Just world fallacies and victim blaming
I have TWO articles up in my browser about this stuff now, some of which could go into five or six different threads, but I want to put them here.
This is a decent meta-takedown on the sorts of takeaways people were getting from that Girls Around Me app posted about in some other threads: Creating Victims And Then Blaming Them | TechCrunch This one makes a pretty convincing argument that this is something bubbling up into the zeitgeist right now, and that for whatever reason, more and more people are calling this sort of thing out: How Right-Wing Bullies Blame and Attack the Victims of Violence and Oppression | | AlterNet OK, now you are allowed to discuss. |
Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming
We know you hate personal responsibility,thank you for the remind
"omg i'm 728 pounds ( 728-Pound Susanne Eman Wants To Be The World’s Fattest Woman [VIDEO]) it is all society faults,when i'll get sick I'm going to get free healthcare from you suckers" "ehy i'm an high school drop-out!!! society own me a future!!" "ehy yesterday night i was running naked near the most dangerous quarter and I got raped ...seriously i'd never expect this!!..i want a FREE ABORTION and free psycological help for my entire life" |
Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming
There is a very serious problem inherent in nearly anything related to this, which is that humans are, as noted, prone to just-world fallacies, and also to failing to distinguish between cause/effect and fault.
Many things you can do alter the likelihood of various outcomes. This doesn't mean that you are at fault if you do not do these things, but it does mean that telling you about them, if you don't know, might be useful. I mean, "wearing a hoodie" is pretty damn ridiculous as an explanation, because that's not an intrinsically crazy thing to do. For an interesting spin, consider paying "protection" money to the local mob. Most people would not consider it reasonable to blame someone for failing to do this, even if failing to do it leads to the local mob doing them harm. But on the other hand, consider failing to dress in baggy clothes near a rapist... A lot of people will somehow conclude that the victim "should" have done that. On the other hand: All else being equal, if you knew that one course of action had a 30% chance of resulting in your tragic death, and another 5%, which would you choose? So we have this vocabulary problem, on top of a tendency to assume that people are totally unaware of the risks they're taking, or to assume that, since they could mitigate those risks, they have a duty to. (This is deeply ingrained in some aspects of our law; try to collect on insurance if you don't lock your doors.) |
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I'm not sure if this fits in this thread exactly, but what do you call it when the FBI arrests someone they have nurtured and created, for being their patsy?
The example I was thinking of is the local case of Mohamed Osman Mohamud. Here's a teenager, who expresses interest in Jihad. However, he has no money, no means of employment, and no training. What does the FBI do? He's planning on going to Alaska to work, and the FBI puts him on the no-fly list. Then they plant an agent to befriend him, and spend a lot of time talking about Jihad. Mohamed has no money, so the agent pays for his apartment. Mohamed has no plan, so the agent creates a plan: blow up the Christmas tree lighting ceremony in downtown Portland. Mohamed has no training in explosives; but that's okay because the agent will build the "bomb" for him. Mohamed has no contacts or means of getting the materials for the bomb, but that's okay, because the agent will acquire those materials for him. Mohamed doesn't have the means to rent a van to transport the explosives to downtown Portland, but that's okay because the agent will rent the van. Oh, also, many conversations have been taped, except there's that one part where Mohamed initially chooses to blow up everybody and says yeah, this is what is best. That part of the tape you can't make out the words. But the agent says that's what the guy who he has been financially supporting, who has been bouncing his Jihad ideas off of for six months, who has made every aspect of this thing possible- that's what he says happened, with this 19-year-old. So- if this 19-year old (at the time) is a would-be mass murderer, what do you call the people who helped him get there, exactly? To me, this is creating a victim and then blaming that victim, writ large. What do you want to bet you couldn't find thousands of 19-year old angry teens and in six months convince them to take out their anger in a murderous way? Seriously. |
Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming
And the thing that makes AML's post particularly pathetic is that, well... Why do we tolerate a state of affairs in which such dangers are regarded as though they were natural phenomena? It's not as though rapists are a kind of meteorology.
