The mentally ill

[beyelzu]

Most everyone knows that I deliver swords, sometimes I also sell them at fleamarkets. Today while at a fleamarket in Savannah, I had some contact with someone who was obviously mentally ill. She was in her mid thirties and wearing a seventies polester, blue and white checked suit. She constantly talked to herself. She came over to my table and looked at some really cool daggers. I noticed her unusual dress but I didnt think much about it at first. After she looked at the daggers for a moment, I asked if I could help her with anything, she stared over my right shoulder and said,"Everything is great, Everything is great."

I realized that she might be a little off at this point.

Anyway, I didnt know what to say, so I didnt say anything. She walked around in the aisle I was on for awhile, occassionally talking to people while not looking at them. Anytime, someone addressed her first, she repeated her "everything is great" refrain. After 10-15 minutes she settled into a spot where no one would talk to her. The vendors were talking shit and laughing at her. Eventually, someone who she seemed to know came and took her away. She actually spoke to this person and looked at them simultaneously.

This whole episode got me to thinking about the mentally ill. I remember learning in an anthropology class that the mentally ill are treated poorly in many societies because they do not observe social norms.
Do people think that such treatment isnatural or normal.


I dont mean moral. I am more thinking about the likely consequences of being unable to conform to societal norms when it comes to communications and group interaction.

[dave_a]

This whole episode got me to thinking about the mentally ill. I remember learning in an anthropology class that the mentally ill are treated poorly in many societies because they do not observe social norms.
Do people think that such treatment is natural or normal.

I dont mean moral. I am more thinking about the likely consequences of being unable to conform to societal norms when it comes to communications and group interaction.

I don't think I have ever treated a mentally ill/retarded person "like shit", but I do generally try and avoid them because I have no concept of how to interact with them. It isn't simply that they behave a little off, it is that I have no way of predicting how they will react to my "normal" interaction with them.

At an old place there was this retarded guy who rode his bike all over the place and if I was out in the yard he would stop over to chat. He did this with pretty much everyone. Started off fine, but then one day I hadn't shaven and he kept rubbing his hands on my face and looking me in the eyes staring and oohing at how my face felt. I am sure it was totally harmless, but I was very uncomfortable with it so I avoided him after that.

Another individual got incredibly angry at me although I have no idea what I did that set him off. Went on a loud rant until I just walked away.

Now, if the individual is with an adult caretaker then I have no problem with it because the caretaker knows how to handle him/her and what to watch out for, I do not.

[LadyShea]

I answer calls from customers all over the country. One time a customer called and I got her name and account number and said "How are you Mrs. So-and-So" while I was pulling her up on the 'puter. She screamed "I am falling apart at the seams" then started crying. I tried to sorta steer the conversation to work, but she started babbling about all kinds of crazy things. I really was at a loss as to what to do, so I just let her talk it out then she hung up without ever mentioning what she had called customer service about.

Another customer and I became somewhat friendly when I helped her learn the features of our product to help protect herself from a supposed stalker, and get some recordings and messages in a form she could give to the police. Every once in awhile, she still calls me about MORE people who are "after her". Last night she called, and I took the call because I was bored, she spoke for three hours about messages and visions from God. I just humored her, I didn't know what else to do.

I didn't treat them like shit, but its a disconcerting expeirence....the ocassional odd or eccentric or quirky person is one thing, truly delusional people quite another.

[beyelzu]

I guess the thing that got to me is that even asking this woman a question made her incredibly ill at ease, or at least it seemed that way. Also, it seems to me that interaction is based on at least some norms. I think I found the lack of eye contact to be kind of creepy, I kept thinking she was talking to someone else, because people look at you when they are talking to you.


On a vaguely related note, I find hands free cell units to be kind of irritating as well, when somoene is looking directly at you and is saying something, I naturally think that they are talking to me.

[HelenM]

This whole episode got me to thinking about the mentally ill. I remember learning in an anthropology class that the mentally ill are treated poorly in many societies because they do not observe social norms.
Do people think that such treatment is natural or normal.

I dont mean moral. I am more thinking about the likely consequences of being unable to conform to societal norms when it comes to communications and group interaction.

