View Full Version : Hey, Yanks! There's a big world out there!
Veritas
06-19-2006, 06:41 PM
So. Thought I would throw this out there and see if I get a response.
I've just visited another forum of which I am a member, and there's a discussion going on about men (a poll as to who's the best looking, started by yours truly). Anyhoo. I happened to mention my liking for Totti, Ballack and Ljungberg and the general response was "Who?"
Until...a guy (American) posted to 'explain' thusly: "They're all sports stars, and obscure ones at that." I was astonished. Genuinely astonished. My reply was, "They're not so obscure they can't represent their country at the world's most popular sport, but they are European, so I guess to an American that would equal 'obscure'."
Did I just stumble upon a rare piece of American stupidity or are you lot a rare example of Yanks who recognise the U.S. isn't the centre of the universe*? :giggle:
Seriously, I'm not in for a flame war, or any fighting...just curious as to what's the prevailing attitude in America towards that which is 'other'. Is there much awareness of Europe**?
*Sorry to break it to you.
**Start in America and go East a lot.
Is there much awareness of Europe**?Not really much in the popular culture, although we are very Royal-minded. But not so much naow since Di died, I would think.
Veritas
06-19-2006, 06:48 PM
The man I'm referring to, he kinda gives the impression that if it's not American, it's not important, so...perhaps he's just a bit of a twat.
Oh, and Beth. You can have our royals. We hate them. No, really. In the UK they're seen as a waste of space and money. Oh, and oxygen.
Well, I am not a Monarchy supporter. I don't argree with the who monarchy thing. I'm an American, after all.;)
Leesifer
06-19-2006, 06:53 PM
Oh, and Beth. You can have our royals.
Surely not all of them. There'd be nothing in the newspapers if they all went.
Veritas
06-19-2006, 06:54 PM
Duh, that's what Jordan and the Beckhams are for.
Don't you read Heat, Leesifer?! :chuckle:
SharonDee
06-19-2006, 07:00 PM
Is the sport Soccer (football)?
Veritas
06-19-2006, 07:01 PM
Will. Not. Post. Bitchy. Reply.
Will.
Not.
:chuckle:
Veritas
06-19-2006, 07:01 PM
Oh, and yes it is, SharonDee. :D
Miisa
06-19-2006, 07:04 PM
I might post that reply for you. :glare:
And there are a whole lot of European countries that don't even have royals.
Leesifer
06-19-2006, 07:05 PM
Don't you read Heat, Leesifer?!
Only if I find a copy someone's left on the train or something. I certainly don't buy it.
Veritas
06-19-2006, 07:06 PM
I might post that reply for you. :glare:
And there are a whole lot of European countries that don't even have royals.
Yeah, the sensible ones.
livius drusus
06-19-2006, 07:07 PM
I used to get a lot of strange questions from people about living in Italy. My cousin asked me once if since I lived in Rome, did I speak Roman. Guests would come to stay with us for a while and bring toilet paper and tea bags because they had heard you couldn't find such things in the scary wilds of Rome.
The United States is large enough to make it difficult for most Americans to travel outside of its political boundaries. In Europe, countries are so close to each other people can't help but notice the world outside.
Leesifer
06-19-2006, 07:08 PM
Guests would come to stay with us for a while and bring toilet paper and tea bags because they had heard you couldn't find such things in the scary wilds of Rome.
:stunned:
Miisa
06-19-2006, 07:09 PM
I might post that reply for you. :glare:
And there are a whole lot of European countries that don't even have royals.
Yeah, the sensible ones.
I dunno, they make for good entertainment and you don't have to get all worked up about re-electing them every few years.
ChuckF
06-19-2006, 07:10 PM
Did I just stumble upon a rare piece of American stupidity or are you lot a rare example of Yanks who recognise the U.S. isn't the centre of the universe*? :giggle:
Seriously, I'm not in for a flame war, or any fighting...
You sound like you're from like Massachusetts or Canada or something :ungum:
brrrr!
Veritas
06-19-2006, 07:11 PM
Hang about, I've just found out they have toilet paper in Italy and there's more cities there than just Rome!
ChuckF
06-19-2006, 07:12 PM
I dunno, they make for good entertainment and you don't have to get all worked up about re-electing them every few years.
You know who makes for good entertainment? Your president! What's his name - Conan O'Brien.
Miisa
06-19-2006, 07:16 PM
Conan almost effed up the election. The poor sod probably still thinks he helped.
Royalty serve a purely ceremonial and entertaining function, most self-respecting people who have tasted free will at some point won't submit to that, so I say breed em' and hold on to 'em!
