to calm myself down.

Perceived attacks or no, Goliath, I think that you have a willingness to see things as being purposely directed towards yourself. Any amount of this perception can quickly add up to many people attacking you. It may in fact be the case that others feel extremely threatened by what you consider to be simple statement of fact, or emotion.

My only suggestion, as stated, is that while I respect your right to feel the way you do, as they are your emotions to own, consideration of how your words will have an effect on others, whether you wish there to be an effect or not, might in fact help you out here.

I have not gotten into it with you, but I understand livius' comment about her tummy hurting. That almost made me cry, and only because I live with a constant anxiety pang, that I've learned to squelch, through years of sedating that fear.

My hope is that this affect will have little place here, because I understand it so well.

I admire most of the people on this board for their courage. Much as, on other boards I frequent, I keep them "honest," this board keeps me honest, and challenges me.

I think you'll find amazing growth working through this, if you are willing to. I know you have much to offer, as do all of you amazing people...

Stay, learn, grow. Please?

Chris

[Goliath]

You people confuse the ever living fuck out of me. One moment, you're warm, friendly and nice.

The next, you all attack me practically in unison.

[Nil Desperandum]

Goliath, is there anything in particular I said? I practically feel in your shoes, I hope something I said meant something to you.

Chris

[SharonDee]

You people confuse the ever living fuck out of me. One moment, you're warm, friendly and nice.

The next, you all attack me practically in unison.
Wah. Suck it up, ya baby. :glare:

See the above? That's what I always, always have to prevent myself from typing when you or someone else acts like this. This is the first time I have actually gone ahead and done it. I've wondered what it feels like to say something mean and insensitive and then when called on it say, "Oh, but that's just how I am. I can't control how it makes me react."

You asked people to answer your questions, Goliath. Don't piss and moan when they oblige you.

[livius drusus]

I don't see any post on this thread as an attack. Quite the opposite, in fact: they're genuine and heartfelt explanations of how you've come across to people in a variety of circumstances.

I just don't understand, Goliath. I thought this thread was an attempt to sort out where the miscommunications and hurt feelings come from, not just the ones you feel you've been a victim of, but also the ones other people feel you've caused them. I thought it was a really good thread and something that would be helpful to all of us.

Nil's post was great, as were the ones from everyone else. The least productive post in this thread was my first one, imo, because I'm so tied up in knots over this shit, and you answered it calmly. I just don't understand how you could see anything else in this thread as an attack instead of self-expression. Self-expression I thought you were specifically soliciting in your OP.

Finally, I wish you would stop saying "you people" as if we were some school of fish who move in perfect synchronization. Like all generalizations, it is inaccurate and frequently insulting.

[Goliath]

Well, that did it. You guys screwed up. You accidentally let me know (in no uncertain terms) that I actually am not welcome here. The facade has ended.

So be it. Please delete my account.

[beyelzu]

Well, that did it. You guys screwed up. You accidentally let me know (in no uncertain terms) that I actually am not welcome here. The facade has ended.

So be it. Please delete my account.
what the fuck?

[Nil Desperandum]

Goliath:

You want your empirical verification, then here it is:

In my one and only post to you, and perhaps my last, you not only ignored any positive comments that I had to say, but you then proceeded to say that the manner in which I spoke to you verifies the perception that you are not wanted here.

If I wasn't to be included in "you guys," perhaps it would have been prudent to directly comment towards me.

As it stands, my emotions are not to be wasted, and I sincerely meant what I said. Even said I'm practically the same in reaction.

How can you argue with your logic, Goliath?

If you want to leave, you do not need our permission to go. Just slip into the shadows and walk away. It would probably be easier on your intellect to simple let go than to try and really understand that which you refuse to understand.

chris

[livius drusus]

Well, that did it. You guys screwed up. You accidentally let me know (in no uncertain terms) that I actually am not welcome here. The facade has ended.

It's sad that your sole reaction to the honest and generous self-expression in this thread is to call it an attack and twist it into some vicious rejection of your being. Given your own sensitivity to perceived attack, I would think you would care to be more cautious in your own approach to others. Obviously you don't, however, and it saddens me deeply.

So be it. Please delete my account.

We don't delete accounts here because that would result in the removal of all your posts which is contrary to our Post Ownership and Editing Policy (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=135&postcount=2). If you wish to leave, you will have to do it the old fashioned way.

[Roland98]

Well, that did it. You guys screwed up. You accidentally let me know (in no uncertain terms) that I actually am not welcome here. The facade has ended.

So be it. Please delete my account.

Goliath, I've been through almost this exact same thing with you before. :( Since then, I've seen you really show others how much fun you can be, and show a different side of your personality than you often showed on IIDB. Please don't let it come to this again.

[Farren]

Goliath,

I have a friend who has had serious aggression issues for the last, oh, 20 years I've known him. Takes things too personally and turns perfectly friendly discussions into wars from time to time. He's mellowed quite a lot but he still manages to really piss people off on a regular basis.

The point is we're still good friends. I value his input because he's a very smart guy with a good heart and is very sincere in his dealings with people, which is a rare quality even if he can't control his temper sometimes.

On the thread I mentioned nobody called you on something I believe was plain to a lot of people because of that same kind of "Oh crap, there goes his temper again, but he's an OK guy" kind of respect coupled with a perception that you miss connotation and lose your cool too easily.

You asked us to communicate whatever gripes we may have and we did. Does that mean we hate you? No. When you're not flipping out over trivia I have no antipathy towards you whatsoever and when you are I've generally gotten into the habit of breathing deeply and walking away. I suspect others here have the same response.

Doesn't it for a moment strike you as odd that despite the fact that others here share some of your personal dislikes and likes they somehow navigate the rocky shores of BB protocol without shipwrecks at every turn of the coast? What compelling reason do I have to believe that its somehow about Liv, or vm or Dantonac or Belyelzu or Nil Desperadum or SharonD or me when none of us are the foci of such catastrophes?

Its not about what you believe to be true, its about your refusal to even consider opposing views, your refusal to be diplomatic in how you communicate your own, your incessant assumption of the worst possible intent in every bit of lighthearted mockery and your stubborn refusal to ever, ever, admit fault.

We all get into head-on-head collisions at some point but if you dig through this board and HH and IIDB you'll find that every one of the people mentioned have apologised, retreated, begged indulgence for their misinterpretation and so on, on many, many occasions. I'm hard pressed to think of any occasion when I've even seen you say "Hmm, perhaps I was wrong".

I'm sorry if this post is tactless. I'm not annoyed or angry as I write this. I'm writing it out of the realisation that no-one else can repair the issues you have with people here or on any other board except you - and you don't appear willing to do that, so I might as well stop trying to be diplomatic (I actually edited my first post a few times to try say what I wanted to say without being too offensive) and just lay it on the line.

I know there are other people here who may flinch when they read stuff like this but as far as I'm concerned, if you want to leave the door is open. I'm not encouraging you to go but I personally will make no effort to stop you and I believe anyone else's effort will be wasted unless you're willing to take a critical look at your own manner of interacting with people online.

I reiterate this is not said out of anger. I've made the same kinds of statements to the friend I mentioned at the outset of this post and he has quit my social space a number of times but come back, without need for recrimination and apology.

In the same fashion, if you were to choose to stay and engaged in an uncontroversial fashion in some thread I was particpating in I would engage you with respect and good humour.

I'm just not going to bother with pussyfooting around what I perceive to be as the truth any more, which is that a person who generally attracts trouble from those who don't generally attract trouble from others is the most likely cause of their own misfortune.

[Goliath]

Well, that did it. You guys screwed up. You accidentally let me know (in no uncertain terms) that I actually am not welcome here. The facade has ended.

So be it. Please delete my account.

Goliath, I've been through almost this exact same thing with you before. :( Since then, I've seen you really show others how much fun you can be, and show a different side of your personality than you often showed on IIDB. Please don't let it come to this again.

Don't. Please, fucking don't.

Leaving is heartbreaking enough*, why are you making it harder on me?

* - Despite being called a baby and practically being called an idiot right around the time that I realized that I was unwelcome here.

[Dingfod]

* - Despite being called a baby and practically being called an idiot right around the time that I realized that I was unwelcome here.Excuse my ignorance, would you provide a cite, please. I want to see where you say someone called you a baby or practically called you an idiot. If you can do that, maybe we can get down to brass tacks on the difference between the way you see comments than the rest of us do. Just trying to help, man.

[Goliath]

* - Despite being called a baby and practically being called an idiot right around the time that I realized that I was unwelcome here.Excuse my ignorance, would you provide a cite, please. I want to see where you say someone called you a baby or practically called you an idiot. If you can do that, maybe we can get down to brass tacks on the difference between the way you see comments than the rest of us do. Just trying to help, man.

I really don't know what the point would be. The attacks would just continue.

[Ex-zombie]

Goliath,

Come on, man, don't go.

Your posts are intelligent, insightful, and sometimes gut bustingly funny.

I refuse to give you any ammunition to use as an excuse to leave this forum.

[Dingfod]

I really don't know what the point would be. The attacks would just continue.Like they are right now?

[seebs]

Here's my thinking. I think you have aggression issues. I don't know exactly how to deal with them, but I think you should deal with them, because you will be happier if you do. Maybe this will sound like an attack. I don't mean it as one. Yeah, I'm saying there's something "wrong" with you. There's things wrong with all of us. I'm not saying you're a bad person; I'm saying you're a person who seems to have a problem.

As others have pointed out, you are a wonderful contributor when you're not suddenly freaking out. You're one of my favorite posters. You're damn smart, and you're often very, very, funny.

I don't know what to suggest. Counseling is one obvious thing. A lot of people see it as a Bad Thing to be told they need counseling, but having tried it (spent a year or so in marriage counseling), I have to say, if you can get a competent counselor, it is a wonderful thing.

The human brain is not perfect. It generally has bugs. Learning to recognize and work around those bugs is very useful, and can be a fair amount of work. It is also, I think, ultimately work it.

Note that saying you have anger "issues" doesn't mean "every time Goliath is angry, it's because he's broken". It doesn't mean you're "making it all up". People are sometimes jerks to you. The question is also partially one of how it is best to react to these things. People here have been jerks to me in the past, as have people at IIDB, CF, C+F, Ebla, and pretty much any other board I hang out on. It happens. I don't necessarily care. Sometimes I get hurt, but I've found that reacting calmly, and trying to reach past the conflict to the person, sometimes has better results.

[Goliath]

I really don't know what the point would be. The attacks would just continue.Like they are right now?

Merely an eye of the proverbial storm. Before you know it, SharonDee will be back trying to put diapers on me. :rolleye1:

[Goliath]

Maybe you're right, seebs. Maybe it's time that I looked into counseling, after all.

The love-hate relationship that I have with this forum and with you people needs to change, though...something's got to give.

Of course, what the fuck do I know, I'm just a bigot who will never listen to what anyone else says...isn't that right, Farren? Beyelzu?

[Dingfod]

Merely an eye of the proverbial storm. Before you know it, SharonDee will be back trying to put diapers on me. :rolleye1:I wish she'd diaper me and then... [/sick mode off]

Yeah, she might... if you keep this up. Hers is exactly the kind of post that you would benefit most by just shrugging off.

There have been times I've received criticism, usually invited by my own comments, that have hurt. Rather than coming back with insults of my own, those hard-hitting comments would make me feel the need to leave or to step back and take a breather for a while, most especially when I was depressed (pre-Zoloft). Perhaps if the world wide web had been around when I was your age, I would've been just like you. It could be that age has mellowed me a little bit. Perhaps it will be the same for you, I don't know.

I wish you the best Goliath, you do what you have to do.

[livius drusus]

Quote one person on this thread who called you a bigot who will never listen to what anyone else says. One person. When you fail to do that, I expect you will apologize to beyelzu and Farren for stuffing words in their mouth.

[Socratoad]

What the FUCK, Goliath, you need some serious help. I've sat by while others have poured their hearts out, trying to reach out to you, and yet you seem unable to respond at this time with little more than with kicks in the teeth ....... there has to be much more hurting you than is readily apparent.

Either get some help elsewhere or let those here who are willing to help, including myself help.

Alas all I see at the moment is an unspecified cry for help manifested by petulance and untrue accusations

[Scotty]

Goliath:

I feel as if you wanted to find a reason to leave the discussion board.

As if, at this moment you wanted to push people to tell you that you aren't good enough, or that you have problems, so that you can justify an action. Maybe even justify a feeling of rejection.

Maybe you didn't feel that way when originally posting, but it is the impression that I have gotten from reading your responses.

I have not noticed that people here have told you to leave, or to stop posting.

So, you don't feel welcome by some people, which I think you will find anywhere, but not everybody feels the same way.

You have the people that post the most, and the ones that you see the most of, making comments and maybe you feel that they are the most important voice. I don't know, maybe they are, I don't keep track.

As for the, for lack of a better word, conflict that you seem to feel follows you, it is because you have strong opinions, and you stick by them. You can have opinions, maybe even unreasonable ones to some people, and you should voice them, but not take offense when people disagree with you, because, you know they will.

Does that mean you aren't welcome? Hmm, good question. I suppose what it means is that given a certain topic some people will want to butt heads with you, and they will continue to do that as long as you hold an opinion they don't agree with, until you can convince them otherwise (or they you).

Do you think that the people that disagree with you are trying to convince you you are wrong? Or, are they trying to get you to be tolerant of differing opinions?

My personal opinion is that you might need a little time away, just to recharge

-Scott

[Goliath]

Quote one person on this thread who called you a bigot who will never listen to what anyone else says. One person. When you fail to do that, I expect you will apologize to beyelzu and Farren for stuffing words in their mouth.

