Well, I'm back from my first counseling session...

[Goliath]

..and it went a lot smoother than I was dreading. Actually, it had a very calming effect...even going back and looking at vm's latest hate-filled attacks against me in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread isn't really angering me right now.

:cloud9:

[Scotty]

Okay, my first thought was "They upped the dose?" ;)

It sounds like you got something good out of the experience. What else could you ask for? (okay, don't answer that).

-Scott

[viscousmemories]

..and it went a lot smoother than I was dreading. Actually, it had a very calming effect...even going back and looking at vm's latest hate-filled attacks against me in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread isn't really angering me right now.

:cloud9:
Pathetic.

[maddog]

..and it went a lot smoother than I was dreading. Actually, it had a very calming effect... Atta boy, Goliath! I hope you get a good rapport going. . . . even going back and looking at vm's latest hate-filled attacks against me in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread isn't really angering me right now. teh funnay!! :D :cool:
:cloud9:that's great! just remember, it (like every feeling, good or bad) doesn't last. That's both the good news and the bad news. Feelings fade over time, unless restimulated. But just as bad feelings don't last forever, good ones that have fled away will come back around again. Hang in!

p.s., I'm not sure if it's ENcouraging or DIScouraging to tell you that I've been going to my therapist for years :D -- I probably really could have stopped a long time ago though, but I really like it and it's still useful. So I still go. but I'm not everyone.
#48

[Goliath]

Pathetic.

Pathetic and predictable.

This is a thread about my therapy, vm. Can't you leave your vitriol out of at least one thread that I've created?

[Goliath]

Okay, my first thought was "They upped the dose?" ;)

LOL.



It sounds like you got something good out of the experience. What else could you ask for? (okay, don't answer that).



Yes I did. As for what I could have gotten...yeah, let's not think about that... :yikes: :D



that's great! just remember, it (like every feeling, good or bad) doesn't last. That's both the good news and the bad news.



Yeah, that's true.



I'm not sure if it's ENcouraging or DIScouraging to tell you that I've been going to my therapist for years -- I probably really could have stopped a long time ago though, but I really like it and it's still useful. So I still go. but I'm not everyone.



I'm not so sure that that's discouraging. If things work out, I could see myself in counseling for awhile (especially since it's pretty cheap)...I dunno. I'll have to see.

[livius drusus]

Congratulations. I'm glad it went smoothly. Perhaps at some point in your therapy you'll cover the appropriateness of including a personal attack on someone in the OP of a support thread. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

[Goliath]

Congratulations. I'm glad it went smoothly.


Thank you.



Perhaps at some point in your therapy you'll cover the appropriateness of including a personal attack on someone in the OP of a support thread.



But it's vm that you're talking about. He's attacked me repeatedly--even after agreeing to try and avoid hostilities. Why should I believe a single word that he utters? And why should I care about whether or not I'm attacking him? All that he'll do is attack me, regardless of what I do.

[Roland98]

Glad to hear the counseling went well.

[Goliath]

Thanks, Roland.

[pescifish]

Goliath, I'm glad you posted! As you know from our chatroom conversation last night, I am interested and care that things work out.

Relative to this part of your OP and the subsequent responses:even going back and looking at vm's latest hate-filled attacks against me in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread isn't really angering me right now.
Pathetic.

Pathetic and predictable.

This is a thread about my therapy, vm. Can't you leave your vitriol out of at least one thread that I've created?You are right, Goliath, this is a thread about your therapy.

I would have hoped you would have made an effort to leave your own vitriol out of it. Surely viscousmemories should be allowed to react. This is a thread about your therapy and one hopefully in support of you. I hope you don't take advantage and/or assume people aren't allowed to respond when you take shots at them, even if it is a support thread.

And please don't ruin your good results from the session by purposefully exacerbating the very things that you know bother you.
:grouphug:

[edited to add: crossposted with several posts -- livius said what I wanted to say much better than I did]

I like you Goliath, I care about how you are feeling and hope the best for you.

[Goliath]

You are right, Goliath, this is a thread about your therapy.


Thank you.



I would have hoped you would have made an effort to leave your own vitriol out of it.