Sock Puppet
06-19-2006, 07:22 PM
Part of the problem may be the year-round cycle of American sports. If they're not kicking a ball between a couple of posts, they're tossing it into a hoop, or hitting it with a stick. There's such a complete circuit of national games to fill up the sports pages that it's easy to be insular about it. The World Cup has only recently been on many Americans' radar at all (seriously, 5 years ago it was almost impossible to find it on bar tellies except for Irish- or English-themed pubs), and it still hasn't come anywhere near as popular as US football (that weird thing with the oval device they pretend is a "ball"), basketball or baseball. About the only time international sports get any serious media coverage is during the Olympics, and Americans are notorious for forgetting what happened 4 years ago -- just look at our elections.
Miachel Ballack -- Chelsea superstar recruit who has played for Bayern and Leverkeusen and won at least two German Footballer of the year awards. Every American sports fan knows him.
Francesco Totti -- Roma star who was thrown out of Euro 2004 for spitting at a ref. Every American sports fan knows him.
Freddie Ljungberg -- Arsenal player who sometimes manages to get put in the game. He used to be a decent player, but now is nowhere near as valuable as 18-year-old Cesc Fabergas. He has never won anything outside of England, and never will. Nobody outside of London and Sweden gives two twits about him.
Veritas
06-19-2006, 07:38 PM
Probably not - then he'd know you can't get 'thrown out' of a football tournament. You can, however, get red-carded and banned from your team's next game.
Shake
06-19-2006, 08:19 PM
Every American sports fan knows him.
You misspelled "soccer".
Wholly Goats
06-19-2006, 08:22 PM
peaches...
What Sock Puppet said. And keep in mind when you address us as "Yanks" a good third or more of us will tune you out. It'd be like me referring to you and yours as Welsh. Those USers who are not "Yanks" also tend to be those who wouldn't be able to recognize a sports star unless unless he crawled into a NASCAR racer.
And, our football is a descendant of your rugby. It probably should be called run'n'passball...but that's how it goes with those athletic types. They're not particularly innovative when it comes to language issues.
You Google that, BDS?
I probably know more about European soccer than 99.99% of Americans, and 99.5% of Europeans. No. I didn't google it.
Totti is currently rumored to be a Real Madrid target; Ballack just completed a 30+ million pound transfer to Chelsea. Even Fast Freddie Ljungberg could probably get a job somewhere, if the Gunners decide to dump him (as well they might).
Scarlet would have to name players considerably more obscure than Ljungberg to stump me.
Ensign Steve
06-19-2006, 10:15 PM
Hang about, I've just found out they have toilet paper in Italy and there's more cities there than just Rome!
It's not that they don't have toilet paper, it's that they make it by pressing together big chunks of pencil shavings. :shudder:
Javaman
06-19-2006, 10:27 PM
Having lived around the world and several years in England, I can say that a big issue is our lack of any news from anywhere but the States. You'd have to make an effort to find any information. In other countries, the news is much more global. I know football because I enjoyed it ... but not as much as cricket! I know, I'm sad... my wife tells me so. At least I don't watch lawn bowls.
Football is relatively popular in the U.S. these days. Fox Soccer Channel (available on most cable packages) is devoted almost exclusively to international football, as is Gol TV (Spanish Language). FSC carries Premeirship, Bundeslegia, French and occasional Serie A action, as well as Argentine football. ESPN has the Champion's League. Gol TV has Serie A, La Liga and every South American and Central American league.
Cricket is rarely covered.
An interesting thing about football fans -- many American football afficianados (including me) are Europhiles. We love watching Barcelona play Real Madrid. We try not to miss a Milan Derby, or a Chelsea - Man U match. We''ll catch River Plate against Boca Juniors. However, we don't care about Major League Soccer.
I wonder how many Westerners follow world class badminton or table tennis, two sports dominated by Eastern Asian countries?
California Tanker
06-20-2006, 04:09 AM
Oh come on, I'm a European and I didn't know who they were.
NTM
Dingfod
06-20-2006, 04:15 AM
I wouldn't have either, even if I were not an Amero-centric ignoramus, I don't like spectator sports and don't follow them.
pescifish
06-20-2006, 10:27 PM
I am fully aware of my worldly ignorance, but I don't think I need to be ashamed that I don't know sports celebrities of any nationality, including those from U.S.A.
scarletpeaches you can be surprised by the description of "obscure" for those celebrities you find fascinating, and I'll continue to be surprised by those folks who assume they know any- and everything about Los Angeles and California just because they see so much shit about the area on TV.