I should not have used the word "bigot", and for that, I apologize.

However, both of them have told me that I do not listen to what others have to say:


its about your refusal to even consider opposing views



I am open to change, I think that is one of the big differences between us

[AspenMama]

Goliath-- If you are still soliciting opinions and advice---Down and dirty---

You are quick to take insult where none is intended. Why not strive to give people the benefit of the doubt-- meaning always assume good intentions? Take criticism in stride-- if you screw up, admit it, apologize, move on-- if you didn't screw up-- concede it is only someone else's opinion and forget about it, or defend without insult. This is how I survive at work and how I survived as a moderator.

I won't bring up past issues here--except to say that when you returned a while back to the Heathen Hangout and offered your apologies for past wrongs-- I was very pleased to think that you had changed and truly wanted to be a part of this community. Don't let anger and perceived wrong ruin your life-- not everyone is out to get ya-- we're all too busy with our own little worlds.

[Nil Desperandum]

See, here is the nail in the coffin:

I said nothing that be even be misconstrued as something that is negative. There was nothing bad to say, and I even equated my behavior to his.

Rather than focus on ANYTHING constructive I had to say, he naysays and predicts the future of this thread, completely ignoring my post.

I won't take it personally, but why would I be surprised when your replies are all negative, pessimistic, that you would refuse to listen to other people that have things, CONSTRUCTIVE THINGS, to say to you.

You may need a pick-me-up, a reason to stay here, and everyone has those validations. I need it too!

But what makes you deserving of the effort I am going to put forth, to help you out, when you won't return the favor?

There should be some flow of equality here. If you are putting out more negative energy than positive energy, why are you suprised when you get equally negative energy straight back at you?

Chris

[Nil Desperandum]

However, both of them have told me that I do not listen to what others have to say:


its about your refusal to even consider opposing views



I am open to change, I think that is one of the big differences between us


Is it anywhere near a possibility that there is some truth to what they say? Really. Just consider it, Goliath. I don't KNOW YOU. Ok? Listen! I do not know who you are. I don't know if what they say is true.

All I am asking is for you consider whether or not there is any truth to what they say, all defense mechanisms aside.

Chris

[Goliath]

I've sat by while others have poured their hearts out, trying to reach out to you,


All the while ignoring those who have used this thread to take further pot-shots at me.



Either get some help elsewhere or let those here who are willing to help, including myself help.



Fine: What would you have me do?

[Dingfod]

Nobody has asked you to leave or said they want you to leave. I have only one more thing to say. Stick around, if for no other reason to be a pain in the ass, it can be fun and personally rewarding. :D

[beyelzu]

Quote one person on this thread who called you a bigot who will never listen to what anyone else says. One person. When you fail to do that, I expect you will apologize to beyelzu and Farren for stuffing words in their mouth.

I should not have used the word "bigot", and for that, I apologize.

However, both of them have told me that I do not listen to what others have to say:


its about your refusal to even consider opposing views



I am open to change, I think that is one of the big differences between us



bullshit, I implied that you were not open to change, I said fuck all about you listening to others, so you can apologize to me now.

[livius drusus]

However, both of them have told me that I do not listen to what others have to say:

You said they told you will never listen, not that you don't listen; the two things are vastly different. Again, stuffing words - in this case a prediction of the future which does not exist in their posts - into their mouths.

[Nil Desperandum]

I've sat by while others have poured their hearts out, trying to reach out to you,


All the while ignoring those who have used this thread to take further pot-shots at me.
Goliath, I don't know you, I don't know your beef with other people, or their beef with you. I didn't conveniently ignore, for their benefit, and not yours, the "pot-shots" they have taken at you. My intent in this thread isn't to simply help you win an argument or gain favor over other people in this forum, but when you directly ask for people to analyse your behavior, and react accordingly, it should not come as a surprise that not everyone is going to say something 100% favorable, or agreeable, to your position.

If you were truly interested in growth, in my opinion, you would take everything to mind, "good" or "bad."

[Goliath]

bullshit, I implied that you were not open to change, I said fuck all about you listening to others, so you can apologize to me now.

But if I'm allegedly not open to change, then my mind is not open to listening to and considering the views of others.

So, fuck off. You'll get no apology from me for that (but you are about to get an apology for another reason in my next post....<grumble, grumble>).

[Goliath]

You said they told you will never listen, not that you don't listen; the two things are vastly different.

You're right. I apologize. I should've said that Farren and Beyelzu have accused me of not listening to others.

Of course, the fact that I have listened to you, liv, in this thread shows that they are demonstrably wrong.

[Nil Desperandum]

"But if I'm allegedly not open to change, then my mind is not open to the views of others."

Your mind can be open to other people's views, Goliath. That doesn't mean you HAVE to change or suddenly adopt their views as your own.

Chris

EDIT: While listening to ONE person may in fact demonstrably prove that you in fact DO listen, in all practicality, if you only listen to one person out of 50, how much listening are you doing to really be an effective listener? Or to be labeled as such? I stole once, so I guess, technically, I'm a thief. But I think it is demonstrably different between stealing once, and being a kleptomaniac. <~~~ DOH!

[Goliath]

"But if I'm allegedly not open to change, then my mind is not open to the views of others."

Your mind can be open to other people's views, Goliath. That doesn't mean you HAVE to change or suddenly adopt their views as your own.

Chris

Hence the edit.

[beyelzu]

bullshit, I implied that you were not open to change, I said fuck all about you listening to others, so you can apologize to me now.

But if I'm allegedly not open to change, then my mind is not open to listening to and considering the views of others.

So, fuck off. You'll get no apology from me for that (but you are about to get an apology for another reason in my next post....<grumble, grumble>).

you claim that you deal with cold hard denotations, so I didnt say what you told me to say.

now you come up with some implications of what I said and claim that I said that,

whatever, I am done until I get that apology

[Nil Desperandum]

"But if I'm allegedly not open to change, then my mind is not open to the views of others."

Your mind can be open to other people's views, Goliath. That doesn't mean you HAVE to change or suddenly adopt their views as your own.

Chris

Hence the edit.
:) :) :)

[Goliath]

whatever, I am done until I get that apology

Don't hold your breath.

[Goliath]

"But if I'm allegedly not open to change, then my mind is not open to the views of others."

Your mind can be open to other people's views, Goliath. That doesn't mean you HAVE to change or suddenly adopt their views as your own.

Chris

Hence the edit.
:) :) :)

I'm glad that I've made someone in this thread smile (except to laugh at and ridicule me, of course).

I was beginning to feel like I was in Jr. High School again.

[Nil Desperandum]

I should perhaps major in Psychology.

[seebs]

Maybe you're right, seebs. Maybe it's time that I looked into counseling, after all.

I would recommend it. You're unhappy; there are people who specialize in fixing this.

The love-hate relationship that I have with this forum and with you people needs to change, though...something's got to give.

Indeed. I hope you are able to find peace somehow. Perhaps counseling can help. It is unlikely to hurt. (Although I will go out on a limb and suggest that you do not want to seek a "Christian counselor".)

[Goliath]

I would recommend it. You're unhappy;


Well, not in general...lately usually only while I'm on this board. It's been kind of strange, students have been popping in and out of my office all afternoon, so I've been on a bit of an emotional roller-coaster.



Although I will go out on a limb and suggest that you do not want to seek a "Christian counselor".

LOL. Don't worry, I won't.

[Dingfod]

I'm done.

[Goliath]

EDIT: While listening to ONE person may in fact demonstrably prove that you in fact DO listen,


It does. It shows that I am willing to listen. If I am not, then I wouldn't listen to anyone. Listening to one person is all that's necessary to negate the statement "You don't listen to others."

[Goliath]

I'm done.

Thank you for your input, Warren.

Although I wonder why I should stick around just to be a pain in the ass...I seem to cause enough strife and damage around here by trying not to do that. I shudder to think what would happen if I were to intentionally try to hurt people.

[Goliath]

As if, at this moment you wanted to push people to tell you that you aren't good enough, or that you have problems, so that you can justify an action. Maybe even justify a feeling of rejection.


That is, quite honestly, the most retartedly absurd idea I've heard in at least several months.


As for the, for lack of a better word, conflict that you seem to feel follows you, it is because you have strong opinions, and you stick by them. You can have opinions, maybe even unreasonable ones to some people, and you should voice them, but not take offense when people disagree with you, because, you know they will.


It is not simple disagreement that is the problem.



Do you think that the people that disagree with you are trying to convince you you are wrong? Or, are they trying to get you to be tolerant of differing opinions?



I don't know.

[Nil Desperandum]

EDIT: While listening to ONE person may in fact demonstrably prove that you in fact DO listen,


It does. It shows that I am willing to listen. If I am not, then I wouldn't listen to anyone. Listening to one person is all that's necessary to negate the statement "You don't listen to others."

Perhaps if you realized that "You don't listen to others." really means, "You do not listen to very many people, most especially if their opinion or voice doesn't match up with yours."

Rarely does any declarative statement using "never, ever, always," or those other qualifiers, actually means that is the way things are.

Does Goliath listen? Arguably so. Do you listen to those who agree with you more often than those whose opinion differs from yours? Perhaps. Does listening to one person out of 100 help you out? Perhaps not.

It's up for you to decide what you will listen to, but I can guarantee,that if all you want is to argue semantics and see the things to prove wrong, then you will more than likely spend more time arguing about semantics and proving others wrong, than trying to "listen" to what they have to say.

Chris

[Goliath]

Perhaps if you realized that "You don't listen to others." really means, "You do not listen to very many people, most especially if their opinion or voice doesn't match up with yours."


But that's not what it means.

Farren, beyelzu, is the above what you meant to say?



Rarely does any declarative statement using "never, ever, always," or those other qualifiers, actually means that is the way things are.



:? Then why do such qualifiers exist?

[Nil Desperandum]

As if, at this moment you wanted to push people to tell you that you aren't good enough, or that you have problems, so that you can justify an action. Maybe even justify a feeling of rejection.


That is, quite honestly, the most retartedly absurd idea I've heard in at least several months.

It isn't retardedly absurd. Some people constantly seek out abusive relationships, to justify their own lack of feeling of self-worth. Whether this abuse be emotional, physical, or mental, it is abuse nonetheless, and whether or not you participate in said behavior, or do not understand it, doesn't mean it isn't justifiable in their own eyes.

Scotty's point, and correct me if I am wrong, was to suggest that, in your angst with the board, you wanted to see people acting the exact way that justifies your position, and then upon seeing what you always see, leave the board saying, "See? I TOLD you this shit happens."

[dave_a]

It does. It shows that I am willing to listen. If I am not, then I wouldn't listen to anyone. Listening to one person is all that's necessary to negate the statement "You don't listen to others."

Assuming the maker of the statement meant "You never, under any circumstances, at any time listen to anyone at all" then you would be correct.

If the maker of the statement was speaking in a more common manner and it meant "I have noticed you don't always listen to people" then it doesn't negate the truth value' of the statement.

In other words I think you are taking the statement in a hyperliteral fashion and I suspect it doesn't deserve to be treated that way because it isn't how most people speak.

So it appears to me that you have gotten upset with someone for saying something they may not have actually meant. Dunno.

[Goliath]

Some people constantly seek out abusive relationships, to justify their own lack of feeling of self-worth. Whether this abuse be emotional, physical, or mental, it is abuse nonetheless, and whether or not you participate in said behavior, or do not understand it, doesn't mean it isn't justifiable in their own eyes.


Oh, I understand that some people seek abuse from others. But the idea that I'm doing that here is just laughable. I actually laughed out loud when I read Scotty's post (thanks for the laugh, btw, Scotty).


Scotty's point, and correct me if I am wrong, was to suggest that, in your angst with the board, you wanted to see people acting the exact way that justifies your position, and then upon seeing what you always see, leave the board saying, "See? I TOLD you this shit happens."

Yep, that got another chuckle. Thanks. I needed that.

I don't need to look for abuse here. I get it in spades on a regular basis.

[Goliath]

It does. It shows that I am willing to listen. If I am not, then I wouldn't listen to anyone. Listening to one person is all that's necessary to negate the statement "You don't listen to others."

Assuming the maker of the statement meant "You never, under any circumstances, at any time listen to anyone at all" then you would be correct.

If the maker of the statement was speaking in a more common manner and it meant "I have noticed you don't always listen to people" then it doesn't negate the truth value' of the statement.

In other words I think you are taking the statement in a hyperliteral fashion and I suspect it doesn't deserve to be treated that way because it isn't how most people speak.

So it appears to me that you have gotten upset with someone for saying something they may not have actually meant. Dunno.

Fine. Farren, what did you mean?

[Nil Desperandum]

Perhaps if you realized that "You don't listen to others." really means, "You do not listen to very many people, most especially if their opinion or voice doesn't match up with yours."


But that's not what it means.

Farren, beyelzu, is the above what you meant to say?
I wont' speak for them, but my experience is that they hardly ever match up... Farren? Beyelzu?

Rarely does any declarative statement using "never, ever, always," or those other qualifiers, actually means that is the way things are.

:? Then why do such qualifiers exist?
That is a great question, Goliath, but in analysis of human communication, you cannot take every single word literally, or else you'll find yourself in this quandary, and arguing over semantics every step of the game. In honest communication, if I say, "Goliath, you never put your left shoe on first.", all you have to do it put your left shoe on first to completely invalidate my statement.

BUT:

"Goliath, you never listen."
"Goliath, you never take me out anywhere."
"Goliath, you always do that."

are not to be taken literally.
They mean, USUALLY:
"Goliath, you refuse to listen to people far more than you choose to listen."
"Goliath, I really want to spend time with you, because you mean something to me, so let's go do something because I enjoy your company."
"Goliath, you do X so much more than you Y that it is hard to remember the last time you did Y."

