Why leave?

[LadyShea]

Why is it that some find leaving or disappearing a better alternative than staying and working/talking things out? Why? It makes absolutely no sense to me. So you had a disagreement or got your feelings hurt or said something stupid or hurt someone's feelings or made a mistake or had a moment of meanness...whoopity-frickin'-do welcome to communicating with other people and being real rather than some plastic mask person. If there is never any conflict or misunderstandings in your interpersonal relationships then you aren't doing them right just the same as if you never had any good times and closeness.

Is there really anything that can't be resolved publically, privately, or by agreeing to ignore a certain person or subject?

You don't like what I have to say? Fine, tell me you don't like it, demonstrate I am wrong, ignore it, try to change my mind on the subject, or whatever but don't just disappear from my life completely for chrissakes!

[Socratoad]

Hi Shea, I do'nt quite know how to answer your query, except to say that there seems (my perception) to be a tendency for many such discussions to more resemble a court-like atmosphere with people lining up on either side to shoot down or refute the other person's perception rather than a quiet discussion such as you and I might have over a coupe of drinks in your living room. I'm quite sure that I am failing to put into words the point I am trying to make, but then my thought process is undoubtedly clouded by my genuine feelings regarding Beth, the missing young woman at II, and other recent occurrences.

I hope that your thread will lead to a little more understanding and not just more people lining up like defence lawyers.

[livius drusus]

I think some people in some circumstances feel that the public discussion is part of the problem instead of a solution. Whether it be because the key issue is so painful it hurts them to delve at all (nevermind on an anything goes public board) or because miscommunication is the cause of enough acidic frustration that they don't want to open themselves to even more of it, or because they have serious misgivings about certain specific people who would doubtless become involved, talking it out may just not be the way to resolve an ugly situation.

I don't know... I have lots of questions about that kind of thing myself.

[viscousmemories]

Hi Shea, I do'nt quite know how to answer your query, except to say that there seems (my perception) to be a tendency for many such discussions to more resemble a court-like atmosphere with people lining up on either side to shoot down or refute the other person's perception rather than a quiet discussion such as you and I might have over a coupe of drinks in your living room. I'm quite sure that I am failing to put into words the point I am trying to make, but then my thought process is undoubtedly clouded by my genuine feelings regarding Beth, the missing young woman at II, and other recent occurrences.

I hope that your thread will lead to a little more understanding and not just more people lining up like defence lawyers.
I hear ya, Toad. But in my experience it's just this kind of polarizing of opinions that makes it very difficult to have a productive discussion about this issue. When people such as myself respond calmly and rationally to volatile emotional situations we are accused of being callous and cruel. Or, in this case, of being like a defense lawyer. ;)

It really isn't that simple. This world is not divided into people who are sensitive to others feelings and people who aren't. I think we're all capable of being both at times, we just have different ways of expressing it and different ways of handling stressful or painful situations.

People who know me well know that I am a very warm, sensitive, compassionate and loving person. However I am very rarely overwhelmed by my emotions, so the result is that in forums like this I often come across as not having them. I hate watching people get hurt. In fact I submit that I have stepped in to try to neutralize it, here and elsewhere, far more than the average poster. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but to point out the irony in the fact that there are people who have left here - and other forums I have administrated - because of my supposed callousness. And funnily enough, that really hurts my feelings. Believe it or not even uncaring monsters like me are capable of being hurt by being branded as such. And I have been more times than I can count.

I would prefer that people not leave too, but I'm more mystified by people who stay in situations that are more painful than pleasant. Of course there's always going to be stress and difficulty relating with others in a forum like this, but after a point if your experience is more painful than pleasant maybe it really is not somewhere you should be.

Anyway this is more of a general statement of my thoughts and feelings right now, Toad. Please don't take it as a criticism of your point of view or a dismissal of your feelings. Although I'm sure it will be read as such by someone. Such is the nature of this medium, I think.

[Socratoad]

vm, on the contrary, I take it neither as criticism nor dismissal, but rather as another probe into a rather delicate issue that is really quite difficult to discuss or even rationalize in a manner that will be of some benefit to all. Hell I really did not know where this might lead when I posted my early morning blather, let alone by trying to respond to this thread by LadyShea. That said, delicate though it is, I cannot help but think that gentle probes into the human condition cannot help but bring just a little more understanding into lives in general, and lives on the boards in particular. I guess what I'm trying to say is that anything that leads to more empathetic understanding and a little less gut reaction cannot be all bad ..... I hope.

[viscousmemories]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that anything that leads to more empathetic understanding and a little less gut reaction cannot be all bad ..... I hope.
I agree, Mr. Toad. :yup:

[LadyShea]

I think some people in some circumstances feel that the public discussion is part of the problem instead of a solution.