I am fully aware of my worldly ignorance, but I don't think I need to be ashamed that I don't know sports celebrities of any nationality, including those from U.S.A.I agree. Heck, last year, at an end of the year party for cheerleaders, I was talking with the moms. Someone brought up a name like Jeeder or Jeeter, and I asked who he was. Apparantly this dude is a very famous ball player. I was actually made fun of by being ignorant of sports and they all left me and walked away when I stated that I don't much like sports. Tis fine, I played with my kids instead, but I still could care less to know who this Jeeder guy is.
Probably not - then he'd know you can't get 'thrown out' of a football tournament. You can, however, get red-carded and banned from your team's next game.
Actually, Totti received a three game ban from UEFA (I can't remember if he was red carded or not -- the incident might have been caught on video instead of by the ref), which eliminated him from the tournament (although, had Italy advanced without him, he might have been available).
In any event, the guy's an asshole. Unless, of course, one considers spitting in a fellow competitor's face acceptable behavior.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,420892,00.html
maddog
06-20-2006, 11:54 PM
I agree. Heck, last year, at an end of the year party for cheerleaders, I was talking with the moms. Someone brought up a name like Jeeder or Jeeter, and I asked who he was. Apparantly this dude is a very famous ball player. I was actually made fun of by being ignorant of sports and they all left me and walked away when I stated that I don't much like sports. Tis fine, I played with my kids instead, but I still could care less to know who this Jeeder guy is.I'm *almost* there with you. I *think* the guy's name is Derek Jeter, and I *think I know* that he is a major league baseballer, but I couldn't tell you what team he plays for, what position he plays, or how long he's been in (whichever) league. Of course, I stopped paying attention to MLB b/c I never forgave the Angels when they traded Bobby Knoop. (I think it was 1971.) So, there have been guys who had 20-plus-year careers and are guaranteed hall-of-famers that I have never heard of. And I LIKE baseball!
#783
It’s one thing to not be a sports fan – another to be a cultural illiterate. For an American to be unaware of Derek Jeter is almost the equivalent of being unaware of Jerry Seinfeld, Brittney Spears, Renee Fleming, or Phillip Glass. "I've never heard of Jerry Seinfeld -- I just don't watch much TV."
Heck, it’s almost impossible to be unaware of Derek Jeter – he’s one of People Magazine’s 50 most beautiful people (or at least he has been).
p.s. OK. I admit it. I mentioned Renee Fleming because I bet half the people here haven’t heard of her, even though they should have.
Dingfod
06-21-2006, 12:37 AM
You haven't any idea of how few people give a shit about opera singers; way fewer than give a shit about sports; way, way, way fewer than half.
Sock Puppet
06-21-2006, 12:39 AM
That's probably the first time I've ever seen anyone claim that People Magazine promotes cultural literacy.
It’s one thing to not be a sports fan – another to be a cultural illiterate. For an American to be unaware of Derek Jeter is almost the equivalent of being unaware of Jerry Seinfeld, Brittney Spears, Renee Fleming, or Phillip Glass. "I've never heard of Jerry Seinfeld -- I just don't watch much TV."
Heck, it’s almost impossible to be unaware of Derek Jeter – he’s one of People Magazine’s 50 most beautiful people (or at least he has been).
p.s. OK. I admit it. I mentioned Renee Fleming because I bet half the people here haven’t heard of her, even though they should have.
I don't think I'm culturally illiterate and I do know who Renee Fleming is. I don't read People's 50 Most Beautiful People edition because I think it is a waste of time. I find many people who aren't on that list to be more beautiful. I could care less about sports players unless they are locals who do something for the community.
Anastasia Beaverhausen
06-21-2006, 01:07 AM
It's amazing you haven't heard his name in passing, though.
Dingfod
06-21-2006, 01:12 AM
The only reason I know who Derek Jeter is from his appearances on Letterman's show. Otherwise I would be as ignorant of that as I am of almost every other professional athlete.
In passing? I don't watch sports programs and I usually take a shower during the morning news. I rarely watch TV tabloid programs. Most like Jeter would be in the Sports section in the paper...my son always grabs that instantly.
I watch my kids play, or my husband, but I have no interest, otherwise.
I know about some Nascar people but that is only because my friends are obsessed.
Ensign Steve
06-21-2006, 05:04 AM
It’s one thing to not be a sports fan – another to be a cultural illiterate. For an American to be unaware of Derek Jeter is almost the equivalent of being unaware of Jerry Seinfeld, Brittney Spears, Renee Fleming, or Phillip Glass. "I've never heard of Jerry Seinfeld -- I just don't watch much TV."