Does that help? It may not make sense, Goliath, but is that going to change the fact that is how human's communicate?

Chris

[Socratoad]

Either get some help elsewhere or let those here who are willing to help, including myself help.



Fine: What would you have me do?[/QUOTE]

For a start, it might be helpful if you made an attempt to figure out why you take everything said on the board quite so personally, and/or get some anti-anxietals and/or anti-depressants.

When soooooooooo many seem to be in the wrong, is it not time to look in the mirror. I say this not in a smart-assed way, by rather out of concern.

It really is not pleasant to watch a person about to crash and burn.

[Scotty]

That is, quite honestly, the most retartedly absurd idea I've heard in at least several months.

My point is that people sometimes seek out destructive behavior. They make their life miserable. This is typical with people who are alcoholics (I am not saying you are), and I have noticed fairly typical with a lot of people. They push a specific behavior to get a reaction from people, thus reinforcing their opinion of themselves. Good or bad.

This is what I see, if it is not true, then that is fine. Your phrasing of the answer doesn't leave much of a nice impression though, as if you think I am an idiot for positing an idea (not that you said that of course, you were responding to the question, not the questioner).

I suspect you wouldn't be happy for that type of response to your questions.

-Scott

[Goliath]

That is a great question, Goliath, but in analysis of human communication, you cannot take every single word literally, or else you'll find yourself in this quandary, and arguing over semantics every step of the game. In honest communication, if I say, "Goliath, you never put your left shoe on first.", all you have to do it put your left shoe on first to completely invalidate my statement.

BUT:

"Goliath, you never listen."
"Goliath, you never take me out anywhere."
"Goliath, you always do that."

are not to be taken literally.
They mean, USUALLY:
"Goliath, you refuse to listen to people far more than you choose to listen."
"Goliath, I really want to spend time with you, because you mean something to me, so let's go do something because I enjoy your company."
"Goliath, you do X so much more than you Y that it is hard to remember the last time you did Y."

Does that help? It may not make sense, Goliath, but is that going to change the fact that is how human's communicate?

Chris

Perhaps people that you communicate irl use words like "never" so sloppily. But it seems as though people that are around me irl don't.

[beyelzu]

It does. It shows that I am willing to listen. If I am not, then I wouldn't listen to anyone. Listening to one person is all that's necessary to negate the statement "You don't listen to others."

Assuming the maker of the statement meant "You never, under any circumstances, at any time listen to anyone at all" then you would be correct.

If the maker of the statement was speaking in a more common manner and it meant "I have noticed you don't always listen to people" then it doesn't negate the truth value' of the statement.

In other words I think you are taking the statement in a hyperliteral fashion and I suspect it doesn't deserve to be treated that way because it isn't how most people speak.

So it appears to me that you have gotten upset with someone for saying something they may not have actually meant. Dunno.
speaking for myself, I would have to say that you are dead on. It would be ludicrous to apply never or always to my statements and hold them as being true.

[Goliath]

My point is that people sometimes seek out destructive behavior. They make their life miserable.

Oh yes, I know what you're talking about. The mother of one of my best friends is a raging alcoholic.

However, the idea that I'd have to actually look for abuse here is...well...absurd.



This is what I see, if it is not true, then that is fine. Your phrasing of the answer doesn't leave much of a nice impression though, as if you think I am an idiot for positing an idea (not that you said that of course, you were responding to the question, not the questioner).



Correct in that I was talking about your idea, not you. I don't think you're an idiot at all.

[Nil Desperandum]

Some people constantly seek out abusive relationships, to justify their own lack of feeling of self-worth. Whether this abuse be emotional, physical, or mental, it is abuse nonetheless, and whether or not you participate in said behavior, or do not understand it, doesn't mean it isn't justifiable in their own eyes.


Oh, I understand that some people seek abuse from others. But the idea that I'm doing that here is just laughable. I actually laughed out loud when I read Scotty's post (thanks for the laugh, btw, Scotty).
And Goliath, I'll believe you honestly believe that. All that I'm saying is that it is possible that others could believe that is in fact what you are doing here. That's it. You cannot control their reality any more than they can control yours, and I think that is the point - other people see things completely different, but some are less willing than others to be open to those ideas, even if patently absurd and in no way applicable to themselves. You understand Scotty's point, and you KNOW it does not apply to you - so be confident in that, because it doesn't suggest a myriad of slippery-slope atrocities about to round the corner at you! :)


I don't need to look for abuse here. I get it in spades on a regular basis.
You just said:
Oh, I understand that some people seek abuse from others. But the idea that I'm doing that here is just laughable. I actually laughed out loud when I read Scotty's post (thanks for the laugh, btw, Scotty).
That would seem to mean, that since you are constantly abused here, you are not seeking the abuse by leaving, but by staying here, which has been the course of action up until this point. Maybe his idea was absurd in that you look for it leaving, but maybe not SO absurd when we look at it from the standpoint that you have not left yet.

Chris

[Nil Desperandum]

Goliath: "Perhaps people that you communicate irl use words like "never" so sloppily. But it seems as though people that are around me irl don't."

Every single person I come across uses the English language in such a matter. I'm surprised that you haven't noticed people not being true to their word by using such language, but when taken so literally, it is really hard to grasp the true meaning implied... especially when that meaning seems to usually mean it has to be destructive, Goliath.

chris

[ApostateAbe]

Goliath, maybe the root of the problem is that you cause and exacerbate offense and trouble when you don't know it or mean it.

The best thing to do when someone insults you online is to just let it slide and act like you don't care. Ignore it and talk about the things that we all want to talk about. Don't worry that someone is hurting your reputation, because by far the greatest determination of your reputation comes from the things that you say yourself. And I think low of anyone who engages in selfish and spiteful rounds of flaming. After what happened in the chat room last night, I would rather that neither viscousmemories nor you comes to another chat room I am in. That will change, of course, when either one of you decides to talk about things that don't involve personal insults.

[Clutch Munny]

Man, I'm surprised at the number of people who say they frequently have to fight the urge to post while angry, in a way that lets people know I think they're being twits.

Er.. I mean, for other people.

[pescifish]

Scotty's point, and correct me if I am wrong, was to suggest that, in your angst with the board, you wanted to see people acting the exact way that justifies your position, and then upon seeing what you always see, leave the board saying, "See? I TOLD you this shit happens."

Yep, that got another chuckle. Thanks. I needed that.

I don't need to look for abuse here. I get it in spades on a regular basis.If you aren't looking for abuse here, then why are you seeing it when it isn't there? As others have mentioned, you seem to take things more personally than intended or than how most other people would.

Why is it you don't seem to hear those of us who say "I like you Goliath" but find abuse when people honestly answer your direct questions about you and your attitude? I cannot imagine how you can feel you are unwelcome on this board. If you were unwelcome, this thread would not have grown to several pages in a few short hours. Many people are putting out effort to answer your questions and keep you engaged. Look at the reality, Goliath. Between similar threads at HH and others here, you actually have gotten much more positive attention than most of us who just plod along posting our little bits every once in awhile.

To answer your OP questions:
...do you people have a problem with my hatred of xianity? I don't care, but as livius put it so well, I dislike when your expression of those views makes it difficult to talk about anything else.Is that the reason why I'm nearly constantly attacked here?I don't think your perception matches reality in this case: "nearly constantly attacked here" seems absurd in the face of the amount of friendly conversation I have seen you engaged in here. To answer your question, there can be no "reason" for a situation I don't believe exists.

[Dingfod]

:cheer: Go pescifish, go! :cheer:

[Goliath]

Hmmm, you do raise interesting questions, pescifish. Sometime tonight, I think I'll go back and compute the percentage of my posts on this board that were spent in battle.

[Scotty]

I think part of the reason I came to the conclusion I did was based on your, um, inebriated posts (again, not related to being an alcoholic), but on your admission that you didn't treat people very well and wanted them to accept your apology.

Now, I suspect that one reason people might get upset with what you say is not because of your opinion, but on how you state that opinion.

I mean, your response to my idea was phrased in such a way that it sounded very abusive. I understood the intent, and figured it wasn't malicious in any way, but I could have easily taken it that way, then I might have posted an angry, or at least more disruptive post, and the escalation begins.

(I would have answered that probably with a smiley, and "that is pretty funny, no I am not looking for abuse, I just want to know why I feel attacked").

Or some such thing.

-Scott

[viscousmemories]

Don't worry that someone is hurting your reputation, because by far the greatest determination of your reputation comes from the things that you say yourself. And I think low of anyone who engages in selfish and spiteful rounds of flaming.
That's an important point I still struggle to remember myself. When I find myself in a flamewar I often think something to the effect of, "I'm not a Christian, if you're looking for someone to turn the other cheek you're in for a rude awakening". But you are absolutely right. It makes no difference at all who started it or who is being the completely unreasonable one. After a certain amount of back and forth between two combatants people's eyes glaze over and they start to see two stubborn, petulant assholes. The only way I know of to avoid that is to walk away, and I've been trying hard to master that ability.

After what happened in the chat room last night, I would rather that neither viscousmemories nor you comes to another chat room I am in. That will change, of course, when either one of you decides to talk about things that don't involve personal insults.
I apologize for the fact that my behavior made you uncomfortable, and that goes the same for everyone else who was in the chat room. I've got a million excuses for why I acted as I did, but given the reality of the above there really is no point trying to defend myself. My actions were inappropriate regardless of the reasons. Rest assured it is highly unusual for me to be hostile in chat, and even that night I engaged in quite a bit of discussion that had nothing to do with insulting anyone.

[Corona688]

WTF? The entire thread was lighthearted and Joe clearly wasn't really trying to sway people to come to Africa using playground psychology.


Then why would he call me a chicken for not wanting to go there? If he was being facetious, it certainly wasn't obvious to me. Allow me to suggest a new rule of thumb, then. Before you decide people are attacking you, try on the hypothesis that the statement is a joke. Then weigh the hurtfulness of an angry defensive response to a joke, against whatever would be gained by successfully defending yourself against a stupid attack.

In the former, it's a big mistaken overreaction to something friendly; in the latter, it's... still a big overreaction, but to something slightly less friendly. It's not worth it.

Frankly, this is one of the most friendly places I've ever found on the internet. You won't find better.

[Socratoad]

WTF? The entire thread was lighthearted and Joe clearly wasn't really trying to sway people to come to Africa using playground psychology.


Then why would he call me a chicken for not wanting to go there? If he was being facetious, it certainly wasn't obvious to me. Allow me to suggest a new rule of thumb, then. Before you decide people are attacking you, try on the hypothesis that the statement is a joke. Then weigh the hurtfulness of an angry defensive response to a joke, against whatever would be gained by successfully defending yourself against a stupid attack.

In the former, it's a big mistaken overreaction to something friendly; in the latter, it's... still a big overreaction, but to something slightly less friendly. It's not worth it.

Frankly, this is one of the most friendly places I've ever found on the internet. You won't find better.

I second that :toad:

[Corona688]

Perhaps people that you communicate irl use words like "never" so sloppily. But it seems as though people that are around me irl don't. Golaiath, you're a mathematician. Precision is your business, but other people can be less so at times. Many people I talk to IRL uses words like 'never' sloppily like this. So do I.

[viscousmemories]

Hmmm, you do raise interesting questions, pescifish. Sometime tonight, I think I'll go back and compute the percentage of my posts on this board that were spent in battle.
It would be more pertinent to pescifish's comment if you computed the percentage of posts in which you have been responding to "attacks", instead of all those in which you've been doing battle. And given the subjective nature of what constitutes an "attack" some examples would probably be helpful too.

Goliath, I know you don't give a shit what I think as you have made clear on more than one occasion. Nevertheless I do feel an obligation to comment here, both because I genuinely do want you to find some peace of mind (preferably here) and because I care about this community.

If you need me to, I think I could find five examples on this forum of you responding to five separate people's fairly innocuous comments in a relatively hostile tone. I honestly can't think of a single example of someone responding to an innocuous comment of your own in a relatively hostile tone. In fact this thread alone has several examples of you doing just that. You obstensibly started this thread looking for constructive criticism, and have responded harshly to some, including accusing almost everyone who responded critically of attacking you. I think a reasonable inference to be drawn from that is that you do not actually want to hear any criticism, which does make me wonder why you started this thread at all.

You have frequently accused me of not liking you, being out to make you look bad, deliberately misinterpreting you, and so on. None of that is now or has ever been true. You have heard every criticism I have of your behavior because I have told you to your face. I have never been shy about telling you what I think of your comments, particularly the anti-Christian ones. And as I have said before, sometimes I have misinterpreted you but never on purpose. The idea that I might do so is ridiculous. What could I hope to gain from it? For that matter, what could I hope to gain from trying to make you look bad? Do you think making you look bad makes me look better somehow?

When I think someone is out of line I tell them so. I've probably made critical comments directed toward half the people here. Usually they either take or leave my comment with or without discussion. Only you accuse me of stuffing words in your mouth, singling you out for abuse, trying to libel you, etc. Not one single other person seems to think I act that way. Nobody. So why you? With what livius and I know of your experience at IIDB and HH, why do you suppose you were invited to join this forum? Do you think it was all a set-up? That I wanted you to join the FF so I could attack and belittle you? Why? The truth is the opposite. We hoped you would be comfortable here, and we have both made a concerted effort to help make that possible.

