Who are your heroes?

[ApostateAbe]

Everyone should have heroes. List your heroes, and if anybody doesn't have a good hero, maybe they can find him or her in your list.

My number one hero is Carl Sagan. He represents all the traits I hope to maximize in myself: knowledge, science, skepticism, anti-superstition, and especially the popular advancement of all those things.

The rest of my heros are (in no particular order):

my friend Clayton
Voltaire
Abraham Lincoln
Howard Dean
Jon Stewart
Matt Stone and Trey Parker
Tom Leykis

[Dingfod]

Maybe that's what's missing from my life, a hero. :(

[ApostateAbe]

warrenly, the Christians have it right in some bearings. Find yourself a hero, learn about him, and when you face difficulties and dilemmas, ask yourself, "What would [my hero] do?"

Here are more of my heroes:

Bill Watterson (Calvin and Hobbes)
Gary Larson (The Far Side)
Normal Bob Smith (normalbobsmith.com)
my coworker Mike

[Dingfod]

My dad was my hero for a long time, he seemed almost superhuman, in strength and in character. So far as I know, he has never wronged anyone in his life. He is a devoted husband and was a great role model, even if not very affectionate to his children (a trait he must have inherited from his mother, who couldn't relate to kids at all), intelligent, a talented singer, good-looking and fastidious about his appearance and hygiene. He can converse with anyone, regardless of background, despite his own lack of higher education. His work ethic is so high, that I can't keep up with him even today, even though he is now 71 years young. There isn't a lazy bone in his body, totally unlike me, a guy who can lay on a hammock all afternoon watching clouds float by.

As a role model he set a standard so high I could never hope to achieve it. There was no better man ever, Jesus would've looked up to him. It is very hard to live up to that image. But, since he retired 6 years ago, either he has mellowed or I have matured or something, but he seems more like an ordinary guy, except for the exception work ethic thing. He no longer cares as much about his personal appearance, wears raggedy t-shirts and jeans with sneakers. I think the reason he seems more like a normal guy than a hero anymore is I found out he makes the same sort of mistakes a lot of us make, bad investments, poor retirement planning, car accidents, etc. I'm just finding it harder to see him as a hero like I used to. I see him more as just my dad, good old Dad.

OK, people I respect a great deal, perhaps even qualify as heroes to me, living or dead:
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
Samuel Clemmons
Nikola Tesla
Will Rogers
Franklin Roosevelt
Isaac Asimov
Carl Sagan
Jimmy Carter

I know these guys and what they have done or written, but I do not recall ever asking myself "What would [so-and-so] do?" during my difficult times. Well, that's not completely true, I've often thought of taking up strong drink and smoking a pipe like Samuel Clemmons when times and troubles vexed me. After all, everyone knows any man worth his salt smokes a pipe or a cigar and drinks heavily... except for my dad, of course.

[ApostateAbe]

warrenly, you do have heroes after all. I forgot to mention Isaac Asimov. He is another one of my heroes. Thanks for reminding me.

[Adora]

Heroes? *ponders*

I'd say Aubrey Beardsley, except he converted.
I'd say Oscar Wilde, but he was stupid enough to get caught.
I'd say Leonardo Da Vinci, but his whole idea of "Bigger Weapons= peace" is just far too stupid.
I'd say Hetty Johnston, but haha, she lost the election.
I'd say Sei Shounagon, except she was a bit of a vapid rich git sometimes.
I'd say Dr Karl Kruzelniscki, except even I get sick of him talking sometimes.
I'd say Toulouse-Lautrec, except his level of hedonism scares me.

*ponders more*

Agrippina II is probably it. She had faults, like the others mentioned above, but her level of ambition simply outstriped it all in the end. Yes, it almost reached the line of insanity (and probably crossed it a few times) but you've just got to respect a woman who was that devoted to her cause, and was that hard to kill.

On a more practical level, anyone under the age of 30 who manages to get published in Australia is a fucking hero in my books. Publishing industry is a bloody joke, and let's face it, generationalism is alive and dominating society like never before.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and any online artists who's work I admire, which is a fairly long list. Here's a highlight entry I'm enjoying now (http://www.nivbed.com/). Seriously, if you want good, crazy art featuring giant mythical bunny rabbits (it's better than I'm making it sound, I swear) go there.