I don't think I have ever treated a mentally ill/retarded person "like shit", but I do generally try and avoid them because I have no concept of how to interact with them. It isn't simply that they behave a little off, it is that I have no way of predicting how they will react to my "normal" interaction with them.

At an old place there was this retarded guy who rode his bike all over the place and if I was out in the yard he would stop over to chat. He did this with pretty much everyone. Started off fine, but then one day I hadn't shaven and he kept rubbing his hands on my face and looking me in the eyes staring and oohing at how my face felt. I am sure it was totally harmless, but I was very uncomfortable with it so I avoided him after that.

Another individual got incredibly angry at me although I have no idea what I did that set him off. Went on a loud rant until I just walked away.

Now, if the individual is with an adult caretaker then I have no problem with it because the caretaker knows how to handle him/her and what to watch out for, I do not.

What you said seems typical to me.

I used to be much more scared of mentally ill people before I was ill myself. Now I feel sorry for them because of the way people tend to avoid them; I know they have feelings too. I may be wrong but I think the proportion of mentally ill people who are actually dangerous may be no higher than the proportion of mentally well people who are. Yet, what is unpredictable is scary, so I can understand why many people back away.

What you said about the presence of a caretaker is interesting. I suppose it takes away the fear when there's a caretaker there that other people rely on to keep things under control.

I'll never forget what it was like to be treated as less than human because I was ill, never...

Helen

[Adora]

Do people think that such treatment is natural or normal?

It's statistically normal.

It's not essentially natural.

[beyelzu]

Do people think that such treatment is natural or normal?

It's statistically normal.

It's not essentially natural.
I learned in anthropology that hunter gatherer tribes do indeed treat the mentally ill poorly oftentimes, so, although I know that some groups have in the past held the mentally ill as special or touched by god, what proof do you have that it is not natural.

[Adora]

Because I have never seen anything to say that it is.

Before anyone starts chucking shits about biological responses, one has to remember that most biological responses to communication, social situations and human interaction are trained and taught.

This is what I mean by not essentially natural. I have never heard of an essential reaction to someone, some instinctual feeling you get because of a gland in your body that secretes chemical X that causes a biological reaction to mentally ill people when they are near, without interacting with them in a social way first. Because you don't know they're mentally ill until they display it. You don't know someone has paranoid schizophrenia or is mentally unstable until he or she starts saying what's on their mind. Or, if you do, sometimes you don't realise the extent (my cousin is a perfect example of this).

You said you didn't realise something was up until she broke the unwritten social norms of English language communication. Her lack of eye contact is another time she deviated from the accepted normal communication actions of the culture she was in. But there was not some essentialist "natural" reaction you had to her without these social constructions being deviated from in some way.

One of the great reasons people have phobias about mentally ill people is because they do not reveal their illness until these kinds of interactions happen. It's a completely illogical reasoning, of course, but xenophobia comes in all shapes and forms. Before anyone gets their panties in a knot, I am absolutely not saying you have or displayed a phobia of her bey. This piece of the discussion is a non-personal one, and I just thought I should put a disclaimer up about it before this thread goes the way of similar ones on this site.

But I am saying that some people have irrational fears of mentally ill people because there is that "you don't know they're nuts until they do X, Y, or Z" thing, the same way some people have a form of homophobia best coined in the phrase, "He's scared of the boogeyfag".

Like I said, it's statistically normal. Most cultures and societies do treat mentally ill people poorly. Thus, I agree with your comments about hunter/gatherer tribes. There are some, however, that see the mental illness as a gift from the gods, or a spiritual posession (sometimes in a positive way) or a specialness of the person that is nurtured and not looked down upon in the society. You also have to remember that "mental illness" is a relatively modern discourse, arising from the marriage of capitalist growth and the incorporation of scientific knowledge into society in the middle of the 18th century. We still have changing notions of what mental illness constitutes, as well, because it does change over time. Remember the days when women who just wanted a couple of orgasms a week were treated as "hysterics"? Or the fact that I find fundamentalist religious mindsets to be quite unstable and, honestly, the symptom of an ill mind? Why is arachnaphobia and other such illogical fears treated medically, but xenophobia and homophobia not bothered with, even though they are irrational and detremental to the society at large? What about the ages of man when someone who was slightly less positive in their outlook on life was simply called a "Melancholic", accepted in the society for the perspective they could bring on life, and not fed prozac or zoloft?