Yes, but what about private discussion? Certainly not everyone wants to duke it out in public and/or certain situations don't need witnesses, but how many people leave without doing either? Earlier this year, during a major disagreement, I sent one person the most horrible email (still can't believe those were my words upon re-reading), and was having a "bitch to common acquaintances" war with another person. Both are now resolved through continued communication. It can happen. Had I just left all the boards, or thrown my hands up as everything being eternally unresovable, I would have missed out on all the positive interactions I have had with them since then.

Whether it be because the key issue is so painful it hurts them to delve at all (nevermind on an anything goes public board) or because miscommunication is the cause of enough acidic frustration that they don't want to open themselves to even more of it, or because they have serious misgivings about certain specific people who would doubtless become involved, talking it out may just not be the way to resolve an ugly situation.

Again true, but isn't it worth a shot at least? Is it possible to agree to ignore or agree to disagree, or just not discuss topic A, or interact with person X? Why throw the baby out with bathwater if you like the community as a whole or have productive interactions with others or on different topics?

I don't know... I have lots of questions about that kind of thing myself.

I don't know either, thats why I asked. I am not saying that walking away from a toxic situation is never the best choice, I just think too many people jumpt to it too quickly

[JoeP]

Well, Mrs McShea, why leave indeed? Obviously sometimes people want to leave a certain discussion or not get involved in it in the first place. I know I do that a lot of the time.

But the way I see it is that there are some threads or interactions that feel like personal failings or direct personal pain - too much revelation, as Beth said, or feeling attacked as I think several have. Ignoring those threads is hard - you see the unread highlighting, you have to actively ignore them. Reading the threads and not participating is hard: a reminder of the circumstances that represent pain or failings- the toxic situation, as you say. So it's better (given these perceptions) to ignore the entire board. (I don't experience it this way but I think some do.)

It's encouraging that people say they're leaving rather than just go quiet. That's a recognition of community and caring. (Conversely, writing "this is the last post I'm making in this thread" is so often proved wrong within a day I tend to regard it as posturing.)

The ideal would be to build on this community and caring by moving to a new thread - a chill room - in the same board. Trust and safety under such circumstances cannot be guaranteed or mandated in the rules, but I think it exists here. It would just need to be emphasised at difficult moments. This last paragraph is idealistic waffle, and overlaps with some ideas I'm typing in other threads in parallel ... but I hope it can go somewhere.

joe

[wade-w]

I've been debating the wisdom of participating in this discussion all afternoon. There is a very high probability that this will reopen old wounds that still haven't healed. It's probably not a good idea, but I can't seem to resist cutting my own throat sometimes.

Having left a board myself, I can certainly see the other side. I left after a discussion about the nature of the board itself. When I mentioned that there was a problem, I got three types of responses. The vast majority can be characterized as outright denial. It was all in my head, I'm imagining things, etc. The next largest group of reactions was what I considered to be ridicule. Not a few took the opportunity to make jokes in what I considered a very serious thread. Finally, a very tiny minority acknowledged my concerns.

It eventually became obvious that I was tilting at a windmill. What was the point in continuing? I couldn't even get the majority to recognize that I had a legitimate concern! I already felt that I didn't fit in there anyway, and being told "Oh, it's all in your head" or being laughed at certainly didn't help that. So if I already lacked "productive interactions with others" there, and based on the overall tenor of the reactions I got in that thread I could see that there was little chance of ever having productive interactions, why stick around?

So at the end of my last post in that thread, I said that I would be leaving. As far as I can tell, only one person even noticed. Others may have, but none of them felt the need to comment or contact me about it. I can only conclude that if anyone else even realized I was gone they were either completely indifferent to my absence, or glad to see me go.

[LadyShea]

I've been debating the wisdom of participating in this discussion all afternoon. There is a very high probability that this will reopen old wounds that still haven't healed. It's probably not a good idea, but I can't seem to resist cutting my own throat sometimes.
Well, it seems to me that if you keep bringing it up, it's because it is still on your mind as an unresolved issue...an unhealed wound, that you would like resolved. Unfortunately, wade, everytime it comes back up, you cut and run again.

Before I respond to the rest of your post, do you want to talk this out and hear what I and others think, or are you planning on bringing this up only to tell us you don't want to talk about it anymore?

I, for one, am willing to talk it out in any way you want. PM, Email, hell you can call me toll free. I find it frustrating though to be reminded that your feelings were and are hurt, then shut out of trying to resolve my part in it.

[Corona688]

Most of this I can't discuss, since I was not a witness to the fracas in question...So at the end of my last post in that thread, I said that I would be leaving. As far as I can tell, only one person even noticed. Probably more noticed, but didn't see any point bothering you about it. If you want to cut off contact, they might choose to respect that. Isn't that the whole POINT of leaving a board? To get the people in it to leave you alone?Others may have, but none of them felt the need to comment or contact me about it. I can only conclude that if anyone else even realized I was gone they were either completely indifferent to my absence, or glad to see me go. That's one possible interpretation. I don't think it's inconceivable that people could interpret your cutting off contact as, well, cutting off contact -- if you don't want to talk to them, they might choose to respect that and leave you alone. Even people you like.