[Socratoad]

In no particular order:

Socrates
Gandhi
Nelson Mandella
Emma Goldman
Eli Wiesel
Albert Schweitzer
Aung San Suu Kyi
Paulo Freire
The small group of french doctors who formed Medecins Sans Frontiers

And oh so many more

[livius drusus]

I see your Emma Goldman and raise you a Voltairine de Cleyre, Toad. Other heroes include my namesake M. Livius Drusus, class traitor and animagus St. Francis of Assisi, imprisoned communist letter writer Antonio Gramsci, Malcolm X, Emile Zola, Jane Goodall.

[viscousmemories]

I don't really have any heroes, but to this list of impressive characters I'll add Vaclav Havel and Viktor Frankl.

[LadyShea]

I have mostly heroines :)

Queen Boadicea*
Margaret Sanger
Alice Paul
Elizabeth I

I'll think of others I am sure

*First century England. Her husband, a client king under the Romans, had died and willed his lands and rule to his daughters. The Romans decided to take back everything, and when Boadicea complained, they had her publically flogged and forced her to watch the rape of her daughters. She led an uprising against the Romans, killing some 70,000.

[Socratoad]

Oh Geez Liv, I damn well knew I would end up leaving some very very deserving people off my list ...... sooooo I add all those you just mentioned and raise you a Hannah Arendt, Viktor Frankl and Solzhenitsyn.

Sometime I shall relate to you a story about Solzhenitsyn. He is one of those people whose tenacity I admire, but could not stand to be in the same room with.

I can't believe how I could have left Jane Goodall off my list. Dammit we are the same age, both adore creatures ...... and I know her, well I used to know her.


And Saint Toad of Assisi ....... help help senility is descending :(

[Socratoad]

Now the list is agrowin ..... vm, I see ya beat me to Viktor Frankl

[viscousmemories]

Now the list is agrowin ..... vm, I see ya beat me to Viktor Frankl
Man's Search For Meaning is one of my favorite books. It's interesting to see Hannah Arendt on your list. Literally the only exposure I've had to that name is in the movie Party Girl, some radical counterculturalist harasses the librarian character (played by Parker Posey) for allegedly deliberately misshelving the books by Hannah Arendt to discourage dissemination of her ideas. I think Google and I will have a peek into her life now. :)

[Socratoad]

Now the list is agrowin ..... vm, I see ya beat me to Viktor Frankl
Man's Search For Meaning is one of my favorite books. It's interesting to see Hannah Arendt on your list. Literally the only exposure I've had to that name is in the movie Party Girl, some radical counterculturalist harasses the librarian character (played by Parker Posey) for allegedly deliberately misshelving the books by Hannah Arendt to discourage dissemination of her ideas. I think Google and I will have a peek into her life now. :)

Yes Search for Meaning brought a lot of insight into my life.

Hannah Arendt need not have done another thing during her entire life other than to impress into my tiny mind that one observance "The Banality of Evil"

Which was her observation after having watched the Adolf Eichmann trial.

Most people tend to think of "evil" as something that is perpetuated by the "other". Its only when one comes to realize that it is inculcated in persons one would never suspect ..... the woman in the line-up at the mall, the quiet unassuming guy next door, the plain talking president, and so on.

There was poor little Eichmann efficiently transporting hundreds of Jews, men , women and children to their deaths in the concentration camps ...... and he thought of himself as a good citizen, good husband and efficient civil servant overseeing the smooth transportation of goods.

Thats what is so frightening about the banality of evil

[godfry n. glad]

Chuang Tsu
Xuan Tsang
Ulug Bek
Eugene V. Debs
Samuel Adams
Thomas Paine
Mark Twain
Alice Paul
Abigail Scott Duniway
John Stuart Mill
Bertrand Russell
John Muir
Aldo Leopold

godfry

[Corona688]

Healthcare is more and more becoming a contest between the system and the patient... It can be very difficult to convince the right people that you actually need medical assistance. Many doctors have succumbed to just being part of it -- "sorry, not my fault, not my problem", as it's far easier to just deny all accountability. They're forgetting that lives could be at stake.