At the moment, I have no real disdain for vm. I've come to accept that no matter what I do, he will spew out his venomous hatred at me. I can accept that.

I am, however, confused. First, you people wanted me to seek counseling. And when I go to seek it, you're disappointed.

What the fuck...?

[Godless Dave]

I am, however, confused. First, you people wanted me to seek counseling. And when I go to seek it, you're disappointed.

What the fuck...?
No has expressed disappointment in you seeking counseling.

The disappointment comes from you using the OP to accuse vm of making personal attacks on you, and then getting mad at him for responding in the same thread.

[Goliath]

The disappointment comes from you using the OP to accuse vm of making personal attacks on you,


Oh, there is no accusation necessary. I've come to realize that vm will attack me regardless of what I do. If I launch attacks against him, he will attack me. If I have nothing to do with him, he still attacks me.

But it's okay. I'm starting to learn to live with his hatred and poison that he injects into threads on a regular basis.

[HelenM]

..and it went a lot smoother than I was dreading. Actually, it had a very calming effect...even going back and looking at vm's latest hate-filled attacks against me in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread isn't really angering me right now.

:cloud9:

I'm glad it went well, Goliath.

Helen

[Goliath]

Thanks, Helen.

[pescifish]

I am, however, confused. First, you people wanted me to seek counseling. And when I go to seek it, you're disappointed.

What the fuck...?I'm not disappointed and there is nothing in my post that indicates anything but encouragement regarding the therapy.

I would have hoped you would have made an effort to leave your own vitriol out of it.At the moment, I have no real disdain for vm. I've come to accept that no matter what I do, he will spew out his venomous hatred at me. I can accept that. Just a thought, Goliath. If you have no real disdain, please think about why and what drove you to post an attack on him in your OP. Maybe it had nothing to do with vm? The end result is that you posted an OP that is difficult for some of us to support wholeheartedly. Those of us who, with genuine hope and joy over the results of the therapy, aren't willing to swallow that part are now forced to either 1) shut up about that part, or 2) challenge you on that part.

When we do the second thing, you now have fodder again for those thoughts that everyone hates you. Which we clearly do not. I feel that your insistence on continuing with the issue is manipulative.

You reward those people who have ignored your attacks on vm with your thanks and question the sincerity of the support of those who bring it up. I feel that's manipulative of you to do this, whether it is conscious or not. Still, I am willing to reverse strategy and join the ranks who are ignoring it:

Take this next thing to the bank, Goliath, this is the reality of my feelings at this time:

Take care of yourself, Goliath. I'm glad the session went well. Feel well!

[seebs]

Yay counseling!

Sounds like a not-bad thing.

[Godless Dave]

The disappointment comes from you using the OP to accuse vm of making personal attacks on you,

Oh, there is no accusation necessary.
So why did you? Especially in the opening post of this thread?

[Goliath]

I'm not disappointed and there is nothing in my post that indicates anything but encouragement regarding the therapy.


I'm sorry for misreading, then.



Just a thought, Goliath. If you have no real disdain, please think about why and what drove you to post an attack on him in your OP.



Actually, my OP wasn't meant as an attack...I merely brought up something that was making me angry before the counseling session, but that I'm not angry about now.

You see, I've come to a realization over lunch. I'm now convinced that vm will attack me no matter what I do. If I spend every day of the rest of my life at this board attacking him, he'll attack me. If I try to avoid contact with him, he'll attack me (as he did in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread). And if I try to do anything else, he'll eventually attack me.

I cannot control the vomitous eruption of vm's hatred and disdain for me. But what I can control is how I feel about it and my reaction to it.

And that gives me a feeling of empowerment.

[Goliath]

So why did you? Especially in the opening post of this thread?

No, that's not what I said. I said that no accusation was necessary. This is because vm has attacked me recently in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread. Even though I tried to avoid hostilities with him, and even though he agreed to do the same.

But it's okay. I think I can deal with that now.

[Goliath]

Yay counseling!

Sounds like a not-bad thing.