[Corona688]

Getting back to the OP, I can definitely say that there are times when discussion simply will not be fruitful for whatever reason. Leaving seems a bit of an overreaction to me unless the whole damn board's against you, but that's an individual judgement.

[wade-w]

I've been debating the wisdom of participating in this discussion all afternoon. There is a very high probability that this will reopen old wounds that still haven't healed. It's probably not a good idea, but I can't seem to resist cutting my own throat sometimes.
Well, it seems to me that if you keep bringing it up, it's because it is still on your mind as an unresolved issue...an unhealed wound, that you would like resolved. Unfortunately, wade, everytime it comes back up, you cut and run again.

Before I respond to the rest of your post, do you want to talk this out and hear what I and others think, or are you planning on bringing this up only to tell us you don't want to talk about it anymore?

I, for one, am willing to talk it out in any way you want. PM, Email, hell you can call me toll free. I find it frustrating though to be reminded that your feelings were and are hurt, then shut out of trying to resolve my part in it.

I only brought it up because it relates directly to your OP, by giving an alternative perspective on the question. Your reaction here is the reason I hesitated to mention it. I seem to recall that on another thread here I gave an overview of my points on that incident, and you ignored it entirely. So I don't know how you can accuse me of cutting and running. If I've ever told you I didn't want to talk about it anymore, it was out of frustration that you were not listening to what I had to say. So when you are ready to actually listen instead of projecting, let me know.

[wade-w]

Corona688;

That was my point. By the time I left, I felt like damn near the entire board was against me.

[Corona688]

That was my point. By the time I left, I felt like damn near the entire board was against me. How can anyone respond to that? :shrug: Can't disagree with feelings, of course, which are valid no matter what, but the statement... If I agree, I'm asserting that everyone IS against you, yet, if I disagree with you, I'm against you. It seems pretty self-defeating.

I think I'll leave myself out of this thread. I have an inadvertent talent for making things worse. :(

[wade-w]

If I agree, I'm asserting that everyone IS against you, yet, if I disagree with you, I'm against you. It seems pretty self-defeating.

I think I'll leave myself out of this thread. I have an inadvertent talent for making things worse. :(

I don't see that at all, Corona. I'm not asserting that disagreeing with me means you're against me.

[LadyShea]

I only brought it up because it relates directly to your OP, by giving an alternative perspective on the question. Your reaction here is the reason I hesitated to mention it.

What is it about my reaction that makes you hesitant? What are you afraid of or worried is going to occur if we have this discussion? If you don't want to have it, then let's not, but let's agree not to bring it up anymore.

I seem to recall that on another thread here I gave an overview of my points on that incident, and you ignored it entirely.

I don't recall ignoring anything, but if I did it was because I was afraid of you simply saying "I don't want to discuss it anymore". I really do not want to hurt you further wade, so I was at a loss. You left the original discussion, in the II discussion you honed in and took personally ONE sentence, out of an entire post of mine, that wasn't even directed at you, then in chat the other day as well you suddenly cut off the conversation after implying that my differing perception and disagreement in the original HH thread was nothing but ridicule.

Now, I see this as terribly passive aggressive on your part. Perhaps I am wrong, but thats the feeling I get

So I don't know how you can accuse me of cutting and running. If I've ever told you I didn't want to talk about it anymore, it was out of frustration that you were not listening to what I had to say. So when you are ready to actually listen instead of projecting, let me know.

I listen to you wade, and I often disagree. As with the II discussion, I feel that you don't listen to me, and instead look for something in my post to take offense with. You seem to take disagreement as some kind of attack. I am not "projecting", that is my perception.

[wade-w]

You left the original discussion, in the II discussion you honed in and took personally ONE sentence, out of an entire post of mine, that wasn't even directed at you, then in chat the other day as well you suddenly cut off the conversation after implying that my differing perception and disagreement in the original HH thread was nothing but ridicule.


I left the original discussion because it had long since devolved into "There is a problem" "No, there isn't" "Yes, there is" "No there isn't" and on and on, interspersed with jokes. I don't recall taking anything you said at II personally. I may not have expressed myself as well as I could have, but all I meant was that I didn't think anyone felt there was any malicious intent on anyone's part.

The chat thing is exactly what I'm talking about. I said some of the responses in the thread amounted to ridicule. How you got that I said you had ridiculed me I cannot fathom. When you made that claim, I cut it off because it angered me, and I didn't want to say anything I'd regret later.


