South Africans as fat as Americans

[JoeP]

I don't know if this is 'The Sciences' (health), 'Current Events' or 'Politics' (fat is an international issue). So here it goes.

South Africans as fat as Americans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3964693.stm)

"In South Africa, one in three men are overweight or obese, while for women, it is more than one in two.

"But as many people die of malnutrition in South Africa as of diseases associated with obesity."

The reader comments on this article give useful perspectives.

[ApostateAbe]

I don't know if this is 'The Sciences' (health), 'Current Events' or 'Politics' (fat is an international issue). So here it goes.

South Africans as fat as Americans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3964693.stm)

"In South Africa, one in three men are overweight or obese, while for women, it is more than one in two.

"But as many people die of malnutrition in South Africa as of diseases associated with obesity."

The reader comments on this article give useful perspectives.

Some 200 delegates in South Africa are discussing how the obesity is becoming a global epidemic. It is not a fucking epidemic. It is not something you "catch." You get fat because you choose to be. And if African countries treat fatness as a sign of wealth, health, and power, then you are going ot have a lot of fatness in a prospering economy, no shit.

[viscousmemories]

It is not a fucking epidemic. It is not something you "catch." You get fat because you choose to be.
You might want to look up the definition of epidemic. The word can be used to indicate any widespread phenomenon, it needn't be limited to contagions. And the notion that any significant number of people get fat by choice is absurd and offensive. There are countless contributing factors to people being overweight, and I have yet to meet a person who has acheived it deliberately.

And if African countries treat fatness as a sign of wealth, health, and power, then you are going ot have a lot of fatness in a prospering economy, no shit.
So what's your point?

[viscousmemories]

"But as many people die of malnutrition in South Africa as of diseases associated with obesity."
They clarified this a bit further, by saying:
Because as many South Africans die of malnutrition as they do of diabetes, heart attacks and cancer[...]
Does anyone know what fatal illnesses are commonly associated with malnutrition, and whether they are generally more or less prevalent than diabetes, heart attacks and cancer? Because it seems to me that if there are many possible causes for those three illnesses, but relatively few causes of the illnesses that result from malnutrition, this comparison is inapt.

[Adora]

What's the racial breakdown like of those who are overweight vs regular vs underweight though? It would be interesting to see the figures.

[ApostateAbe]

It is not a fucking epidemic. It is not something you "catch." You get fat because you choose to be. You might want to look up the definition of epidemic. The word can be used to indicate any widespread phenomenon, it needn't be limited to contagions. And the notion that any significant number of people get fat by choice is absurd and offensive. There are countless contributing factors to people being overweight, and I have yet to meet a person who has acheived it deliberately. OK, fine, you win. I think the real problem is that South Africa has an epidemic of cultural misdirection.

That is because they see being fat as a good thing. Have you read the comments following the article?
Most men stroke their fat bellies as a sign that they have money, especially when in public. The bigger the belly , the better. This is the philosophy in my country. Having a fat tummy also commands respect. People associate that with power since 99% of our politicians are fat.
Progress Njomboro, Harare, Zimbabwe I only recently learnt that obesity is a disorder with lethal results. In my country it appears all those in salaried employment are overweight. Thin people are considered mean and probably sickly.
Joseph Okellowange, Ugandan student in Belgium It is no surprise that there are obesity problems in South Africa. In many of the cultures, plenty of food on the table is proof of wealth and success. In the Afrikaans (dutch) community, the cuisine is a 'cholesterol-festival'. After dating an Afrikaans girl for some time, I discovered this. Even with a BIG appetite, I was dreading the next meal where it was considered an insult not to have a large second helping of steak, potatoes and all the trimmings. There was no end to the stream of cookies, cakes and desserts that were for in-between meals. They were always just EATING, EATING, EATING.
Colin S., Richmond, VA (USA) - Formally SA In the United States, it is different. It is not that I think people aim to be fat, it is just that they don't care enough about it to make themselves lose weight. They have priorities that supercede exercising and eating wholesome food. Like watching The Batchelor on the tube and eating potato chips.
And if African countries treat fatness as a sign of wealth, health, and power, then you are going ot have a lot of fatness in a prospering economy, no shit. So what's your point? They are fat because they choose to be.

