WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY?!

[Goliath]

No, seriously. What the FUCK is wrong with the 51% of the voting population that voted for Bush?! I want to line them up, and one by one pick each of them up by their necks and scream "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!" over and over again until they tell me precisely what the fuck is wrong with them.

I'd ask about what's wrong with my state of SD (who voted out Daschle and put a prick in his place who will be nothing more than a puppet for Bush), but the answer is obvious: The name of the state has the word "Dakota" in it.

:madrant: :angry: :soapbox:

[Petra]

I know, I know.

As I watched the coverage, all I could do was shake my head sadly and wonder...

[Godless Dave]

Well, all he did was lie us into an unnecessary war and run up a huge budget deficit.

Canada here I come.

[THX1138]

And let's not forget our second-class citizens:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/02/ballot.samesex.marriage/index.html

(CNN) -- Six months after gay and lesbian couples won the right to marry in Massachusetts, opponents of same-sex marriage struck back Tuesday, with voters in 11 states approving constitutional amendments codifying marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution.

& I'm quite certain that fear of "faggotry" was a huge factor in the presidential election (or more specifically: It was made a huge factor via scaremongering Repugs).

I voted Kerry.

Now I'm voting New Zealand. :wave:

J

[SharonDee]

I've been asking myself that question ever since I got up this morning, Goliath. I know too many Bush supporters IRL so I'm having to calm myself down before going in to work this morning.

I'll be dressed all in black, BTW. I'm in mourning for my country.
:deepsigh:

[livius drusus]

I'm quite certain that fear of "faggotry" was a huge factor in the presidential election

I think there's a lot to that idea. The suprisingly large chunk of poll respondents who said "moral values" were their number one priority seem likely to be anti-gay marriage initiative voters. Hell, I didn't even know there were a dozen states with such initiatives on the ballot; I certainly didn't anticipate the possibility that they might actually draw in a strongly Bush-supporting segment of the electorate.

[Petra]

Now I'm voting New Zealand. :wave:

J


What are you doing in Louisiana if you'd rather be in NZ?

If your avatar is you, you look like you gotta a bit of Maori in you - do you?


Welcome, by the way. :) :wave:

[HelenM]

I'm quite certain that fear of "faggotry" was a huge factor in the presidential election

I think there's a lot to that idea. The suprisingly large chunk of poll respondents who said "moral values" were their number one priority seem likely to be anti-gay marriage initiative voters. Hell, I didn't even know there were a dozen states with such initiatives on the ballot; I certainly didn't anticipate the possibility that they might actually draw in a strongly Bush-supporting segment of the electorate.

I hadn't thought about that question bringing out Bush supporters in the states where it was on the ballot. One of those states was Ohio:

Voters in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah all approved anti-same-sex marriage amendments by double-digit margins.

from here (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/02/ballot.samesex.marriage/index.html)

Helen

[Adam]

I'm quite certain that fear of "faggotry" was a huge factor in the presidential election

I think there's a lot to that idea. The suprisingly large chunk of poll respondents who said "moral values" were their number one priority seem likely to be anti-gay marriage initiative voters. Hell, I didn't even know there were a dozen states with such initiatives on the ballot; I certainly didn't anticipate the possibility that they might actually draw in a strongly Bush-supporting segment of the electorate.

I was going to say the same thing. I find it both interesting and disheartening that, despite constant public assertions by both major parties, the pundits, the media, etc., assertions that I disagree with, by the way, that "9/11 changed everything", 9/11 changed nothing. The spoiler issue this year wasn't national security, the supposed new hot button issue, or our so-called war president and the result of his military policies, it was a 90's style culture war retro issue, the sort that we've supposedly put behind us to focus on the new and dangerous world we supposedly live in. I'm not sure what that means for American politics.

What I do know is that I'm apparently hopelessly out of step with a sizable chunk of my countrymen and women. I care about good jobs for people who want to work, decent health care for everyone, rational foreign policy with an eye toward preventing violence, and national security. They care, apparently, about whether or not two men are allowed to share an insurance policy. I called my mother (a staunch Democrat and strong Catholic) this morning to suggest that, if we ever want to see sane government again, her church, and other religious institutions, are going to have to make a decision about what they value more. Is it peace and humanitarianism, or is it who's allowed to marry whom and who controls whose reproductive organs?

I've felt vaguely naseous all morning. I think I'm going to go home at lunch and cry or yell or something.

[Scotty]

All my sisters and their husbands voted bushy, I have to convince my wife not judge them too harshly.

What I don't understand is that I wouldn't want bushy in office because of his environmental policies and his nuclear weapons policies alone. It is just that easy.

I don't think people understand the subjects, they only see what is on TV, and the TV only covers what is sensational (or what they consider sensational).

When you get right down to it, the people vote for who they identify with. The advent of tons of TV (and almost everybody having a TV) coverage as brought the image of what the president is down to a more common level. They must appeal to this "common man" identity and talk and act at that level.

I don't think Kerry was believable in his stances, and I don't think he was a strong choice for the Democratic party. Maybe he was the only choice out of what was there, which is really sad.

I guess I now see Cheney running for pres next time (actually, I don't think he would be a choice, not "common" enough, too "grumpy".).

You have to have a good looking president, not one that can do the job. That is left to everybody else.

I guess all I look forward to is more attacks on countries that might do something to us, then running out of money to do that anymore. Then, you have to back out of doing this "war on <name>" because you don't have the money anymore, unless you take all of the resources and money from the countries that you are "helping" to continue the "war on <name>".

Then, you back out of doing this "war on <name>" and everything is cool for a while, you get 10-15 years off, then somebody attacks you again. Or, the economy is so bad that you can't do much to defend yourself because you have been overextended for so many years.

But of course, you have to go attack because they are the evil terrorists and if you don't attack they will just think you are weak and will attack you again and again. So the cycle begins anew. The rich get more money from whatever they do, and the people who are funding the "war on <name>" do just that.

I feel so safe now, knowing that democracy is being planted like a seed to grow and flourish in all of the axis of evil countries. Being planted with love and care at the end of a gun. WORK YOU, GET THAT PLANTED OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!

I can feel the love.

Wow, did I have a lot to say? Wonder where that came from?

<sigh>

I guess in terms of "war on <name>" even though I understand that people think that human nature indicates that violence will happen, I can never really wrap my mind around it. I can't figure out why people feel the need to kill somebody because they don't agree with them (mentally unstable people not withstanding). It is hard for me to think that killing is the only solution to a problem somebody has. What needs to happen for people to stop doing that?

All I see with "war on <name>" is people who didn't do anything at all being killed. Sure, there are probably some who were going to do something or wanted to or were planning to, but what is that percentage? How many people out there really want to kill other people, on purpose?

It is really sad that somebody thinks that is the only option.

I have become more empathetic with other people ever since I came to the conclusion [Gg]od didn't exist. It really put a huge perspective on things that I never had before. I thought beyond my own nose, I thought beyond "they are in heaven", to "they are never more", and that is where I stand with "war on <name>"

:sadnana:

-Scott

[THX1138]

What are you doing in Louisiana if you'd rather be in NZ?
Stuck. :( I still have dreams of moving to NZ-- dunno when tho.
If your avatar is you, you look like you gotta a bit of Maori in you - do you?No Maori, but I do have a bit of Native American in me. That pic is from a couple months back. I've grown my hair back since then, but this pic goes well (sort of anyway) with my screen-name! Hiya back! :wave:

I've felt vaguely naseous all morning. I think I'm going to go home at lunch and cry or yell or something.I feel the same way.

I predict a "pre-emptive strike" against Iran in the near future...

J

[Petra]

I don't think Kerry was believable in his stances...

