Holding the line

[LadyShea]

Apparently, the American people voted entirely for their conservative values yesterday, even to their own economic detriment. Those of us that lean a bit more to the left cannot afford to be complacent or let "someone else do it" if we hope not to get goose stepped over for the next four years. Also, please don't leave. Remember, almost 50% voted against Bush. Half the population is a major force to be reckoned with if we get organized.

Please join or support those organizations that will be pushing back, trying to hold the line for the next 4 years. I think the various CSS organizations, the ACLU, any large GLBT rights groups, NOW, and others will be our "front line" defense and they need the close 50% of voters who wanted change, or to stem the tide of repressive values, behind them.

Keeping informed isn't enough, discussing with our small circle isn't enough, stewing isn't useful at all.

Thoughts? Plans?

[Petra]

Naturally, I can not be an activist in America. But I salute you, LS, and anyone else who gets involved in such a way. Major kudos, and the very best of luck, my friends. :yup:

[freemonkey]

Thanks for the reminder to take a positive action, LS. :yup:

Anyone know which group would be most likely to challenge this election's results?

[LadyShea]

Thanks for the reminder to take a positive action, LS. :yup:

Anyone know which group would be most likely to challenge this election's results?

It's already being done, but the Democratic party, ACLU, and MoveOn would be good IMMEDIATE starts.

[wildernesse]

I'm planning on the usual bombardment of letters/emails to my reps--although I'll have to focus more on the state level now, since GA's state assembly seems to be overwhelmingly Republican. This endangers abortion rights especially, since the Dems pretty much kept that issue off the floor while they were in control. As well as our own special set of faith-based initiatives.

I've been thinking about what more I could do--action-wise, besides the letters. I'll keep my eyes open for opportunities to be heard. Perhaps we'll be able to donate $ to the groups we are already involved with.

Maybe there needs to be some type of concerted effort--weekly meetings and action by those who want there to be change. I think there will need to be a lot more work in the trenches--boring, thankless work--that might pull in people who are not otherwise working on this. I don't know. Maybe there aren't enough of us to matter in the long run, but I really don't know what to do.

Arrggh.

[viscousmemories]

I'm with you, LadyShea. I've avoided politics most of my life because I had no faith in the American people. In fact I used to justify my inaction by saying, "My views make me a minority in a country ruled by the majority. I don't speak up because nobody will hear it."

However I've come to believe that isn't true. People hear, you just have to chisel through years of exposure to misinformation and ignorance to get them to. Hey, once upon a time a majority of Americans favored keeping slaves and not letting women vote. We didn't get where we are today because reasonable opponents to that type of thinking fled to Canada. Optimism doesn't really suit me, but I'm gonna stick around and try to make a difference.

[dave_a]

I am a fan of LTEs, or letters to the edittor of newspapers.

Surprisingly it appears a lot of people read them.

MAP (Media Awareness Project) has instructions on how to write them effectively as well as links to web submission forms to many papers and directories to papers lacking a web submission form.

I have found that it helps to actually read the paper as many will publish LTEs related to recent stories they ran.

LTEs are a decent way to express your views in a one sided fashion, that is, there is no debate unless the paper runs an opposing view. Short, pithy, level headed and you stand a good chance of getting published.

I wrote a pro pot one approaching from the libertarian angle of personal choice and it got published in a conservative, small town paper which surprised me. It was the first LTE I wrote around 3 years ago. In it I got to dispell some myths being perpetuated by a nurse who wrote an article on the dangers of pot like she was some kind of authority.

Pick your issue, settle on the argument you consider most likely to be considered by the paper's circulation and write it. Most LTEs need to be 300 words or less so the average poster here should have no difficulty with it.

[freemonkey]

Perhaps we should try to start an organization dedicated to teaching people to think (forgive me, I'm having a brain fart regarding the correct term) rationally.

[wildernesse]

Ooh, Datonac. LTE. Me likey. After reading the mindless piffle that appears in the local LTEs at times, I'm pretty sure I could pull that off. I can even write thoughtful piffle, when the mood strikes.