[viscousmemories]

OK, fine, you win. I think the real problem is that South Africa has an epidemic of cultural misdirection.

That is because they see being fat as a good thing. Have you read the comments following the article?
I had read the comments you quoted, yes. And they indicate that at least a few people from various countries in Africa (only one actually from S. Africa - which the article is about) view obesity as a symbol of economic success. The article itself is about an initiative to address the causes and effects of a perceived negative trend in S. African society. What "cultural misdirection" are you talking about?

In the United States, it is different. It is not that I think people aim to be fat, it is just that they don't care enough about it to make themselves lose weight. They have priorities that supercede exercising and eating wholesome food. Like watching The Batchelor on the tube and eating potato chips.
And once again you trivialize the issue of being overweight by reducing it to excessive TV watching and snack food binging. Why? Is that really the full range of possibilities you can imagine? Because there are a multitude of other social and psychological factors over which people have little to no control that you're ignoring.

They are fat because they choose to be.
I don't think it necessarily follows that people would want to be fat because they live in a country that treats fatness as a sign of wealth, health, and power. But even if that were the case, it's still not a compelling argument that anyone makes an informed choice to be fat. And anyway the whole point of that article is that people are starting to rethink their opinion on the subject in light of new information and seek solutions to the associated problems. Again I really don't get why you seem to have a problem with that.

[ApostateAbe]

OK, fine, you win. I think the real problem is that South Africa has an epidemic of cultural misdirection.

That is because they see being fat as a good thing. Have you read the comments following the article? I had read the comments you quoted, yes. And they indicate that at least a few people from various countries in Africa (only one actually from S. Africa - which the article is about) view obesity as a symbol of economic success. The article itself is about an initiative to address the causes and effects of a perceived negative trend in S. African society. What "cultural misdirection" are you talking about? The cultural misdirection I am talking about is that South Africans view fatness as a good thing, if that answers your question.
In the United States, it is different. It is not that I think people aim to be fat, it is just that they don't care enough about it to make themselves lose weight. They have priorities that supercede exercising and eating wholesome food. Like watching The Batchelor on the tube and eating potato chips. And once again you trivialize the issue of being overweight by reducing it to excessive TV watching and snack food binging. Why? Is that really the full range of possibilities you can imagine? Because there are a multitude of other social and psychological factors over which people have little to no control that you're ignoring. Sorry I trivialized it. Other priorities that people have include working all day, taking care of the kids, their hobbies, and whatever.
They are fat because they choose to be. I don't think it necessarily follows that people would want to be fat because they live in a country that treats fatness as a sign of wealth, health, and power. But even if that were the case, it's still not a compelling argument that anyone makes an informed choice to be fat. And anyway the whole point of that article is that people are starting to rethink their opinion on the subject in light of new information and seek solutions to the associated problems. Again I really don't get why you seem to have a problem with that. Is there anything I can explain to make it clearer?

[Farren]

While many of the traditional cultures of South Africa see obesity as a virtue, those traditional cultures have broken down to a large extent in the cities. The rural Zulu men I interacted with in my youth in Kwazulu-Natal loved a big fat ass. The urban Zulu men I know now like their women willow-thin like a dancer in an American R&B video.

The same is true of men. Urban black men no longer deliberately cultivate the round belly once prized. At least not the guys I know.

At present South Africa is 60% urbanised and the actual rate of urbanisation is so rapid that social scientists are predicting it will reach 75-80% by 2010. The tiny province Joe lives in (and formally myself - technically I'm now just across the border), Gauteng, is almost one huge urban sprawl and accounts for around a fifth of SA's population.