My father actually gives a damn about the well-being of his patients. He provides treatments that other doctors don't consider profitable enough, is concerned about his patients' quality of life beyond the arbitrary and often misinformed standards of health insurance, and helps his patients fight the system if he thinks they've been shafted. He has improved the quality of life of a great many people, and occasionally saved lives by getting them live-saving treatment they were denied. I think he's a hero.

[Socratoad]

Healthcare is more and more becoming a contest between the system and the patient... It can be very difficult to convince the right people that you actually need medical assistance. Many doctors have succumbed to just being part of it -- "sorry, not my fault, not my problem", as it's far easier to just deny all accountability. They're forgetting that lives could be at stake.

My father actually gives a damn about the well-being of his patients. He provides treatments that other doctors don't consider profitable enough, is concerned about his patients' quality of life beyond the arbitrary and often misinformed standards of health insurance, and helps his patients fight the system if he thinks they've been shafted. He has improved the quality of life of a great many people, and occasionally saved lives by getting them live-saving treatment they were denied. I think he's a hero.


For your dad :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Dingfod]

Corona's post about his dad reminded me of a hero of mine similarly inclined, my sister. My sister didn't go to college until she was over 30 years old after a very successful career in the insurance business (drove a Lincoln). She planned to become a teacher, majored in Biology and Chemistry, graduating in three years. During those three years her two sons were born, the older on with lots of allergy and asthma problems. During a number of hospital stays my sister became closely acquainted with hospital staff and decided upon graduation to go to med school.

My sister graduated at the top of her class, was offered a teaching position at the med school, but declined, determined to work in a hospital helping people. She was an emergency room physician with extraordinary skill and compassion. Then she was invited into private practice, or I should say enticed, lured by big money. The hours she put in, becaused she cared so much for her patients, nearly cost her her sanity and health. Now, she is a salaried staff physician at a university student clinic and has raised two fine teenage sons and an adult daughter that manages a music festival. My sister is definitely one of my heroes, how could I have forgotten?

[Socratoad]

Corona's post about his dad reminded me of a hero of mine similarly inclined, my sister. My sister didn't go to college until she was over 30 years old after a very successful career in the insurance business (drove a Lincoln). She planned to become a teacher, majored in Biology and Chemistry, graduating in three years. During those three years her two sons were born, the older on with lots of allergy and asthma problems. During a number of hospital stays my sister became closely acquainted with hospital staff and decided upon graduation to go to med school.

My sister graduated at the top of her class, was offered a teaching position at the med school, but declined, determined to work in a hospital helping people. She was an emergency room physician with extraordinary skill and compassion. Then she was invited into private practice, or I should say enticed, lured by big money. The hours she put in, becaused she cared so much for her patients, nearly cost her her sanity and health. Now, she is a salaried staff physician at a university student clinic and has raised two fine teenage sons and an adult daughter that manages a music festival. My sister is definitely one of my heroes, how could I have forgotten?

warrenly, I do'nt just chuck these things about like popcorn, but some people really do deserve more recognition then they probably get

For your sister :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[ApostateAbe]

Healthcare is more and more becoming a contest between the system and the patient... It can be very difficult to convince the right people that you actually need medical assistance. Many doctors have succumbed to just being part of it -- "sorry, not my fault, not my problem", as it's far easier to just deny all accountability. They're forgetting that lives could be at stake.

My father actually gives a damn about the well-being of his patients. He provides treatments that other doctors don't consider profitable enough, is concerned about his patients' quality of life beyond the arbitrary and often misinformed standards of health insurance, and helps his patients fight the system if he thinks they've been shafted. He has improved the quality of life of a great many people, and occasionally saved lives by getting them live-saving treatment they were denied. I think he's a hero. He is a great hero indeed. Tell him he should run for president and succeed where Howard Dean failed.

[Corona688]

He is a great hero indeed. Tell him he should run for president and succeed where Howard Dean failed. This is impossible, I'm afraid. We're Canadian.

[ApostateAbe]

He is a great hero indeed. Tell him he should run for president and succeed where Howard Dean failed. This is impossible, I'm afraid. We're Canadian. If only your dad wasn't Canadian, America would be safe.

[Zoot]

Optimus Prime
Spider Jerusalem
Tyler Durden
Batman
and me.