And the local family is used to RA's liberal LTE's, so I shouldn't even have to worry about confrontation!

Thanks for the reminder.

[viscousmemories]

I am a fan of LTEs, or letters to the edittor of newspapers.
When I was 13 I wrote a letter to the editor of the Ann Arbor News to express outrage at the students being branded as "troubled youths" in an article about the school for juvenile delinquents I was enrolled in. Ironically my objection was not to the other students being so branded - I actually agreed with that assessment of them - but with the fact that by implication, they were talking about me.

The blurb was published and the teachers at the school hung it on the wall to showcase my defense of the place. Although I do think it was a good thing to give a voice to some kids who wouldn't otherwise have one, I feel ashamed in retrospect knowing that I was just being a little sanctimonious prick.

[viscousmemories]

Perhaps we should try to start an organization dedicated to teaching people to think (forgive me, I'm having a brain fart regarding the correct term) rationally.
Was that intentionally ironic? :P

Did you mean think critically?

[freemonkey]

Perhaps we should try to start an organization dedicated to teaching people to think (forgive me, I'm having a brain fart regarding the correct term) rationally.
Was that intentionally ironic? :P

Did you mean think critically?
That's the word, thank you. Not intentionally ironic, I forget words sometimes. :( It happens when you start getting old. Go ahead, laugh, you'll find out. :P

[Goliath]

Sorry, Shea, but I've given up on this country. I honestly believe that this country's best days have already passed. The only reason why I'm still here is because of my job. If I can someday land a tenure-track academic position in a Mathematics department in a university outside the US, then I'll be more than happy to leave this country and never look back.

[Roland98]

Sorry, Shea, but I've given up on this country. I honestly believe that this country's best days have already past. The only reason why I'm still here is because of my job. If I can someday land a tenure-track academic position in a Mathematics department in a university outside the US, then I'll be more than happy to leave this country and never look back.

I can point you to a discussion I'm having with Gurdur about a position in Germany... ;)

I dunno, maybe I am just taking the results too hard, but I truly have been crying since last night. And I never cry. I am disgusted with my state, I am disgusted with people in general. I am sick of feeling like a freak because I don't believe in their sky fairy. I am sick of having to defend good science education in the face of beliefs that should have gone the way of the dinosaur more than a century ago. I am sick of being looked down upon for being intelligent and valuing logic and critical thinking.

I have done the activism. I worked with MoveOn and spent several weekend mornings going door to door. I've written several LTEs both to my local (mostly democrat) and my hometown (overwhelmingly Republican) papers. I've donated money we really don't have to all kinds of causes. And right now I am just tired and nauseated, because it came down to "moral values" (whatever those are of Bush's, I have no clue) and willful ignorance. You can't fight those.

So I am truly thinking of leaving. It wouldn't be immediately; I have a contract through June 2007, so I'm here until at least then. But if 2006 goes the way it did this year, and 2008 is looking to be a repeat, I will certainly be paying attention to vacant professorships in Europe or elsewhere. I would like my kids to at least experience a culture where tolerance isn't just a buzzword; if it can't be here, then perhaps I'll search for it elsewhere. But in the meantime, I am certainly not giving up on the causes I've worked for; I will continue to be active and will continue to fight as long as I'm here.

[Goliath]

I can point you to a discussion I'm having with Gurdur about a position in Germany... ;)


Excellent. Please do. I can speak a very tiny amount of German, and I can understand a tiny bit more.



I dunno, maybe I am just taking the results too hard, but I truly have been crying since last night. And I never cry. I am disgusted with my state, I am disgusted with people in general. I am sick of feeling like a freak because I don't believe in their sky fairy. I am sick of having to defend good science education in the face of beliefs that should have gone the way of the dinosaur more than a century ago. I am sick of being looked down upon for being intelligent and valuing logic and critical thinking.



Issues on this board have literally drained me of all tears...I've spent last night and a lot of today trying to cry and failing. How pathetic is that?