Interesting that you should say that. My flatmate, who has not been so caught up in US and world politics as I am and hasn't read much about Kerry - only heard him speak on News soundbites - said to me as he watched some of the final campaign moments on the telly with me, "I dunno, I just don't find him very convincing".

As I had read much of Kerry's history, I do find him convincing and told Paul why I did. But he just replied, "Well, that might be, but he still doesn't come across as particularly convincing to me".

So in that respect, perhaps he was a poor Dem choice - but then what would be a "convincing" alternative - a simple-minded rant and meme machine?

*sigh*

[Petra]

What are you doing in Louisiana if you'd rather be in NZ?
Stuck. :( I still have dreams of moving to NZ-- dunno when tho.
J

Well, if it's any help to you, NZ has relaxed it's immigration policies a little. Now might be a good time to look into it.

Good luck. :)

[freemonkey]

What I do know is that I'm apparently hopelessly out of step with a sizable chunk of my countrymen and women. I care about good jobs for people who want to work, decent health care for everyone, rational foreign policy with an eye toward preventing violence, and national security. They care, apparently, about whether or not two men are allowed to share an insurance policy. I called my mother (a staunch Democrat and strong Catholic) this morning to suggest that, if we ever want to see sane government again, her church, and other religious institutions, are going to have to make a decision about what they value more. Is it peace and humanitarianism, or is it who's allowed to marry whom and who controls whose reproductive organs?

Well put. Its very depressing.

And I'm afraid that so many people are either too tired, too lazy or too overwhelmed with "information" to weed the facts from fiction.

[Clutch Munny]

What's wrong with the country was obvious long before any election results came in.

Citizens of the nation that fancies itself an exporter of democracy were waiting 5, 6, 7 hours to vote. To vote.

No media panic about this.

No pundit outrage.

No public outcry.

Because, after all, few or none of those people drove up to the voting station in a Lincoln Navigator.

If you saw it happening in Albania, its significance would be obvious: This is a country in which the grasp of and commitment to democracy is so thin that the basic procedures look like they were designed by Bozo the Clown.

If you have to wait three minutes at the video rental store, you get antsy. If you see people forced to wait hours to vote, and wait days or weeks for their votes to be counted...

...pass me the hickory sticks, Survivor's coming on...

[Petra]

What's wrong with the country was obvious long before any election results came in.

Citizens of the nation that fancies itself an exporter of democracy were waiting 5, 6, 7 hours to vote. To vote.

No media panic about this.

No pundit outrage.

No public outcry.

Because, after all, few or none of those people drove up to the voting station in a Lincoln Navigator.

If you saw it happening in Albania, its significance would be obvious: This is a country in which the grasp of and commitment to democracy is so thin that the basic procedures look like they were designed by Bozo the Clown.



It's alright, Clutch, US Inspires World With Attempt At Democratic Election (http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4044)

NEW YORK—Observers from around the world report that they were inspired and moved by America's most recent attempt to hold a public election in accordance with the standards of a democratic republic.

"After all of the recriminations, infighting, and general madness before the election, the people of this fractured nation still found the courage to show up at the polls," said Anas Salman, an Afghan U.N. official who was in New York during the American electoral experiment. "More than half of America's citizens—a large portion of them women—made a valiant attempt to choose their own leader, even though there was no guarantee their votes would be counted. It was truly inspirational."

In the weeks leading up to the election, both of America's political parties alleged fraud in voter registration. Additionally, experts debated the reliability of electronic voting machines, which experienced problems in trial runs and leave no paper trail. Election officials also bemoaned many states' use of outdated punchcard machines.

Considering such disputes, Salman said he was "touched and gladdened" that voter turnout for the U.S. election nearly approached voter-turnout rates for Afghanistan's first popular elections in October, when 69 percent of citizens cast ballots.

"True, voter turnout in many parts of the world tops 90 percent," Salman said. "But it's understandable that the rate is lower in countries such as Afghanistan, where the government has raised fears of possible terrorist attacks at the polls. Our people showed great courage."

[...]

"Despite the specter of corruption in 2000, and even though the procedural problems which surfaced during the previous election were never remedied, the American people chose to put their faith in the system once again this year," said Joseph Mtume, a Kenyan diplomat who traveled to Ohio to view America's democratic proceedings. "You can't help but feel touched by the determination of these citizens who put their doubts aside to collectively participate in the democratic process. All this in a nation divided by war, where dissent is widespread and the rift between citizens has rarely been higher. It was truly stirring."

Carlos Cruz, an Argentinian diplomat who observed the election in Miami, said he was profoundly moved by America's democratic election.

[...]

The multinational watchdog group Organization for Security and Cooperation sent 600 official observers to monitor proceedings, from countries as disparate as North Korea, Syria, and China. Many reported that they came away deeply touched.

"To see a country with such overwhelming problems—problems that affect every last citizen—have so many of its voters feel that they can still influence their leadership... words fail me," said Dae Jung Kim, a North Korean OSC delegate. "Certainly, my report to my own government will emphasize this. I will recommend that my leaders implement such American election-time strategies and tactics as would fit the North Korean model of personal freedom, such as their elegant Electoral College and the inscrutable voting machine."

:wink:

[LadyShea]

No, seriously. What the FUCK is wrong with the 51% of the voting population that voted for Bush?! I want to line them up, and one by one pick each of them up by their necks and scream "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!" over and over again until they tell me precisely what the fuck is wrong with them.

They voted based on their values, Goliath; they voted against gay marriage/gay rights, they voted against "tearing little babies apart", they voted against the Whore of Babylon Roman Catholic Church, they voted against "coddling those ragheaded brown people". Most of the country considers themselves not only Christian, but evangelical. The Baptist pulpit was as influential as any campaign stop podium this time around.

That they voted to continue to be un(der)employed, at war, and surveilled just didn't register with them.

I'd ask about what's wrong with my state of SD (who voted out Daschle and put a prick in his place who will be nothing more than a puppet for Bush), but the answer is obvious: The name of the state has the word "Dakota" in it.

From my understanding, Daschle homesteaded his place in DC, making him a "Washington asshole" and that pissed off the South Dakotans.

We all are angry, but we need to find contructive ways to channel that anger and try to keep Bush from stripping us of our rights completely.

[Godless Dave]

I didn't like Daschle anyway. He was spineless in facing up to Bush's lies about Iraq, among many other issues.

My state had a chance to increase the number of Democrats in our House delegation, but we couldn't pull it off.

[Godless Dave]

We all are angry, but we need to find contructive ways to channel that anger and try to keep Bush from stripping us of our rights completely.
My plan is to channel it all the way to British Columbia.

I was prepared to fight if Bush stole the election again. But if a majority of American voters willingly re-elected the worst president of the last 100 years, fuck it, they deserve what's coming to them.

[LadyShea]

Looks like Harry Reid, from Nevada, may take over for Daschle. He's a good guy, and I have yet to see him be wimpy.

[Godless Dave]

Looks like Harry Reid, from Nevada, may take over for Daschle. He's a good guy, and I have yet to see him be wimpy.
I hope so. It would be nice to have an actual opposition party again, instead of the kiss-Bush's-ass party the Democrats have been for the last four years.

[Adam]

If you have to wait three minutes at the video rental store, you get antsy. If you see people forced to wait hours to vote, and wait days or weeks for their votes to be counted...

...pass me the hickory sticks, Survivor's coming on...

<libertarian mode>

Well, the difference is that the video store is a private enterprise with a profit motoive, while polling is carried out by the big bad inefficient government, so the obvious solution is to privating the polling places and give them economic incentives to bring in the most voters. Hey! Maybe if people had to buy the right to vote, then each polling place would compete to get you through the line quicker so they could earn your voting dollar, and...

</libertarian mode>

*slap*

Oops, sorry. Won't happen again.