Heck, it’s almost impossible to be unaware of Derek Jeter – he’s one of People Magazine’s 50 most beautiful people (or at least he has been).
p.s. OK. I admit it. I mentioned Renee Fleming because I bet half the people here haven’t heard of her, even though they should have.
Sorry, dude. I didn't know who Derek Jeter was either. Not everybody is as into sports (or People magazine) as you think they are.
viscousmemories
06-21-2006, 05:19 AM
I've seen that name but I don't know how to pronounce it and I know nothing about him.
I know it's Britney, though. Gawd.
Ensign Steve
06-21-2006, 05:47 AM
This coming someone who refers to Tony Hawk as The Guy from the Tony Hawk Video Game.
Petra
06-21-2006, 05:48 AM
I happened to mention my liking for Totti, Ballack and Ljungberg and the general response was "Who?"
sp, I'm a Kiwi with a strong European connexion. My father was RAF and my mother is Bavarian.
But, I have never heard of these people. Who the hell are they?
If they are sports people, then I don't know them if they are Aussie, Brit, Euro, Indian, Chinese or American! The names are meaningless to me!
viscousmemories
06-21-2006, 05:48 AM
This coming someone who refers to Tony Hawk as The Guy from the Tony Hawk Video Game.
I used to love that game until my nephew beat my score by several hundred thousand points.
I never felt so old.
Ensign Steve
06-21-2006, 05:50 AM
It is an awesome game. :yup:
Petra
06-21-2006, 05:54 AM
The United States is large enough to make it difficult for most Americans to travel outside of its political boundaries.
Emphasis mine.
To a degree. In many places in the US, and especially among the most populated regions of the US, you are not too far from Europe or Asia, or South America or Canada, to experience life outside the US.
NZ is one of the farthest countries from anywhere, and we are still among the most enthusiastic travellers in the world. Why don't Americans travel abroad more? Is it because they simply don't think of it?
Crumb
06-21-2006, 05:58 AM
Why don't Americans travel abroad more? Is it because they simply don't think of it?
We are all slaves to the grind.
Ensign Steve
06-21-2006, 06:06 AM
Why don't Americans travel abroad more? Is it because they simply don't think of it?
:shrug: Could be. There is tons of travelling to be done within the States. Between the west, the south, the northeast, etc, there are plenty of culturally "foreign" places for us to visit without ever leaving our political boundaries. I travel several times a year, but I rarely go overseas (except to Mexico, which is my favorite country, but isn't exactly over any sea). But New York is just as attractive and exotic a destination for me as Paris is.
Petra
06-21-2006, 06:18 AM
There is tons of travelling to be done within the States. Between the west, the south, the northeast, etc, there are plenty of culturally "foreign" places for us to visit without ever leaving our political boundaries.
True, dat.
Had a call from the the States today about a shipment, the guy asked me if we used Dog Sled teams. (like I haven't heard that one before!) I told him it was hot here, like 85 and he was shocked.
Ymir's blood
06-21-2006, 10:52 AM
Pulling the sled in that heat must be hard on the dogs. :(
The Lone Ranger
06-21-2006, 12:10 PM
Most U.S. citizens do seem to be awfully ignorant of the rest of the world.
Part of the reason is probably plain old nationalism. U.S. citizens are used to thinking that they're members of the most powerful and influential nation on the planet -- and so quite a lot of them seem to think that anything happening outside our borders is unimportant by definition, unless it directly affects the U.S. in some way.
One of the reasons it's so easy for Americans to forget the greater world is that the country is so big. This means that most Americans simply don't encounter other cultures. In much of Europe, if you drive for 5 hours you'll probably find yourself in a different country. In much of the U.S., you can drive for 5 hours without even leaving the state you started in, much less the country.
Someone pointed out that calling a U.S. citizen a "Yank" will instantly get you tuned-out by large numbers of them. That's absolutely true.
To most people outside of the U.S., a "Yank" or "Yankee" is anyone from the U.S. In my experience, most U.S. citizens don't know this.
In the U.S. as a whole, the term "Yankee" means someone from the northeastern U.S. Quite a lot of people from the western and southern U.S. very strongly resent being called "Yanks" or "Yankees" -- they'll think anyone calling them a "Yank" or "Yankee" is being ignorant at best, and quite possibly deliberately insulting.
In the northeastern U.S., a "Yankee" is someone from New England.
In New England, a "Yankee" is someone from Maine (especially inland Maine), Vermont, or (inland) New Hampshire -- people from Connecticut, Rhode Island, or Massachusetts are not considered "Yankees" by other New Englanders.