[Godless Dave]

I'm with Roland. I've lost hope for the United States.

[livius drusus]

And right now I am just tired and nauseated, because it came down to "moral values" (whatever those are of Bush's, I have no clue) and willful ignorance. You can't fight those.

You can. The Republicans have been successfully redefining moral values for 30 years and you see how thorough a job they've done of it. We are not rhetorically weaponless on any issue, including this one.

The United States has a myriad contradictory moral traditions. The right wing has picked up a few and run with them consistently and hard, building alliances, shifting goalposts, until next thing you know, we're literally in tears over how thoroughly alienated from American political discourse progressive positions have become.

It wasn't always this way, it doesn't have to be this way and it won't be this way forever because, simply stated, things change and so will we.

[Goliath]

Yep, things change. Like my nationality will (hopefully) change (if I can land a tenure-track job outside the US).

[Roland98]

And right now I am just tired and nauseated, because it came down to "moral values" (whatever those are of Bush's, I have no clue) and willful ignorance. You can't fight those.

You can. The Republicans have been successfully redefining moral values for 30 years and you see how thorough a job they've done of it. We are not rhetorically weaponless on any issue, including this one.

The United States has a myriad contradictory moral traditions. The right wing has picked up a few and run with them consistently and hard, building alliances, shifting goalposts, until next thing you know, we're literally in tears over how thoroughly alienated from American political discourse progressive positions have become.

It wasn't always this way, it doesn't have to be this way and it won't be this way forever because, simply stated, things change and so will we.

Could be, but my kids won't be young forever, and I can't wait 30 years for them to swing back.

[dave_a]

Given how fresh Bush's victory is in our minds I can understand the depression and frustration, but I do hope the folks who have said they have given up recover from that attitude before too long.

Every soldier who puts down his weapon and walks away just makes their side that much weaker and the opposition that much stronger. If you believe in something then you need to work for it, not walk away from it.

What have you lost really? Today is the same as yesterday. It isn't like your participating in the process has cost you your job, family or life.

I understand the emotion, but I do hope it settles down and folks get back to normal, whatever that might be.

[Godless Dave]

Every soldier who puts down his weapon and walks away just makes their side that much weaker and the opposition that much stronger.
But to continue your analogy, this seems to be a situation where the people I was fighting for have embraced the enemy.

I do hope to calm down though. I'm still at work but I'm leaving early to get drunk. Or maybe go to a firing range and shoot things.

[Goliath]

Given how fresh Bush's victory is in our minds I can understand the depression and frustration, but I do hope the folks who have said they have given up recover from that attitude before too long.

Un-fucking-likely.



Every soldier who puts down his weapon and walks away just makes their side that much weaker and the opposition that much stronger.



Every good general must be able to figure out when a war is unwinnable.



What have you lost really?



As of right now: nothing.

Within the next 4 years, we stand a decent chance at losing:

Many privacy rights (due to a strengthening of the Patriot Act).
The loss of Roe v. Wade.
Freedom from religion (like I said: December 31, 2006).
Freedom from not being in the army (ie there will probably be a draft).

Not to mention the continuation of the perception that anyone expressing any amount of intelligence whatsoever is to be scorned and made to feel marginalized.

I understand the emotion, but I do hope it settles down and folks get back to normal, whatever that might be.

I don't think things will ever be "normal" again.

[Roland98]

I'm with Roland. I've lost hope for the United States.

Well, I didn't quite say that. ;) I continue to be an optimist, but I am pragmatic. And if the option comes to jump ship for awhile, I simply may take it.

[LadyShea]

Well, leaving is simply not an option for me. I do not speak a foreign language and my efforts to learn one have demonstrated that that part of my brain is non-functional. I have no degree nor any specialized, in-demand skills that would help me land a job or even get permission to emigrate elsewhere.