So feelings about obesity are probably more like the US or Europe in South Africa than, for instance, Nigeria, whichever ethnic group is considered. I really feel sorry for the unfortunate urban women who are saddled, if you'll forgive the pune, with gigantic asses on otherwise slender bodies and are obviously unhappy about it (dressing to disguise it and so on). It seems to be common among Zulu women and I think its a direct result of selective breeding based on past standards of beauty.

That said, there is still an mixture of attitudes in the urban environment and I think there a still some men and women who prefer the old asthetic. Nonetheless such attitudes are disappearing rapidly due to an onslaught of western media.

[livius drusus]

I apologize unreservedly for what I am about to say, but I just can't help myself anymore.

Oh. My. God, Becky. Look at this thread!


:giggle:

[Dingfod]

Baby's Got Back
I like big butts and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist
And a round thing in your face

[JoeP]

This is cool. I throw in a random news article, and the usual suspects rant about it, dissect the rant, add a joke or two, somebody steps in with further information, and now we have an 11-post thread with no effort from me.

Farren has pretty much answered the serious questions I would have tried to answer, except I don't have actual figures, Adora, on the racial breakdown. There are plenty of well-built Afrikaans farmers with khaki shorts and combs in their socks, but I think no more as a proportion than in Europe. The respect-for-fat culture is just as Farren says, a traditional rural thing and dying out.

joe

[Dingfod]

My jokist post was tongue-in-cheek serious. There was or still is a black American culture that celebrated(s) women with large buttocks. What I've read here makes me wonder if it is a carryover from tribal preferences in their African heritage.

If fat were celebrated, I'd be Dick Clark's Rocking New Year's Eve party. The party's almost over when my balls drop. :D

Dammit, why can't I be serious?

[viscousmemories]

This is cool. I throw in a random news article, and the usual suspects rant about it, dissect the rant, add a joke or two, somebody steps in with further information, and now we have an 11-post thread with no effort from me.
I suppose I would be the usual suspect who dissects rants. I feel compelled to confront people who make ignorant and offensive stereotypical comments demeaning whatever group of people they don't happen to be a part of, especially when the target of the comment is a large enough group that it's reasonable to expect a percentage of the members here fall into it. I admit though that it seems at times like I'm the only one who bothers to do so, and I'm starting to think it's both a waste of time and contributing to a reputation I don't want.

[JoeP]

vm, maybe you are one of the usual suspects, but far from the only one, and when I said 'cool' I meant it. It's not your reputation, it's just one way you interact. Nor is it a waste. Keep being yourself.

[viscousmemories]

vm, maybe you are one of the usual suspects, but far from the only one, and when I said 'cool' I meant it. It's not your reputation, it's just one way you interact. Nor is it a waste. Keep being yourself.
Thanks Joe, but don't worry about me being myself. I seem to be stuck with it. :D I apologize for the vent, it's just something that's been on my mind lately. I didn't mean it as a direct response to what you had said. :wave:

[pescifish]

I admit though that it seems at times like I'm the only one who bothers to do so, and I'm starting to think it's both a waste of time and contributing to a reputation I don't want.Ha! Now I can have more members to my little specialty group! You're only a few months behind me, vm, get in on the ground floor and we can pick a logo and a motto or two.

Obesity is a major health problem in many countries, not just U.S. and South Africa. Perhaps addressing possible social/societal causes is useful, but it's hella more complex than ApostatAbe's bold assertion that it is a simple matter of choice.

The thing that I find interesting about Joe's OP is the contrast between the problem of starvation coexisting with obesity. (I didn't use the word malnutrition because I believe many obese people can suffer from effects of this as well.) This exists in the U.S. as well, but we don't have much visibility to it.

[ApostateAbe]

Farren, that was a very helpful post.

[viscousmemories]

The thing that I find interesting about Joe's OP is the contrast between the problem of starvation coexisting with obesity. (I didn't use the word malnutrition because I believe many obese people can suffer from effects of this as well.) This exists in the U.S. as well, but we don't have much visibility to it.
I found that interesting too. When you talk about it existing in the US are you talking about the results of eating disorders like anorexia and bulemia, or do you mean there are people starving as a result of poverty? 'Cause this may make me appear woefully disengaged from American reality, but I'm not aware of anyone not being able to get food one way or another in this country.