[ApostateAbe]

Optimus Prime
Spider Jerusalem
Tyler Durden
Batman
and me. I'll agree with the last three. Go introduce yourself at the Watering Hole (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2). The good old boys don't know you yet.

[Dingfod]

Optimus Prime
Spider Jerusalem
Tyler Durden
Batman
and me.I bow before your greatness and huge ego. Do I have a choice?

[Scotty]

Doc Savage.

[trendkill]

Jean-Luc Picard comes to mind.

[wildernesse]

Hmm.

I think that my heroes would be (in no particular order):

my mother--because she's pretty much superwoman

my dad--because he's an example of calm, cool, and collected (things that a person who is like a hyper kickbox-dancing monkey is sorely in need of)

RA--he's much more generous, understanding, kind, well, I could go on all day, but he's naturally a more giving person than I am in many respects

I don't really have heros that I don't know personally.

[Dingfod]

Doc Savage.
I haven't thought about Doc Savage for about 20 years. I read Doc Savage books back when I was in high school. What a guy!

Wait! I know! That Honda S2000 is your Cord 812 Cabriolet, isn't it? Too bad it doesn't have running boards so you could stand on them whilst speeding through the streets in pursuit of the bad guys.

[Ex-zombie]

Robert Green Ingersoll.

His speeches were awesome. I admire his courage in standing against Christianity.

[Scotty]

Doc Savage.
I haven't thought about Doc Savage for about 20 years. I read Doc Savage books back when I was in high school. What a guy!

Wait! I know! That Honda S2000 is your Cord 812 Cabriolet, isn't it? Too bad it doesn't have running boards so you could stand on them whilst speeding through the streets in pursuit of the bad guys.

You have a great memory Warren! I swear Doc Savage taught me critical thinking.
I have about 80 of the books (the Bantum distribution, not the original pulp magazine) sitting around.

-Scott

[THX1138]

Albert Camus
E.M. Cioran
Thomas Merton
Simone Weil
Dorothy Day
MLK
Gandhi
Albert Schweitzer
Henry David Thoreau
Abraham Joshua Heschel
Marcus Aurelius
Erik Satie
Akira Kurosawa

--just off the top of my head at any rate...

J

[livius drusus]

Cool mixture, Josh.

[wade-w]

Wow. I'm amazed. There are actually two people here other than myself who have read Doc Savage!

Heros:

Voltaire
Marcus Aurelius
Will Durant (If you are at all interested in History or Philosophy, his The Story of Philosophy and The Story of Civilization [the last co-written with his wife Ariel] are not to be missed)
Bertrand Russell
Thomas Jefferson (Yes, he had feet of clay, but who doesn't?)
Col Jim Corbett (Was a typical, though extremely talented, big game hunter in India at the turn of the last century. Later became a conservationist, and was also the world's foremost authority on, and hunter of, man eating cats. One of the first to point out that over hunting of tigers would lead to their extinction. Eventually turned in his rifle for a camera, but did still hunt man eaters. However, he had a rule, that a cat must have shown a clear pattern of man eating; just one or two kills wasn't enough, since that could be attributed to human factors. His skill was unsurpassed, he sometimes hunted known maneaters by stalking them alone and on foot.The Indian Government named a National Park and Tiger Preserve after him, which was highly unusual since he was an Englishman who was there during the Raj.)

[Adora]

Tyler Durden
Awh, I can't resist a newbie with a Noodle Boy avatar. Oh, and this makes you cool. *adopts*

[Zoot]

*adopts*

Mommy!

[Lauri D]

Kurt Vonnegut :bow: Dan is compelling me to give him credit for the introduction. Thanks doll ;)

Hiro Protaginist :D

[noblesavage]

Lance Armstrong
Kurt Vonnegut
Hiro Protaginist
Tanuki
Dr. Jonathan B. Postel
The Sundance Kid

[xorbie]

Ghandi
MLK
Einstein
Thich Nhat Han (sp?)
etc.

[Roland98]

My grandparents
Rebecca Lancefield
Rita Colwell
Barbara McClintock
Robert Koch
Ignaz Semmelweis
John Snow
My high school chemistry, math, and English teachers
Lynn Margulis
Barry Marshall
Carl Sagan
Henry Thoreau
Glen Phillips
John Mellencamp

[Darren]

Ghandi
Desmond Tutu
Noam Chomsky
Daniel Mermet
J.R.R. Tolkien
Margaret Attwood
John Pilger
Edward Said
Mary Shelley
Michael Ende
Anita Desai
J. Tobin (of Tobin Tax fame, I don't know his first name)
midwives (esp. the one who delivered my son)

and loads, loads more....