Seriously, I worked the polls yesterday, and I'm amazed by how antiquated some of our procedures are. The fate of our democracy rests on whether or not I put the right form in the right paper bag before I staple it shut...

[LadyShea]

We all are angry, but we need to find contructive ways to channel that anger and try to keep Bush from stripping us of our rights completely.
My plan is to channel it all the way to British Columbia.

I was prepared to fight if Bush stole the election again. But if a majority of American voters willingly re-elected the worst president of the last 100 years, fuck it, they deserve what's coming to them.

That was just barely a majority. Almost half voted for change. Please don't leave and reduce that further.

[Petra]

LOL, Adam. :)

Although antiquated may just be what America needs in it's voting methods - the high tech methods are pretty dodgy it seems. :eek:

[Godless Dave]

We all are angry, but we need to find contructive ways to channel that anger and try to keep Bush from stripping us of our rights completely.My plan is to channel it all the way to British Columbia.

I was prepared to fight if Bush stole the election again. But if a majority of American voters willingly re-elected the worst president of the last 100 years, fuck it, they deserve what's coming to them.
That was just barely a majority. Almost half voted for change. Please don't leave and reduce that further.
I was going to suggest we all leave. We could trigger a Canadian economic boom while the US implodes under the weight of its own bigotry and arrogance.

[Petra]

I was going to suggest we all leave. We could trigger a Canadian economic boom while the US implodes under the weight of its own bigotry and arrogance.

And then, after said implosion, return to take it back. :chin:

Yeah, I can dig it.

[Godless Dave]

And then, after said implosion, return to take it back. :chin:
I don't know about that part. I already like Canada, and when global warming really takes off it might be an even better place to leave.

I'm serious. I feel like just giving up on this country. I'm not sure it deserves my hard work any more. And I'm tired of being in a political minority that is demonized for things we don't even stand for. It would be nice to live somewhere where my "far-left, elitist liberal" views are considered centrist and pragmatic (except for the weed thing).

[THX1138]

I'm serious. I feel like just giving up on this country. I'm not sure it deserves my hard work any more. And I'm tired of being in a political minority that is demonized for things we don't even stand for. It would be nice to live somewhere where my "far-left, elitist liberal" views are considered centrist and pragmatic (except for the weed thing).
My sentiments EXACTLY. :bow:

J

[Bella]

Not to be morose, or anything - but were we really expecting anything different?

[Godless Dave]

Not to be morose, or anything - but were we really expecting anything different?
Expecting, no, but hoping for. They were tied in the polls right up until the end. And some naive part of me thought that more than half the electorate would realize Bush is the worst president of the last 100 years. That part of me is now dead.

Kerry did manage to carry Minnesota without your vote.

[Petra]

And then, after said implosion, return to take it back. :chin:
I don't know about that part. I already like Canada, and when global warming really takes off it might be an even better place to leave.

I'm serious. I feel like just giving up on this country. I'm not sure it deserves my hard work any more. And I'm tired of being in a political minority that is demonized for things we don't even stand for.

I can understand that.

It would be nice to live somewhere where my "far-left, elitist liberal" views are considered centrist and pragmatic (except for the weed thing).

Yep. Canada's good for that. NZ is, too. :)

[Corwin]

Yep. Canada's good for that. NZ is, too.

NZ costs a damned fortune to get to unfortunately.

I don't even know what to say about all this. I'm frustrated, annoyed, and royally pissed off. How can these people be so stupid? I mean if this was someone like McCain being elected I'd still have opposed him, and would have voted democrat.... but SHRUB?!?!?!?!?!?

Shit.

[Petra]

NZ costs a damned fortune to get to unfortunately.



Yeah, that'll be our isolationist policy - Stick ourselves way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, as far away as possible from the rest of the world.

It works, too. 'Cepting we still seem to be quite close to Australia.

Oh, well. Can't have everything.

:D

[Goliath]

Kerry did manage to carry Minnesota without your vote.

Yep, thankfully, Bree didn't matter.

I'm still feeling a mixture of furious anger and depression over the election, though...I really wish I could let out a scream at the top of my lungs, but everyone in at least a 3 office radius would hear me.

[Goliath]

They voted based on their values, Goliath;

Then what the FUCK is wrong with their values!?

I'm serious when I say that I want to literally pick up, one by one, every single Bush-supporter by the neck, shake them vigorously in the air while screaming "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!" And I wouldn't move on to the next fucko until I got a suitable answer from the piece of human waste whose neck was currently in my hands.



From my understanding, Daschle homesteaded his place in DC, making him a "Washington asshole" and that pissed off the South Dakotans.



The Thune campaign somehow (don't ask me how) got a clip of Daschle saying "I'm a D.C. Resident." WELL NO FUCKING SHIT!! HE'S A GOD DAMN MOTHERFUCKING SENATOR!!! OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO BE A FUCKING D.C. RESIDENT!!!! GUESS THE FUCK WHAT?! THUNE WILL BE A D.C. RESIDENT, TOO! DOES THAT MAKE HIM AN EVIL FUCK AS WELL!?

Wait, Thune is ALREADY an evil fuck! :fuming:


We all are angry, but we need to find contructive ways to channel that anger and try to keep Bush from stripping us of our rights completely.

It's too late. It's only a matter of time. I predict that this country will be a Theocracy by December 31, 2006 (although I desperately hope that I'm wrong about that).

[lisarea]

Not to be morose, or anything - but were we really expecting anything different?

Oh, my. How hip and cynical of you.

Yeah, I fucking did. How stupid of me. I actually did expect something different. I expected better from you and people like you. I thought you'd do the right thing, and you didn't. In fucking droves.

Boy, did you guys ever show me!

You must feel so impossibly clever right now, how you sat home and cast your vote for apathy.

Still banking on not being drafted because you're gay? What a bonus that is! Oh, what delicious irony that the hate vote you refused to counter may have been the deciding factor. Works out OK for you, though, huh? You'll never get drafted.

Hey. Maybe you should rub my kid's nose in it, too. That little dork went out and voted! I'll have to tell him that, while he was trying to cling to any shred of optimism he could last night, you never gave up that whole detached hipness that sets you so apart from the sheeple like him. But hey, he's the one who runs the risk of being drafted, isn't he? You don't have to worry about that. Maybe you can point your finger at him and laugh when they try to send him off to die. Maybe you should remind him how stupid he was to give a shit about people who can't be bothered to give a shit about themselves.

Oh, better yet! What about those stupid gay people ALREADY IN THE MILITARY!? Those fools not only have to fight the wars you're too cool to care about, but they have to suffer for the discrimination you ALSO don't care about! What a bunch of dweebs!

Enjoy a hearty laugh, or at least a wry smirk or whatever it is you cool people do, at all our expenses!

You won!

[Goliath]

Yep, you won, Bree. How does it feel? Do you want lisarea's son to die, Bree?

[Godless Dave]

Right on, Lisarea.

[livius drusus]

Yep, you won, Bree. How does it feel? Do you want lisarea's son to die, Bree? What the fuck is wrong with you!?
Bree's comment was bullshit; lisa called her on it and did it well. Your comment, otoh, is just vituperative, rhetorical nonsense. You want to get your frustrations out? Fine. Go to the gym. The people on this board are not your or anyone else's punching bags.

[Goliath]

If I had meant for the questions in my post before this one to be rhetorical, I would not have asked them.

Edit: Okay, fine. I took out the last one. Are you happy, now? The question about whether or not Bree wants to see lisarea's son die was not rhetorical, BTW, I asked it in all seriousness.

[Adam]

Again, incriminations and accusations are not productive. Not that I haven't been guilty from time to time, but still...

[livius drusus]

Whatever, Goliath. So much for thinking the best of people. See ya.