Also I'm still interested in the answer to this question, which I notice JoeP and Farren both deliberately evaded:

Does anyone know what fatal illnesses are commonly associated with malnutrition, and whether they are generally more or less prevalent than diabetes, heart attacks and cancer? Because it seems to me that if there are many possible causes for those three illnesses, but relatively few causes of the illnesses that result from malnutrition, this comparison is inapt.

[beyelzu]

This is cool. I throw in a random news article, and the usual suspects rant about it, dissect the rant, add a joke or two, somebody steps in with further information, and now we have an 11-post thread with no effort from me.
I suppose I would be the usual suspect who dissects rants. I feel compelled to confront people who make ignorant and offensive stereotypical comments demeaning whatever group of people they don't happen to be a part of, especially when the target of the comment is a large enough group that it's reasonable to expect a percentage of the members here fall into it. I admit though that it seems at times like I'm the only one who bothers to do so, and I'm starting to think it's both a waste of time and contributing to a reputation I don't want.
vm,

I read your posts, I appreciate the time you put into them and respect them even when I disagree with them, like now.

I think you have a good reputation here, or at the very least you do in my mind.

so fuck that defeatist nonsense.


Honestly, I often dont have the patience to make the arguments that you do, and sometimes I dont have the sensitivity.

[livius drusus]

Outright starvation is not a problem in the United States afaik, vm, but millions are hungry. Here's (http://www.frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html) a summary from the hunger activist Food Research and Action Center you might find useful.

When "hunger in America" is discussed, people are referring to the recurrent and involuntary lack of access to sufficient food due to poverty or constrained resources, which can lead to malnutrition over time. In some developing nations where famine is widespread, hunger manifests itself as severe and very visible clinical malnutrition. In the United States hunger manifests itself, generally, in a less severe form. This is in part because established programs help to provide a safety net for many low-income families. While starvation seldom occurs in this country, children and adults do go hungry and chronic mild undernutrition does occur when financial resources are low.

[Dingfod]

Average Americans are living longer than ever. I'm sure that applies to the well fed in other parts of the worlds too.

[viscousmemories]

vm,

I read your posts, I appreciate the time you put into them and respect them even when I disagree with them, like now.

I think you have a good reputation here, or at the very least you do in my mind.

so fuck that defeatist nonsense.


Honestly, I often dont have the patience to make the arguments that you do, and sometimes I dont have the sensitivity.
Thanks beyelzu, I appreciate it.

[viscousmemories]

Outright starvation is not a problem in the United States afaik, vm, but millions are hungry. Here's (http://www.frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html) a summary from the hunger activist Food Research and Action Center you might find useful.
Cool, thanks liv.

[pescifish]

I found that interesting too. When you talk about it existing in the US are you talking about the results of eating disorders like anorexia and bulemia, or do you mean there are people starving as a result of poverty? 'Cause this may make me appear woefully disengaged from American reality, but I'm not aware of anyone not being able to get food one way or another in this country. I did mean the standard lack of food sort of starvation, but I should have done some research before posting as I did. And I shouldn't believe those late night charity pleas showing malnurished children in rural areas of the U.S., either. They told me that little girl will starve without my help. Sorry vm and everyone else. I really should have stuck with the first part of my post, which was really all I wanted to say.

I appreciate the fact that you continue to challenge folks on this board. I hit the same conclusion in your lament a couple of months ago and just wanted to acknowledge that I empathize. I hope you continue.

[viscousmemories]

I did mean the standard lack of food sort of starvation, but I should have done some research before posting as I did. And I shouldn't believe those late night charity pleas showing malnurished children in rural areas of the U.S., either. They told me that little girl will starve without my help. Sorry vm and everyone else. I really should have stuck with the first part of my post, which was really all I wanted to say.
I was just going based on my own experience. I've been in dire straits so many times I know where all the soup kitchens and such are in Ann Arbor (despite the fact that I've never had to utilize them). Of course Ann Arbor is a very affluent city so I wasn't sure if my experience was very useful on that score.