Now, I see this as terribly passive aggressive on your part. Perhaps I am wrong, but thats the feeling I get


Gee, thanks.



So I don't know how you can accuse me of cutting and running. If I've ever told you I didn't want to talk about it anymore, it was out of frustration that you were not listening to what I had to say. So when you are ready to actually listen instead of projecting, let me know.

I listen to you wade, and I often disagree. As with the II discussion, I feel that you don't listen to me, and instead look for something in my post to take offense with. You seem to take disagreement as some kind of attack. I am not "projecting", that is my perception.

But you see, I never took offense at anything you said on that thread at II. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. What I do have a problem with is people who refuse to take me at my word.

If you want to continue this, rather than further derailment let's take it to PM.

[LadyShea]

Check your PMs wade.

[viscousmemories]

Hi Wade,

I could probably tell you this via PM, but I'd rather do it publicly.

I just re-read that HH thread for the first time in many months and it looks a lot different with the benefit of hindsight. I think I understand much better why your perception of the discussion was so much different from mine, and why you were upset with how it went. I can see how you would conclude that I was in denial (assuming I'm one of the people you mean) because I really didn't see the dynamic you were talking about and I repeatedly requested empirical evidence of it.

Since then I have learned how to more readily recognize patterns of cliquish behavior - which were more evident in my review of the thread today than they were at the time - and I've come to realize how problematic it is to try to empirically prove such an ambiguous issue. I regret ever having requested you do so, and I really regret having attempted it myself by dissecting your post history. I've apologized to you for that whole affair before, but only because I knew you were upset - I still didn't see where I had done anything wrong. Now I do, and I'm sorry.

I do want to make one point, though. In every forum I've been in there are people who make silly posts in serious, even deeply personal threads. I know it can seem really callous and offensive, but I honestly don't think it usually amounts to ridicule at all; I think it's most often just carelessness. I was clearly oblivious to the negative impact of that behavior in the early days of the old FF (another thing I apologize for), but I was a new guy at another forum earlier this year and experienced first-hand what it's like to try to address serious concerns with a membership who act that way. And yeah, it absolutely feels like ridicule and dismissal from the group. I don't think it is though. Just my opinion.

Anyway I apologize for perpetuating the derail.

[wade-w]

Thanks vm. I really do appreciate your comments.

[squian]

I write this in bold ignorance of any specific people leaving or disappearing. I think those details are irrelevant to the meat of the OP. Although LadyShea was asking the questions in a highly rhetorical manner, I think the answers are not very satisfying. I actually resent the implication that there is something wrong with coming and going as I please. So let's reconsider the issue from a different direction, "Why stay?"

In fact, I ask this all the time. If I'm at a party where I have nothing in common with the people, I ask myself that question. If I'm working for a company that does not value my contribution, I ask myself that question. If I'm reading a board that has little relevance to me, I ask myself that question.

Just because individuals seek something else does not mean it's a bad party, company, or board. It's just not a good fit. For some people, that decision might take longer than others. Must we lament their departure? Indeed, maybe turn-over has as much value for a board as it does for parties and companies.

On the individual level, is it really so hard to conceive that people find something better to do than posting on a board? Must we all share the same level of emotional attachment to this place to be considered participants?

[LadyShea]

I write this in bold ignorance of any specific people leaving or disappearing. I think those details are irrelevant to the meat of the OP. Although LadyShea was asking the questions in a highly rhetorical manner, I think the answers are not very satisfying. I actually resent the implication that there is something wrong with coming and going as I please. So let's reconsider the issue from a different direction, "Why stay?" In fact, I ask this all the time. If I'm at a party where I have nothing in common with the people, I ask myself that question. If I'm working for a company that does not value my contribution, I ask myself that question. If I'm reading a board that has little relevance to me, I ask myself that question.

I didn't say so, but I was sort of specifically referring to those who LIKE a place they are for the most part, enjoy the people, like the discussions or atmosphere, feel part of the community, or what have you then leave over a single issue, argument, or problem.

Basically, I was equating it with storming out of the house on your spouse while he/she is midsentence during an argument. I have never understood this move at all. It's disrespectful of the relationship.

I do not suggest sticking around places you are bored or whatever, I only meant leaving places you have relationships and friends. Most times, when there are unresolved problems and someone walks, that leaves everyone hurt, bewildered or otherwise unhappy. Sorry again that I wasn't more clear.

Just because individuals seek something else does not mean it's a bad party, company, or board. It's just not a good fit. For some people, that decision might take longer than others. Must we lament their departure? Indeed, maybe turn-over has as much value for a board as it does for parties and companies.

Not a problem, but when the departure is due to some kind of conflict, I think it's better to resolve that rather than storm out in a huff. Many people simply stop showing up because their lives take a different direction, I have done so several times. But I never left with my last words being angry, hurtful, bewildering or otherwise.