Frankly, Goliath, I agree with those who have suggested that you have unresolved anger issues that taint your experience of these fora. And I agree with Socratoad that you have essentially spit in the face of some of the participants in this thread who have really given of themselves to reach out to you. But sadly that is what I have come to expect your response to criticism to be, even - apparently - criticism you solicit.

I strongly suspect that you will see this post as yet another attack from me and attempt to smear your character, but it isn't. If you're planning to respond to it to argue point-by-point I won't answer. I am expressing what I think, not trying to win a rhetorical battle here. I would very much like you to stay here and continue having the positive interaction you have with people the vast majority of the time. But I care about the other members here too, and frankly I'm tired of your frequent hostility, toward me and toward some of the others here. I hope that if you decide to stay it stops.

As for whether you should stay, I think pesci is right on that you have received far more positive feedback than negative here, in this thread and in others. What you choose to do about it is up to you. I'm a member at some forums where half the responses in a thread like this (regardless of who you are or how well you're liked) would be along the lines of "Cya, wouldn't wanna be ya!" Yet not one person in this thread has told you to hit the pavement. Not one. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe it's because the people here like you and want you to stay. I know I do. My criticisms are restricted to the precise things I have addressed to you in the past, nothing more.

[seebs]

Rarely does any declarative statement using "never, ever, always," or those other qualifiers, actually means that is the way things are.

:? Then why do such qualifiers exist?

Because most people communicate imprecisely. The word you're looking for is "hyperbole".

[Goliath]

It would be more pertinent to pescifish's comment if you computed the percentage of posts in which you have been responding to "attacks", instead of all those in which you've been doing battle.


I'm sure that would reduce the percentage only slightly. Probably a fraction of a percent.



And given the subjective nature of what constitutes an "attack" some examples would probably be helpful too.



Sure. But not tonight. Too close to bedtime.



I genuinely do want you to find some peace of mind (preferably here)



You know, I'd actually like to be able to believe that.



If you need me to, I think I could find five examples on this forum of you responding to five separate people's fairly innocuous comments in a relatively hostile tone. I honestly can't think of a single example of someone responding to an innocuous comment of your own in a relatively hostile tone.



Innocuousness (if that's even a word) is irrelevant. It's the attacks that matter.



You obstensibly started this thread looking for constructive criticism, and have responded harshly to some,



Yes, if you're referring to people who have called me a baby or who believe that I don't listen to people.



you do not actually want to hear any criticism,



Incorrect, as otherwise I would never have started this thread.



You have frequently accused me of not liking you, being out to make you look bad, deliberately misinterpreting you, and so on.



Actually, IIRC, I've said that it seems like you do the latter of those two things. It's obvious, however, that you don't like me (and that's perfectly okay...I don't expect you to). If I've actually made the accusation that you're deliberately misinterpreting me, then I apologize.



I have never been shy about telling you what I think of your comments, particularly the anti-Christian ones.



Oh, I know. It perplexes me why you would defend xianity, though.



And as I have said before, sometimes I have misinterpreted you but never on purpose. The idea that I might do so is ridiculous. What could I hope to gain from it?



You could possibly gain successful attempts at character assassination.



Only you accuse me of stuffing words in your mouth, singling you out for abuse, trying to libel you, etc.



Well, you have put words in my mouth. That is an established and irrefutable fact. It seems as though you have singled me out for abuse, but of course I can't prove that. And I took back any comments about libel towards you in the chatroom, remember?



Not one single other person seems to think I act that way. Nobody.



And again, truth is not a popularity contest. If 10^10^10^10 people think that the sun is made from liquified cheetos, then guess what? 10^10^10^10 people are wrong.



With what livius and I know of your experience at IIDB and HH, why do you suppose you were invited to join this forum?



That's an interesting question, and one that I hadn't considered (although perhaps I should have). I don't know the answer to it.



Frankly, Goliath, I agree with those who have suggested that you have unresolved anger issues that taint your experience of these fora.



And, as I've said, that's entirely possible.



I strongly suspect that you will see this post as yet another attack from me



Actually, I'm not sure what to make of your post...it's such an incredibly weak attempt at an attack, that it almost doesn't seem to be one.



If you're planning to respond to it to argue point-by-point I won't answer.



So be it.



I would very much like you to stay here



I wish I could believe this, too.



and continue having the positive interaction you have with people the vast majority of the time.



Actually, I'm not convinced that the vast majority of my posts on this board would be considered as positive interaction. That will be determined when I get around to tallying my posts.



As for whether you should stay, I think pesci is right on that you have received far more positive feedback than negative here, in this thread and in others.



Looking over the thread again, this is something that we agree on. This thread has grown so fast, that I've had time to do little else but fend off the attacks. I apologize to those who have made positive, constructive comments (and know that I have, indeed, read them...I just don't have the time to respond to all of them now).



Yet not one person in this thread has told you to hit the pavement. Not one.



Not quite, no.

[livius drusus]

I strongly suspect that you will see this post as yet another attack from me


Actually, I'm not sure what to make of your post...it's such an incredibly weak attempt at an attack, that it almost doesn't seem to be one.

:buggin:

[Goliath]

:buggin:

:eyebrow2:

:?

[dave_a]

Goliath, what is it that you want?

Seriously? You have people who are spending time voluntarily trying to make peace with you and find a way to help you get along with us and you see attacks?

In the parental notification thread I asked you, as did a couple others, to clarify your position. A position that I stated seemed logically inconsistent to me.

Your response was to get increasingly angry and hostile in tone until you left stating that I and the others were a waste of your time.

Given that I was doing nothing more than asking you to clarify your position (which I do not view as an attack) how you you imagine ***I*** felt being told I was a waste of your time?

Yet when you made your goodbye post I responded to it informing you of the live chat going on and inviting you to it.

Why do you suppose I did that? Because I hate you?

I think you have communication issues, Goliath, serious ones. This isn't an attack, it is an honest statement of my opinion. My goal in making the statement isn't to hurt you, but to attempt to help you, if that is at all possible.

You can think whatever you want of my and others statements, we can't control how you perceive us.

But please take some time before responding and think about things thoroughly.

Why did I invite you to chat after you told me I was a waste of your time? Did you join the chat and then find me beating up on you?

Did I have to try and persuade you not to leave? If I wanted you gone I could have just responded to your goodbye thread with "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out". I didn't say that or anything like it though, did I?

There are 2 things that just amaze me concerning how you perceive things. The first thing is that you perceive attacks when there are none. The second thing is you perceive your attackers to be the same people who have demonstrated here and the other forums that we like you, care about you and want to be friends with you.

To tell you the plain truth, from my perspective, I find you to be a person who is very difficult to like because it causes pain. I feel that if I disagree with a position you take you will go off and accuse me of attacking you.

Anyway, I am rambling so let me finish with this thought. I genuinely do like you, I hope that you will become comfortable here and have friendly, thought provoking, enriching interactions with the other folks here, but as for me I have my limits when it comes to dealing with personalities I consider toxic. I consider your present, demonstrated personality toxic because you are attacking and criticizing as attacking you the very same people who have bent over backwards to try and help you fit in.

I will deal with that for awhile, but if it becomes clear to me that there is nothing I or anyone else can do to change the situation then there has to come a point where I just cease trying and move on.

I wish you well, but you are going to have to change your perceptions if you are ever going to get along with others in a harmonious rather than hostile manner.

[Dingfod]

Looking over the thread again, this is something that we agree on. This thread has grown so fast, that I've had time to do little else but fend off the attacks. I apologize to those who have made positive, constructive comments (and know that I have, indeed, read them...I just don't have the time to respond to all of them now).And yet you've made time to "fend off the [virtually nonexistent] attacks". And I thought I was negative.

Nevermind, I said I was done.

[HelenM]

I strongly suspect that you will see this post as yet another attack from me



Actually, I'm not sure what to make of your post...it's such an incredibly weak attempt at an attack, that it almost doesn't seem to be one.

Goliath, maybe this is a joke.

If not, I don't understand your response here at all. Why would you presuppose that vm's post is an attempt at an attack and judge it on that basis? Presuppositions like this, in my opinion, hinder your communications with others on discussion boards.



Yet not one person in this thread has told you to hit the pavement. Not one.



Not quite, no.

Again, I don't understand your response. Either one or more people in this thread have told you to hit the pavement or they haven't. All you have to do is read their words to see whether they have. You want your words to be taken at face value. Why not do the same for others and take theirs at face value, also? If they haven't told you to hit the pavement, why not acknowledge that instead of responding "not quite". That makes no more sense to me than if I said "this number is not prime" and you responded "not quite, no".

Does anyone attack you verbally IRL? Or does this only happen on online discussion boards?

If it doesn't happen IRL, what do you think is different online? Do people online interact with you differently from people IRL? Do you interact differently online and IRL?

Helen

[copiae]

Hey Goliath,

I guess you may see some of my meandering posts as 'attacks': I would like to think that this is not the case, but you are, after all, entitled to your own opinion.


Personally, I view your hatred of Christianity as being misguided, nothing more :).

[Socratoad]

Goliath, sprinkled throughout your posts are several references to IRL, which I really fail to understand, and as Helen has already queried. In just what way do you separate the two. You are a grown mature person I choose to assume and so what is the persona you assume while posting here as opposed to the persona you choose to assume IRL?

I ask the above because this artificial difference will continue to make it difficult to communicate with your fellow posters, if indeed you make such stark definitions. Granted we all, or at least me, can feel a little more free to spill my guts out or confide in others then I would do with clerks in the local mall or whatever. But the person typing this message is the very same person you would run into IRL as you so quaintly put it. I'm old and so I have no time in my life for playing games here or anywhere else. So please explain what you mean by IRL, for surely if the board here is not an integral part of your RL then you are just fooling yourself by playing an elaborate on-line game. I truly hope that this is not the case.

[Godless Dave]

One moment, you're warm, friendly and nice.

The next, you all attack me practically in unison.
Well, that did it. You guys screwed up. You accidentally let me know (in no uncertain terms) that I actually am not welcome here. The facade has ended.
I've sat by while others have poured their hearts out, trying to reach out to you,

All the while ignoring those who have used this thread to take further pot-shots at me.
I'm glad that I've made someone in this thread smile (except to laugh at and ridicule me, of course).
I don't need to look for abuse here. I get it in spades on a regular basis.
I do not see a single post in this thread that could be construed as an attack, a pot shot, or abuse. What I see is constructive criticism and helpful suggestions. You asked a question. People answered it. What's the problem?

[wade-w]

I do not see a single post in this thread that could be construed as an attack, a pot shot, or abuse. What I see is constructive criticism and helpful suggestions. You asked a question. People answered it. What's the problem?

In fairness, SharonDee's post, for one, could be considered an attack or pot shot. However, I do agree that even that was meant to be constructive criticism.

[Dingfod]

In fairness, SharonDee's post, for one, could be considered an attack or pot shot. However, I do agree that even that was meant to be constructive criticism.Kind of like a slap in the face.


Hey, it always worked in the John Wayne movies. :D

[Godless Dave]

SharonDee's comment wasn't particularly conducive to discussion, but it was hardly an "attack".

[Corona688]

I'm sure that would reduce the percentage only slightly. Probably a fraction of a percent. Being a better mathematician than me by a long shot, I'm sure you know the peril of assuming what you want to prove. That aside, this is not a numbers game.I genuinely do want you to find some peace of mind (preferably here)You know, I'd actually like to be able to believe that. Goliath, by your standards of conversation, would your reply not qualify as an 'attack'?Innocuousness (if that's even a word) is irrelevant. It's the attacks that matter. There is no such thing as an innocuous attack. If people were attacking you they'd know it.You obstensibly started this thread looking for constructive criticism, and have responded harshly to someYes, if you're referring to people who have called me a baby or who believe that I don't listen to people. Both of these have been clarified to the point where it is well-known that is not what they meant. You may still believe they meant otherwise, but stating so won't win you any points. There are no points to be won -- or lost. Let it drop. Please.And as I have said before, sometimes I have misinterpreted you but never on purpose. The idea that I might do so is ridiculous. What could I hope to gain from it? You could possibly gain successful attempts at character assassination.And what would anyone gain by attempting to assasinate your character? For that matter, how can what other people say to your face assasinate your character? Do you believe these people are talking smack about you behind your back? That is unlikely.

To put it bluntly, you're not that important. Nobody is, except maybye George W. Bush. To imagine that people are specifically targeting you to tarnish your integrity via an online, anonymous, bulletin board, is simply vanity -- and conversely, to believe that anyone could succeed via these channels is to vastly underestimate your own worth and integrity.Not one single other person seems to think I act that way. Nobody.And again, truth is not a popularity contest. If 10^10^10^10 people think that the sun is made from liquified cheetos, then guess what? 10^10^10^10 people are wrong. Except we are not talking about the sun here, or anything else mathematically definable, but the english language - a very odd, ill-defined, vague, and arbitrary construct. Furthermore it takes two people to communicate, and you do not occupy a privileged side of the conversation. Our facts are as good as yours.

Do you consider your reasoning infalliable, Goliath? I think you are wrong. You have not been able to satisfactorily explain why you find so many things and people and statements here offensive, and I don't think we're all idiots.I strongly suspect that you will see this post as yet another attack from me Actually, I'm not sure what to make of your post...it's such an incredibly weak attempt at an attack, that it almost doesn't seem to be one. Almost not an attack? That is a very interesting statement. Are some posts assumed to be attacks against you until proven innocent? I'm sure you see the fallacy in that.I would very much like you to stay hereI wish I could believe this, too.Then believe it. It doesn't really matter, in the end. Perpetuating hostilities is pointless.and continue having the positive interaction you have with people the vast majority of the time.Actually, I'm not convinced that the vast majority of my posts on this board would be considered as positive interaction. That will be determined when I get around to tallying my posts. I don't think there's much to be gained by turning this into a numbers game... I don't think the percentages are really relevant. This is neither an election nor a proof, but a very human conflict.As for whether you should stay, I think pesci is right on that you have received far more positive feedback than negative here, in this thread and in others.Looking over the thread again, this is something that we agree on. This thread has grown so fast, that I've had time to do little else but fend off the attacks. Your integrity is not something that can be wounded by an off-hand joke about being too chicken to visit a foreign continent. There are no barbarians battering at the gates. I think you can let it slide a little.