And, frankly, I couldn't possibly care less about most organized sports, and don't see it as in any way a sign of provincialism that I don't know the name of a single professional soccer player -- with two exceptions: Pele (whom I remember hearing about as a kid) and David Beckham.
I don't know what teams played in the last Superbowl or World Series either, and I couldn't possibly care less.
I know who David Beckham is only because I saw (and quite enjoyed) Bend it Like Beckham, and because I hear his name mentioned on the BBC quite frequently. (But the discussions of football and cricket I hear on the BBC are as utterly uninteresting to me as are the discussions of baseball and basketball I hear on NPR.)
I'm not defending the ignorance of the average U.S. citizen, by the way. I think it's shameful, even if it's somewhat understandable.
Cheers,
Michael
livius drusus
06-21-2006, 01:26 PM
In New England, a "Yankee" is someone from Maine (especially inland Maine), Vermont, or (inland) New Hampshire -- people from Connecticut, Rhode Island, or Massachusetts are not considered "Yankees" by other New Englanders.
They're just jealous that Mark Twain immortalized Connecticut Yankees and not them. :smugnod: Incidentally, My great-grandmother was a gen-u-wine Connecticut Yankee, tough as nails and a great fun to be around.
maddog
06-21-2006, 02:54 PM
Reminds me of this old joke:
To a foreigner, a Yankee is an American
To an American, a Yankee is a Northerner
To a Northerner, a Yankee is a New Englander
To a New Englander, a Yankee is a Vermonter
To a Vermonter, a Yankee is someone who eats pie for breakfast
Which leads inevitably to this one:
Political Definitions
Socialism: You have two cows, and you give one to your neighbor.
Communism: You have two cows. The government takes both and gives you the milk.
Fascism: You have two cows. The government takes both and sells you the milk.
Nazism: You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.
New Dealism: You have two cows. The govenment takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and throws the milk away.
Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one, and you buy a bull.
#797
viscousmemories
06-21-2006, 03:07 PM
I know who David Beckham is only because I saw (and quite enjoyed) Bend it Like Beckham [...]
You and me both, on both counts. And hearing the name reminds me that Keira Knightley exists, which is good by definition.
To a Southerner, a Yank is anyone from New England. We sometimes lump all non-Southern Northerners in this group. We also like to blame all of our problems, from over crowding, over development, inflated property values, and high taxes on Yanks.
I've never gone abroad. I would love to, but it is so expensive. It is easier just to hop in a car and drive around in my state or to another state to see a different culture. We have so many attractions in my state that I have no interest in leaving to go to an attraction in another country. We have really nice beaches here, so we really don't need to go elsewhere to go to a beach.
I try to stay aware of other cultures, I watch PBS and BBC, but as a parent, I only have so much time for things like that.
Sorry, dude. I didn't know who Derek Jeter was either. Not everybody is as into sports (or People magazine) as you think they are.
Your humility must disarm reproof.
However, there is this from Pride and Prejudice: "Nothing is more deceitful," said Darcy, "than the appearance of humility. It is often only carelessness of opinion, and sometimes an indirect boast."
Some people are not only ignorant about popular culture – but proud if their ignorance. “I’ve never heard of Seinfeld,” someone might brag. “I don’t watch TV.”
Of course there’s nothing wrong with being ignorant. We are all ignorant about a great many things. But it seems strange to boast about it on Freethought Forum (or anywhere else). I see it all the time, however. Of course I don’t know if E.S. is boasting, but it seems that some people, are proud of not reading People Magazine, or not watching TV, or knowing nothing about sports. Why? Why should anyone be proud of his ignorance?
I rarely hear anyone say, “I’ve never heard of Ernest Hemmingway, because I don’t have the time to bother with novels and short stories.” Nobody brags, “I know nothing of Pablo Picasso, because I can’t be bothered with art.” Yet surely, in reality, more people never got to art museums than never watch TV.
Ignorance of popular culture indicates a disconnection with fellow members of that culture; boasting about such ignorance suggests a smugness about that disconnection.
You have heard of Jane Austen, haven't you?
(I try to work her into as many posts as possible to display my erudition.)
What the hell? I own over two thousand books and have read many, many more books from the library. I read alot. If I don't watch tv, it is because I find reading to be a more enjoyable thing to do. I don't feel that I should cow to social pressure to learn about TV sports when I have no interest in them. Your little flippance is suggesting that you think that I am supremely ignorant. That is fine.
Sock Puppet
06-21-2006, 05:11 PM
I don't see how boasting about one's knowledge of inane crap is any better than boasting about one's ignorance of said crap.
