They're either with us, or against us

[mopeder]

I just heard about the bin Laden tape friday. It's amazing to me that the Bush administration claims that they were just informed of the tapes existance. I wonder if they were telling the truth, or just mentioning it just in time to coincide with the election. Anyway yes the tape is bin Laden, but it seems highly suspect on Bush's part to just inform us. More than likely they've known about this tape for at least two weeks or so at least. I don't believe that they just found out.

After 9/11, Bush promised to the American people that bin Laden would be captured dead or alive. He has not lived up to that promise. What does he think he should be given four more years to do it? Bush has already had three and a half years. I don't think he deserves another chance. He has failed to accomplish this objective, and instead got the U.S. involved in a war in Iraq under questionable reasons, reasons that turned out to false or outright deceptions. Bush should have focused on bin Laden and al-Qaeda before diverting into something else.

When Kerry becomes president he will make capturing bin Laden his number one priority. Even if it means removing troops from Iraq, and re-deploying them to Afghanistan. More troops are needed to do this.

Everyone believes that bin Laden is somewhere in Pakistan. The Pakistani government should be asked to search for bin Laden on their side of the border and throughout their country, while our troops continue to look on the Afghani side. Ask them if they think they will need assistance from us to do this. If they say no that wouldn't be a good idea. If they don't want help, then they should step up their efforts to find him.

Otherwise, tell them that we will go into Pakistan with or without their approval ourselves and look for him. If they object to our course of action and won't allow our troops to cross the border then they will face an attack from the U.S. to remove their government. As G W Bush has said "If you're not with us, then you're against us."

Pakistan isn't a free, Democratic country. Musharrif wasn't elected, he was placed in charge of Pakistan by the military. He is nothing more than a dictator. The only thing they want from the U.S. is money, and weapons. That can be stopped, and we can and should impose economic sanctions to get them to cooperate, and use war if necessary. If they are harboring bin Laden and won't turn him over, then they are our enemy as well.


Vote KERRY/EDWARDS, to win the war on terror!!

[Petra]

I'm seriously sleep-deprived, so I'll only touch on a couple of things before crashing..

1. The War on Terror is an unwinnable war.

2. Kerry/Edwards (and I've become a fan of Kerry's over the last couple of months) cannot put an end to terrorism - but what they can do better than Bush is twofold: rebuild broken alliances with the rest of the world, and not exacerbate the conditions that "terror" thrives in. Two things Bush totally fucked up on. And this has more to do with the healing and rebuilding of Iraq and Afghanistan more than anything. Oh, and of course Israel/Palestine.

3. Osama Bin Laden, as guilty as he is of the murderous felling of the WTC, is probably too much of a political hot potato to kill. He is a hero to many in the Arab world, and if the US were to kill him you'd see a surge in terrorist activities. The OBL problem does not have such an easy solution if you want to reduce terrorism.

4. Whether you like it or not, the US is going to have to listen to some of these people's grievances eventually.


...that'll do for now. I'd better get some sleep; I'm fading fast. :yawn:

I've yet to see this Bin Laden tape, too - anyone know if it's on the web yet? Cheers.


Oh, and welcome to FF. :yup:

[livius drusus]

Anyway yes the tape is bin Laden, but it seems highly suspect on Bush's part to just inform us. More than likely they've known about this tape for at least two weeks or so at least. I don't believe that they just found out.

Well, Al-Jazeera received the tape on Friday. The State Department claims they asked the government of Qatar that day to pressure Al-Jazeera not to air it. Do you think the Bush administration had a hand in the release of the tape or did it just know the tape existed and was going to end up in AJ's hands?

I don't see what the advantage would really be in the former case, nor do I see why they would announce the existence of a tape they didn't have to bring attention to Bin Laden, a bit of a sore subject after the debates. It's a risky tape for the everyone, the administration very much included.


Bush should have focused on bin Laden and al-Qaeda before diverting into something else.

I basically agree, but you never know what might come up that you have to pay attention to. Kerry, for one, has spoken about multitasking being a necessary presidential skill. Also, this paragraph struck me as a bit of a stump speech: a bit heavy on rhetoric.

When Kerry becomes president he will make capturing bin Laden his number one priority. Even if it means removing troops from Iraq, and re-deploying them to Afghanistan. More troops are needed to do this.

Where does Kerry say he'll remove troops from Iraq to capture bin Laden?

Everyone believes that bin Laden is somewhere in Pakistan. The Pakistani government should be asked to search for bin Laden on their side of the border and throughout their country, while our troops continue to look on the Afghani side. Ask them if they think they will need assistance from us to do this. If they say no that wouldn't be a good idea. If they don't want help, then they should step up their efforts to find him.

You're suggesting sending troops to Pakistan to search the border for Bin Laden without the consent of the Pakistani government?

Otherwise, tell them that we will go into Pakistan with or without their approval ourselves and look for him. If they object to our course of action and won't allow our troops to cross the border then they will face an attack from the U.S. to remove their government. As G W Bush has said "If you're not with us, then you're against us."

Oh, I see. This is a reductio. Okay. I didn't expect it because of your earlier paragraphs.

Pakistan isn't a free, Democratic country. Musharrif wasn't elected, he was placed in charge of Pakistan by the military. He is nothing more than a dictator. The only thing they want from the U.S. is money, and weapons. That can be stopped, and we can and should impose economic sanctions to get them to cooperate, and use war if necessary. If they are harboring bin Laden and won't turn him over, then they are our enemy as well.