[Goliath]

Being a better mathematician than me by a long shot, I'm sure you know the peril of assuming what you want to prove. That aside, this is not a numbers game.


I did not assume what I was trying to prove because:

1. I did NOT say for CERTAIN that such a percentage would only be altered slightly, only that I was sure it would be. Sureness is NOT certainty.

2. I was not, as of that point trying to prove anything!


God damn it: read!!

I'm so sick of this shit that I almost want to scream and throw my computer out of my balcony window.

Edit: I've read the more recent replies to this thread, but I'm going to take my time and do some thinking before responding (except for the above dipshittery that I felt compelled to respond to).

[Nil Desperandum]

I'm so sick of this shit that I almost want to scream and throw my computer out of my balcony window.
I bet you'd find the odds in your favor that doing so would greatly improve your happiness and ability to communicate with others.

Of course, staying here would be way more favorable to improving your ability to communicate, but that is just my opinion.

Chris

[Corona688]

Being a better mathematician than me by a long shot, I'm sure you know the peril of assuming what you want to prove. That aside, this is not a numbers game.


I did not assume what I was trying to prove because:

1. I did NOT say for CERTAIN that such a percentage would only be altered slightly, only that I was sure it would be. Sureness is NOT certainty.

I am aware of this. I simply presumed you had some modicum of confidence in your opinion since you felt compelled to say it. Like it or not, your opinion DOES matter.
Please tone down the yelling. You completely missed my point, which is this:

You are certain that the facts are how you describe them, but you have not researched them, and you seem to have little intention of finding out for sure. You don't trust anyone but yourself to properly gauge this. Is it really so odious to imagine that your perception could be coloring the facts?2. I was not, as of that point trying to prove anything! Nope, you simply stated your opinion, which I disagreed with. Somehow this has become a crime.God damn it: read!! Right back at you. There's a whole page or two of post you ignored in your irrational rage at someone who respects you and is trying to help you.I'm so sick of this shit that I almost want to scream and throw my computer out of my balcony window. Why? I see absu-fucking-nothing in my post to generate this level of anger towards me. [many many edits to say what I mean]

[Goliath]

You are certain that the facts are how you describe them,


Wrong again! If I were certain, I would've used the word "certain" or not used the word "sure" and merely stated that only counting posts in which I respond to attacks would alter the percentage only slightly (note that I am not claiming this as of yet, since I have yet to tally all of my posts).



you seem to have little intention of finding out for sure.



Well, if you'd stop spewing out this infuriating bullshit, then maybe I could get around to counting how many of my posts I've spent battling you people.



You don't trust anyone but yourself to properly gauge this.



Unproven assertion.



Nope, you simply stated your opinion, which I disagreed with.



Correct, in that I stated my opinion and not a fact (regarding the percentage of my posts battling you people vs the percentage of my posts defending myself).

Right back at you.

I have, if you'd notice.



There's a whole page or two of post you ignored



And again, you missed where I said that I have read them and that I will respond to those posts, but after I've had some time to think about them.

Again: read.

Why?

What the fuck do you care?!

[dave_a]

[QUOTE=Corona688]
What the fuck do you care?!

Goliath, speaking for only myself, I no longer do. Have a life.

[Corona688]

You are certain that the facts are how you describe themWrong again! If I were certain, I would've used the word "certain" or not used the word "sure" and merely stated that only counting posts in which I respond to attacks would alter the percentage only slightly (note that I am not claiming this as of yet, since I have yet to tally all of my posts). You DID use the word "sure":I'm sure that would reduce the percentage only slightly. Probably a fraction of a percent. But again, that is not the point. This whole thing's emotional to the core; your opinions DO matter. And when you coat things you say with enough uncertainty to make them meaningless then they're, well, meaningless. If you don't mean it, dont' fucking say it.Well, if you'd stop spewing out this infuriating bullshit, then maybe I could get around to counting how many of my posts I've spent battling you people.Ah. So I'm "attacking" you now. When did this begin?Unproven assertion. Fine. Would you trust someone else's judgement if they went and counted? Regardless of whether their conclusions agreed with you?Correct, in that I stated my opinion and not a fact (regarding the percentage of my posts battling you people vs the percentage of my posts defending myself).

Right back at you.

I have, if you'd notice. I haven't noticed you responding to anything of my post of any importance whatsoever, no. Instead you've chosen to crack my skull over minor grammatrical inconsistencies that didn't cause any problems in understanding in the first place.And again, you missed where I said that I have read them and that I will respond to those posts, but after I've had some time to think about them. My apologies, I'd assumed I'd fallen into the category of those "attacking you" when you started flinging spittle in my face over a minor grammatrical mixup. And as evidenced by what I'm quoting, you DID respond, already.Again: read. Again: Right back at you. I see no indication you've really read my post, other than picking it over for minor grammatrical inconsistencies that inspire apoplexy in you.Why?What the fuck do you care?! Human empathy? Why the fuck should I not fucking care that what I said seemed to hurt you deeply? [edited many times to say what I mean]

[Goliath]

You DID use the word "sure"


Correct. Hence I'm not certain.

For fuck's sake, read!!!

Ah. So I'm "attacking" you now. When did this begin?

When you started a conversation of the following form:

Me: "X"

You: "'Y'? That makes no sense."

Me: "No, I said 'X'."

You: "'Z'?! That's horrible!"

Me: "No, I said X, god damn it!"

You: "Why would you say 'A'?"

and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on it fucking goes!!

This is making me ill. I'm physically ill from having these fucking conversations. I feel as though the acid in my stomach could dissolve a Humvee right now.



Fine. Would you trust someone else's judgement if they went and counted? Regardless of whether their conclusions agreed with you?



That depends on who the "someone else" is.



I haven't noticed you responding to anything of my post of any importance whatsoever, no.



I've given a point by point response. Perhaps you had nothing of any importance to say?

That's it. I'm done with you until you actually respond to something that I've actually fucking said. Until then, fucking read!

[LadyShea]

Goliath, you mentioned having a friend who is going for his Masters in Psychology. Please ask him if he feels that most interpersonal conflicts, amongst non-patholigically ill people, are due to malicious intent, or miscommunication. Communicating is a subtle volley of intent, perception, filtering, masking, and expectation.

I am pretty sure he will confirm my thought that very few people in this world are truly malicious, and if you really think everyone that has responded to you is out to get you, or assasinate your character, or looking for ways and reasons to attack you, or whatever, then it is probably a misinterpretation on your part.

You appear, to me, to be unwilling to consider the possibility that perhaps you are part of the problem, a problem, that by definition, can't be one sided.

[Nil Desperandum]

Goliath, I haven't attacked you. I respectfully wish a response, as I do not think we have anything to argue about, but perhaps, have something constructive to offer one another.

[Goliath]

I don't know if I'm a part of the problem or not, Shea. I just feel as though when it comes to talking to some of you, nothing that I say matters. I may as well say nothing but "Go fuck yourself up the ass with a tobasco-covered cactus while I rape your grandmother and pour sugar down your gas tank"...I think I'd get somewhat similar reactions from some of you (not all of you, some of you).

[Goliath]

Goliath, I haven't attacked you.

No, to my knowledge, you haven't. And for that, I thank you.


I respectfully wish a response, as I do not think we have anything to argue about, but perhaps, have something constructive to offer one another.

Perhaps. I wish I knew.

[Corona688]

You DID use the word "sure"
Correct. Hence I'm not certain. And again, you're responding to the part of my post that actually has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I know fucking well that's your opinion and not a stated fact, as I have stated at least twice. But yet again you beat my skull in for having the temerity to use the english language, instead of answering the question.For fuck's sake, read!!! For fuck's sake, stop shouting.Ah. So I'm "attacking" you now. When did this begin?

When you started a conversation of the following form:

Me: "X"

You: "'Y'? That makes no sense."

Me: "No, I said 'X'."

You: "'Z'?! That's horrible!"

Me: "No, I said X, god damn it!"

You: "Why would you say 'A'?" Actually, no, I never said that. Even if I did, "misunderstanding you" is not the same thing as "attacking you". But since you seem to be permitted to put words in my mouth, allow me to show you my perspective:

You: "Z"
Me: "z? I don't think that quite works, because of X and Y."
You: "No, I said Z."
Me: "Ah, OK. Z. That's nearly the same thing though, and still doesn't make sense for the same reasons."
You: "Z! Z! Z! Z! Z Z Z Z Z Z Z!
Me: "Yes, yes, Z. I know. The point is -"
You: Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z!This is making me ill. I'm physically ill from having these fucking conversations. I feel as though the acid in my stomach could dissolve a Humvee right now. Turn off your computer, then. Right now. This board ain't worth your health.Fine. Would you trust someone else's judgement if they went and counted? Regardless of whether their conclusions agreed with you?That depends on who the "someone else" is. Right then. Who?I've given a point by point response. You have not. You stopped right at the points where you had an apoplexy and ignored or skipped the rest. Don't believe me? Fucking read my posts, then yours.

[Goliath]

Corona: Fuck off. I am done with you until you respond to things that I actually fucking say, as opposed to things that I've never said.

Oh, and who the FUCK gave you authority over my actions!? I'll shut off my computer when I'm good and fucking ready!

And I'll yell at you whenever I fucking please, asshole!

[dave_a]

12Corona: Fuck off. I am done with you <snip>

And I'll yell at you whenever I fucking please, asshole!

[Goliath]

Corona: Fuck off. I am done with you <snip>

And I'll yell at you whenever I fucking please, asshole!

12

:?

[Corona688]

Corona: Fuck off. I am done with you until you respond to things that I actually fucking say, as opposed to things that I've never said.It's truly amazing how many things you've never said.Oh, and who the FUCK gave you authority over my actions!? Nobody, of course. It was advice.And I'll yell at you whenever I fucking please, asshole! Fine. Have fun.

[LadyShea]

I don't know if I'm a part of the problem or not, Shea. I just feel as though when it comes to talking to some of you, nothing that I say matters. I may as well say nothing but "Go fuck yourself up the ass with a tobasco-covered cactus while I rape your grandmother and pour sugar down your gas tank"...I think I'd get somewhat similar reactions from some of you (not all of you, some of you).

No, you really wouldn't. You would probably get some colorful suggestions as to things to do to yourself in return, told "Door...ass...etc", or ignored.

The fact that you see that dramatic a level of animosity, indicates, to me that you are perceiving things very differently than me. I perceive very little animosity in this thread. This is due to the filtering I mentioned....we filter everything through our memories, biases, and expectations until they are often very different than what the other person intended. This is just plain being a human and why communicating with others is one of the most difficult things we do as humans.

Just some thoughts, maybe conversations to have with your friend if the mood strikes.

[Goliath]

No, you really wouldn't. You would probably get some colorful suggestions as to things to do to yourself in return, told "Door...ass...etc", or ignored.

The fact that you see that dramatic a level of animosity, indicates, to me that you are perceiving things very differently than me. I perceive very little animosity in this thread. This is due to the filtering I mentioned....we filter everything through our memories, biases, and expectations until they are often very different than what the other person intended. This is just plain being a human and why communicating with others is one of the most difficult things we do as humans.

Just some thoughts, maybe conversations to have with your friend if the mood strikes.

Go fuck yourself up the ass with a tobasco-covered cactus while I rape your grandmother and pour sugar down your gas tank.

:D

Sorry, I needed a bit of a laugh.

I don't know. You could be right. I'm too emotionally drained to think about it anymore tonight.

[LadyShea]

Go fuck yourself up the ass with a tobasco-covered cactus while I rape your grandmother and pour sugar down your gas tank.

What kind of cactus? My grandmother is dead so ewwww. Sugar in the gas tank is an urban legend. ;) (no need to be sorry at all, laughter is good for you)

I don't know. You could be right. I'm too emotionally drained to think about it anymore tonight.

Understood, take a little break and solve a problem or whatever relaxes mathematicians.

[Nil Desperandum]

[QUOTE]Understood, take a little break and solve a problem or whatever relaxes mathematicians.
There is no mathematical equation that could ever possibly describe this thread, and that is precisely the problem. ;)

[Goliath]

[QUOTE]Understood, take a little break and solve a problem or whatever relaxes mathematicians.
There is no mathematical equation that could ever possibly describe this thread, and that is precisely the problem. ;)

If it weren't for the smiley at the end of that, I'd probably be enraged again....but it would be wrong to get angry about your ignorance.

I'll just let out a sigh and let it be.

[Goliath]

What kind of cactus?

Whatever's out there...I'm sure the 6'+ varieties in the desert will fit just fine. :glare: :wink: :D



My grandmother is dead so ewwww.



Hey, beggars can't be choosers. If my only options are crying myself to sleep while masturbating in front of a cracked mirror yet again or getting the shovel out of the closet...... Well, sometimes the shovel option looks mighty good. :P



Sugar in the gas tank is an urban legend. ;)


Yeah, but I gotta put my sugar in something, if ya know what I mean. :D

(no need to be sorry at all, laughter is good for you)

Yes, yes it has been. But now I'm off to bed. Goodnight.