And, I consider some of these people family and friends, and I dislike turnover amongst my family and friends, yes. I have had the same best friend since I was 13 for goodness sake.

On the individual level, is it really so hard to conceive that people find something better to do than posting on a board? Must we all share the same level of emotional attachment to this place to be considered participants?

Nope, I never said that. I am discussing highly emotional or even emotionally destructive departures only

[squian]

Nope, I never said that. I am discussing highly emotional or even emotionally destructive departures only
Understood, LadyShea. I wanted to push the boundary of what was apparently being discussed. I think this is important because the general question, "Should we care if people stay or go?" is important for this board to consider. And not just in the emotional context. (If I am hijacking the thread, I apologize.)

From vm's post, I gather that he typically does care -- even when the departure is not the emotional storming out. As such, my earlier questions still stand as genuine curiosity, not pure rhetoric. Restated, is it a problem for FF if people leave or disappear?

[LadyShea]

Nope, I never said that. I am discussing highly emotional or even emotionally destructive departures only
Understood, LadyShea. I wanted to push the boundary of what was apparently being discussed. I think this is important because the general question, "Should we care if people stay or go?" is important for this board to consider. And not just in the emotional context. (If I am hijacking the thread, I apologize.)

Not highjacking at all. I think you demonstarted nicely that everyone gets something different, or has different expectations from their experiences here and elsehwere and I appreciate your contribution.

From vm's post, I gather that he typically does care -- even when the departure is not the emotional storming out. As such, my earlier questions still stand as genuine curiosity, not pure rhetoric. Restated, is it a problem for FF if people leave or disappear?

Well, as I emoted ;), it is a problem for me. I look forward to others' responses.

[HelenM]

I didn't say so, but I was sort of specifically referring to those who LIKE a place they are for the most part, enjoy the people, like the discussions or atmosphere, feel part of the community, or what have you then leave over a single issue, argument, or problem.

Basically, I was equating it with storming out of the house on your spouse while he/she is midsentence during an argument. I have never understood this move at all. It's disrespectful of the relationship.

I do not suggest sticking around places you are bored or whatever, I only meant leaving places you have relationships and friends. Most times, when there are unresolved problems and someone walks, that leaves everyone hurt, bewildered or otherwise unhappy. Sorry again that I wasn't more clear.

Just because individuals seek something else does not mean it's a bad party, company, or board. It's just not a good fit. For some people, that decision might take longer than others. Must we lament their departure? Indeed, maybe turn-over has as much value for a board as it does for parties and companies.

Not a problem, but when the departure is due to some kind of conflict, I think it's better to resolve that rather than storm out in a huff. Many people simply stop showing up because their lives take a different direction, I have done so several times. But I never left with my last words being angry, hurtful, bewildering or otherwise.

And, I consider some of these people family and friends, and I dislike turnover amongst my family and friends, yes. I have had the same best friend since I was 13 for goodness sake.

On the individual level, is it really so hard to conceive that people find something better to do than posting on a board? Must we all share the same level of emotional attachment to this place to be considered participants?

Nope, I never said that. I am discussing highly emotional or even emotionally destructive departures only

LadyShea, with all due respect, it seems to me that your question is not exactly "why leave?", since you do accept that there are various legitimate reasons for leaving. It's more "If some conflict here has driven you to the point of wanting to leave, why not at least try to resolve the conflict before you walk out?"

Practically speaking, I think this is what happens in some cases:a person is finding RL making it hard for them to post on a discussion board and yet they do like being there, so they hang on until something happens which makes them frustrated or angry or upset enough to say "that's it" and leave. For them it's actually helpful that something pushed them over the edge and made them able/willing to leave because they really needed to anyway. Staying and trying to resolve whatever the issue was is not really in their best interests.

I don't think it's a great way to leave, but I respect that some people may need to take their opportunities and go when they are able to go.

One other thought I have is that no matter how much some people here want it to be a community, not everyone who posts here will be equally invested in it that way. Some people here simply won't care as much as others how their posts and/or their leaving affect the rest of the 'online community'.

Helen

[Socratoad]

And here I shall chuck another 2 cents into the pot.

People will come, people will go ...... there are so many reasons why this will be so ..... and yet viewed through the eyes of empathy all I can say is that I sincerely hope that leavings are not painful :( for all concerned.

[LadyShea]

LadyShea, with all due respect, it seems to me that your question is not exactly "why leave?", since you do accept that there are various legitimate reasons for leaving. It's more "If some conflict here has driven you to the point of wanting to leave, why not at least try to resolve the conflict before you walk out?"