Or maybe not. :chin: Are you seriously proposing this, mopeder, or are you attempting to demonstrate the incongruity of the preemptive war principle when applied across the board?

Vote KERRY/EDWARDS, to win the war on terror!!

If that's the Kerry plan, I have no great hopes of its success.

[Socratoad]

Surely you are not advocating a Kerry administration becoming another prime recruiter for terrorists everywhere by sending the troops into Pakistan. That would be an even more disastrous move than those already taken by the present administration.

Sure starting a war on another front will fix everything :woopdedo:

[Adora]

What the fuck are you on, exactly?

Oh, yes, invading & occupying another country is exactly what is needed. Right. Uh huh. Just reinstate the draft and drive the US into deeper debt (funnily enough, with the people that fund terrorism) to sustain the New American Military Order. You're a genius. Here, have a shitcookie.

[Dingfod]

Invade Pakistan? Pakistan is a country of over 160 million people twice the size of California... A country with a military age male population of 24,355,985 (2004 CIA est.) and known to have nuclear missiles backed by a substantial Muslim population a majority of which most likely already despise the U.S. even more so since the invasion of Iraq. We're just lucky they're under a military dictatorship friendly to us because we'd be fighting them already if not for Musharraf. You think the death toll in Iraq is high, try Pakistan, we haven't even successfully controlled Iraq yet.

I know we could lay the place to waste militarily but it would probably kill millions of "innocents" in the process. We spend more on unneeded B-2 bombers than their entire military budget, then again, truckloads of HMX don't cost all that much. I think attacking Pakistan would be international suicide, global economic retribution against the us could well be devastating. Might as well invade China while we're at it. Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out? Wrong.

[mopeder]

It's a dark day in America and the rest of the world. What a
shameful disgrace that people were stupid and voted to reaffirm a
mistake by re-electing that idiot George W. Bush.

We had a chance to elect a great president that John Kerry would
have been, instead we ended up with a joke again. I hope that Bush's
fascism loving voters realize what a disservice they've done to us
all. Bush doesn't do anything that's in the country's best interest.
It will only be "more of the same."

I'm not happy for America, and i'm definately not happy for Bush. He
may be president, but not to me. I should have known that God would
do something to crush our country's hopes and dreams. I didn't know
he would be that cruel.

Let's remember a better day is coming when Bush's second term is
over, or if something unfortunate happens to him and ends it sooner.
Till then we'll have to "suffer the fool gladly." :wink:

[SharonDee]

Well, I'm taking my comfort where I can in the situation. Had Kerry become President he would have been crippled by the imbalance of power in Congress. They'd turn him into a Do-Nothing leader and then blame him for that turn of events come the next election.

In addition, no matter how he handled the Iraq mess he would still be blamed for its failures while Bush would continue to be overlooked for starting it.

Let The Shrub continue to build his blundering legacy; maybe he'll cripple the Republican party's chances to ever again control so much of this nation.

Let's remember a better day is coming when Bush's second term is over, or if something unfortunate happens to him and ends it sooner. Till then we'll have to "suffer the fool gladly." :wink:
Winking or not, comments like this make me shudder. I don't want that fool to die in office; imagine how they'd worship him then. (Unless he has a fatal encounter with the next pretzel. Let's see them immortalize that!)

Besides, you don't really want the Secret Service beating down your door. do you? :noid:

[Petra]

I should have known that God would
do something to crush our country's hopes and dreams. I didn't know
he would be that cruel.


Hiya, mopeder.

I just have to say that this kind of thinking astounds me.

God has been cruel to America? The fattest, richest, greediest, most exploitative nation on the face of the earth, and God has been cruel to y'all?

If God has been cruel to the US - what has he been to Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, Palestine, and other countries that are impoverished, starving, at war, or suffering under the rule of cruel dictators?

And if God is being so cruel to America, why is he lining the pockets and granting so much power to the neo-con imperialists now? Why has he supported all the crap the US has done for decades in the interests of being fatter, richer, and more exploitative than anyone else? Are evil people his fave's or something?





"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed in the name of God, Jesus, and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement, but few can argue with it.", Kenneth V. Lanning

[viscousmemories]

Boy, hearing how fat, greedy, exploitative and evil my country is never gets old.

[Petra]

Boy, hearing how fat, greedy, exploitative and evil my country is never gets old.

That's good, vm, 'cos I'm sure you'll hear it again at some point. Why? Because it's true.


Which makes a mockery of the "God is punishing us!" line of thought, doesn't it?

[viscousmemories]

That's good, vm, 'cos I'm sure you'll hear it again at some point. Why? Because it's true.


Which makes a mockery of the "God is punishing us!" line of thought, doesn't it?
I wish I'd been born in a country where the people are all pure and good, politics are honest and straightforward, and everyone lives in peace and harmony. Where is that again?

[Petra]

I wish I'd been born in a country where the people are all pure and good, politics are honest and straightforward, and everyone lives in peace and harmony. Where is that again?

Oh, Christ. :rolleye1:

:yawn:



Over and out. Ciao.

[viscousmemories]

Sorry, I guess my anger wolf has been eating from the piles of meat you're throwing at your hate wolf. :P