[Nil Desperandum]

[QUOTE]Understood, take a little break and solve a problem or whatever relaxes mathematicians.
There is no mathematical equation that could ever possibly describe this thread, and that is precisely the problem. ;)

If it weren't for the smiley at the end of that, I'd probably be enraged again....but it would be wrong to get angry about your ignorance.

It probably would have made it easier if I had said:

[Blatant Sarcasm and Use of Smily For Humorous Purposes]
blah blah
[/Blatant Sarcasm and Use of Smily For Humorous Purposes]

But I think it would eventually tire on me to have to explain myself in such a fashion.

Since I am ignorant, Goliath, do you care to enlighten me? You can do so in PM, if you wish, to keep the "attacks" to a minimum. I have no interest in attacking you, merely understanding.

Chris

[Goliath]

[Blatant Sarcasm and Use of Smily For Humorous Purposes]
blah blah
[/Blatant Sarcasm and Use of Smily For Humorous Purposes]


No, I knew that the smiley was for the purposes of sarcasm and humor...it's just that I really don't find it funny. I've ran into people who actually believe that what I do (other than teaching) consists of writing two very large integers on my blackobard and then adding them (or, if I'm feeling frisky, multiplying them). Of course, more common reactions to letting people know that I'm a mathematician are usually one of the following:

1. "Oh...I hate math!" <usually followed by either an awkward silence or a long and either insulting or uninteresting story as to why this person hates mathematics>.

2. I suddenly get treated as though I'm this inuman.....thing that's really smart and so intimidating that I am not to be talked to. Ever.



Since I am ignorant, Goliath, do you care to enlighten me?



Ummmm...well, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin.

I have no interest in attacking you, merely understanding.

That I believe. For what it's worth, I'm sorry for not responding to your earlier posts in this thread (the ones on pages 1 and 2, I think..).

[Nil Desperandum]

No, I knew that the smiley was for the purposes of sarcasm and humor...it's just that I really don't find it funny.
I make myself laugh, and that is good enough for me. I take things as they come, I try not to be too concerned about how negatively I effect people. Learning to react is helping me a lot more than learning to control the future, which is nearly futile anyway.

I've ran into people who actually believe that what I do (other than teaching) consists of writing two very large integers on my blackobard and then adding them (or, if I'm feeling frisky, multiplying them).
What DO you do, Goliath? I have no fucking clue. :)

Of course, more common reactions to letting people know that I'm a mathematician are usually one of the following:

1. "Oh...I hate math!" <usually followed by either an awkward silence or a long and either insulting or uninteresting story as to why this person hates mathematics>.
Sucks to be them, huh? :P

2. I suddenly get treated as though I'm this inuman.....thing that's really smart and so intimidating that I am not to be talked to. Ever.
You obviously are extremely intelligent to be a mathmetician. As far as numbers are concerned.

Ummmm...well, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin.
I want to try to appeal to your mathemetician humor, but I'm simply afraid I'll bumble it up somewhere by being ignorant again. OH well, here goes nothing, since I prefer courage over fear:

Be random!

That I believe. For what it's worth, I'm sorry for not responding to your earlier posts in this thread (the ones on pages 1 and 2, I think..).
I'm proof something has nothing negative whatsoever to bring to your table. Demonstrably so. Hang on to that.

Chris

[Goliath]

Well, I doubt this'll do the tiniest bit of good, since you no longer give a fuck, dantonac...but I'll answer this anyways.

Goliath, what is it that you want?

I want everyone that I interact with here to actually listen to me...like I'm listened to irl.



You have people who are spending time voluntarily trying to make peace with you and find a way to help you get along with us and you see attacks?



I see some attacks, yes.



In the parental notification thread I asked you, as did a couple others, to clarify your position.



And I did. Several times. But nothing that I said in that thread mattered, because you appeared to not listen to a single thing that I had to say.



Your response was to get increasingly angry and hostile in tone



Wrong. Your response to my responses was to misconstrue and misread what I've written, and eventually, my responses became irate. I'm sorry, but I don't have an infinite amount of patience.



Given that I was doing nothing more than asking you to clarify your position



Wrong again. You were misreading what I had to say (whether that was done intentionally or not, I do not know).



how you you imagine ***I*** felt being told I was a waste of your time?



I don't know, since I am not you...let me take a guess: relieved that the discussion was over? Again, I don't know.



Yet when you made your goodbye post I responded to it informing you of the live chat going on and inviting you to it.

Why do you suppose I did that?



Again, I don't know. How could I possibly know? I'm not you.



But please take some time before responding and think about things thoroughly.



I have. Unfortunately, I've taken too much time, and you no longer give a fuck about what I have to say. So be it.



Why did I invite you to chat after you told me I was a waste of your time?



What the fuck, dantonac?! I'm not a god damn mind reader. How the fuck would I know why you invited me?



Did you join the chat and then find me beating up on you?



No.



There are 2 things that just amaze me concerning how you perceive things. The first thing is that you perceive attacks when there are none.



Why would I perceive an attack if it isn't there? I'd love for them not to be there...fuck, at this point, there isn't too much that I wouldn't give to be able to get along with you people. But that doesn't seem likely to happen.



The second thing is you perceive your attackers to be the same people who have demonstrated here and the other forums that we like you, care about you and want to be friends with you.



I'd love to believe that. I really would.



I find you to be a person who is very difficult to like because it causes pain.



I could say the same about many of you.

[LadyShea]

Well, I doubt this'll do the tiniest bit of good, since you no longer give a fuck, dantonac...but I'll answer this anyways.

Goliath, what is it that you want?

I want everyone that I interact with here to actually listen to me...like I'm listened to irl.


Do you think it's just possible that someone can be listening to you, and still simply not understand your position? I think misunderstanding is much more likely than purposeful obtuseness, but that's just me.



And I did. Several times. But nothing that I said in that thread mattered, because you appeared to not listen to a single thing that I had to say.



Again, is it possible, in your opinion, for someone to still not understand what you are trying to say? If one asks for clarification, it indicates they are listening and attempting to understand. Perhaps, your explanation is still not hitting the mark for whatever reason. That's why I brought up analogies previously, I have found sometimes it's a matter of finding a way to explain something that the listener is able to connect with personally...a point of reference within their realm of experience and knowledge. Not an accusation, Goliath, just throwing out alternative explanations for you to explore.



Wrong. Your response to my responses was to misconstrue and misread what I've written, ad eventually, my responses became irate. I'm sorry, but I don't have an infinite amount of patience.



Which is understandable, but again, could the miconstruations and misintepretations be inadvertant?


Wrong again. You were misreading what I had to say (whether that was done intentionally or not, I do not know).



Unintentional misreading can often be resolved by changing your delivery of the information. You could try rewording, using analogies, asking the other person questions so you can add information they may be missing.

how you you imagine ***I*** felt being told I was a waste of your time?

I don't know, since I am not you...let me take a guess: relieved that the discussion was over? Again, I don't know.



He didn't ask if you knew how he felt, he asked if you could imagine it. How would you feel if someone called you a waste of time?

Yet when you made your goodbye post I responded to it informing you of the live chat going on and inviting you to it.

Why do you suppose I did that?

Again, I don't know. How could I possibly know? I'm not you.



He is asking you to empathize, and try to imagine why another person would do this. You don't have to know for a fact, simply imagine why you might do A or B, then extrapolate that to dantonac



Why did I invite you to chat after you told me I was a waste of your time?


What the fuck, dantonac?! I'm not a god damn mind reader. How the fuck would I know why you invited me?



You are a human being with feelings and should be able to come up with some possibilites via empathy. That's all he is asking for if I am reading him correctly.



Why would I perceive an attack if it isn't there? I'd love for them not to be there...fuck, at this point, there isn't too much that I wouldn't give to be able to get along with you people. But that doesn't seem likely to happen.



People misperceive things all the time. This is because we filter them through our expectations, experiences, and biases. I am not saying you ARE doing this, only that it is not uncommon



I'd love to believe that. I really would.



Then believe it. Is it really harder for you to believe people would rather be your friend than go out of their way to attack you or get into conflicts?

[Corona688]

Why would I perceive an attack if it isn't there? I'd love for them not to be there...fuck, at this point, there isn't too much that I wouldn't give to be able to get along with you people. But that doesn't seem likely to happen. Don't forget, I had to get you to tell me when I began attacking you. My intention was never to attack you, but you saw attacks.

I have no idea why you would percieve attacks that aren't there, but you demonstratably have.

[Goliath]

You're on my ignore list, Corona, so I have no idea what you just said, and for the sake of my blood pressure, I'm not sure I want to know.

[Goliath]

Do you think it's just possible that someone can be listening to you, and still simply not understand your position?


Absolutely. But I find such a situation more and more unlikely when I have to explain myself 10, 20, 30 or more times in a row.



Again, is it possible, in your opinion, for someone to still not understand what you are trying to say?



Yes, it is. However, it doesn't appear to be likely.



Which is understandable, but again, could the miconstruations and misintepretations be inadvertant?


Yes, they possibly could. But when they occur again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, I get so frustrated that the intentions of my interlocutor become quite irrelevant.



He didn't ask if you knew how he felt, he asked if you could imagine it.



And how am I supposed to know if I can imagine how he felt, when I don't know how he felt? Maybe I can imagine how he felt...maybe I can't.

I'm thinking of a number right now...can you imagine which one it is?



How would you feel if someone called you a waste of time?



That would depend on who was telling me this and what the situation was.



He is asking you to empathize, and try to imagine why another person would do this.



Again, I could try to do this, but it seems pointless, since I don't know why he invited me...I could make a large list of reasons, but what good would it do, if I don't know why he actually invited me?



You don't have to know for a fact, simply imagine why you might do A or B, then extrapolate that to dantonac



I honestly don't understand...what good would that do? My imagined reasons might not be his reasons, so the extrapolation could be wildly inaccurate.



People misperceive things all the time. This is because we filter them through our expectations, experiences, and biases. I am not saying you ARE doing this, only that it is not uncommon



Okay. If I am doing this, then how could I possibly find out?



Then believe it.



:jawdrop: Why would I do that!? I would quite possibly just be opening myself up to more abuse.

[LadyShea]

Absolutely. But I find such a situation more and more unlikely when I have to explain myself 10, 20, 30 or more times in a row.

Yes, it is. However, it doesn't appear to be likely.

Yes, they possibly could. But when they occur again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, I get so frustrated that the intentions of my interlocutor become quite irrelevant.



Which is why I included a paragraph (which you ignored for some reason) on this often being due to the delivery. When something happens pretty consistently , isn't is sensible to look at the common factor? In this case, the common factor is your words being misread or misintepreted; so perhaps asking questions when someone seems to not understand you, so you can change the way you are expressing it to a form they can identify with, is a better choice than getting frustrated and angry.

In my job, I have had to create an entire repertoire of anaolgies and terms and definitions and ways to explain certain functions and features of our product, because I deal with such a huge range of people. What works for one simply doesn't register with another due to their differences in learning style, experiences, vocabulary etc.

And how am I supposed to know if I can imagine how he felt, when I don't know how he felt? Maybe I can imagine how he felt...maybe I can't.

I'm thinking of a number right now...can you imagine which one it is?



Guessing a number and empathizing with emotions are not the same thing. Empathy is simply imagining how you would feel in a certain situation, and then assuming that another human being might feel the same way.


That would depend on who was telling me this and what the situation was.


In this case you had the situation. Dantonac was asking you to mentally switch positions with him in the discussion where you said he was a waste of time, then imagine what you would feel in his place..





Again, I could try to do this, but it seems pointless, since I don't know why he invited me...I could make a large list of reasons, but what good would it do, if I don't know why he actually invited me?

I honestly don't understand...what good would that do? My imagined reasons might not be his reasons, so the extrapolation could be wildly inaccurate.



Because empathy is an important part of communication and problem resolution when dealing with other people. Most people find that at some base level, we aren't so very different that your imaginings would be wildly inaccurate.





Okay. If I am doing this, then how could I possibly find out?



Well, for starters, you can accept people at their word when they say "I didn't mean such-and-so as an attack". Coronoa's post addressed this. If I say "I didn't attack you" and you perceived an attack, then you perceived an attack that wasn't there. Why you might do this, I cannot address. Perhaps in your experience people are malicious and lie all the time, so you expect people to attack you then lie about it. I don't know...this is just an imagined reason someone might misperceive the items we are discussiing.



:jawdrop: Why would I do that!? I would quite possibly just be opening myself up to more abuse.

Or possibly opening yourself up to greater understanding of yourself and others, more positive interactions, and a more enriching experience here at this board. You can't know if you don't try...its a risk, and only you can decide if the possible rewards are worth that risk.

[Dingfod]

You know, I felt a compelling urge to respond in a negative fashion to you Goliath, but on second thought, I deleted the whole damn thing. I've never attacked you in any way and am not going to change that now. Good luck to you, man.

[Goliath]

Which is why I included a paragraph (which you ignored for some reason)


:deepsigh: No I didn't. The response to it was merely absorbed into the response to the rest of your post, so I thought I'd cut it out of the quoted material to reduce redundancy.

However, to address that paragraph in particular: I am aware that there is more than one way of explaining things. I've tried explaining some things to some of the people here more times than I can count, and in every way that I know. And nothing seems to work. This situation doesn't reflect my rl interactions in the slightest.



on this often being due to the delivery. When something happens pretty consistently , isn't is sensible to look at the common factor? In this case, the common factor is your words being misread or misintepreted; so perhaps asking questions when someone seems to not understand you, so you can change the way you are expressing it to a form they can identify with, is a better choice than getting frustrated and angry.