I don't see how boasting about one's knowledge of inane crap is any better than boasting about one's ignorance of said crap.
Good point. The difference is that one involves the pretense of humility -- the other is (at least) blatantly boastful.
But the way, here's the rest of the Pride and Prejudice conversation on the subject:
"Oh! it is of no consequence. I shall see her in January. But do you always write such charming long letters to her, Mr. Darcy?"
"They are generally long; but whether always charming, it is not for me to determine."
"It is a rule with me that a person who can write a long letter with ease cannot write ill."
"That will not do for a compliment to Darcy, Caroline," cried her brother, "because he does not write with ease. He studies too much for words of four syllables. Do not you, Darcy?"
"My style of writing is very different from yours."
"Oh!" cried Miss Bingley, "Charles writes in the most careless way imaginable. He leaves out half his words, and blots the rest."
"My ideas flow so rapidly that I have not time to express them -- by which means my letters sometimes convey no ideas at all to my correspondents."
"Your humility, Mr. Bingley," said Elizabeth, "must disarm reproof."
"Nothing is more deceitful," said Darcy, "than the appearance of humility. It is often only carelessness of opinion, and sometimes an indirect boast."
"And which of the two do you call my little recent piece of modesty?"
"The indirect boast; for you are really proud of your defects in writing, because you consider them as proceeding from a rapidity of thought and carelessness of execution, which if not estimable, you think at least highly interesting. The power of doing anything with quickness is always much prized by the possessor, and often without any attention to the imperfection of the performance. When you told Mrs. Bennet this morning that if you ever resolved on quitting Netherfield you should be gone in five minutes, you meant it to be a sort of panegyric, of compliment to yourself -- and yet what is there so very laudable in a precipitance which must leave very necessary business undone, and can be of no real advantage to yourself or any one else?"
"Nay," cried Bingley, "this is too much, to remember at night all the foolish things that were said in the morning. And yet, upon my honour, I believed what I said to myself to be true, and I believe it at this moment. At least, therefore, I did not assume the character of needless precipitance merely to shew off before the ladies."
"I dare say you believed it; but I am by no means convinced that you would be gone with such celerity. Your conduct would be quite as dependant on chance as that of any man I know; and if, as you were mounting your horse, a friend were to say, 'Bingley, you had better stay till next week,' you would probably do it, you would probably not go -- and at another word, might stay a month."
"You have only proved by this," cried Elizabeth, "that Mr. Bingley did not do justice to his own disposition. You have shewn him off now much more than he did himself."
"I am exceedingly gratified," said Bingley, "by your converting what my friend says into a compliment on the sweetness of my temper. But I am afraid you are giving it a turn which that gentleman did by no means intend; for he would certainly think the better of me if, under such a circumstance, I were to give a flat denial, and ride off as fast as I could."
"Would Mr. Darcy then consider the rashness of your original intention as atoned for by your obstinacy in adhering to it?"
"Upon my word I cannot exactly explain the matter -- Darcy must speak for himself."
"You expect me to account for opinions which you chuse to call mine, but which I have never acknowledged. Allowing the case, however, to stand according to your representation, you must remember, Miss Bennet, that the friend who is supposed to desire his return to the house, and the delay of his plan, has merely desired it, asked it without offering one argument in favour of its propriety."
"To yield readily -- easily -- to the persuasion of a friend is no merit with you."
"To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of either."
"You appear to me, Mr. Darcy, to allow nothing for the influence of friendship and affection. A regard for the requester would often make one readily yield to a request without waiting for arguments to reason one into it. I am not particularly speaking of such a case as you have supposed about Mr. Bingley. We may as well wait, perhaps, till the circumstance occurs before we discuss the discretion of his behaviour thereupon. But in general and ordinary cases between friend and friend, where one of them is desired by the other to change a resolution of no very great moment, should you think ill of that person for complying with the desire, without waiting to be argued into it?"
"Will it not be advisable, before we proceed on this subject, to arrange with rather more precision the degree of importance which is to appertain to this request, as well as the degree of intimacy subsisting between the parties?"
"By all means," cried Bingley; "let us hear all the particulars, not forgetting their comparative height and size; for that will have more weight in the argument, Miss Bennet, than you may be aware of. I assure you that, if Darcy were not such a great tall fellow, in comparison with myself, I should not pay him half so much deference. I declare I do not know a more awful object than Darcy, on particular occasions, and in particular places; at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening, when he has nothing to do."