You are correct. I was asking/speaking out of my personal feelings on the subject only. Sorry I wasn't clearer

Practically speaking, I think this is what happens in some cases:a person is finding RL making it hard for them to post on a discussion board and yet they do like being there, so they hang on until something happens which makes them frustrated or angry or upset enough to say "that's it" and leave. For them it's actually helpful that something pushed them over the edge and made them able/willing to leave because they really needed to anyway. Staying and trying to resolve whatever the issue was is not really in their best interests.

Hmmm, that sounds highly dysfunctional to me. Why would a person need to create a conflict? Why not just stop spending time at the boards or whatever?

If I need to spend more time at work, I do not start a fight with my husband so he will push me into spending less time at home or actually kick me out.

I don't think it's a great way to leave, but I respect that some people may need to take their opportunities and go when they are able to go.

Sure, but again, why the need for a conflict or emotive departure? Isn't it easier to either A) Simply stop visiting the community or B) Inform people who might care if you suddenly disappeared, that you have other concerns or areas of your life in need of attention?

One other thought I have is that no matter how much some people here want it to be a community, not everyone who posts here will be equally invested in it that way. Some people here simply won't care as much as others how their posts and/or their leaving affect the rest of the 'online community'.

Helen

No, they won't, but people who are not emotionally invested would not feel a need for conflict or a dramatic departure and probably wouldn't have the kind of relationships formed where others would be emotionally affected.

[Socratoad]

With respect to all. Once more Toad hops to the aid of Beth. In her case she
did come back and did her very best to apologize to all.

That was the right thing to do and considering her pain and embarrassment ..... that took guts.

The above has been posted, not as an argument, but rather as a recognition.

[HelenM]

Practically speaking, I think this is what happens in some cases:a person is finding RL making it hard for them to post on a discussion board and yet they do like being there, so they hang on until something happens which makes them frustrated or angry or upset enough to say "that's it" and leave. For them it's actually helpful that something pushed them over the edge and made them able/willing to leave because they really needed to anyway. Staying and trying to resolve whatever the issue was is not really in their best interests.

Hmmm, that sounds highly dysfunctional to me. Why would a person need to create a conflict? Why not just stop spending time at the boards or whatever?

If I need to spend more time at work, I do not start a fight with my husband so he will push me into spending less time at home or actually kick me out.

I understand; I didn't actually mean people create conflict to make it easier for them to leave. I simply meant that should conflict arise when someone is ambivalent about being here, the conflict might make it easier for them to leave - so that could be a reason why some people leave in the middle of conflict rather than at another time.

I don't think it's a great way to leave, but I respect that some people may need to take their opportunities and go when they are able to go.

Sure, but again, why the need for a conflict or emotive departure? Isn't it easier to either A) Simply stop visiting the community or B) Inform people who might care if you suddenly disappeared, that you have other concerns or areas of your life in need of attention?

Again, I was thinking more that the conflict precipitates some departures that were close to happening anyway. Not that posters stir up conflict so they can leave.

[quote]One other thought I have is that no matter how much some people here want it to be a community, not everyone who posts here will be equally invested in it that way. Some people here simply won't care as much as others how their posts and/or their leaving affect the rest of the 'online community'.

No, they won't, but people who are not emotionally invested would not feel a need for conflict or a dramatic departure and probably wouldn't have the kind of relationships formed where others would be emotionally affected.

I see people emotionally affected by posts on boards when there has been little time for any relationship to develop. Conflict doesn't just hurt when it's between people who know each other well - although perhaps that is the most painful kind.

Helen

[LadyShea]

With respect to all. Once more Toad hops to the aid of Beth. In her case she
did come back and did her very best to apologize to all.

That was the right thing to do and considering her pain and embarrassment ..... that took guts.

The above has been posted, not as an argument, but rather as a recognition.


I really didn't want to make this about individuals, if you don't mind my friend. Suffice it to say that others may view any departure differently based on their history, relationship, experience, and knowledge of the individual in question.

[Socratoad]

With respect to all. Once more Toad hops to the aid of Beth. In her case she
did come back and did her very best to apologize to all.

That was the right thing to do and considering her pain and embarrassment ..... that took guts.

The above has been posted, not as an argument, but rather as a recognition.


I really didn't want to make this about individuals, if you don't mind my friend. Suffice it to say that others may view any departure differently based on their history, relationship, experience, and knowledge of the individual in question.

Sorry Shea :blush:

[LadyShea]

I understand; I didn't actually mean people create conflict to make it easier for them to leave. I simply meant that should conflict arise when someone is ambivalent about being here, the conflict might make it easier for them to leave - so that could be a reason why some people leave in the middle of conflict rather than at another time. Again, I was thinking more that the conflict precipitates some departures that were close to happening anyway. Not that posters stir up conflict so they can leave.

I can understand that, but i still don't feel it explains emotional departure posts which are most commonly a big "Fuck you" to the entire community

I see people emotionally affected by posts on boards when there has been little time for any relationship to develop. Conflict doesn't just hurt when it's between people who know each other well - although perhaps that is the most painful kind.