Nope, definitely not a bad thing. :)

[pescifish]

Hmmm, ok, I can see where you were going with that, then. Maybe if you had just left things in general terms, it would have been easier for me to understand the real thrust of your meaning. For example, you put it really well here: Actually, my OP wasn't meant as an attack...I merely brought up something that was making me angry before the counseling session, but that I'm not angry about now. Really, the details of what that angry-making thing was might have been better left out. Naming names so easily distracted me (and maybe others) from understanding your real message.

Thanks for clarifying; I honestly do think I understand now! Personally, I would really appreciate it if you could refrain from being specific as to who and what you are angry at (i.e., naming names), but that's just a request from this lowly supporter.

And that gives me a feeling of empowerment.Damn straight. I think one of the few things in this world we can control are our own reactions to things that happen around us.

[wei yau]

Congratulations on this first and very big step. Good luck on all the steps to come. It's a journey that is every bit as valuable as the destination.

[Goliath]

Hmmm, ok, I can see where you were going with that, then. Maybe if you had just left things in general terms, it would have been easier for me to understand the real thrust of your meaning.


Yes, I guess it probably would have. My apologies.



Thanks for clarifying; I honestly do think I understand now! Personally, I would really appreciate it if you could refrain from being specific as to who and what you are angry at (i.e., naming names), but that's just a request from this lowly supporter.



Oh, bah! You're not lowly!

And I'll definitely keep that in mind. I guess to me, it didn't matter if I named vm by name or not, since he'll attack me eventually regardless. However, it caused confusion to the rest of you reading this thread, and for that, I apologize.



Damn straight. I think one of the few things in this world we can control are our own reactions to things that happen around us.

You know, my mom always used to say that, and I thought it was a bunch of overly-optomistic bullshit, until now.

[Goliath]

Congratulations on this first and very big step. Good luck on all the steps to come. It's a journey that is every bit as valuable as the destination.

Thanks, Eldar.

[Dingfod]

Damn straight. I think one of the few things in this world we can control are our own reactions to things that happen around us.You know, my mom always used to say that, and I thought it was a bunch of overly-optomistic bullshit, until now.That is what I was saying to you not too long ago. I'm glad to see you've sought counselling, apparently one visit has already helped. One visit didn't do that much for me, but after three I decided, probably wrongly, that I was actually coping with my problems quite well. Stick with it, Goliath, I'm on your side.

[Ex-zombie]

Goliath,

I'm glad to hear the counseling session went well. I wish you the very best and I hope things work out to your satisfaction. :cool:

[Goliath]

That is what I was saying to you not too long ago. I'm glad to see you've sought counselling, apparently one visit has already helped. One visit didn't do that much for me, but after three I decided, probably wrongly, that I was actually coping with my problems quite well. Stick with it, Goliath, I'm on your side.

Thanks, Warren. Actually, I'm not sure that the visit per se led me to the realization that I had...merely that the session calmed me down and allowed me to focus enough to come to such a conclusion.


I'm glad to hear the counseling session went well. I wish you the very best and I hope things work out to your satisfaction.


Thanks, Ex-Zombie.

[HelenM]

You see, I've come to a realization over lunch [...] what I can control is how I feel about and my reaction to it.

And [b]that gives me a feeling of empowerment.

Absolutely.

I'm just curious - did the counseling have anything to do with that realization or was it entirely separate?

Helen

[viscousmemories]

Goliath, I apologize for my earlier comment. I believe you intended this thread to be a positive discussion of your therapy and I'm glad that you are doing what you feel you have to do to take care of yourself. Congratulations. :yup:

However, I wish you would stop saying that I hate you and that no matter what you say or do I will attack you. I have never said I hate you (which of course is the only way you could possibly know that I do) and your claim that I will attack you no matter what you say to me is demonstrably false, with this post being just one example of that fact. But I'm afraid that if you keep repeating the opposite (as you have in many posts in this thread) people might start believing it's true when it is not. And even though I am suggesting that what you have been saying is untrue, I am not accusing you of deliberately lying. I just think you are mistaken.

I am not saying I have always been a perfect gentleman. Everyone knows I can be a dick when I'm angry and that I sometimes make regrettable comments. Obviously I'm not alone in that regard. But contrary to what you believe I have made a very concerted effort to be understanding and empathetic with you. When I have failed it has not been for a lack of trying. But that's just me, I have my own character defects to work on. As for you - as I have said before - I just think you should consider the possibility that your perception that I am attacking you is inaccurate.