[Farren]

Not to be morose, or anything - but were we really expecting anything different?

Oh, my. How hip and cynical of you.

...

Cool it Lisa. I didn't read the "A non-voter and proud of it" thread beyond the OP and I'm glad I didn't because that means I'm reading this in an emotionally unclouded state. Given the length of the thread (I just searched) I suspect it got to the very controversial stage.

The truth is Bree is cool. I can say this with some certainty because I've been reading her posts for about four years (since I joined IIDB). She's cool in a whole lot of ways. That she's a carrier for a single meme (voting in national elections is a waste of time) that's very not cool in your (and my) opinion doesn't make her a complete fucking asshole. Bree the person is a fuckload more than her antipathy to voting.

I'm a fucking asshole in this regard. I'm drunk, so I won't admit which very uncool memes I'm a carrier for 'cos its in my little treasure chest of the few things I'm still considering being overt about 'cos I know its not really cool but I suspect all but the most saintly of us are dickheads in one way or another.

As precious as Bree's vote is, the truth is the biggest culprits in the clusterfuck that is contemporary US politics are fundamentalists and the hatemongering fuckholes in charge of the Republican party in the USA right now, not Bree. As angry as you are about the outcome of this election, don't eat your own.

I'm convinced that your ideological enemies had as many, if not more apathy, given the dramatic registration figures for the Democrats in this election. The results of this election are a symptom of the sickness of fundamentalism, ignorance and stupidity in the US of A. Attitudes like Bree's are an exaserbating factor, not the primary cause.

[Goliath]

Again, incriminations and accusations are not productive. Not that I haven't been guilty from time to time, but still...

If you're referring to me, then what I say or do is completely irrelevant. Nothing that I do matters. The country is fucked regardless.

[Goliath]

Whatever, Goliath. So much for thinking the best of people. See ya.

Where, precisely, do you think I'm going?

[Farren]

And Liv, I think your comments on Lisa's rant are coloured by an affection that makes you use different yardsticks for Lisa and Goliath. Sorry, but I disagree. I didn't see Goliath's original post but a little evenhandedness in evaluating things wouldn't go amiss.

Lets not turn on each other.

With a whole lot of love, honestly,

Farren

[Goliath]

Lets not turn on each other.

With a whole lot of love, honestly,

Farren

Love? I'm honestly beginning to wonder what the point of love is nowadays.

Maybe it'll be one of those mysterious "values" that'll be forced upon us in 2005.

[Farren]

Lets not turn on each other.

With a whole lot of love, honestly,

Farren

Love? I'm honestly beginning to wonder what the point of love is nowadays.

Maybe it'll be one of those mysterious "values" that'll be forced upon us in 2005.

This begs answering :)

Love is when you care enough that when the other person hurts, you hurt, when they're happy, you're happy and when sometimes you realise that in order to help them be happy in the long term you sometimes have to say things that make them sad in the short term and other times you sometimes have to admit that you're an asshole or side up against another person you love, respect or admire.

And I love you, bro - and that's why I told you what I thought that your biggest problem interacting online was you on another thread and also why I think you've been unfairly impugned while someone else gets a free pass here.

If I'm sounding shmaltzy its the drink, tiredness and emotional overroughtness of having to watch America vote itself and by extension some of my friends down the crapper.

[livius drusus]

Whatever, Goliath. So much for thinking the best of people. See ya.

Where, precisely, do you think I'm going?

LOL. What, precisely, makes you think I was talking about you? Ever heard of people saying goodbye when they're leaving?

[Goliath]

Whatever, Goliath. So much for thinking the best of people. See ya.

Where, precisely, do you think I'm going?

LOL. What, precisely, makes you think I was talking about you? Ever heard of people saying goodbye when they're leaving?

But...you're an Admin....unless you meant just leaving the thread.

Fuck, the headache and slight buzz are starting to faintly come back.

[Farren]

Liv how many times have you seen this

:happywave:

(couldn't find the exact smiley but you know what I mean)

next to this

"Don't let the door hit you on your way out".

Give the general tone of the preceding remarks and the shit some of us have given Goliath over denotation and connotation I'd like to suggest that a double standard appears to be in place.

[livius drusus]

And Liv, I think your comments on Lisa's rant are coloured by an affection that makes you use different yardsticks for Lisa and Goliath. Sorry, but I disagree. I didn't see Goliath's original post but a little evenhandedness in evaluating things wouldn't go amiss.

You're right, Farren. lisa's writing inevitably slays me, so it's easy for me to support her. Goliath's rages, otoh, charm me not one whit, so I'm more likely to snap at him than at her.

It's just that lisa didn't ask a question like whether Bree wanted to see her son killed. She's pissed at Bree's air of laconic superiority, sure, but I don't see lisa actually questioning Bree for evidence of bloodlust. That's a whole other level of sick shit, imo, which is why I countered it.

I'm sorry for being uneven in my contempt, Goliath.

Lets not turn on each other.

It's hard, though, Farren. I don't want people like Bree or Cool Hand to be the targets of splenetic hatred here. I'm beginning to think our enclosure into liberal enclaves online has damaged our sense of proportion beyond all reason. The solution to that is more people with opposing viewpoints dissecting our positions, not beating the crap out of them.

Even purely for my own self-interest, my own edification, my attempts to understand, I want to have discussions, not ritualistic rendings of The Other. How do I discourage the latter?

With a whole lot of love, honestly,

Of course, Farren. Thank you for keeping me honest.

[Godless Dave]

I thought Goliath's question to Bree was appropriate, given Bree's earlier stated position that it did not matter whether Bush or Kerry won the election.

[livius drusus]

But...you're an Admin....unless you meant just leaving the thread.

Bingo.

Fuck, the headache and slight buzz are starting to faintly come back.

You know what to do. Do it.

[Goliath]

Thank you for the apology, liv. And thanks, Farren.


You know what to do. Do it.

I can't. A student will be coming in any minute. However, I know what to do at 3:00, when my office hours are over.

Between now and then, I'm going to stay away from this board and try to calm myself down. I apologize for angering you, and I apologize both to Bree and to lisarea for asking the question that I asked of Bree.

I still meant what I said in my OP, though.

/me sighs...

[livius drusus]

Give the general tone of the preceding remarks and the shit some of us have given Goliath over denotation and connotation I'd like to suggest that a double standard appears to be in place.

Nope. Sorry, Farren, I'm not buying that one. I have never suggested anyone leave this forum. I have worked assiduously in public and private for the opposite. He knows this. If he wants to think the worst of me, he's welcome to it, but I have given him every reason not to and so will not accept the burden of having to reassure him that I was talking about my movements and not his.

[Lauri D]

I'm so depressed. So depressed. So depressed. SO. DEPRESSED.

I don't think I can be nice to anyone in the next few days that might happen to have voted for Bush. I am thinking bad, evil thoughts and would also like to scream at the whole country, collectively, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

So.

Depressed.

:sobbing:

[Petra]

Farren, I love you man, but I'm with lisarea and GodlessDave on this issue.

I like Bree, too, and if we are not going anywhere near politics, we can be civil and friendly.

But in this one thing, I think lisarea is bang on. And I most sincerely hope that her son - who, by all accounts, sounds like a pretty amazing young man - will never have to go to war.

I sincerely hope he is able to stay safe and live among us for a very, very, very long time. Young men like him are rare and so very valuable. Thanks for raising him to be the way he is, lisarea. :bow:

[SharonDee]

I'm so depressed. So depressed. So depressed. SO. DEPRESSED.

I don't think I can be nice to anyone in the next few days that might happen to have voted for Bush. I am thinking bad, evil thoughts and would also like to scream at the whole country, collectively, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

So.

Depressed.