Helen

I am not sure what you are saying. Are you implying that simply witnessing a conflict between people neither known nor particularly cared about could affect one to the point that they depart, complete with a big "Goodbye" post?

[viscousmemories]

Sorry in advance for the length.

Is there really anything that can't be resolved publically, privately, or by agreeing to ignore a certain person or subject?
I've been following this and related threads and giving this a lot of thought the last couple of days, and I would say the answer is a definite 'yes'. There are plenty of problems that might come up for someone in a forum like this that cannot be resolved publically, privately, or by agreeing to ignore a certain person or subject.

A number of people have left this forum for a number of reasons. Some PM'd livius or I to explain why they were leaving, others have made public statements, and most have just faded away. For the latter group we really can say nothing about why they left, but for many I suspect it's as squian suggested: A simple loss of interest in the place for whatever reason. I registered at IIDB and posted 6 times, then disappeared for a year. I don't remember making a conscious decision to leave, I just wasn't enthralled.

I have mixed feelings about the two former groups. On the one hand I like the fact that people feel invested enough in this forum that they take the time to express how they're feeling and/or why they feel they have to leave. It demonstrates a concern for the community that I share - which is to say they see the forum as more than just a two-dimensional chat room.

That isn't a moral judgement. We have a public forum and I have no problem with guests, lurkers, sometime posters, involved posters who don't give a shit about the community, etc. I really truly want people to get whatever they want from this forum. However, I am personally interested and invested in the community here, so I personally benefit more from interacting with those who feel similarly. As such I am strongly opposed to the forum meme that people who make goodbye posts are drama queens.

When I stopped posting at IIDB once I wanted to make a big "fuck you all" post because I felt ostracized and humiliated. But instead I opted only to post a brief statement about my intent to depart and information so anyone who wanted to keep in contact with me could do so. It was both a polite gesture and a simple effort to remain in contact with anyone who wanted to do so, despite my not wanting to be an active member there anymore.

On the other hand, I'm not crazy about getting PM's and/or reading posts that amount to: I'm leaving this forum because you're an incompetent administrator, asshole, and/or otherwise despicable person. Such things affect me personally (I prefer to be liked, oddly) and "professionally" (if it's true that I'm failing as an admin, I want to know how to improve. If I'm a lost cause - as I confess I've been feeling lately - I'd prefer to step down.)

Anyway, sometimes I think leaving (whether in a fit of rage, sadness, confusion, or under any other emotional duress) is a perfectly legitimate solution. The nature of this public forum is such that some issues simply cannot be adequately addressed. For example: In my opinion a public forum is simply not the place for an exploration of deeply personal, sensitive emotional issues. It just isn't. If people want to explore such things here more power to 'em, but you won't see me doing it. I need a safe environment for such things, and that I believe is the almost exclusive domain of face-to-face, private interaction with very close, trusted friends.

Even when I was in group therapy in an in-patient drug rehab - an ostensibly safe, private environment with a very supportive staff of counselors and rigid behavioral guidelines - I never "got real" with my emotions. I didn't even realize it at the time, but when I finally did feel safe (which only happened when I met my last long-term girlfriend just after getting out of rehab) I found myself exploring issues that I didn't even know existed, and finally came to realize what that counselor was talking about who kept accusing me of not "getting real". In short, my emotional defenses were so built up that nobody could get in and I couldn't really get out.

All of which I say to illustrate the fact that a public forum simply isn't structured in a way to provide the level of emotional safety and support that most people require for an examination of deeply personal issues. But sometimes people get in over their head. They mistakenly say more than they intended to or bring more scrutiny on themselves than they were actually prepared to deal with. And so doing, some people realize as much and choose to leave rather than fight what they have good reason to believe would be a losing battle. It makes sense to me.

If I may, though, it seems to me Shea that the real nature of your OP is that it hurts you - like it does me - that someone might rather write you out of their life than work through a disagreement or conflict with you. I understand that, really, but I think perhaps you're personalizing it too much. In the end I don't think that in this context it's usually a personal thing at all.

[LadyShea]

If I may, though, it seems to me Shea that the real nature of your OP is that it hurts you - like it does me - that someone might rather write you out of their life than work through a disagreement or conflict with you. I understand that, really, but I think perhaps you're personalizing it too much. In the end I don't think that in this context it's usually a personal thing at all.

I guess I am still not making myself clear. If Joe Blow posts "Screw you guys, I am going home", and I have never intereacted with Joe Blow, I don't care...door, ass, etc...sayonara....hasta-la.

If someone I care about, or consider a friend says the same thing, and I am included in the "You guys" , yes, it hurts that they are not offering me the opportunity to iron things out. If I sense that my cared for friend, or fellow human being I happen to know, is distressed/depressed/hurt themselves, and lashing out, then I am concerned for their well being.