I am also encouraged by the fact that this one was damned close, even though we lost. Almost half the voters wanted change, just as I do. My choice is to join with them to work towards change, or simply hide for the next 4 years. If I have to be here, I am going to fight :: shrug

[godfry n. glad]

Well... Here's (http://www.marryanamerican.ca/) a slim thread of hope.

godfry

[SharonDee]

I understand the emotion, but I do hope it settles down and folks get back to normal, whatever that might be.
I hope that for myself, as well. But it's only the first day after my hopes & dreams were dashed; I reserve the right to be pissed, hurt, disappointed, suicidal, and downright fuckin' cranky until this day is over.

Tomorrow, though, will hopefully find me grimly determined to stay the course. (And able to say what "the course" now is.)

After all, tomorrow is another day.
(Where's that Scarlett O'Hara smiley?)

[Goliath]

Well... Here's (http://www.marryanamerican.ca/) a slim thread of hope.

godfry

If only I was even slightly attractive...

:deepsigh:

[Farren]

Here's what I think. It's like the division in economics between fundamentailists and chartists (obviously fundamentalists means something different in this context). People who talk about market fundamentals like consumer dissaffection, productivity and so on are usually more convincing than people who argue about economics purely in terms of trends on graphs. People who consider both are the most convincing.

The former group is analysing causes, the latter effects.

Similarly, its less effective to worry about getting Democrats elected in the US if you're a US citizen and more effective to spread memes that are amicable to Democrats (and even better Greens). That is, after all, the point of getting Dems (and even better, Greens) elected?

Its all about values. You're trying to get the nation you live in to encode the values you hold dear in its laws and behaviour. Playing to the center is a symptom of the malaise that appears to have afflicted US liberalism. Trying to get voters is not the purpose. Trying to achieve an American consensus on values you hold dear is. Electing Dems (and even better, Greens) is a symptom of that.

Aiming for the symptom leads to pro-war candidates who speak in code about abortion, gay rights and religion being elected. Trying to change the values of the society you live in is far more likely to achieve forthright candidates who say "screw you, you intolerant assholes, we're looking to the future and we're the majority" with confidence.

There are times when the good fight has been fought and all you can do is mute the symptoms, lest it kill the patient, so I'm not advocating a purely idealistic stance. But the best way is the one with the best results. In the care of sick patients, attacking the cause is always first base and attacking the symptoms is always a last resort.

So don't fall into the pragmatic trap except when all else has failed. Spend your energy in the next four years convincing people that abortion isn't murder, the state has no place in the bedroom and "righteous" war ultimately causes more damage than it prevents, rather than engaging in Machiavellian manipulations to sway the ignorent. Inform people and help them to think clearly, don't try to manipulate them by subterfuge.

[Scotty]

I say, since the race was so close, we beem both candidates down to Triskelion and have them battle it out hand-to-hand!

20 quatloos on Kerry he has the longer reach!

-Scott

[Corwin]

Well... Here's (http://www.marryanamerican.ca/) a slim thread of hope.

godfry

Ok.... potentially dumb american question here....

But what the hell are Timbits?

[trendkill]

I'm not a Democrat, I never was one. Who stands with you if you don't support US imperialism? Hardly anyone. The Democrats are a corporate party as well, and share the Republicans' misguided goals of nation-building. Who stands with you if you support tolerance? The Democrats refuse to come out in favor of gay marriage. There really is no chance for liberalism to get anywhere in America. I can get worked up about getting rid of Bush, but I just can't bring myself to fight for the Republicans Lite. They are not a real alternative. There is no real alternative.


Every soldier who puts down his weapon and walks away just makes their side that much weaker and the opposition that much stronger.
But to continue your analogy, this seems to be a situation where the people I was fighting for have embraced the enemy.

Exactly.

[Godless Dave]

I am also encouraged by the fact that this one was damned close, even though we lost. Almost half the voters wanted change, just as I do.
See, that isn't encouraging to me because of the blatant dishonesty, corruption, and incompetence of the Bush administration. Even if Kerry had won I would have been discouraged that he got anything less than 70%.

I mean, lying us into a war while we are already fighting another one. That's not a difference of policy or philosophy. It's just damned wrong, and borderline treasonous.