Tom

[Goliath]

I'm just curious - did the counseling have anything to do with that realization or was it entirely separate?


I think it was separate. I think that the session calmed me down enough so that I could have the necessary focus to come to the epiphany that I came to.

[wildernesse]

Glad to hear that your session went well, and I hope it helps in the long-term too!

:cool:

Random use of smilie.

[Goliath]

Goliath, I apologize for my earlier comment.


Apology accepted.



However, I wish you would stop saying that I hate you and that no matter what you say or do I will attack you.



On second thought, I do apologize for saying that you hate me. I should've kept the comments to a "disdain" level.

On the other hand, I do not believe that you will not attack me eventually. It is almost surely inevitable.



I have made a very concerted effort to be understanding and empathetic with you.



I do not believe that.

[Goliath]

Glad to hear that your session went well, and I hope it helps in the long-term too!

:cool:

Random use of smilie.

Thanks, wildy. :)

[HelenM]

I'm just curious - did the counseling have anything to do with that realization or was it entirely separate?


I think it was separate. I think that the session calmed me down enough so that I could have the necessary focus to come to the epiphany that I came to.

Goliath, thanks for answering.

Helen

[Goliath]

No problem, Helen.

[LadyShea]

Best of luck with your therapy Goliath, I am glad your first session went well.

[Goliath]

Thanks, Shea. And thank you again for your support in my "Okay, I'll just up and ask..." thread.

[Corona688]

If you should see this, I'm also glad it went well.

[AspenMama]

Going to counseling is a courageous and wise thing to do. Best wishes.

[Goliath]

Thanks, AspenMama.

And thanks, Corona.

[Petra]

As Aspen Mama said, counselling is a wise and courageous thing to do, Goliath, and I'm so very happy that you have taken that first step. It's a very personal journey and not always an easy one. Sometimes you discover things about yourself you wish you could deny, and other times you find wonderful things about yourself that you have long forgotten. Keep going until you have found the balance between the two and can reconcile them in peace, dignity and love. :)

Best wishes, honeybee.

[JoeP]

..and it went a lot smoother than I was dreading. Actually, it had a very calming effect...even going back and looking at vm's latest hate-filled attacks against me in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread isn't really angering me right now.

:cloud9:
Feels good, doesn't it?

Congratulations again on going (overcoming the dread - that's natural) and glad it had some quick effect.

Watch out for feeling it's become useless in a few sessions' time. When they say therapy is a long term thing, they're not just trying to get more money out of you.

joe

[JoeP]

...

You see, I've come to a realization over lunch. I'm now convinced that vm will attack me no matter what I do. If I spend every day of the rest of my life at this board attacking him, he'll attack me. If I try to avoid contact with him, he'll attack me (as he did in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread). And if I try to do anything else, he'll eventually attack me.

I cannot control the vomitous eruption of vm's hatred and disdain for me. But what I can control is how I feel about it and my reaction to it.

And that gives me a feeling of empowerment.
:tongueincheek: :tongueincheek: :tongueincheek:
(1) Often lunch is cheaper than therapy.

(2) Excuse me for adopting my (fake) Zen master persona :meditate: ...

When you're really empowered (and enlightened) you will not only control how you react emotionally to vm's words, you will also not see them as expressions of hatred or disdain, just as a way he talks. It's good not to be affected by hurtful words, but it's better not to see things as intended to be attacks in the first place.
:tongueincheek: :tongueincheek: :tongueincheek:

[ApostateAbe]

You have taken a step in the right direction, Goliath, and that is a very blessed thing. But I will be frank with you and tell you that there is still more to be done to improve the way you interact. I am saying this only to help you.

You opened this thread by mentioning that you are not bothered by "vm's latest hate-filled attacks" against you. I know nothing about what happened between you and viscousmemories in the "Us vs. Them" thread, but still I know that saying such a thing about viscousmemories was a mistake on your part. Viscousmemories felt attacked and immediately put up his defenses, and it nearly started another flamewar.