[Adora]

I forgot one...

David Attenborough.

He's just The Dude in so many ways. I was so happy when he finally put his "No Preaching" policy aside and stood up and said "We've got to try and seriously conserve our planet and stop fucking around". And his sense of humour is so utterly British, as far as I'm concerned, the man is a world-treasure.

Oh and Martin Mills. A not-very-well-known Australian who campaigns for logic and intelligence in education, especially relating to all this Backlash mythopoetic mens movement shit that's infiltrating strategies to try and improve boy's behavior in schools through misogyny and heterosexism. He's been kicked off government committees for telling the truth (ie- that most school time is still spent on "boys", that they take up the teacher's time more than girls, and that girls still suffer worse social problems in schools than boys do) and not toeing the Backlash conservative line. As far as I'm concerned, that deserves r-e-s-p-e-c-t, yo.

[maddog]

What an impressive collection! Though some of them I don't know; I'm going to have to go buy more books ( :eek: :yup: :popcorn: )!!!

Yes, livia drusa (to give you your proper nomen and cognomen :)), I am totally a Marcus Livius Drusus fan. Just goes to show what SERIOUS historical novels can do for you. I owe this one directly to Colleen McCullough.

My list also includes the already-mentioned: Marcus Aurelius, Gandhi, Albert Schweitzer, Isaac Asimov, Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), Margaret Sanger, Robert Ingersoll, Lincoln, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, FDR, Jimmy Carter, Zola, Jane Goodall, Viktor Frankl, Bertrand Russell, John Muir and Eugene Debs.

I can't put Socrates on there, because, as much as he sought to establish "thinking" as a critical enterprise, as heroic as he was about his own death and his own integrity, as much as he tried to keep the powers-that-be honest by bugging them all the time, and as important as he is historically, I'll never forgive him and Plato for the notion of the "ideal" -- that there is something behind everything that is "more real" than the real world we see here. That one idea is so backwards, and its grounding in the important history of philosophy is so influential, that it is the most powerful justification for philosophies which treat this world and this life as chimeras and ghosts, and that some other unseen, undetectable "reality" is more important and more real than the here and the now. I'll just never be able to forgive them for giving intellectual cachet to that notion.

For my list I'd add: Steve Allen, David K. Reynolds, Steven Covey, Michael Josephson, the boy who faced down the tank in Tienanmen Square, Gary Trudeau, Isaac Newton, Galileo, Anton van Leewenhoek (sp?), Michelangelo, Auguste Rodin, Baruch Spinoza, Thomas More, Erasmus, James Madison, Walt Whitman, Jacob Riis, Thurgood Marshall, Robert Goddard, Itzhak Perlman, Daniel Boorstin, and I'm sure there are many others. (ETA: Antonio Machado, yeah! one [actually several] of the subjects of Rodin's art was the "Burghers of Calais," who gave themselves up to save their town, John Ruskin, Michel de Montaigne, Harriet Tubman, Raoul Wallenberg, Frederick Douglass, Sequoyah, Thomas Edison, Charles Dickens . . . and I'm still forgetting a bunch !) (ETA again: Oooh, and Rick Burns, who has elevated the documentary to an art form.)

I've often pondered the question of "what is a hero?" and come away with these musings: One of the most profound things I've ever heard on the subject was said by David Harris, who was an anti-war activist in the Vietnam era, and married for a time to Joan Baez. One of her records included some commentary between the songs, and in one of these interludes, Harris explained the difference between a "hero" and an "icon." He said that people admire someone like Marilyn Monroe because she epitomizes something that most people CANNOT be. They worship her as an idol. A "hero," on the other hand, is someone who shows us what any one of us CAN be. One can aspire to be like a hero, because the heroic characteristic is inside all of us.

Baez herself (who I'd have to add to my list of heroes) said that she never wants to be described as an "entertainer." She strives to give people something of much greater value than mere "entertainment." She never wants to leave an audience with being merely "entertained." That's why she sings songs and sings them in venues that have meaning. That's gutsy. I admire that.

