Wee folk unearthed

[pzmyers]

So, how come no one here is talking about Homo floresiensis (http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/homo_floresiensis/)?

http://pharyngula.org/images/homo_floresiensis.jpg http://pharyngula.org/images/flores_reconstruction.jpg

You don't think 3-foot tall people hunting pygmy elephants on an exotic tropical island inhabited by giant lizards is interesting, or something?

[The Lone Ranger]

Interesting how common it is for species of (relatively) large mammals that're isolated on islands to become dwarfed, isn't it? I understand there's a real chance of extracting some DNA from some of the bones -- it would be fascinating indeed to get some idea of how close they were to us.


It seems that we've finally located Frodo's great-great-grandfather!


Cheers,

Michael

[wildernesse]

RA already told me about this AND pygmy elephants, and something else random about fish and placentas. But he got aggravated with my silly comments about wanting a pygmy elephant for a pet and asking about the fish being our cousins. :(

Sometimes it's like he doesn't remember he married a monkey. :dancmonk:

[livius drusus]

I heard the story on NPR during rush hour traffic today and yes, I think 3-foot tall people hunting pygmy elephants on an exotic tropical island inhabited by giant lizards is fantastically interesting. I love that they called the first skeleton Hobbit. I love that the current residents have memories of ancestral tales of tiny people living in caves and I love that they're excavating the caves next year.

God, I want a pygmy elephant for a pet so badly.

[LadyShea]

I think it's very interesting, but I have simply been reading on it as I have nothing intelligent to say about it except "I like the little Hobbit people".

[wade-w]

Interesting how common it is for species of (relatively) large mammals that're isolated on islands to become dwarfed, isn't it?

A couple of months ago I saw something about remains of pygmy mammoths being found on an island off the coast of California. Apparently they lasted much longer than their wooly cousins on the mainland before going extinct.

I'm sure you know a lot more about this than I do, but as I understand it in an isolated environment such as an island resources are scarcer than in a typical mainland environment. Thus smaller individuals who require fewer resources will be selected for, leading to dwarfism.

[LadyShea]

A couple of months ago I saw something about remains of pygmy mammoths being found on an island off the coast of California. Apparently they lasted much longer than their wooly cousins on the mainland before going extinct.


Oooh thats ounds so cool and something I want to learn about. I wonder if they have any pygmy mammoth fossils displayed somewhere :: off to Google

[The Lone Ranger]

Interesting how common it is for species of (relatively) large mammals that're isolated on islands to become dwarfed, isn't it?

A couple of months ago I saw something about remains of pygmy mammoths being found on an island off the coast of California. Apparently they lasted much longer than their wooly cousins on the mainland before going extinct.

I'm sure you know a lot more about this than I do, but as I understand it in an isolated environment such as an island resources are scarcer than in a typical mainland environment. Thus smaller individuals who require fewer resources will be selected for, leading to dwarfism.

Yeah, that's one of the most common interpretations -- dwarfism in mammals as a way of getting by on fewer resources (we mammals need a lot of food to keep ourselves going; it's the price we pay for having such high metabolic rates). Pygmy elephants, hippos, rhinos, mammoths (which may have survived up until just a couple thousand years ago -- within historical times), and now hominids are all known. I seem to recall that there have even been a few pygmy dinosaur fossils found in areas that are thought to have once been oceanic islands.

Interestingly, with reptiles it seems to be just the opposite: it's on islands where you find most of the really big modern-day reptiles. Think of the Galapagos tortoises and the Komodo dragon. Basically, reptiles don't need nearly as much food as mammals of the same size do, so they're not so food-limited when it comes to how big they can get. And there are advantages to being big (fewer things can hurt you, for one; also, bigger animals tend to be more energy efficient). Komodo dragons are basically just king-sized lizards, but they've been known to attack and kill full-grown humans.

Cheers,

Michael

[JoeP]

Well I for one am obsessing with thisYet there are hints H. floresiensis could have lived on much later than this. The myths say Ebu Gogo were alive when Dutch explorers arrived a few hundred years ago and the very last legend featuring the mythical creatures dates to 100 years ago.

But Henry Gee, senior editor at Nature magazine, goes further. He speculates that species like H.floresiensis might still exist, somewhere in the unexplored tropical forest of Indonesia.

[JoeP]

I was going to throw in some discussion of prehistoric humans living with clearly-different but clearly-sentient species, and how that might be linked to many of the myths of elves, dwarves, giants and all the rest. But I think it's been raised in your blog comments.

[ceptimus]

There are some interesting issues raised here regarding the legal status of other primates. Richard Dawkins pointed out in one of his books that if the 'missing links' between humans and chimpanzees were still around, then it would cause us profound moral problems (maybe) concerning the point at which murder became mere animal killing.

A related topic is Ring Species (http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/ring_species.html) the Herring Gull / Lesser Black Backed Gull being probably the best known.

[LadyShea]

I was going to throw in some discussion of prehistoric humans living with clearly-different but clearly-sentient species, and how that might be linked to many of the myths of elves, dwarves, giants and all the rest. But I think it's been raised in your blog comments.