These are the reasons I have a problem with the matter of essential naturalism in regards to mental illness and people's reactions to it.

[Bella]

I try to make a point to interact with mentally ill people "normally" but there comes a time when they push my patience too far and then I get short with them. I don't make fun of them, per se, but I do get a little pissy. Does that sound mean?

I mean, one day a group of seven such people were herded into Barnes & Noble by their two caretakers. Two of the seven were in wheelchairs a la Timmy and the rest were wandering around. The caretakers brought them over to the counter where they spent the next twenty minutes trying to figure out what to order. The handicapped people milled around running into things, knocking stuff over, tossing books on the ground, and shouting the menu out loud. I was seriously pissed. First of all, why bring seven mentally handicapped people into a bookstore with the atmosphere of a library? Secondly, if you're a caretaker, aren't you supposed to be controlling them?

[beyelzu]

Because I have never seen anything to say that it is.

Before anyone starts chucking shits about biological responses, one has to remember that most biological responses to communication, social situations and human interaction are trained and taught.

This is what I mean by not essentially natural. I have never heard of an essential reaction to someone, some instinctual feeling you get because of a gland in your body that secretes chemical X that causes a biological reaction to mentally ill people when they are near, without interacting with them in a social way first. Because you don't know they're mentally ill until they display it. You don't know someone has paranoid schizophrenia or is mentally unstable until he or she starts saying what's on their mind. Or, if you do, sometimes you don't realise the extent (my cousin is a perfect example of this).

well, I didnt understand your point. I agree that our reaction to the mentally ill is probably not biological. I didnt take natural in that light. I guess I just didnt think biological

You said you didn't realise something was up until she broke the unwritten social norms of English language communication. Her lack of eye contact is another time she deviated from the accepted normal communication actions of the culture she was in. But there was not some essentialist "natural" reaction you had to her without these social constructions being deviated from in some way.

true, although I found her leisure suit to be seriously odd, I didnt actually think mentally ill until she spoke.

One of the great reasons people have phobias about mentally ill people is because they do not reveal their illness until these kinds of interactions happen. It's a completely illogical reasoning, of course, but xenophobia comes in all shapes and forms. Before anyone gets their panties in a knot, I am absolutely not saying you have or displayed a phobia of her bey. This piece of the discussion is a non-personal one, and I just thought I should put a disclaimer up about it before this thread goes the way of similar ones on this site.

I dont know, feeling uncomfortable around the mentally ill is understandable because you dont know how to deal with them. Much as an immigrant might feel uncomfortable in a new and different culture. Btw, my panties are so unknotted and would have been even without the disclaimer. I do think that xenophobia is a poor word choice as for the general discussion however, not because of bad connotations but because I dont think it is accurate.


But I am saying that some people have irrational fears of mentally ill people because there is that "you don't know they're nuts until they do X, Y, or Z" thing, the same way some people have a form of homophobia best coined in the phrase, "He's scared of the boogeyfag".

got to ask, where the hell have you heard that phrase, I think it's funny as hell.

Like I said, it's statistically normal. Most cultures and societies do treat mentally ill people poorly. Thus, I agree with your comments about hunter/gatherer tribes. There are some, however, that see the mental illness as a gift from the gods, or a spiritual posession (sometimes in a positive way) or a specialness of the person that is nurtured and not looked down upon in the society. You also have to remember that "mental illness" is a relatively modern discourse, arising from the marriage of capitalist growth and the incorporation of scientific knowledge into society in the middle of the 18th century. We still have changing notions of what mental illness constitutes, as well, because it does change over time. Remember the days when women who just wanted a couple of orgasms a week were treated as "hysterics"?

good times.

I have always been amused by Freud's belief that lesbians were somehow not sexually mature.


Or the fact that I find fundamentalist religious mindsets to be quite unstable and, honestly, the symptom of an ill mind? Why is arachnaphobia and other such illogical fears treated medically, but xenophobia and homophobia not bothered with, even though they are irrational and detremental to the society at large? What about the ages of man when someone who was slightly less positive in their outlook on life was simply called a "Melancholic", accepted in the society for the perspective they could bring on life, and not fed prozac or zoloft?