I read a book once upon a time that was recommended by my therapist. Overall it was a very bad book, a heavy-handed allegory written by a narrow-minded religious zealot. Nonetheless, there was one gem in that book. It had to do with a scene in which the protagonist journeys to a high plain where no one ever goes. In this mountain-top meadow, where no human being has ever been, the ground is carpeted with little flowers. These flowers have never before been seen; they simply offer themselves up to the sun, as they have for immemorial generations, and do their best to be little flowers, whether or not anyone sees them or whether or not anyone is there to appreciate them. That idea, to me, describes the essence of one crucial aspect of heroism.

The people that are held up as heroes are the names that come down to us through history: Achilles, Alexander, Caesar, the kings, the generals, the battles. I remember being impressed at Pompeii with the rich decorations in the houses: the tesselated floors, the frescoed walls, the carved furniture, the sculptures, the numerous objects of everyday life that were fashioned so extraordinarily. Can you imagine what it takes to support an upper class that has such luxury? what it takes to allow a large artisan class to be able to specialize in such crafts? One of the things it takes is a sufficient and sufficiently reliable supply of food to permit people to engage in activities other than food production. The success of the agricultural class underlies the success of all the others. And when a society (like the Greek city-states, which were always at each other's throats, and like the Romans whose existence was founded on military might), through its wars, creates the kings, and heroes, and generals, and battles, that form so much of what we learn as "history," that society and that history would be impossible without the continued production of food to support the soldiers, armies, wars, generals and kings. When the men go off to fight, who ensures the survival of a civilization? The women and slaves. THEY raise the food. THEY rear the children. THEY do the basic educating. THEY are the foundation of the pyramid that supports all the others.

I came to the conclusion that the real heroes of human history are almost all anonymous. They are the ones to carry on tradition and values, who transmit civilization from one generation to the next, who make anyone's survival possible. They do it for no glory, for no reward, for no remembrance. They simply do it. They simply "are," the way those flowers on the mountain-top "are," being the best little flowers they can be, whether or not anyone sees, whether or not anyone notices, whether or not anyone cares, whether or not it ultimately matters. To me, THAT's a hero.

#47

[Dingfod]

I was going to add two notorious playboy drunkards, Peter O'Toole and Michael Caine, but with maddog's post, I feel they do not meet either iconic or heroic standards. My sister still does though.

[THX1138]

There's some cool folks listed in here. I'm especially pleased to see Marcus Aurelius' name come up so often too! :yup:

J

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Samuel Clemens
Susan B. Anthony
Carl Sagan
Galileo Galilei
Ambrose Bierce
Richard Feynman
Stephen W. Hawking
Stephen Jay Gould
Daniel C. Dennett
Thomas Paine
Thomas Jefferson
George Washington
James Randi
James Watson

I could be at this a while. :yup:

[Dingfod]

Samuel Clemens
Susan B. Anthony
Carl Sagan
Galileo Galilei
Ambrose Bierce
Richard Feynman
Stephen W. Hawking
Stephen Jay Gould
Daniel C. Dennett
Thomas Paine
Thomas Jefferson
George Washington
James Randi
James Watson

I could be at this a while. :yup:
It does my heart good to see this sort of thing from a young'un. :yup:

[Aurora Elegance]

Susan B. Anthony
Aristotle
Buddha
Emily Dickinson
Albert Einstein
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Epicurus
Mohandas Gandhi
Stephen Hawking
Robert Ingersoll
Thomas Jefferson
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Florence Nightingale
Rosa Parks
Plato
Bertrand Russell
Carl Sagan
Margaret Sanger
Socrates
Peter Tchaikovsky
Henry David Thoreau
Sojourner Truth
Harriet Tubman
Lao Tzu
Oscar Wilde

And still growing... :)

[Clutch Munny]

Tommy Douglas (http://www.weyburnreview.com/tommydouglas/welcome.html)

Terry Fox (http://www.terryfoxrun.org/english/terry%20fox/default.asp?s=1)

Alan Turing (http://www.turing.org.uk/turing/)

Solon (http://www.e-classics.com/solon.htm)

Peter Kropotkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kropotkin#Biography)