Viscousmemories may have had hate-filled attacks or viscousmemories may not have had hate-filled attacks, but, regardless, it is destructive to mention such a thing in the opening of a new thread that is meant to discuss the positive effects of your therapy. You could have said essentially the same thing as you did except that it does not insult anyone, such as, "even going back and looking at the attacks directed against me (perhaps well-deserved) in the "'Us' vs. 'Them'" thread isn't really angering me right now."

It is possible that you didn't mean to attack viscousmemories but you seemed to have done so anyway because you don't know when you are insulting someone. If so, then now is the time to learn.

You said, "I cannot control the vomitous eruption of vm's hatred and disdain for me. But what I can control is how I feel about it and my reaction to it." But you are only half-right (which is a step-up from before). Not only can you control your own feelings and reactions, but you also have a measure of control in what vm says about you. You will notice that vm says almost nothing that is spiteful or derogatory against me. And yet we normally talk to each other only about topics with the most contentious disagreements between us. We have no flaewars because it takes two to fight one, and I am not willing to fight. The difference I perceive between you and me is that I am not so defensive. I am not trying to defend my pride. When viscousmemories says something insulting about me, I sometimes even admit to its truth. VM once accused me of letting my pessimism color my interpretations of things when I make broad generalizations. And I said that it is an inextricable part of who I am. It doesn't matter how vitriolic viscoumemories gets toward me. If I handle it right, it eventually turns into sunshine and roses.

I really hope this helps and you won't see it as a Goliath-bashing rave.

[Goliath]

(1) Often lunch is cheaper than therapy.

True...however, it wasn't the lunch itself that gave me this realization..."lunch" was merely a description of the time period in which the realization hit me.



When you're really empowered (and enlightened) you will not only control how you react emotionally to vm's words, you will also not see them as expressions of hatred or disdain, just as a way he talks.



Ah, but vm's vitriolic expressions of disdain for me are just that...I have no control over them. They will resurface eventually whether I wish such a thing to happen or not.

[Goliath]

You opened this thread by mentioning that you are not bothered by "vm's latest hate-filled attacks" against you.


Correct.



I know nothing about what happened between you and viscousmemories in the "Us vs. Them" thread, but still I know that saying such a thing about viscousmemories was a mistake on your part.



Perhaps you missed the part where I apologized for the confusion over that? (Note that I am not apologizing to vm for calling his nasty attacks as I see them).



Viscousmemories felt attacked and immediately put up his defenses, and it nearly started another flamewar.



And why should I care about how vm feels about any topic whatsoever?

Another flamewar is inevitable. It will happen. He will attack me, and I will defend myself. It is only a matter of time.



Viscousmemories may have had hate-filled attacks or viscousmemories may not have had hate-filled attacks, but, regardless, it is destructive to mention such a thing in the opening of a new thread that is meant to discuss the positive effects of your therapy.



Confusing to most of the readers of this thread? Certainly (and again, I apologized for it). Destructive? I'm not convinced of that.



It is possible that you didn't mean to attack viscousmemories but you seemed to have done so anyway because you don't know when you are insulting someone.



I did not intend to attack him in my OP of this thread, no. However, I don't care as to whether he felt attacked or not...why should I? He'll attack me eventually, regardless of what I do.



Not only can you control your own feelings and reactions, but you also have a measure of control in what vm says about you.



If you were talking about anyone else on this board besides vm, we would probably be in agreement. However, I do not believe that I have any control over what vm says about me. The attacks will come eventually. Period.



You will notice that vm says almost nothing that is spiteful or derogatory against me....<yada yada yada>



Yes, but you're not me.

[Goliath]

As Aspen Mama said, counselling is a wise and courageous thing to do, Goliath, and I'm so very happy that you have taken that first step. It's a very personal journey and not always an easy one. Sometimes you discover things about yourself you wish you could deny, and other times you find wonderful things about yourself that you have long forgotten. Keep going until you have found the balance between the two and can reconcile them in peace, dignity and love. :)

Best wishes, honeybee.

Thanks, Queen Bee. :)

[ApostateAbe]

Another flamewar is inevitable. It will happen. He will attack me, and I will defend myself. It is only a matter of time. So why must you defend yourself?