Been there. Tried that. Didn't work.



Guessing a number and empathizing with emotions are not the same thing.



No, but they seem to be as likely (by the way, the number that I was thinking of was i^i (where i is the square root of -1)).



Empathy is simply imagining how you would feel in a certain situation, and then assuming that another human being might feel the same way.



(emphasis mine)

Why is that assumption warranted? In my experience, empathy has caused damage and misunderstanding more often than not.

It's entirely possible for two people to have very little in common. Empathy is then useless between two such people.



In this case you had the situation. Dantonac was asking you to mentally switch positions with him in the discussion where you said he was a waste of time, then imagine what you would feel in his place..



I don't know what dantonac was thinking up until I told him he was a waste of my time, so I don't know what his thoughts would've been up to that point.

Personally, if I try to ask someone a question and I get response after differing response that I can't seem to understand, then IMO it's entirely possible that I'm wasting the answerer's time.



Most people find that at some base level, we aren't so very different that your imaginings would be wildly inaccurate.



Apparently, my experiences have not led me to be "most people".



Well, for starters, you can accept people at their word when they say "I didn't mean such-and-so as an attack".



I try, Shea. I really fucking try. But for many of the people around here, if I do give them the benefit of the doubt, it changes absolutely nothing.



Perhaps in your experience people are malicious and lie all the time, so you expect people to attack you then lie about it.



Some are, yes. Most? I couldn't say for certain.



Or possibly opening yourself up to greater understanding of yourself and others, more positive interactions, and a more enriching experience here at this board. You can't know if you don't try...its a risk, and only you can decide if the possible rewards are worth that risk.

Like I said, I really fucking try...but as soon as I move on from one misunderstanding another one emerges.

[LadyShea]

However, to address that paragraph in particular: I am aware that there is more than one way of explaining things. I've tried explaining some things to some of the people here more times than I can count, and in every way that I know. And nothing seems to work. This situation doesn't reflect my rl interactions in the slightest.

Been there. Tried that. Didn't work.



Obviously, one thing we have ascertained through all of this is that you do not experience these issues in your personal, face to face and spoken interactions.

And I really hate to say this, but need to because I beleive this is the root of the entire issue. I have not seen you try to explain things in different ways nor have I seen you ask questions to try to determine the cause of the misinterpetation. What I have seen, which may be a very small sample, I concede, is that you tend to get angry and frustrated and assume malice very quickly. Again, I have not seen the entirety of your forum interactions, I am just letting you know what I have seen.

Guessing a number and empathizing with emotions are not the same thing.

No, but they seem to be as likely (by the way, the number that I was thinking of was i^i (where i is the square root of -1)).



There are infinite numbers, and your choice cannot be guessed by searching ones own experiences. There are only so many emotions, and we all feel them, so it is somewhat easy to imagine how another person is feeling by searching your own memories and experiences for something similar.

Why is that assumption warranted? In my experience, empathy has caused damage and misunderstanding more often than not.

It's entirely possible for two people to have very little in common. Empathy is then useless between two such people.



Empathy is in large part the basis for all morality, communication and relationships. If we were unable to empathize with each other, we would walk around viewing all other beings as completely alien and unknowable and never be able to bond or interact in any meaningful way.

So, while it is possible for two people to have few interests or experiences in common, the simple fact that they are both humans, with emotions, allows them to interact via empathy.


I don't know what dantonac was thinking up until I told him he was a waste of my time, so I don't know what his thoughts would've been up to that point.

Personally, if I try to ask someone a question and I get response after differing response that I can't seem to understand, then IMO it's entirely possible that I'm wasting the answerer's time.



Well, I can't speak for him further on the actual interaction, so I can't continue this particular aspect of the discussion



Apparently, my experiences have not led me to be "most people".



You are human, you feel emotions, you have had experiences that you reacted to with emotions, you interact with other people and have feelings about those interactions. You are "most people" simply because you are not an alien, or in a coma, or a sociopath.


But for many of the people around here, if I do give them the benefit of the doubt, it changes absolutely nothing.



Why do you say that?


Perhaps in your experience people are malicious and lie all the time, so you expect people to attack you then lie about it.

Some are, yes. Most? I couldn't say for certain.



I was just throwing out an example, it wasn't meant for you to answer. I thought you might be able to search your own experiences to find a possible reason as to why you think people attack you, then lie and say they didn't....why you have that expectation or seem to at least

For example, if every time someone said "I love you" to me, they hit me with a baseball bat the next second, I might come to expect that "love" means "Batter up!". Many of our reactionary responses are conditioned, IMO.

Like I said, I really fucking try...but as soon as I move on from one misunderstanding another one emerges.

Which, I believe, is due to a single issue or area of communication differences that could possibly be addressed if we can find out what it is.

In my experience, a series or cycle of similar misfortunes often has a single cause that a change in reactionary patterns, behavior, attitude, or thought processes on my part can resolve.

[Goliath]

you do not experience these issues in your personal, face to face and spoken interactions.


Correct.



And I really hate to say this, but need to because I beleive this is the root of the entire issue. I have not seen you try to explain things in different ways nor have I seen you ask questions to try to determine the cause of the misinterpetation.



An example of such an occurence earlier tonight can be found in this thread (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=870&page=1&pp=25). In it, I say that it seems as though seebs has purposefully tried to keep me from posting on his blog. He counters with asking "Why did you assume this [censoring] was specific to you?" I responded that I assumed no such thing. He then replies with the logical equivalent of "Oh, I see, there was some ambiguity because you said 'censor me" instead of 'censor Goliath'..."etc. My response was to tell him that such was not what I meant at all: That the word "seem" implies that no accusation was made.

However, an interesting question might be: Am I closer to giving up explaining things in different ways to some people here? That's certainly possible...I might be doing such without realizing it because I'm so sick of the stress and pain that I've been feeling here, lately.


There are infinite numbers, and your choice cannot be guessed by searching ones own experiences. There are only so many emotions, and we all feel them, so it is somewhat easy to imagine how another person is feeling by searching your own memories and experiences for something similar.


Correct in that there are only finitely many emotions (that I know of, anyways). However, there are so many reasons to feel emotions in so many situations, that if you want to guess an emotion with a reason for a given situation, there may as well be infinitely many choices.

Maybe I should make a more apt analogy: I am thinking of an integer between 1 and 10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10. Can you guess what it is?



Empathy is in large part the basis for all morality, communication and relationships. If we were unable to empathize with each other, we would walk around viewing all other beings as completely alien and unknowable and never be able to bond or interact in any meaningful way.



I didn't say that I was unable to empathize with anyone, only that, to my recollection, it has caused more pain and misunderstanding than not.

Of course, if you're right, then that could explain why I oftentimes can't seem to keep a girlfriend to save my god damn life.



So, while it is possible for two people to have few interests or experiences in common, the simple fact that they are both humans, with emotions, allows them to interact via empathy.



Then why has empathy been a failure for me?



Well, I can't speak for him further on the actual interaction, so I can't continue this particular aspect of the discussion



Fair enough. It's unfortunate that he pulled out of the discussion.



You are human, you feel emotions, you have had experiences that you reacted to with emotions, you interact with other people and have feelings about those interactions.



But then why does empathy seem not to work that well for me?


You are "most people" simply because you are not an alien, or in a coma, or a sociopath.


But I don't think that people in general have that much in common. Again, I could be wrong about that.



Why do you say that?



Because the misunderstandings spring anew. For every one that I get past, it seems as though at least one more springs up.



I thought you might be able to search your own experiences to find a possible reason as to why you think people attack you, then lie and say they didn't....why you have that expectation or seem to at least



That's probably due to being burned many, many times in the past (more than I can count, actually).



Which, I believe, is due to a single issue or area of communication differences that could possibly be addressed if we can find out what it is.



Like I said, at this point, there isn't much that I wouldn't give to not know.

It occurred to me earlier today that if the reason for all of this shit here (and at the IIDB) is only because of something that I do or don't do, then what if similar communcation issues arise irl? What if I stroll into a classroom 10 years from now and literally no one seems capable of understanding what I'm saying? What if I'm unable to communicate with anyone whatsoever?

The thought of that terrifies me...I'd probably kill myself.

[LadyShea]

]

An example of such an occurence earlier tonight can be found in this thread (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=870&page=1&pp=25). In it, I say that it seems as though seebs has purposefully tried to keep me from posting on his blog. He counters with asking "Why did you assume this [censoring] was specific to you?" I responded that I assumed no such thing. He then replies with the logical equivalent of "Oh, I see, there was some ambiguity because you said 'censor me" instead of 'censor Goliath'..."etc. My response was to tell him that such was not what I meant at all: That the word "seem" implies that no accusation was made.

I will need to get back to you on this. I am currently posting under the influence of Darvocet and don't trust my ability to read an understand that thread right now.

However, an interesting question might be: Am I closer to giving up explaining things in different ways to some people here? That's certainly possible...I might be doing such without realizing it because I'm so sick of the stress and pain that I've been feeling here, lately.

That is entirely understandable if that is the case. I work for the most unethical and stupid businesspeople on the planet, who bungled their way into some great staff and whose product is amazing, when it works. I used to email, call, write memos, cry, yell, be unable to sleep at night, worry and make myself sick to my stomach in an effort to make him "get it" and benefit the company, the customers and my staff. After 4 years, I finally I said "fuck it" and now the company is in a hole too large to get out of, but I am stress free because I don't care anymore. Circumstances force me to stay at this job for the time being, so I just put in my time and minimal effort required.

Okay wow, what a ramble...anyway, I do understand what you said here.



Correct in that there are only finitely many emotions (that I know of, anyways). However, there are so many reasons to feel emotions in so many situations, that if you want to guess an emotion with a reason for a given situation, there may as well be infinitely many choices.

Maybe I should make a more apt analogy: I am thinking of an integer between 1 and 10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10. Can you guess what it is?



I see your point, but still disagree that it is difficult to find an experience similar enough to assume others might react as you did. You won't hit it every time, by any means, but as you do it more often, you get better at it. Weird that practicing such a thing actually improves the ability, but I have found it to be the case.

And again, I have no relatable experiences to cross check with to be able to guess a number. The largest part of empathizing is the finding of the connection or correlation between what someone else is experiencing and something you have experienced.




I didn't say that I was unable to empathize with anyone
Sorry didn't mean to imply that you were. I was just speaking of people in general, so I said "If we were unable to empathize" . I apologize if it wa unclear

to my recollection, it has caused more pain and misunderstanding than not.

Of course, if you're right, then that could explain why I oftentimes can't seem to keep a girlfriend to save my god damn life.

I would, of course, need some specific examples to give my thoughts on this. I understand if you don't want to get into that though, so suffice it to say I am sorry you had bad experiences, and that yes, I find empathy very important in romantic relationships.



Then why has empathy been a failure for me?
But then why does empathy seem not to work that well for me?



I can't say without knowing the specific circumstances surrounding such failures. Sometimes, someone's life experiences are simply too foreign or outside of one's own to relate and make those connections.

It is also possible, like in your "guess the number" examples, that you are trying to simply guess what someone is feeling from a list of emotions, rather than searching your own experiences for a similar situation to relate it to.


But I don't think that people in general have that much in common. Again, I could be wrong about that.



I think the human experience as a whole is "much in common". Sometimes taking it down to the basics is all thats required: "He has fears, hopes, goals, he eats and sleeps, he is someone's son/father/sibling/friend just like me"

Like I said, at this point, there isn't much that I wouldn't give to not know.

It occurred to me earlier today that if the reason for all of this shit here (and at the IIDB) is only because of something that I do or don't do, then what if similar communcation issues arise irl? What if I stroll into a classroom 10 years from now and literally no one seems capable of understanding what I'm saying? What if I'm unable to communicate with anyone whatsoever?

The thought of that terrifies me...I'd probably kill myself.

I don't think that will happen, but will explain in a different post because I am on the phone now.

[Goliath]

I will need to get back to you on this. I am currently posting under the influence of Darvocet and don't trust my ability to read an understand that thread right now.


Understood.



That is entirely understandable if that is the case. I work for the most unethical and stupid businesspeople on the planet, who bungled their way into some great staff and whose product is amazing, when it works. I used to email, call, write memos, cry, yell, be unable to sleep at night, worry and make myself sick to my stomach in an effort to make him "get it" and benefit the company, the customers and my staff. After 4 years, I finally I said "fuck it" and now the company is in a hole too large to get out of, but I am stress free because I don't care anymore. Circumstances force me to stay at this job for the time being, so I just put in my time and minimal effort required.

Okay wow, what a ramble...anyway, I do understand what you said here.



I'm sorry that your job is so crappy. I've often thought of just "not caring" anymore, but then....why would I come here?

I really want to like you people. I honestly do. But it's not easy.



I see your point, but still disagree that it is difficult to find an experience similar enough to assume others might react as you did.



For me, it oftentimes is. If I were in dantonac's position in our latest exchange, there's a pretty decent chance that I would've responded to "you are a waste of my time" with "That may be. Sorry for wasting your time."

But it doesn't seem that he felt that way. So how am I supposed to know how he feels? Empathy might not work.



You won't hit it every time, by any means, but as you do it more often, you get better at it. Weird that practicing such a thing actually improves the ability, but I have found it to be the case.



And again, our experiences differ...attempting empathy is a complete crapshoot for me. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And over time, I haven't found any increase in the probability of success.



The largest part of empathizing is the finding of the connection or correlation between what someone else is experiencing and something you have experienced.



But the problem is in reactions. Given a situation and two people, the two people may react radically different in said situation.

[QUOTE]

I didn't say that I was unable to empathize with anyone
Sorry didn't mean to imply that you were.