[godfry n. glad]

Well... Here's (http://www.marryanamerican.ca/) a slim thread of hope.

godfry

Ok.... potentially dumb american question here....

But what the hell are Timbits?

Okay... potentially dumb american guess here....

I think they're the deepfried donut centerholes they sell at Tim Horton's. And, Tim Horton's is the Great White North's answer to Dunkin' Donuts.

Hey, just hope they don't require that you consume poutine.

godfry

[BigBlue2]

I am also encouraged by the fact that this one was damned close, even though we lost. Almost half the voters wanted change, just as I do. My choice is to join with them to work towards change, or simply hide for the next 4 years. If I have to be here, I am going to fight :: shrug
I'll be blunt, please don't take it personally. The 2000 election was close, this one wasn't. Get that into your head. Bush turned a 500,000 popular vote deficit from 2000 into a 4,000,000+ popular vote surplus in 2004. If he takes Iowa and New Mexico, as seems likely, he will win the EC by 286-252 as opposed to 271-267 in 2000. The Republicans have an increased majority in the Senate and in the House.

I admire your spirit and your willingness to fight for your beliefs, and I do not wish to discourage you, but get over the idea that this was a close election. It wasn't, and you and those who think like you have an enormous task in front of you. I wish you well, I really do.

[Dingfod]

Excuse the following rant, I've got to get it off my chest before I esplode.

My reaction last night when I realized how the election was headed was to get really kneel-and-pray-to-the-porcelain-goddess drunk. Boy do I regret that. In fact, I've since sworn off alcohol altogether. Then I swore off politics, deciding that I need a different hobby. Then I thought of leaving the country, but decided that mostly likely nobody would want an uneducated balding middle-aged fat man with no discernible skills or talents. So, where does that leave me? Staying here and pointing out as much of their stupidity as I can.

Stupidity like one of my Republican't coworkers that said the other day that we need to get rid of medicare and social security because people need to take care of themselves, to which I replied "Yeah, fuck poor old sick people. Good gawd, that was just plain stupid... and mean." He stammered a bit, saying that he didn't mean it like it sounded. WTF, over?

Shit, sometimes these seemingly semi-literate relatively functional apes are about as fucking dumb as a box of hammers, they haven't formed a thought of their own since that one time when their two brain cells accidentally rubbed together back during the Reagan administration.

Fuck, someone's got to call them on shit like that, might as well be me. They're just plain mean hearted and it needs to be pointed out. Stupid fuckers should watch Dicken's Christmas Carol about 15 times a month or something. Mean stingy sheepfuckers, that's what guys like him are. One thing about it, I'm big enough and strong enough, and fast enough, that not many are going to pick a fight with me. I've never punched anyone in the face in my life, but there might be a first time this coming Friday, my first day back to work after this dismal election.

I wonder if I can access the internet from jail?

[Dingfod]

One other thing, I've decided that if they institute a military draft that includes women, we're leaving, even if we have to be refugees living in a tent. I do not want my daughters being Bush cannon fodder. If that becomes the case, fuck America, we're outta here.

[LadyShea]

I'll be blunt, please don't take it personally. The 2000 election was close, this one wasn't. Get that into your head. Bush turned a 500,000 popular vote deficit from 2000 into a 4,000,000+ popular vote surplus in 2004. If he takes Iowa and New Mexico, as seems likely, he will win the EC by 286-252 as opposed to 271-267 in 2000. The Republicans have an increased majority in the Senate and in the House.

In some states, the margin was in the thousands. More Americans voted AGAINST Bush than have ever voted against a sitting President. I find that encouraging. And anyway, that's still how many millions who voted for change? Just because it wasn't enough, I am not ready to dismiss them as if they don't exist.

I admire your spirit and your willingness to fight for your beliefs, and I do not wish to discourage you, but get over the idea that this was a close election. It wasn't, and you and those who think like you have an enormous task in front of you. I wish you well, I really do.