What the hell? I own over two thousand books and have read many, many more books from the library. I read alot. If I don't watch tv, it is because I find reading to be a more enjoyable thing to do. I don't feel that I should cow to social pressure to learn about TV sports when I have no interest in them. Your little flippance is suggesting that you think that I am supremely ignorant. That is fine.
You misunderstand me (just like Bingley misunderstood Darcy).
I have no objection to ignorance, whether it's about sports or literature. I'm just pointing out that expressions of ignorance can (as Darcy suggests) be an indirect boast. (As Sock Puppet pointed out, I have no objection to boasting, and do it all the time.)
Wow. So I guess the fact that I don't know how to fix an engine is pretense of humility.
What the hell? I own over two thousand books and have read many, many more books from the library. I read alot. If I don't watch tv, it is because I find reading to be a more enjoyable thing to do. I don't feel that I should cow to social pressure to learn about TV sports when I have no interest in them. Your little flippance is suggesting that you think that I am supremely ignorant. That is fine.
You misunderstand me (just like Bingley misunderstood Darcy).
I have no objection to ignorance, whether it's about sports or literature. I'm just pointing out that expressions of ignorance can (as Darcy suggests) be an indirect boast. (As Sock Puppet pointed out, I have no objection to boasting, and do it all the time.)
No, it started with me agreeing with Pesci that I did not know much about sports. Then you started remarking about how culturally ignorant I was because I did not know who Jeter was.
No, it started with me agreeing with Pesci that I did not know much about sports. Then you started remarking about how culturally ignorant I was because I did not know who Jeter was.
Well, I think that it is true that an American who doesn't know who Derek Jeter is has displayed SOME cultural ignorance -- which, after all, is the subject of this thread. So what? I imagine many Americans don't know who Michael Ballack or Francesco Totti are, as Scarlett Peaches pointed out. Some don't even know who Derek Jeter is (Jeter is probably about equally famous in America as Totti in Italy or Ballack in Germany.).
I'm sorry if you think I insulted you -- I was just trying to have an interesting conversation about it.
Sock Puppet
06-21-2006, 05:28 PM
I am deliberately ignorant of the useless factoids spewed onto the pages of People Magazine. Same for most sports figures, other than a few martial arts folks (not many even there). I don't consider this a statement of humility; in fact, I consider it a virtue not to concern myself with the doings of vacuous Hollywood dipshits. If that makes me disconnected from popular culture, I'm okay with that.
P.S. - Jane Austen wrote dialogue well, but her plots were always so boring. How can you stomach story after story about young women and their mothers getting wound up about whom they're going to marry?
One more thing: Beth is in good company. Bingley got pissed off at Darcy, too.
Veritas
06-21-2006, 05:40 PM
At this point I'd like to point out the 'Yanks' in the thread title was a sarcastic reference to the guy I mentioned in the OP, and his ignorance of European football players and a piss-taking response to the common use of 'England' in place of 'Britain' or 'UK'.
But you can all get back to talking about Jane Austen now. Whoever she is.
I am deliberately ignorant of the useless factoids spewed onto the pages of People Magazine. Same for most sports figures, other than a few martial arts folks (not many even there). I don't consider this a statement of humility; in fact, I consider it a virtue not to concern myself with the doings of vacuous Hollywood dipshits. If that makes me disconnected from popular culture, I'm okay with that.
P.S. - Jane Austen wrote dialogue well, but her plots were always so boring. How can you stomach story after story about young women and their mothers getting wound up about whom they're going to marry?
That was my point, Sock Pupper. You consider ignorance "a virtue". At least you're straightforward about it.
Plots are a dime a dozen. Wit, insight, character, elegant writing, and great dialogue are the essence of literature.
One more thing: Jane Austen wrote 6 completed novels. In 2 of them, the heroine's mother is dead; in 2 others the heroine's mother plays little part; in 2 of them the mother is concerned in trying to marry the heroine off.
Just to set the record straight.
In addition, Jane Austen practically invented the modern novel. Her exact contemporary (and avid fan) Sir Walter Scott was one of the most popular novelists of all time. But the novel didn't go his way -- it went Austen's way. Away from romanticism, and toward realism.
Those who haven't read Austen may think that she wrote "romances" -- because the plots of her novels always involved love and marriage. However, she was a humorist and a rationalist, not a romantic.
p.s. I like talking about Austen even more than I like talking about sports.
Sock Puppet
06-21-2006, 06:18 PM
That was my point, Sock Pupper. You consider ignorance "a virtue". At least you're straightforward about it.:rolleyes: I consider exercising discrimination in the information one concerns oneself with to be a virtue. Deliberate oversimplification of someone's statements, on the other hand, is a form of ignorance I don't admire.