I appreciate the fact that you continue to challenge folks on this board. I hit the same conclusion in your lament a couple of months ago and just wanted to acknowledge that I empathize. I hope you continue.
Thanks, I'm sure I will. I do realize there are myriad reasons people don't speak up when they see objectionable comments and I really don't mind getting involved in such discussions myself. I just sometimes feel like the Church Lady stalking around with a ruler. :glare:

[ApostateAbe]

viscous, it seems to be you vs. me on frequent occasion. I make a brash generalization, and you are there to kick my ass. That's a good thing, really.

[viscousmemories]

viscous, it seems to be you vs. me on frequent occasion. I make a brash generalization, and you are there to kick my ass. That's a good thing, really.
Thanks Abe. That you appreciate it says a lot about the quality of your character, imo. I promise when I challenge anything you say it's not in an effort to judge or ridicule you, but because I realize everyone has beliefs they haven't necessarily reasoned through and I prefer to assume that people I interact with are interested in self-examination and improvement. Plus lots of times I've confronted people on shit I had a problem with and ended up learning a lesson myself. It's all good from where I'm sitting.

[JoeP]

I love the all-goodness in this thread :D

[bobeh]

A bit off the OP...I've notice when travelling in the US that there seemed to be more obesity than at home (Canada). I wasn't sure if that was more localized or what...but always made me wonder. Restuarant choices and quantities seemed to favor larger portions and more dietary fats...but again, my observation was not at all scientific.

So I looked up some stats from a study I googled...sorry I didn't keep the source, but I think I got it searching under ..Canada versus United States obesity. The following are exerpts from a joint study comparing health care in the States versus Canada...and this was a piece of it - and in fact probably the most significant of all the differences in health between Canadians and US residents.

Weight and wages
Obesity by household income quintile
First quintile (poorest)
Canada: 17.6%
United States: 27.3%
Second
Canada: 16.6%
United States: 23.4%
Third
Canada: 16.2%
United States: 19.4%
Fourth
Canada: 14.4%
United States: 19.5%
Fifth (richest)
Canada: 12.7%
United States: 14.8%

I suppose that the areas of the US I was in might have been in the lower end of the economic scale - and my impression of what I saw seems to fit these stats. Now...I won't speculate any further on reasons (other than my restaurant comments).

[The Lone Ranger]

There's a lot of misunderstanding regarding "starvation" and "malnourishment." Starvation occurs when you don't take in enough calories to supply your body's energy needs. Eventually, of course, it will kill you. Malnourishment occurs when you don't take in enough of the proper nutrients in order to maintain health -- you can eat like a horse and still be malnourished if you're not getting a properly-balanced diet.

Malnourishment, especially in children, tends to suppress the functioning of the immune system, so those who are malnourished tend to be more vulnerable to parasitic infection and infectious diseases like measles. Diabetes mellitus is also commonly associated with malnutrition. What condition(s) a malnourished person will develop depends largely on what nutrient(s) they're lacking. Some examples (by no means an exhaustive list):

Lack of Iron: Anemia
Lack of Calcium: Osteoporosis
Lack of Vitamin A: Night Blindness
Lack of Vitamin B1: Beriberi
Lack of Vitamin B2: Skin disorders
Lack of Vitamin B3: Pellagra
Lack of Vitamin B12: Pernicious Anemia; Increased risk of Miscarriage
Lack of Vitamin C: Scurvy; Respiratory disorders
Lack of Vitamin D: Rickets; Juvenile-onset Diabetes
Lack of Vitamin E: Malabsorption of Fats, Anemia
Lack of Vitamin K: Poor blood clotting, Internal Bleeding
Lack of Protein: Kwashiorkor
Lack of Iodine: Goiter, Hyperthyroidism, Cretinism
Lack of Copper: Nerve damage, Anemia
Lack of Selenium: Increased sensitivity to certain toxins



Cheers,

Michael