It was close. What's 4 million (only 3%) in a country with 290 million people the large majority of whom didn't or couldn't vote? There are a bunch of teens I plan on talking to to get ready for 2008, there are children I plan to discuss critical thinking with and teach them to be informed for the future, there are apathetic neighbors and coworkers I plan to to try to motivate.

Think like me in what way? Think people, working together or separately, can make a difference and that even if the odds are against us should at least try? Yep, if that's what you mean then I have always had an enormous task in front in me because that's how I live my whole life. What's the alternative? Sit on my ass and cry and hope someone else will fix it?

[BigBlue2]

It was close. What's 4 million in a country with 290 million people the large majority of whom didn't or couldn't vote?
I was comparing this election to the previous one, but I'm not going to argue with you about it, since I doubt I will change your mind.
There are a bunch of teens I plan on talking to to get ready for 2008, there are children I plan to discuss critical thinking with and teach them to be informed for the future, there are apathetic neighbors and coworkers I plan to to try to motivate.
That's a good start and you are intelligent enough and passionate enough to succeed, no doubt about it.
Think like me in what way? Think people, working together or separately, can make a difference and that even if the odds are against us should at least try? Yep, if that's what you mean then I have always had an enormous task in front in me because that's how I live my whole life.
By "people who think like you" I was referring to people who share your political and social beliefs and attitudes. Relax, mate. I'm on your side, and for what it's worth, you've got my moral support, which is all I can give you at this time.
What's the alternative? Sit on my ass and cry and hope someone else will fix it?
That is so not your style.

[LadyShea]

I was comparing this election to the previous one, but I'm not going to argue with you about it, since I doubt I will change your mind.

Understoood. I really think that's why Kerry conceded withut a fight, so it is disappointing

That's a good start and you are intelligent enough and passionate enough to succeed, no doubt about it.

Thanks! Once I get settled in my new area (fundyland), maybe I'll run for a local office. Can't win, but might be a good way to meet likeminded people to work with

By "people who think like you" I was referring to people who share your political and social beliefs and attitudes. Relax, mate. I'm on your side, and for what it's worth, you've got my moral support, which is all I can give you at this time.

Thanks again. Sorry to snap, I am both hormonal AND disgusted today


That is so not your style.

I'll take that as a compliment and thank you a third time :)

[godfry n. glad]

One other thing, I've decided that if they institute a military draft that includes women, we're leaving, even if we have to be refugees living in a tent. I do not want my daughters being Bush cannon fodder. If that becomes the case, fuck America, we're outta here.

Hey, Warn...

See Kelowna, or Penticton, British Columbia. High dry country on a big lake...lotsa fruit trees. Heavy duty forest game and fishing, right out practically in your back yard. Mountains glalore. Cold winters. Skiing of all types.

Ride the eastern side of the Cascades to the south. High desert with occasional wide riverbottom orchard lands. Scablands. High lakes. Skinny pines and lava tuff. Coulee country. Horse Heaven. And, it's only a day's ride to the Canadian Rockies, which has got to be a superlative summer ride.

Nice country, nice people.

It's called the Okanagan River valley, complete with Lake Okanagan. It's Canada. They got natural gas, there, too, man. Their seniors need to have it controlled, too.

Check it out sometime.

godfry

[The Lone Ranger]

In a way, I was kind of dreading a Kerry victory. So, I'm trying to keep some shreds of optimism about me.

Since there was no real hope that the Democrats would have re-taken either house of Congress, had he won, Kerry would have been in the unenviable position of having both houses of Congress in Republican hands. And you can bet that they’d have done everything in their considerable power to thwart his every policy. After four years of this, the Republicans would have run against him on the claim that he was in “ineffective President” because he never got anything accomplished. Sadly, it’s likely that the tactic would have worked very well.


During the past four years, Bush’s policies have been so aggressively radical (Bush does not in the slightest resemble a traditional Conservative) that even a number of prominent Republicans opposed him during this election. I’m hoping that the next four years will demonstrate beyond doubt that Bush’s agenda is radically out of step with the best interests of the great majority of the American people, and that there will be a tremendous backlash against him and his policies in 2006 and 2008. I can hope, can’t I?