And, if it is not a personal thing, why the histrionics? Why would someone who doesn't care on a personal or emotional level feel the need to say "Fuck you!". I just don't get that.

*I am not responding to the rest of your post because I agree with and/or understand most of it. Only this last paragraph made no sense to me.

[LadyShea]

I guess ultimately I am looking for the answers in order to attempt to make sense of what is, to me, an alien way of thinking. I make no claim that my feelings or observations are in any way the correct perceptions of the behavior I am discussing....I simply don't get it. Just like I don't understand why my grandma calls me to ask questions about my dad, calls my mom to ask questions about me, etc..her inability to be direct is baffling.

Thanks all for trying to enlighten me, I didn't mean for this to be a debate necessarily, just trying to make connections in my brain.

[viscousmemories]

And, if it is not a personal thing, why the histrionics? Why would someone who doesn't care on a personal or emotional level feel the need to say "Fuck you!". I just don't get that.
Okay, this is the only place where I think we're seeing the event differently because I'm insecure by nature and you are not. When I have felt ostracized in a forum environment it's usually because I have been involved in a thread or threads where I was attacked by some and ignored by most. As a result, even though I had been defended or even praised by some on prior occasions, I concluded that everyone hates me and therefore my knee-jerk reaction was to tell everyone to fuck off and die.

As weird as it sounds, it took me a long time to realize that everyone who posts at a forum is an individual, and that there are a multitude of reasons someone might criticise me or not come to my defense other than hatred or total ambivalence. Reasons like not wanting to continue a thread derail, not wanting to perpetuate a flamewar, shyness of their own, being out of town, not seeing the thread in question, not perceiving the thread the same way I perceive it, etc. At this point I would never make the mistake of referring to a forum population as a single entity. But that took a lot of trial and error at a lot of forums before I came to that realization.

*I am not responding to the rest of your post because I agree with and/or understand most of it. Only this last paragraph made no sense to me.
Excellent, thanks for letting me know. :)

[HelenM]

I am not sure what you are saying. Are you implying that simply witnessing a conflict between people neither known nor particularly cared about could affect one to the point that they depart, complete with a big "Goodbye" post?

Mostly I meant that insults directed at me on discussion boards do upset me even if they are from strangers.

I suppose I'm less affected by conflicts in which I'm not involved, although I am saddened to see people I care about getting upset/angered by posts; perhaps I am less saddened if all parties in a conflict are strangers to me.

I'm thinking that perhaps I should not be trying to answer a 'why' question about something I've never done, nor do I expect to do. I have enough trouble understanding my own behavior!

Helen

[Corona688]

I can understand that, but i still don't feel it explains emotional departure posts which are most commonly a big "Fuck you" to the entire community I don't think that really needs too much to explain. A little "hair of the dog that bit you", so to speak, can be satisfying in the short term. In the long term one might realize you'd mouthed off to friends as well as enemies, but in the mindset of having resolved to leave, there IS no long term, you're g-g-gone.I am not sure what you are saying. Are you implying that simply witnessing a conflict between people neither known nor particularly cared about could affect one to the point that they depart, complete with a big "Goodbye" post? The person provoking another user to leave in a snit isn't necessarily a long-term enemy, it could be anybody. Saying something to a stranger and getting an angry response seemingly totally out of proportion, in some ways feels MORE hurtful, since it's so inexplicable.

[Corona688]

I guess I am still not making myself clear. If Joe Blow posts "Screw you guys, I am going home", and I have never intereacted with Joe Blow, I don't care...door, ass, etc...sayonara....hasta-la. Imagine the following hypothetical conversation:
New User: "Hi!"
Joe Blow: "Fuck you! I've had it with this place! GOOD-BYE! *door slam*"
New User: :eek:

Joe Blow may have good reasons to respond that way for all we know, but these are unknown to New User, who accidentally offends him.

[Socratoad]

I guess I am still not making myself clear. If Joe Blow posts "Screw you guys, I am going home", and I have never intereacted with Joe Blow, I don't care...door, ass, etc...sayonara....hasta-la. Imagine the following hypothetical conversation:
New User: "Hi!"
Joe Blow: "Fuck you! I've had it with this place! GOOD-BYE! *door slam*"
New User: :eek:

Joe Blow may have good reasons to respond that way for all we know, but these are unknown to New User, who accidentally offends him.

Hmmmmmm , that sounds familiar :chin: Methinks it has happened to me :D

[Corona688]

Hmmmmmm , that sounds familiar :chin: Methinks it has happened to me :D When I said hypothetical, I meant it.. If it's relevant I'm glad it's serving it's purpose, but it was not my intention to imply anything about anybody.