:sobbing:
That is SO what I was saying at 7:00 this morning. You go ahead and cry, honey; let it out. I have had a few good ones myself today and I recommend it.

:hugsmile:

[Farren]

Farren, I love you man, but I'm with lisarea and GodlessDave on this issue.

I like Bree, too, and if we are not going anywhere near politics, we can be civil and friendly.

But in this one thing, I think lisarea is bang on. And I most sincerely hope that her son - who, by all accounts, sounds like a pretty amazing young man - will never have to go to war.

I sincerely hope he is able to stay safe and live among us for a very, very, very long time. Young men like him are rare and so very valuable. Thanks for raising him to be the way he is, lisarea. :bow:

Yeah but she didn't give indication that she likes Bree too. Taken in isolation, her post was pure venom. As partial as I am to Lisa's rants, I only enjoy them without a guilty conscience when their targets are scattershot - a whole demographic or uninvolved person. I must admit that they make me uncomfortable when they're so honed and targeted on someone who has such obvious merit in many departments.

And Liv, perhaps its my state (mildly intoxicated) but I read exactly the same thing into your comment that Goliath did. Fine, logic dictates it would be slightly out of character for you to show a guest the door but you wouldn't be Liv if you stuck to a pattern in a robotic fashion. Your independent-mindedness (and commensurate unpredictability) is an essential ingredient of your divine Drususness.

[Scotty]

It is a little interesting but as far as I can tell our entire office is pretty much bummed out this morning. Odd that an entire group of people that helps not-for-profits would be that way, isn't it? An entire group of people that just likes to help other people is sad this morning.

I wonder why that is?

-Scott

[Darren]

First of all, deepest sympathies to all of you Americans (even those who voted for the incumbent president) on the re-election of Bush. It is a national catastrophe for you and a global catastrophe for the rest of us who watched helplessly as the wrong choices were made again.
I think your media is largely to blame for failing to ram home the basic truths about the USA's global impact - esp. with respect to the environment, social justice, international law and "world peace".
Four more years - yes that's probably enough to set off the definitive decline of the American Empire. You are now over extended, engaged or implicated in too many conflict zones to cope, especially with your record budget deficit.
All we can hope for now is that the descent will not be too rough!
Imagine getting worked up over the issues of gay marriage and abortion when conservative estimates of the Iraqi death toll due to the invasion put it at over the hundred thousand mark! So the message is - meddle in people's private lives and choices at home and literally to hell with the rest of the world! It is indeed a very sad day.

[livius drusus]

And Liv, perhaps its my state (mildly intoxicated) but I read exactly the same thing into your comment that Goliath did. Fine, logic dictates it would be slightly out of character for you to show a guest the door but you wouldn't be Liv if you stuck to a pattern in a robotic fashion. Your independent-mindedness (and commensurate unpredictability) is an essential ingredient of your divine Drususness.

Hey! Don't think you can flatter me into blushing prettily at being called erratic. It wouldn't be slightly out of character; it would be outlandishly out of character.

That's cool, though. Goliath got my meaning later and I confirmed his understanding was correct. If I were more erratic, I'd suggest a group hug. :P

[Nil Desperandum]

It is a little interesting but as far as I can tell our entire office is pretty much bummed out this morning. Odd that an entire group of people that helps not-for-profits would be that way, isn't it? An entire group of people that just likes to help other people is sad this morning.

I wonder why that is?

-Scott
That is about the most depressing thing I've ever heard. :(

[Scotty]

Sorry Nil.

I was wondering. Did the "founding fathers" feel the same way about their government?

-Scott

[Nil Desperandum]

That's cool, though. Goliath got my meaning later and I confirmed his understanding was correct. If I were more erratic, I'd suggest a group hug. :P

Yay, a group hug!

http://www.jeffwillet.com/group_hug.jpg

[Petra]

Yeah but she didn't give indication that she likes Bree too.Well, I can't speak for lisarea here - maybe she does like Bree overall, maybe she doesn't. Taken in isolation, her post was pure venom.Oh, honey, lisarea ain't got nothing on the venom I shot Bree in that thread you didn't read. Seriously.

Yet, several days later, we were exchanging astrology chat. Go figure.

As partial as I am to Lisa's rants, I only enjoy them without a guilty conscience when their targets are scattershot - a whole demographic or uninvolved person. I must admit that they make me uncomfortable when they're so honed and targeted on someone who has such obvious merit in many departments.

Hey, I've been at the end of her spear a few times. So what? I still like her a whole hell of a lot. Even if she can whip my ass thrice round the globe, leaving me bruised and battered and licking my wounds.

In this, I'm way more sympathetic to lisarea's perspective than I am to Bree's, and I agree with lisarea 100%.

Shit, I bit my tongue when I saw Bree's post in here. I'm going to have a good day and get on with my life as I resign myself to a world with Bush for the next 4 more years. But, damn, for a moment I wanted kick out - hard.

Lisarea was actually more measured and restrained than I would have been had I allowed myself to take the bait. And I don't have a child who may have to go to war for the PNAC on a lie. I don't have that most horrible fear in my cushy little kiwi world.

[lisarea]

Not to be morose, or anything - but were we really expecting anything different?

Oh, my. How hip and cynical of you.

...

Cool it Lisa. I didn't read the "A non-voter and proud of it" thread beyond the OP and I'm glad I didn't because that means I'm reading this in an emotionally unclouded state. Given the length of the thread (I just searched) I suspect it got to the very controversial stage.

Farren, you know I like you, right? So know I'm not ascribing malicious motivations to you, but don't you ever tell me to cool it. You are not privvy to my state of mind, and I can assure you that I'm not histrionic. I'm mad rational.

As to that thread, yes, it did get to the controversial stage. And I did disagree with Bree's conclusions and with her justifications, but I believe that I at least remained patient and understanding, for the most part. She may have been attacked, but not by me. I know you didn't claim this, but I say this in case that was your assumption.

Just about every time one of her arguments was addressed directly, she dodged by either bringing up some other objection, or ignoring it entirely with one-off arguments like "same shit, different flavors."

In fact, I got the distinct impression that she wasn't even reading anything but the flames.


The truth is Bree is cool. I can say this with some certainty because I've been reading her posts for about four years (since I joined IIDB). She's cool in a whole lot of ways. That she's a carrier for a single meme (voting in national elections is a waste of time) that's very not cool in your (and my) opinion doesn't make her a complete fucking asshole. Bree the person is a fuckload more than her antipathy to voting.

I know she's cool in many ways, and I never said she wasn't. I do, however, find her position on this issue untenable, and her attitude in the post I replied to arrogant, inconsiderate, and ignorant.

Yes, many of us did expect a different outcome. People who are more familiar with the system than she is. People who chose to participate in the process.

I do resent her response a great deal, because I see it as denigrating to those of us who were naive enough to care about the outcome, or to believe that the results could be different.

As precious as Bree's vote is, the truth is the biggest culprits in the clusterfuck that is contemporary US politics are fundamentalists and the hatemongering fuckholes in charge of the Republican party in the USA right now, not Bree. As angry as you are about the outcome of this election, don't eat your own.

Apathetic voters are not my own, though. My own are the people who did what they could, rather than blowing the whole thing off. My own are people like my brother who volunteered for the Kerry campaign all day yesterday and the days leading up, despite the fact that he has a massive presentation due on his PhD today that will undoubtedly suffer for it. He hasn't fucking slept. And I take great offense to people denigrating his efforts, and the efforts of everyone else who worked so hard to bring about change.

I'm convinced that your ideological enemies had as many, if not more apathy, given the dramatic registration figures for the Democrats in this election. The results of this election are a symptom of the sickness of fundamentalism, ignorance and stupidity in the US of A. Attitudes like Bree's are an exaserbating factor, not the primary cause.