Heck, maybe the Democrats will actually be inspired to put together a real opposition party, instead of behaving like lapdogs. After all, approximately 50% of American voters voted against Bush this time. A lot of people – including an awful lot of traditional Republicans – are simply disgusted with Bush and his policies. Hopefully, this sense of disgust and betrayal will only increase over the next four years. If only the Democrats could organize themselves and capitalize on this dissatisfaction, they could achieve great victories in the 2006 and 2008 elections. I sure hope that’s the case!


Well, we can only hope that things will turn out for the best in the long run. While I think that Bush is simply an awful excuse for a President, I’m sure that we’ll manage to survive. And maybe a second Bush term is what the Democrats need to finally get their act together. I sure hope so!

As Michael Moore likes to remind us, when they're asked to rate what things are important to them, Americans overwhelmingly indicate that their values are more in line with "Progressives" than Bush's brand of "Conservatives." Now, if only the Democrats can show the fortitude to remind people of that!


[Note: I'm not a Democrat, really, because I agree wholeheartedly that they're basically "Republicans Lite." But, alas, the Greens and other "alternative" parties have even less hope than the Democrats of unseating Bush's thugs. Maybe the next four years will energize them, too.]

Cheers,

Michael

[Godless Dave]

I need a few million dollars, so everytime a US serviceman or woman is killed in Iraq I can take out full page ads in newspapers in red states with the dead person's picture and the text "You voted to kill this American".

[trendkill]

The Democrats have no chance of unseating anyone. They're all over the road, in more ways than one. This (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/04/politics/main653667.shtml) is exactly the kind of thing I expect to hear from the Democratic Party--more half-assed attempts at doing Republican impressions, standing for nothing, aspiring to be a moral, ideological, and political nonentity, knowing nothing except that they kinda wish people would vote for them. And even if I could bring myself to work for such a party, there would be no point with the electoral college in place. I live in a solidly Democratic state, and I don't have the means to move.

[Farren]

You're right, Trendkill. As I said in my earlier post (which I'm disappointed no one saw fit to comment on), its all about fundamentals. The primary opposition to the Republicans in the States shouldn't be trying to out-Republican them.

They should be attacking their values. They should be saying "Those values are wrong", "Are you some kind of religious wingnut? Right wing bigot? Racist asshole?", "Have you no respect for International law?", "Do you believe American human rights are more important than other people's human rights?", "Idiot!"

The right in the US has effectively framed the language of political discourse in their favour. Only by making the language of the right a lexicon of filthy words can the liberal-minded half of America start winning the ideological war. Pandering doesn't do that.

[LadyShea]

You're right, Trendkill. As I said in my earlier post (which I'm disappointed no one saw fit to comment on), its all about fundamentals. The primary opposition to the Republicans in the States shouldn't be trying to out-Republican them.

They should be attacking their values. They should be saying "Those values are wrong", "Are you some kind of religious wingnut? Right wing bigot? Racist asshole?", "Have you no respect for International law?", "Do you believe American human rights are more important than other people's human rights?", "Idiot!"

The right in the US has effectively framed the language of political discourse in their favour. Only by making the language of the right a lexicon of filthy words can the liberal-minded half of America start winning the ideological war. Pandering doesn't do that.


I didn't mean to ignore you or trendkill, but the problem I see with both your positions is it puts you on the fringe in most peoples' minds. You become the Communist/Atheist/Tree Hugging Wingnut to balance the Religious Wingnut on the other side (in their perception only, not mine). And, the answer by as surprising majority of people to your questions is a loud "Yes, I am a religious freak who thinks Americans are more valuable than anyone else, and I dislike brown people, and fuck them furreners and their International laws"

I just feel the only effective way to move people is slowly, and to do that you have to start from the center.

Just my opinion, my gut reaction is to drag them kicking and screaming into the sunlight, but that just won't work.