[Goliath]

Another flamewar is inevitable. It will happen. He will attack me, and I will defend myself. It is only a matter of time. So why must you defend yourself?

Because whether or not character assassination is his intention, I do not want him to succeed at it.

[ApostateAbe]

Goliath, I will continue telling you the truth as I see it, but only if you wish to hear it. I fear that you are treating my advice as attacks against you, and, if that is so, then I can't help you. Do you want to continue to hear what I have to say?

[Goliath]

Goliath, I will continue telling you the truth as I see it, but only if you wish to hear it. I fear that you are treating my advice as attacks against you, and, if that is so, then I can't help you. Do you want to continue to hear what I have to say?

No, I don't think that you've attacked me in this thread. I'm finding it curious as to why you'd defend vm, though.

But yes, by all means, say what you have to say, please.

[ApostateAbe]

Goliath, I will continue telling you the truth as I see it, but only if you wish to hear it. I fear that you are treating my advice as attacks against you, and, if that is so, then I can't help you. Do you want to continue to hear what I have to say?
No, I don't think that you've attacked me in this thread. I'm finding it curious as to why you'd defend vm, though.

But yes, by all means, say what you have to say, please. OK. The truth is that you seem to be assassinating your own character whenever you attempt to defend it. I am not exaggerating for the purpose of irony. With your own words, you really do paint yourself as the person you hope to avoid being seen as. Speaking for myself, I do not judge someone based on the damaging things somebody else says about him or her when I have direct contact with the fellow in question. I judge a man based primarily on his own actions and what comes out of his own mouth when I have the chance to observe.

I do not judge you based on what viscousmemories says about you. I judge you based on your own behavior. As of now, my image of you is a poor one. You seem to bring trouble wherever you go. You often seem to defend yourself against attacks that nobody else perceived. You provoke attacks without realizing it, and you are quick to defend yourself with more venom. Your focus is often on the bad instead of the good in other people. You assume the worst in what people say. You have made enemies with people who are normally friends with everyone else. I am speaking only for myself, but it is a fair guess that others on this board share at least some of my perceptions of you. They do not get the low-down about you from viscousmemories, or livius dreyfus, or pescifish, or me. Their perception of you comes from you.

And so I MUST advise that you STOP defending yourself. Let viscousmemories spew all the fiery hate in Hell at you, while you turn your back and bear it. I can guarentee you with almost complete certainty that your image will improve. People will say more nice things about you. They will say, "That Goliath is a friendly guy, and I like him." They will ask for your opinions. They will listen to you and take you seriously. Viscousmemories will eventually mellow out because he will see very little wrong in you.

One last thing: please do not think that I am defending viscousmemories. If viscousmemories were looking to improve his behavior, then I would be full of advice for him, and it would be much the same as I am giving you now.

[Goliath]

Thank you, Abe. I'll give some serious thought to what you've said here.

[livius drusus]

livius dreyfus?

[Scotty]

livius dreyfus?

He was watching Seinfeld.

-Scott

[livius drusus]

Or reading Zola.

[ApostateAbe]

Or reading Zola. That's it, I was reading Zola, and I couldn't get the troubles of Capitaine Dreyfus off my mind.

[livius drusus]

Oh well, it could have been worse. At least I wasn't livius esterhazy.

[Petra]

Or livius doofus

:haha:

[livius drusus]

Damn skippy, lunabitch.

[Petra]

:giggle:

[Petra]

Thank you, Abe. I'll give some serious thought to what you've said here.

Goliath, AA has said some things that I would like to have said to you sometimes, but just didn't know how to without you thinking I might be attacking you and assassinating your character or something - which I would not ever wish to do, as I genuinely like you and think that there is much, much more to you than meets the eye.

Even before I had ever spoken to you and would just read the wars you would get into over at IIDB, I wished I could just give you a damned hug. Please take on board what AA has said, there is truth in it.

:smilehug:

[seebs]

Thank you, Abe. I'll give some serious thought to what you've said here.

I think he managed to say something I've been trying to figure out how to say for some time.

[wei yau]

Or livius doofus

:haha:

I'll cop to "livius dr seuss"...not because it rolls off the tongue, but because I'm dyslexic like that