Of course. Attitudes such as Bree's are less odious than the attitudes of those who got out the hate vote. So?

[Petra]

http://www.jeffwillet.com/group_hug.jpg

While those near naked men in that pic are a little to muscled for my liking, I'm still finding myself rather turned on by that image.

:lecher:

[Nil Desperandum]

While those near naked men in that pic are a little to muscled for my liking, I'm still finding myself rather turned on by that image.

:lecher:

Ok, these guys are a little less muscled...

http://www.office-assist.com/~jarvis/woods2003/group_hug.jpg

[Petra]

It is a little interesting but as far as I can tell our entire office is pretty much bummed out this morning. Odd that an entire group of people that helps not-for-profits would be that way, isn't it? An entire group of people that just likes to help other people is sad this morning.

I wonder why that is?

-Scott

Oh, man. I'm so sorry. As ND said, that is really depressing. And kinda says it all, huh. :(

[Petra]

I just had a thought!

One o'them Indian astrologers reckoned that Bush would not be able to sit through his entire second term for some reason.

Either he's gonna die or something, or he's gonna be impeached!


Yes! I'm a believer! :bow:

[lisarea]

Farren, I am slow. Very very slow. I just realized that you are misunderstanding something very fundamental here.

I do not hate Bree. There are very few people in this world that I hate.

There are plenty of ideas I hate, though. I hate Bree's attitude and her stance on that specific issue, and I am deeply offended by her dismissive response.

I don't hate HER. Never have.

[Darren]

That's wishful thinking. Perhaps he'll just develop a bad case of haemorrhoids.

[SharonDee]

I just had a thought!

One o'them Indian astrologers reckoned that Bush would not be able to sit through his entire second term for some reason.

Either he's gonna die or something, or he's gonna be impeached!
Personally, I think we should all pitch in and send a crate of pretzels to the White House. :yup:

[Petra]

Personally, I think we should all pitch in and send a crate of pretzels to the White House. :yup:

Damn, you're good.


[Mr. Burns] Eeexcellent! [/Mr. Burns]

[Blake]

A satisfying image, luna. :)

Well-argued, lisarea.

I'm so shocked. I'm still adjusting.

Reform is off; back to revolution.

[xorbie]

Me, I'm just numb. I stayed up until 2:30 am clicking refresh madly on CNN's page, and eventually fell asleep at 5:30 in the middle of my homework. I didn't go to any of my classes today, and I'm finding it impossible to study.

[godfry n. glad]

I just had a thought!

One o'them Indian astrologers reckoned that Bush would not be able to sit through his entire second term for some reason.

Either he's gonna die or something, or he's gonna be impeached!


Yes! I'm a believer! :bow:

You forgot about the possibility that he could be cursed with a really, really bad case of hemorrhoids.

godfry

[Corwin]

Me, I'm just numb. I stayed up until 2:30 am clicking refresh madly on CNN's page, and eventually fell asleep at 5:30 in the middle of my homework. I didn't go to any of my classes today, and I'm finding it impossible to study.

I fell asleep in front of the TV... (very unusual for me...)

Well other than leaving the country, possibly we could get something going? Impeach the lot of them? (I mean they've publically committed more than enough impeachable offenses... forget lying about a blowjob, these guys have gone on record with positions that arguably violate their oaths of office....)

[godfry n. glad]

Me, I'm just numb. I stayed up until 2:30 am clicking refresh madly on CNN's page, and eventually fell asleep at 5:30 in the middle of my homework. I didn't go to any of my classes today, and I'm finding it impossible to study.

I fell asleep in front of the TV... (very unusual for me...)

Well other than leaving the country, possibly we could get something going? Impeach the lot of them? (I mean they've publically committed more than enough impeachable offenses... forget lying about a blowjob, these guys have gone on record with positions that arguably violate their oaths of office....)

Ahem... I hate to inform you of this, but impeachment takes a supermajority in the House of Representatives, which is now controlled by the Repugnantcans. If some miracle could bring about impeachment, they'd still have to stand trial before the Senate...which just became a whole lot more Repugnantcan.

We now have all three parts of the government in the control of the conservative moral fascists, including both houses of the legislature. There will be no impeachment of this crowd. If anything, impeachment will be visited upon those who had the kahunas to challenge the dominant political machine.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

godfry

(I personally like the "case of pretzels" approach, but I'm pretty sure der SS would wrestle them to the ground first.)

[Farren]

Farren, I am slow. Very very slow. I just realized that you are misunderstanding something very fundamental here.

I do not hate Bree. There are very few people in this world that I hate.

There are plenty of ideas I hate, though. I hate Bree's attitude and her stance on that specific issue, and I am deeply offended by her dismissive response.

I don't hate HER. Never have.

:D

I'm glad you posted that. I have no further objections. And I must say I love you babes. I do. I adore you. I just needed to see you say that. Because Bree is cool.

[godfry n. glad]

Farren, I am slow. Very very slow. I just realized that you are misunderstanding something very fundamental here.

I do not hate Bree. There are very few people in this world that I hate.

There are plenty of ideas I hate, though. I hate Bree's attitude and her stance on that specific issue, and I am deeply offended by her dismissive response.

I don't hate HER. Never have.

:D

I'm glad you posted that. I have no further objections. And I must say I love you babes. I do. I adore you. I just needed to see you say that. Because Bree is cool.


You know another curiosity about this thread?

Bree made a snide comment and everybody assumed that she followed through on her threat to not bother voting.

Did anybody stop to make sure that was indeed the case? Did anybody ask if she actually voted or not?

I didn't see any such. Did I miss something?

To be quite frank, I feel much the same as Bree. And I voted. And it sure wasn't for Bushette. If I'd known that this was going to be the outcome, I would have cast my vote for somebody whose platform policies were more in tune with my politics.

godfry

(and...by the way, this is why we have a secret ballot, folks....to prevent retaliation for what one did or did not do in the polling booth.)

[Petra]

Bree made a snide comment and everybody assumed that she followed through on her threat to not bother voting.

Did anybody stop to make sure that was indeed the case? Did anybody ask if she actually voted or not?

I didn't see any such. Did I miss something?

Well, she did keep her "Not Voting - For President" title under her user name up until the elections were over. Sure that's not absolute evidence that she didn't vote, but I think I can safely assume that she didn't.

But anyway, lets' not make this thread about Bree, eh?



And as for you pussycats who had to stay up till 2.30am and 5.30am and such - I've been up all night catching bits of tv election specials, internet news, political satire, putting my two cents worth on BB's, etc - it's now 11.27am, and I have even just mowed my lawns. Y'all are soft. :P

[Petra]

(and...by the way, this is why we have a secret ballot, folks....to prevent retaliation for what one did or did not do in the polling booth.)

Correct.

[lisarea]

You know another curiosity about this thread?

Bree made a snide comment and everybody assumed that she followed through on her threat to not bother voting.

Did anybody stop to make sure that was indeed the case? Did anybody ask if she actually voted or not?

I didn't see any such. Did I miss something?

Well, I figure it's reasonable to assume she stuck to her promise not to vote in the presidential election, as she continued to defend that position throughout her proud non-voter thread, and then maintained a similar attitude here.

No, I guess she didn't explicitly state today that she had kept her promise, but she never wavered on that issue, to my knowledge.


(and...by the way, this is why we have a secret ballot, folks....to prevent retaliation for what one did or did not do in the polling booth.)

FWIW, I have not and do not plan to retaliate against Bree. I didn't beat her up, I didn't sign her up for spam, egg her front door, or enter damaging notations on her credit report.

And I am uncharacteristically confident that I can speak for just about everyone here when I pledge that we have engaged in no such retaliation, and have no plans to. Anyone: Correct me if I'm wrong.