No problem. Thank you.



I would, of course, need some specific examples to give my thoughts on this.



If you're talking about romantic relationships, then that's the thing: Every time I get dumped, I'm never able to find out why! Which basically means that when it comes to dealing with maintainance issues in romantic relationships, I may as well be about 13 years old. :( All that I seem to do is hurt people.



[QUOTE]

Sometimes, someone's life experiences are simply too foreign or outside of one's own to relate and make those connections.



Yep, and that may be the problem.



It is also possible, like in your "guess the number" examples, that you are trying to simply guess what someone is feeling from a list of emotions, rather than searching your own experiences for a similar situation to relate it to.



I don't think so...like I said, the problem may not be in the situations, but the reactions.



I think the human experience as a whole is "much in common". Sometimes taking it down to the basics is all thats required: "He has fears,



But may or may not fear the same things I do.



hopes,



But may or may not hope for even similar things that I hope for.



goals,



That may or may not have nothing to do with (or, maybe even oppose) mine.



he eats



But may or may not eat the same things as I do.



and sleeps,



But may or may not sleep at the same time(s) or as much/little as I do.



he is someone's son/father/sibling/friend just like me"



Is he? What makes him just like me? I'm honestly curious.



I don't think that will happen,



I hope you're right.


but will explain in a different post because I am on the phone now.

Understood. I've had to break from posting twice to hear two damn voicemails from the same political candidate. :madrant:

[maddog]

Hi Goliath and LadyShea,
I have been reading through this thread. I have especially appreciated the exchanges you two have been having in the later pages of the thread.

For myself, I find communication between human beings to be one of the most important, and yet most difficult, activities we undertake. Communications are fraught with land mines and other things that can derail understanding.

Speaking again for myself alone, I find that my relationship with my therapist has helped me a great deal with my communication difficulties. And believe me, I have plenty. Therapy has provided useful insights into where my communications have gone wrong. Drugs (Zoloft) also help.

I think LadyShea is right, that empathy is important -- to morals, to communication, to understanding. Timothy J. Miller, in his book "How to Want What You Have," talks about "compassion" as one of the foundations for greater happiness. He suggests ideas and exercises for how to practice compassion. One of the mantras he suggests thinking of is that "most people want more or less the same things for more or less the same reasons." The ability to step into someone else's shoes, and gauge one's own feelings in the same situation, helps us understand one another. It's not always an easy thing to do, but I think that cultivating that skill improves our chances of actual understanding.

And, based on my own personal experience, I highly recommend therapy. For example, it has helped me get over some very deep-seated angers I have had with my family, so that I was able to establish a much-improved relationship with my mom for the last 4-5 years before she died. I don't have to have regrets over that, thank goodness!

Goliath,
As many others here have said, I like and admire you. You can take that to the bank. Hang in.

maddog
#39

[HelenM]

Hi Goliath,

Yesterday you posted this:

Okay, seebs, since you seem hellbent on keeping me from posting a comment on your blog, I'll say it here, where you can't censor me:

[...]



(For clarity I have quoted only the part of your post that I wish to comment upon)

I know that seebs commented on problems posting to his blog after you wrote this. However I want to disregard what he said for purposes of this post, since you didn't have any information from him about blog posting problems when you wrote the above.

Having observed that you could not post to seebs' blog, it is possible that seebs had deliberately prevented you from posting a comment on his blog.

It is also possible that he had not intentionally prevented you from posting to his blog, even though you were prevented from posting to it.

So, there are two possibilities - your inability to post a comment on seebs blog was intentionally caused by him, or it was not.

In your response to seebs, quoted above, you mentioned that one of these two possibilities seemed to be happening.

Did you consider the other possibility? Was there a reason you didn't mention that one also in your response to seebs?

If i had found myself unable to post on seebs blog yesterday I would probably have posted in his thread just as you did and I would probably have made reference to my inability to post in his thread. But rather than saying "you seem hellbent on keeping me from posting a comment in your blog" I would have said said something more like "for some reason I can't post comments to your blog, seebs, so I'm posting them here instead". Because the existence of two possibilities would have prevented one from seeming likely enough to me that I would post about it and not the other possibility. If I had chosen to mention one possibility I would have mentioned the other also.

I would be interested to read any comments you have regarding the difference between how you responded to seebs (in the above quote of yours) and how I would have responded.

Helen

[livius drusus]

I've just caught up on the rest of forum. At this point, I don't think this thread is helping at all and I know my previous comments in this post certainly won't help.

Goliath, please consider seeking professional help now for real. The way you felt last night looks to me like a very bad thing and I am seriously concerned. I know I'm not the only one either.

[ApostateAbe]

I second the suggestion for therapy or some kind of counselor. There is no shame in it. I have seen a therapist, and it helps.

Do you have these sorts of interpersonal problems in face-to-face relations as well? If not, then the problem could be that customs are a lot different on the web, but you treat it as if it were face-to-face. People are a lot more frank with their opinions online. And can be hard to evaluate intent, because the non-verbal cues are not there. If the problem is just online, then you just need to break your habits and lower your defenses--problem solved. But if you have these sorts of problems everywhere, then you really need some outside guidance.

[Goliath]

So, there are two possibilities - your inability to post a comment on seebs blog was intentionally caused by him, or it was not.


Correct.



Did you consider the other possibility?



Yes.



Was there a reason you didn't mention that one also in your response to seebs?



Because of the heated exchanges between seebs and I in the past, the one that I mentioned seemed to be more likely. Apparently it wasn't. So be it.

[Goliath]

I'm doing better today, in fact I'm feeling more or less normal (except for a very slight headache which is now almost completely gone).

While dealing with some crap and turmoil during graduate school (which is completely unrelated to this thread, so I'll leave it out), my advisor (who is the most brilliant man I know) once told me that "You've got to assume the best about people. Anything else makes you miserable." Sometime between last night and early this afternoon, I think I've begun to realize what's wrong with me: I've forgotten to think the best of people.

I'm sorry for any hurt that I've caused any of you.

[HelenM]

Thanks for your response to my questions, Goliath. I'm glad to hear you're doing better today and your headache is almost gone.

take care
Helen

[ApostateAbe]

I'm doing better today, in fact I'm feeling more or less normal (except for a very slight headache which is now almost completely gone).

While dealing with some crap and turmoil during graduate school (which is completely unrelated to this thread, so I'll leave it out), my advisor (who is the most brilliant man I know) once told me that "You've got to assume the best about people. Anything else makes you miserable." Sometime between last night and early this afternoon, I think I've begun to realize what's wrong with me: I've forgotten to think the best of people.

I'm sorry for any hurt that I've caused any of you. Goliath, I wish you all the best. I'll back up what your advisor said. Everything turns out better when I assume the best in those I disagree with, even when they assume the worst in me. If it turns out their character is worse than I assumed, then no damage has been done regardless.

It is my belief that something is very wrong if you get physically ill from talking to people. If you get nausea or stomach problems from arguments, then there is something wrong with the way you are going about it.

[Goliath]

Thanks for your response to my questions, Goliath. I'm glad to hear you're doing better today and your headache is almost gone.

take care
Helen

Thanks, Helen.

[Goliath]

It is my belief that something is very wrong if you get physically ill from talking to people. If you get nausea or stomach problems from arguments, then there is something wrong with the way you are going about it.

You're right. I just wish I wasn't so stupid as to take a step back earlier rather than continuing to push into the fray.

[livius drusus]

Did that professor have salt-and pepper hair, a neat beard, a sweater-vest and a pipe, by any chance? Because he sounds all wise and stuff. :)

Take care of yourself and feel better.

[beyelzu]

I'm doing better today, in fact I'm feeling more or less normal (except for a very slight headache which is now almost completely gone).

While dealing with some crap and turmoil during graduate school (which is completely unrelated to this thread, so I'll leave it out), my advisor (who is the most brilliant man I know) once told me that "You've got to assume the best about people. Anything else makes you miserable." Sometime between last night and early this afternoon, I think I've begun to realize what's wrong with me: I've forgotten to think the best of people.

I'm sorry for any hurt that I've caused any of you.


sorry I batied you when you pissed me off.


I am so willing to completely let this shit go, if you are.


Deal?

[Goliath]

Did that professor have salt-and pepper hair, a neat beard, a sweater-vest and a pipe, by any chance? Because he sounds all wise and stuff. :)


LOL...no, he's in his late 30's, has blonde hair, usually either has some stubble on his face or is shaven (although he once had a goatee...his wife didn't like it, though), and he dresses at least as casually as I do. In fact, he often wears shirts with holes in them...one of our former students (who moved on to grad school at NorthEastern) once remarked that he walked into Calculus class looking like he "just put up dry-wall" (from all the chalk dust from the other class that he just got done teaching).

Take care of yourself and feel better.

I'll try.

[Goliath]

sorry I batied you when you pissed me off.


I am so willing to completely let this shit go, if you are.


Deal?

Deal. :)

[Scotty]

I am glad you are doing better too.

I have a tendency to think that people have the best of intentions. This can be both a good and bad thing.

When dealing with my wife and her fairly paranoid tendency, she has found that you can look at the good side too, and I tell her what the person _could_ mean instead of the what she thinks it means. Sometimes I am right, sometimes she is right (sometimes they _are_ out to get you :) ).

I get taken advantage of a lot, because I give them (anybody) the benefit of the doubt. But, once you lose my trust, you can almost never get it back.

I think having a little skeptical trust is a good thing ;)

-Scott

[Goliath]

I am glad you are doing better too.

Thanks.



I give them (anybody) the benefit of the doubt. But, once you lose my trust, you can almost never get it back.



I used to be that way. I wish I knew when or how I changed.

[beyelzu]

goliath,


please check your pms.

[Goliath]

goliath,


please check your pms.

I did, thanks...sorry for not getting to it earlier--the board suddenly went from "Normal" to "Slower than frozen molasses"...thankfully, everything's back to normal, now. If you didn't get my reply, let me know.

[beyelzu]

goliath,


please check your pms.

I did, thanks...sorry for not getting to it earlier--the board suddenly went from "Normal" to "Slower than frozen molasses"...thankfully, everything's back to normal, now. If you didn't get my reply, let me know.
got it, thanks for the response.

[Corona688]

I'm doing better today, in fact I'm feeling more or less normal (except for a very slight headache which is now almost completely gone).

While dealing with some crap and turmoil during graduate school (which is completely unrelated to this thread, so I'll leave it out), my advisor (who is the most brilliant man I know) once told me that "You've got to assume the best about people. Anything else makes you miserable." Sometime between last night and early this afternoon, I think I've begun to realize what's wrong with me: I've forgotten to think the best of people.

I'm sorry for any hurt that I've caused any of you. If you happen to see this, I'm glad you're feeling better. Also, thank you.

[LadyShea]

I am glad you are feeling better :)

[Nil Desperandum]

I'd like to think I helped this along somehow, but I'm glad the realizations you have made, Goliath, and thank you LadyShea for conversing with him!
It warms my heart.

[pescifish]

Glad things are better today, Goliath.

[seebs]

I am very glad to hear you're doing better.

I would definitely stick with the recommendation to look into counseling. There's a very strong similarity between the way some people stop taking antibiotics when they feel better, and the way people sometimes decide not to bother going to a counselor because they feel a bit better... If nothing else, it'd be nice to know what was going on.

But don't look the gift horse in the mouth too much. Feeling better is not a trivial thing at all.

[Ex-zombie]

Goliath,

Glad to hear you are feeling better. Hang in there.

[Petra]

Heya, Goliath.


I haven't read this thread, which I didn't do intentionally, and i'm not going to - but! And i know this is off-topic to the OP, but I know it's more than likely moved well away from the OP by now, and I'm just wondering if you have had your hearing tested in, I dunno, say the last year? Please don't take offense to that. I'm asking because I care about you. :yup:

[Goliath]

And i know this is off-topic to the OP, but I know it's more than likely moved well away from the OP by now,

Well....not a whole hell of a lot, no.


and I'm just wondering if you have had your hearing tested in, I dunno, say the last year?

No, I haven't had my hearing tested in awhile.

Out of curiosity, why do you ask?

Or do you mean hearing as in hearing what other people have to say on this board?

:?

[Petra]

No, I haven't had my hearing tested in awhile.

Out of curiosity, why do you ask?

Or do you mean hearing as in hearing what other people have to say on this board?

:?

No, I meant physically hearing.

I ask because you complained about the guy in the PNAC video mumbling and not being able to hear him properly. I dunno. Maybe it's just that my ear is trained to mumbling Englishmen, but I wondered if there were registers you couldn't hear properly and just thought to ask.


PS. Sorry if I derailed a thread I haven't even read. Ironically, I didn't post in the other thread because I didn't want to derail. Go figure! :giggle:

Well...back to this thread as it was. Sorry about that. :wave:

[Goliath]

No, I meant physically hearing.

I ask because you complained about the guy in the PNAC video mumbling and not being able to hear him properly. I dunno. Maybe it's just that my ear is trained to mumbling Englishmen, but I wondered if there were registers you couldn't hear properly and just thought to ask.

What?

:D

Okay, now a more serious reply:

Ah yes, that whole "referring to something in another thread" idea... :doh:

It has been quite some time since I've had my hearing checked. However, it's not that I couldn't hear the mumbling Englishman, it's just that I couldn't make out some of his mumblings...probably because I'm not used to listening to mumbling Englishmen.

[Petra]

...probably because I'm not used to listening to mumbling Englishmen.

And that could very well be the case.

[mumsy mode] but it's always a good idea to get one's hearing checked from time to time. :) [/mumsy mode]