These are the reasons I have a problem with the matter of essential naturalism in regards to mental illness and people's reactions to it.
btw, I really enjoyed reading your post. The whole post is very badass.

[beyelzu]

I try to make a point to interact with mentally ill people "normally" but there comes a time when they push my patience too far and then I get short with them. I don't make fun of them, per se, but I do get a little pissy. Does that sound mean?

I mean, one day a group of seven such people were herded into Barnes & Noble by their two caretakers. Two of the seven were in wheelchairs a la Timmy and the rest were wandering around. The caretakers brought them over to the counter where they spent the next twenty minutes trying to figure out what to order. The handicapped people milled around running into things, knocking stuff over, tossing books on the ground, and shouting the menu out loud. I was seriously pissed. First of all, why bring seven mentally handicapped people into a bookstore with the atmosphere of a library? Secondly, if you're a caretaker, aren't you supposed to be controlling them?

I have often wondered at the wisdom of trying to mainstream some people. Of course, I understand the purpose, but I wonder how effective such programs are.

[Adora]

I dont know, feeling uncomfortable around the mentally ill is understandable because you dont know how to deal with them.

Agreed, and I think this is quite normal :). I have the same reactions myself. One such golden moment was very "WTF!!" when my cousin told me snakes were aliens that came from Alpha Centuri. We knew he had his good days and his bad, but we hadn't seen him for a while, and it actually turned out, that was one of his good days. However, you've always got to make the difference between someone feeling uncomfortable (which can pass) and a straight-out phobia, which won't pass without treatment. Most people who feel uncomfortable around the mentally ill or the disabled (as a similar example) can overcome these feelings through socialisation and interactions with them. It's when you can't get over it, no matter how much time you spend around these kinds of people, that you should be worried.

got to ask, where the hell have you heard that phrase, I think it's funny as hell.

From an article called "Gender Treachery" by Patrick D Hopkins. It's very good. In it he addresses the causes for (mostly male) homophobia through the three main theories- repression, ignorance/conditioning and political power. I can't remember which one of the three theories in the article he uses the phrase for, but it really stood out in my mind.

I have always been amused by Freud's belief that lesbians were somehow not sexually mature.

Freud was a fuckwit. The rest of the world is now suffering for his stupid generalisations about world sexuality based on a few fucking case studies in Vienna at the time.

[wade-w]

One thing I've noticed throughout this thread is what I see as an alarming tendency to lump metal illness and mental developmental problems together in one catch-all. They are not the same at all. Now, I may be misreading this, and if so I apologize; I can also see where reactions to both phenomena could be similar.

[beyelzu]

One thing I've noticed throughout this thread is what I see as an alarming tendency to lump metal illness and mental developmental problems together in one catch-all. They are not the same at all. Now, I may be misreading this, and if so I apologize; I can also see where reactions to both phenomena could be similar.
I dont know, seems to me that both cases are pretty much equal in regards to a conversation about the dificulties of dealing with people who dont conform to societal standards at all during interactions.


I dont think anyone is saying that a schizophrenic is the same as a mildly retarded person.

[dave_a]

One thing I've noticed throughout this thread is what I see as an alarming tendency to lump metal illness and mental developmental problems together in one catch-all. They are not the same at all. Now, I may be misreading this, and if so I apologize; I can also see where reactions to both phenomena could be similar.

While I wouldn't normally equate the two, especially for something like a passing clinical depression, I do believe that a mental illness and a mental defect (retardation) from a "I don't know how to relate positively with this person" perspective can be comparable.

The whole problem, from my perspeective, is that the brain of the individual is operating in a manner foreign to my brain. It would be somewhat like my trying to communicate with a person who doesn't speak or understand my language nor I theirs. It could be done, but I would much rather communicate with someone who shared the same language as I.

It goes further than this though. Instead of simply having different languages, we come from cultures that vary dramatically. I try to shake hands and they view it as an insult because I ignorantly used the "wrong" hand and in their culture it means "F you" so my friendly gesture is met with hostility or offense and I haven't a clue why.