That was one of my first thoughts, Joe, and an interesting part of the discussion. How cool is it that some of our myths and legends might very well have been based on fact? I love it!

[JoeP]

I have since found this article at Nature (http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041025/full/041025-2.html) which goes right to the heart of it.
If it turns out that the diversity of human beings was always high, remained high until very recently and might not be entirely extinguished, we are entitled to question the security of some of our deepest beliefs. Will the real image of God please stand up?

[Johnny Pneumatic]

I have since found this article at Nature (http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041025/full/041025-2.html) which goes right to the heart of it.
If it turns out that the diversity of human beings was always high, remained high until very recently and might not be entirely extinguished, we are entitled to question the security of some of our deepest beliefs. Will the real image of God please stand up?

Of course this is only a problem for those who believe in god(s)...which is most people. Hmmmm, going to be interesting to see how fundamentalists take it if they still exist somewhere deep in a jungle.

[Dingfod]

Lilliputians do exist! :eek:

[JoeP]

Bump. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4268122.stm)

Scientists are to present new evidence that the tiny human species dubbed "The Hobbit" may not be what it seems.

The researchers say their findings strongly support an idea that the 1m- (3ft-) tall female skeleton from Indonesia is a diseased modern human.

I don't know whether this is just scientists arguing in the playground or is a likely state of affairs. :pout: if it's true.

[Roland98]

Bump. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4268122.stm)

Scientists are to present new evidence that the tiny human species dubbed "The Hobbit" may not be what it seems.

The researchers say their findings strongly support an idea that the 1m- (3ft-) tall female skeleton from Indonesia is a diseased modern human.

I don't know whether this is just scientists arguing in the playground or is a likely state of affairs. :pout: if it's true.

With any major new find like this, you're going to see a lot of different interpretations in the beginning. I find the "brain law" one very unconvincing (and indeed, don't even like them calling it a "law;" it's more of a rule-of-thumb). The archived microencephalic skull is more damning, but additional finds (as mentioned) could certainly make that more unlikely. Looking forward to seeing the research published...

[slimshady2357]

Bump. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4268122.stm)

Scientists are to present new evidence that the tiny human species dubbed "The Hobbit" may not be what it seems.

The researchers say their findings strongly support an idea that the 1m- (3ft-) tall female skeleton from Indonesia is a diseased modern human.

I don't know whether this is just scientists arguing in the playground or is a likely state of affairs. :pout: if it's true.

With any major new find like this, you're going to see a lot of different interpretations in the beginning. I find the "brain law" one very unconvincing (and indeed, don't even like them calling it a "law;" it's more of a rule-of-thumb). The archived microencephalic skull is more damning, but additional finds (as mentioned) could certainly make that more unlikely. Looking forward to seeing the research published...

My sweetie and I watched a somewhat interesting episode of Horizon about this the other night.

Horizon is a semi-good science show in that it beats most other science shows out there, but is still a little too sensationalistic for my liking. For instance the way the topic was presented was like this:

1) "Hobbit" found! Bones of a new (sub)-species of human have been found, it's 3 ft tall!

2) "Hobbit" is just a microencephalic human! Not new species!

3) "Hobbit" can't be just a microencephalic human! More bones found, nine individuals in all, "Hobbit" is a new species!

And then the inevitable final sequence.... 4) Is it REALLY a new species???? Time will tell!

Each stage accompanied by experts that were firmly convinced they were right.

Still, it was interesting. The evidence they mentioned that it's not a new species:

1) "Brain Law", the hobbit should only be 1 foot tall given it's brain size
2) The tools found at the site are ones only ever made by Modern humans
3) The bones and brain size are very similar to that of a micoencephalic modern human

The evidence against that evidence:

1) The law is more like a rule-of-thumb, really
2) Didn't see any
3) There were bones from 9 individuals found, the likelihood that they could all be microencephalic is infinitesimal

I suppose we can only wait and see what develops really, perhaps in 10 or 20 years there will be a better general consensus as to the truth of the matter. Further excavating is planned for the area (though the original site has been closed off) and that may help as well.

Adam

[ceptimus]

I caught a bit of that Horizon program.

Wasn't there also something about the teeth roots being a different shape on the 'hobbit' skulls? The premolar teeth had two roots or something - that isn't present in modern humans, diseased or otherwise.

I might have this wrong, as I wasn't really watching - it was just on in the background while I was doing some programming.

[slimshady2357]

I caught a bit of that Horizon program.

Wasn't there also something about the teeth roots being a different shape on the 'hobbit' skulls? The premolar teeth had two roots or something - that isn't present in modern humans, diseased or otherwise.

I might have this wrong, as I wasn't really watching - it was just on in the background while I was doing some programming.

Yes there was something about that and though they only breifly mentioned it, I think your memory of it is correct. They showed an x-ray where you could see that at least one of the premolar teeth had two roots. I'd forgotten about that, I wonder if it's mentioned anywhere else?

Adam

[RevDahlia]

I really want the teeny little people to be real and not just broken big people.

[JoeP]

I really want the teeny little people to be real and not just broken big people.Exactly!

Although we will have to call ourselves "Wendy" ... I do believe in fairies! I do! I do!