And we didn't learn about Bree's political opinions by sneaking a peek at her ballot. She brought it up. She expressed pride in her decision. I disagree with her conclusions, and with the reasoning behind them. Should I have covered my ears and sang LALALA when she expressed her opinions, for fear of discovering her 'secret'? When I find someone's position untenable, should I just keep my opinions to myself because they might make that person feel yucky? I'm sorry. I reserve that kind of treatment for incompetents. If you're in the grip of senile dementia, if you're three years old, if you're schizophrenic or on a really bad acid trip, yeah, I'll let you slide if you say something I think is wrong. But that's only because I know you're incapable of defending your positions. I'm not going to treat Bree like that, because I know she's not incompetent.

[viscousmemories]

I agree that Bree invited criticism of her justification for not voting by starting that thread and wearing the custom title announcing her intentions, and I don't personally think lisa's comments went beyond doing just that. I feel like there's more I'd like to say but I guess not, 'cause nothing's coming to mind.

[godfry n. glad]

FWIW, I have not and do not plan to retaliate against Bree. I didn't beat her up, I didn't sign her up for spam, egg her front door, or enter damaging notations on her credit report.



Yeah? Then what was that screed that you unloaded on her in this thread?

I'll tell you....It's a big fuckin' guilt trip. (i.e., retaliation)

I'll bet she's just rarin' to listen to your political viewpoints and consider them reasonably. I mean, I always do that in circumstances where folks attempt to browbeat me and guilt trip me.

Don't you?

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

I agree that Bree invited criticism of her justification for not voting by starting that thread and wearing the custom title announcing her intentions, and I don't personally think lisa's comments went beyond doing just that. I feel like there's more I'd like to say but I guess not, 'cause nothing's coming to mind.

Cripes, vm, my comments to One For Sorrow on HH were more restrained than lisa's comments to Bree here.

And...that custom title is supposed to be accurate? I believe I was reprimanded for assuming the same at HH....by you, if I remember correctly.

godfry

[lisarea]

Yeah? Then what was that screed that you unloaded on her in this thread?

I'll tell you....It's a big fuckin' guilt trip. (i.e., retaliation)

I'm pissed off at her. Guilt trip? I dunno, but it's not an unfair assessment.

How is it retaliation to point out to what I think is wrong about her position?


I'll bet she's just rarin' to listen to your political viewpoints and consider them reasonably. I mean, I always do that in circumstances where folks attempt to browbeat me and guilt trip me.

I don't really expect her to listen to my political viewpoints and consider them reasonably. She ignored several attempts to discuss the issues with her rationally before. Please go back and look. Most people tried to be patient and understanding, and to discuss the issues she brought up. I know I tried to, personally, and I put a great deal of time and effort into explaining the issues, providing other viewpoints, etc.

Her response was much dropping of pins and chirping of crickets.

I'm not trying to reason with her. Her response made me very mad.

I'm a little uncomfortable discussing her position here without her input, but I will stand by what I've said.

[Petra]

I don't really expect her to listen to my political viewpoints and consider them reasonably. She ignored several attempts to discuss the issues with her rationally before. Please go back and look. Most people tried to be patient and understanding, and to discuss the issues she brought up. I know I tried to, personally, and I put a great deal of time and effort into explaining the issues, providing other viewpoints, etc.

Her response was much dropping of pins and chirping of crickets.

I'm not trying to reason with her. Her response made me very mad.

I'm a little uncomfortable discussing her position here without her input, but I will stand by what I've said.


I have to agree.

And I believe that sometimes anger and disappointment should be expressed.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light!"



Godfrey, if I angrily tell my flatmate that I think he's being a completely fucked fucking fucker if he constantly leaves me dirty dishes and never helps out at all even though we've discussed all the whys and wherefores of his responsibility in our shared house over and over again, am I guilt tripping him or expressing my (imo, justified) anger? Which principle is greater - a persons right to express anger; or a persons right to never have to feel guilty, and we should protect them from ever having to feel guilty, poor soul, even if it means repressing our own anger at that persons words or actions (or in this case, boastful inaction).

[Petra]

I'm a little uncomfortable discussing her position here without her input, but I will stand by what I've said.

Ditto.

[LadyShea]

I am going to derail the derailment to shine a little hope light about yesterday

And a record number of us voted to change course—more Americans voted against George Bush than any sitting president in history.

Tens of millions of us are disappointed today because we put so much of ourselves into this election. We donated money, we talked to friends, we knocked on doors. We invested ourselves in the political process.

That process does not end today. These are not short-term investments. We will only create lasting change if that sense of obligation and responsibility becomes a permanent part of our lives.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."



This little message brought to us by Howard Dean http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

[Petra]

Thanks, Lady Shea. :)

As BB2 said in another thread - I, too, feel very sorry for the 50,000,000+ people who didn't vote for him, although it is heartening that there are so many of you to feel sad for (if that makes any sense...).

[Blake]

To come back to an old rail of the thread: Impeachment only requires a majority of the House, but a supermajority of the Senate to convict; Clinton was impeached by something like 214-212, party-line vote, and not convicted something like 55-45, again on a party-line vote.

Comes to exactly the same as what godfry said: Never going to happen. I think it is worth trying to "impeach" Bush's character in the public consciousness, to try to leave a lasting consensus that he's a phony and a grasping elitist, not a down-home morally just man. I'd like to see his character assassinated by the truth for all time.

It would be an ostensibly nonpartisan but in fact very effective Democratic organizing tactic just to reach out to, educate and discuss current affairs in enough depth with enough people that a majority of the electorate is participating in the same actual reality next time.

[Petra]

Well, if impeachment is out of the question, then I am definitely up for the pretzel idea.

[godfry n. glad]

Yeah? Then what was that screed that you unloaded on her in this thread?

I'll tell you....It's a big fuckin' guilt trip. (i.e., retaliation)

I'm pissed off at her. Guilt trip? I dunno, but it's not an unfair assessment.

How is it retaliation to point out to what I think is wrong about her position?


I'll bet she's just rarin' to listen to your political viewpoints and consider them reasonably. I mean, I always do that in circumstances where folks attempt to browbeat me and guilt trip me.

I don't really expect her to listen to my political viewpoints and consider them reasonably. She ignored several attempts to discuss the issues with her rationally before. Please go back and look. Most people tried to be patient and understanding, and to discuss the issues she brought up. I know I tried to, personally, and I put a great deal of time and effort into explaining the issues, providing other viewpoints, etc.

Her response was much dropping of pins and chirping of crickets.

I'm not trying to reason with her. Her response made me very mad.

I'm a little uncomfortable discussing her position here without her input, but I will stand by what I've said.

As well you should. It's your opinion, but it's still retaliation, or an attempt thereof for not doing as you'd wished she'd done.

Listen... I'm not above throwing around emotionally charged terms. Everybody who knows me from other boards knows that. I've been almost as harsh with others about the very same topic. I've thought about that ever since. When I saw Bree's statement, I gave a wry acknowledgement of the irony. I don't have that high a respect for the general voting public. (I guess that's because I'm a "liberal elitist", huh?) That's the result of usually being on the losing end of most important electoral issues. Between the intelligence of the average voter and the skill of the political machine in manipulating those voters, the Repugnantcans have pulled the fat from the fire. It anybody's guess how much manipulation of the vote counting mechanisms and voter rolls was done by either side before or during this election, but I have yet to hear of anything as egregious as the Florida/Supreme Court debacle of 2000.

It is my considered opinion that your response to her snide remark did nothing to change her mind. If anything, your response probably rigidified her position. I'm just guessing, but if you'd drubbed me like that for expressing my opinion, I certainly wouldn't give your position more credence.

But that's just my opinion. :cool:

Just out of interest, does anyone have a handy list of those states which had "gay marriage" ballot measures?