I wasn't "deliberately oversimplifying" anything. Perhaps I should have written, "You consider SOME FORMS of ignorance to be a virtue" -- as is obvious form your statement: "I consider it a virtue not to concern myself with the doings of vacuous Hollywood dipshits."
Fair enough. Some might think your idea of "virtue" a bit negative. Is it really "virtuous" to AVOID concerning oneself with Hollywood dipshits? Good grief! Does that imply that those who DO read People Magazine are somehow LACKING in virtue?
Personally, I would call ignoring Hollywood dipshits an exercise in taste -- while "virtue" implies an exercise in moral righteousness. If you want to consider yourself morally righteous for avoiding People Magazine, however, you are simply supporting my contention (and Darcy's) that a proclamation of this kind of ignorance is "an indirect boast".
Sock Puppet
06-21-2006, 06:58 PM
Fair enough; I used the word "virtue" in the sense of "desirable quality," and did not mean to imply morality. And yes, if you'd used the qualifier "some forms," I would not have rolled my eyes. "You consider ignorance to be a virtue" appeared to be deliberately obtuse. As for whether my idea of "virtue" is a bit negative, I really don't give a shit.
It's certainly reasonable to think it a "desirable quality" to avoid doing things that bore you. However (and you haven't suggested that this is your position, Sock Puppet), occasionally people sneer at OTHER people who DO read People Magazine, or develop an expertise in sports trivia. Surely there's no harm in reading People Magazine, or doing crossword puzzles, or playing video games -- or any other such relatively vacuous (but innocent) entertainments.
The old-fashioned Christian virtue was "temperance". We can be intemperate about a great many otherwise innocent pleasures (not just about boozing), and the person who does nothing BUT read movie magazines (or do crossword puzzles, or play Scrabble) should, perhaps, practice greater temperance.
I'll try to be more temperate, after the World Cup is over.
pescifish
06-21-2006, 08:52 PM
ETA: This was crossposted with BDS. It isn't a response to the post above -- I would rephrase some parts of this but I'm too slow and have to go.
I gets me my cultural literacy from reading TV Guide. Not watching TV, of course (since I'm way so far above that! ;) ), but skimming the magazine while taking my morning poo.
Fact is, I'm ignorant of so many things and experience simply because there are only 24 hours in the day, I only have so much money and free time. If I skimmed Sock Puppet's post sometime back there correctly, I agree with him, I think.** For me, staying on top of my job, my daily life, the lives of my family and friends beats out what grabs my attention and sticks in my memory.
** How's that for the ultimate reality of bulletin board communication. :\
Sock Puppet
06-21-2006, 09:00 PM
I gets me my cultural literacy from reading Sock Puppet's post, I agree with him, grabs my attention and sticks in my memory.Glad to be of service. I skimmed the highlights of your post and picked up the important bits, which was the only virtuous thing to do. :wink:
California Tanker
06-21-2006, 10:44 PM
In Seconday School, we had to read Pride and Prejudice.
I did better than most everyone else in my class. I got as far as chapter 3 before giving it up for a bad lot and moving to an alternate book.
NTM
I gave up on a lot of great books in high school. In fact, I doubt I finished a single assigned novel.
I didn't do any of my other homework either.
Austen is the funniest of the so-called "great" novelists, along with Twain.
The Lone Ranger
06-22-2006, 08:58 AM
Everyone has different interests and priorities. As pescifish pointed out, there is only so much time in the day. Personally, I can think of about 30,000 things that have a higher priority to me than watching a soccer, baseball, football, basketball, etc. game, so I rarely find myself doing such a thing.
That certainly doesn't mean that I'm in any way proud of my ignorance regarding such things, nor that I think people who are interested in such things are in any way wasting their time -- we simply have different interests and priorities.
Cheers,
Michael
Quit being so reasonable, Michael!
What fun is that!?
Everyone has different interests and priorities. As pescifish pointed out, there is only so much time in the day. Personally, I can think of about 30,000 things that have a higher priority to me than watching a soccer, baseball, football, basketball, etc. game, so I rarely find myself doing such a thing.
That certainly doesn't mean that I'm in any way proud of my ignorance regarding such things, nor that I think people who are interested in such things are in any way wasting their time -- we simply have different interests and priorities.
Cheers,
Michael
I agree with this and it basically is how I feel. As a mom,I don't have time to learn about things that I don't find very interesting to me. The internet is my only real luxury and even my net time is fading away as my kids get older and want to use the computer more often.
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