[Farren]

I didn't mean to ignore you or trendkill, but the problem I see with both your positions is it puts you on the fringe in most peoples' minds. You become the Communist/Atheist/Tree Hugging Wingnut to balance the Religious Wingnut on the other side (in their perception only, not mine).

I just feel the only effective way to move people is slowly, and to do that you have to start from the center.

Just my opinion, my gut reaction is to drag them kicking and screaming into the sunlight, but that just won't work.

The curious thing, Brandi, is that in my social intercourse I adhere quite closely to the exact principle you're espousing. The tree that bends a little in the storm survives. The inflexible one breaks. The person that shouts hostiility at another fosters only hatred. But if someone who has allowed you the intimacy to love them disagrees on a small point, you'll consider them and probably change your view - in fact its even more likely if their view is reasonable.

But if you meet unreasoning hatred and bigotry with coded language and acquiescence, you actually fortify someone's view. Its possible to love and resist.

I swapped a PM with Liv recently where I divulged the fact that I have some racist white friends. Its an inevitable consequence of being white and having grown up isolated from black people. You get thick skinned about bigotry and even fairly understanding about it because you've seen the powerful forces that shaped them first hand.

I've let their stupid comments pass when no-one was immediately harmed and good fun was being had by all, picking my battles carefully. When they were spreading a harmful meme to those on the fence, however, or engaging in subliminally racist behaviour, I called them on it, again and again. I've deliberately placed them in situations where they had to confront there own bigotry, like seating them next to black friends at birthday dinners, wth the attendant pressure of having to behave out of type because they don't want to screw up my birthday.

The point is, I've arrived at the conclusion that time, place and context are critical to fostering change. Simply drawing a line and shouting "Fuck you!" at anyone on the other side of it is obviously counter-productive. But implicity conceding every point, concedng defeat in every conflict and so on is equally counter-productive.

In public forums, for instance, the message is different from private communications. The Republicans in the US have realised this. This is what allows them to attack gay rights while the vice-pres continues to enjoy the support of his lesbian daughter. He's successfully maintained a kind of positive relationship with his daughter while ultimately sowing the seeds of hatred for what she represents.

Similarly my few racist friends are clear where I stand on racism et al in the public sphere, but continue to seek out my friendship because while I'm saying to them "I feel that a terrible evil is using you as it's vessel, but I find you funny, entertaining, charming, whatever and I'm sure you'll see the light I see eventually". In politics we vote on opposite sides of a great divide and when discussing it I tell them they're pig-ignorant frequently, but we manage to share love and respect and I feel the door is open enough for me to sneak in some memes that extend that respect.

That's not, in my observation, what the Dems have been doing in the states. They've been reduced to being non-committal on the values they're trying to further and pretend they're committed to the values the other side is trying to further.

"Muscular Internationalism"? WTF? That's "We'll protect US interest at the expense of other people's interests - but we'll do it politely" instead of "If you belive in these principles - if you believe all people should have equal say in their destiny - you''l realise that multilateralism isn't selling ourselves short - its fostering the liberty and equality we hold dear".

And "being tough on terrorists" without any kind of acknowledgement of the USA's role in fostering terrorism itself and creating disaffected masses in other countries by supporting tyrants is a complete. Fucking. Copout.

I think it was Aldous Huxley who said "If the truth can be told so as to be understood, it will be believed". Lies won't get you there. Coded language and ommissions maybe. Sometimes they're even the better route. But the left in the US has become so coded they've being reduced to outright lies. That has to change.

The route to changing that is this: I love you. But you're utterly wrong, and this is why...

[trendkill]

So don't fall into the pragmatic trap except when all else has failed. Spend your energy in the next four years convincing people that abortion isn't murder, the state has no place in the bedroom and "righteous" war ultimately causes more damage than it prevents, rather than engaging in Machiavellian manipulations to sway the ignorent. Inform people and help them to think clearly, don't try to manipulate them by subterfuge.That's very true. You have to make people see that the best way to achieve their values is through liberal morality, that is the most important thing. You have to appeal to their core humanity, their empathy for other people. Which is the true basis of morality.