How do those states match with the "battleground states" of the campaign?

Is there a congruence there?

It's also my opinion that grassroots is good. How many people here have been to their city council meeting? Or the local government, be it city, county, village, canton, parish, riding, district, borough or hiding?

Do you know how it works? Do you know how bloody boring it is? :yawn: (Just a warning. I've sat through interminable meetings; believe me, it's a skill.)

That's the governing process. Then there's the electoral process to become a designated representative with an official vote.

Has anybody here even been a precinct committeeperson for their political party? It's a great place to start, and even the younger parties would be thrilled to have precinct contacts they could utilize for organizational stuff. Or as a campaign volunteer for a candidate you sorta know... Remember, though....this is all volunteer. And a precinct is more households than you think....and this is extrovert stuff.

So, with all that, lisa, your opinion is your opinion. Mine is mine. I'm just as guilty for tromping on you as you are on Bree as she is on us all. We're all entitled to it all...so far. :D

Can we stop bickering and do something constructive? Even if Bree thinks it's pointless?

godfry

[beyelzu]

Lisa,

I think your post to bree was out of line, I even agree with you but still over the fucking top.

[HelenM]

Just out of interest, does anyone have a handy list of those states which had "gay marriage" ballot measures?

How do those states match with the "battleground states" of the campaign?

Is there a congruence there?

I posted a list of them on page 1 of this thread. Ohio was one of them.

Helen

[godfry n. glad]

Just out of interest, does anyone have a handy list of those states which had "gay marriage" ballot measures?

How do those states match with the "battleground states" of the campaign?

Is there a congruence there?

I posted a list of them on page 1 of this thread. Ohio was one of them.

Helen

Thanks, Helen...

Voters in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah all approved anti-same-sex marriage amendments by double-digit margins.

So... I think that list doesn't really mesh too well with the "battleground states" as I understood them. I understood the southern states to be Bushites Leaving Michigan, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon and Utah.

I'd say right off that Montana and Utah were pretty much Bush states.

That leaves Ohio and Michigan, along with Oregon, which ceased to be a battleground state early in the final campaign, and subsequently went Kerry.

Oregon, I know, in the last election was a very close finish, finally falling into the Gore column very late. It was worth campaigning here in hopes of moving enough voters to go vote and when doing it, vote for Bush.

The story I was told is that Rove did constituent testing to determine hot buttons...issues which would motivate them to go to the polls. Top of his short list: gay marriage. Evidently, the issue turns out lots of reaction voters, who, while filling out their ballot, do one for good ol' boy George Bush.

But only two states, and another possible, were "battleground states". One, however, was Ohio.

Any other spins on this rumor? Will this dawg run?

godfry

[viscousmemories]

Cripes, vm, my comments to One For Sorrow on HH were more restrained than lisa's comments to Bree here.

And...that custom title is supposed to be accurate? I believe I was reprimanded for assuming the same at HH....by you, if I remember correctly.
I don't think the two situations are comparable, really. When Bree started her A non voter and proud of it, or, Why are people mean to me? (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=752) thread, she clearly stated that she has no intention of voting in the Presidential election, and that her custom title (which was something like "Not voting in 2004 and proud of it") was chosen to reflect that.

Lisa and others (including me) took the time to give what I think were some very good arguments for her to vote anyway, and despite the fact that she didn't respond to most of the arguments and reasserted her original rationalization a couple times, in the end she conceded that she would vote in the elections but still not for a President. At that time she changed her custom title to something like "Not voting for President in 2004" to reflect that change in her position.

In light of that I honestly didn't find lisa's post here at all overboard. Yeah of course it was sarcastic and sharp, but each point was directly related to the exact arguments that took place in Bree's thread. She wasn't just namecalling or belittling her out of the blue. (And that isn't meant in contrast to your comments in HH, because honestly I don't even remember them now).

I have nothing against Bree personally and as I've said before I've been apathetic and uninvolved in politics all my life so it's not like I hold that against her either. But when someone who lives in a swing state makes a big production about her intention to not vote, then rhetorically asks if anyone expected it to go any differently in a forum full of people who begged her to vote... well I guess she's going to have to expect to answer to one or two pissed off people.

[The Lone Ranger]

Well, if impeachment is out of the question, then I am definitely up for the pretzel idea.

I wouldn't. Seriously. Threatening the life of the President is a crime.

We live in a country where you can be arrested for wearing a t-shirt that says "Preserve Our Civil Liberties" to a Bush rally. I wouldn't be at all surprised if sending Bush some pretzels would earn you a visit from some earnest men in dark suits.

[I was listening to the BBC yesterday, and a commentator was going on about how, outside the U.S., Bush is the most hated American President in living memory. Maybe our overseas friends should send Bush "congratulatory" bags of pretzels, but I honestly think it would be a bad idea for U.S. citizens to do so. And if that's not a sad commentary on the state that we've reached, I don't know what is.]

-- Michael

[Petra]

Michael! Sweetheart! We only wish to congatulate the man on his victory, in the spirit of good sportsmanship, by sending our most heartfelt regards through pretzels and good cheer.

I'm shattered that you would think I meant anything less. Please!

:naughty:

[Godless Dave]

Well, if impeachment is out of the question, then I am definitely up for the pretzel idea.
I wouldn't. Seriously. Threatening the life of the President is a crime.

We live in a country where you can be arrested for wearing a t-shirt that says "Preserve Our Civil Liberties" to a Bush rally. I wouldn't be at all surprised if sending Bush some pretzels would earn you a visit from some earnest men in dark suits.
That's why you use a fake return address.

Me, I'm going to send him booze. At least then I'll know he'll use it.

[beyelzu]

Well, if impeachment is out of the question, then I am definitely up for the pretzel idea.

I wouldn't. Seriously. Threatening the life of the President is a crime.

We live in a country where you can be arrested for wearing a t-shirt that says "Preserve Our Civil Liberties" to a Bush rally. I wouldn't be at all surprised if sending Bush some pretzels would earn you a visit from some earnest men in dark suits.

[I was listening to the BBC yesterday, and a commentator was going on about how, outside the U.S., Bush is the most hated American President in living memory. Maybe our overseas friends should send Bush "congratulatory" bags of pretzels, but I honestly think it would be a bad idea for U.S. citizens to do so. And if that's not a sad commentary on the state that we've reached, I don't know what is.]

-- Michael


somehow I suspect that new zeland wont extradite her for vague internet threats to send the president pretzels.

At least I hope not, I was thinking of NZ as the place I intend to apply for political refugee status when Shrub outlaws atheism. :D

[godfry n. glad]

Cripes, vm, my comments to One For Sorrow on HH were more restrained than lisa's comments to Bree here.

And...that custom title is supposed to be accurate? I believe I was reprimanded for assuming the same at HH....by you, if I remember correctly.
I don't think the two situations are comparable, really. When Bree started her A non voter and proud of it, or, Why are people mean to me? (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=752) thread, she clearly stated that she has no intention of voting in the Presidential election, and that her custom title (which was something like "Not voting in 2004 and proud of it") was chosen to reflect that.

Lisa and others (including me) took the time to give what I think were some very good arguments for her to vote anyway, and despite the fact that she didn't respond to most of the arguments and reasserted her original rationalization a couple times, in the end she conceded that she would vote in the elections but still not for a President. At that time she changed her custom title to something like "Not voting for President in 2004" to reflect that change in her position.

In light of that I honestly didn't find lisa's post here at all overboard. Yeah of course it was sarcastic and sharp, but each point was directly related to the exact arguments that took place in Bree's thread. She wasn't just namecalling or belittling her out of the blue. (And that isn't meant in contrast to your comments in HH, because honestly I don't even remember them now).



Yeah. Okay. I can go with that.

godfry