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because rape is a part of nature,rape exists even in the animal kingdom
If you knew anything about darwinism you'd know that male have a biological urge to pass down their genes to the next generation some male can't find a partner so they go with prostitutes because they rationally prefer spend 50$ than facing the risk to go prison some male instead ,rationally prefers ,facing the risk to get jailed because they value more 50$ At least in a free market rape is keep to the minimum because you have more than enough women willing to sell their bodies In a socialist country where feminists rule and such thing like prostitution\pornography etc are outlawed or where no woman is willing to play as cheap "cumdumper" for men because the Welfare State takes care of them or because they are well of enough ...well you can expect only a increase of rape stories because not many man could afford 500€ for an handjob and 2000€ for a full service it is the classic econ 101 textbook example of a well-meaning policy(woman should be treated like people and not like sexual objects) that actually do more harm than good |
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Rape isn't just about sex, though. Men don't necessarily rape because they're trying to sow their seed...
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Who pays for your food, AML?
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You really don't know the first thing about 'socialism'[fill in the blank], do you?
Prostitution is perfectly legal (and taxed) here. Doesn't stop any rapes from happening though. |
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It's amazing. It's like a device for being wrong. I propose that we put AML in a science lab. Scientists will discuss questions to which the answer is not yet known, and start with the assumption that whatever AML says is not merely wrong, but offensively stupid, and go from there. It will accelerate human scientific progress by years.
It is particularly funny coming from someone who claims to be a "libertarian". Consider two claims generally advanced by libertarians: 1. People should always be held fully accountable for their own actions. 2. One of the few legitimate purposes of government is taking action to prevent the use of force. In short, an actual libertarian should see rapists as fully responsible volitional actors whose behavior cannot be justified or excused by circumstances, and whom the state should be dealing with forcefully and effectively. But not AML! No, AML somehow thinks that the poor sad rapists are victims of society, not accountable for the choices they've made. |
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True, but AML is/trolls as an anarchocapitalist. He despises all government, except, of course, the really big imperialist governments that colonized Africa. Cuz, you know, coloreds. |
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Thing is, people who are disproportionately victims of certain types of crime are generally pretty familiar with risk mitigation strategies, and know a lot more about it than the people who are often giving the advice. That's what makes it so maddening for some dumb cop to inform women that, to avoid rape, they should dress differently. That, and the fact that his advice wasn't even accurate. "Slutty" clothing hasn't been shown to correlate to rape. So it's generally silly at best to offer risk mitigation advice to people who are the ones mitigating the risk. Trust me that by the time a girl is about ten or so, she probably knows a lot more about this stuff than the average man. So advice like that doesn't mitigate the risk, but the blame. I'm sure that black people are similarly aware of risk mitigation strategies for avoiding profiling and hate crimes, too. In fact, one day when I was working for a small tech company in Boulder, I went to lunch with all of the black people in my company. Boulder is a "liberal," predominantly white city, and it was in an area of town that was mostly businesses, so in the middle of the day, the vast majority of traffic is people going to lunch like us, mostly with no interference. But the other guys in the car started talking about the cops and de facto 'roadblocks' and stuff in the area that I'd never encountered at all and didn't know existed. Because they all got pulled over all the time. They had detailed mitigation strategies just to get to work and back home again. I'd hardly given that sort of thing a thought at all. And to be clear, Geraldo didn't just offer the hoodie thing as well meaning advice. He said the hoodie (and thus, the guy wearing it) was at least as responsible as Zimmerman. The point of the Alternet article, though, is that just recently, these victim blaming excuses have been being shot down, and more people are refusing the fallacy designed to distance themselves from victims of injustices. Things like Slutwalk, the hoodie protests, and the 99% are all explicitly rejecting victim blaming and identifying with, rather than distancing from, victims. And that's a huge step in the right direction. I think someone here mentioned this, but Kurt Vonnegut wrote about the tendency for self-loathing among poor people in America in Slaughterhouse Five: http://open.salon.com/blog/fitzador/...ate_themselves That book was published in 1969, but if you search on that quote, you'll find a sudden resurgence of cites, because for whatever reason, people are talking about that now. (Not enough to show up on Google Trends, but I've seen a bunch of people citing that recently, so it does seem to be going around.) |
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suppose Mr Nowork is starving to death because Mr Nowork can't afford food....Should Mr Nowork being excused if He choices to steal some food?? no,he should serve the full sentence because a thief is a thief no matter the circumstances but the woman who got raped because she had her bare ass exposed is responsable as well ,because it is obvious that clothes play some role |
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read Niall Ferguson: "The moral simplification urge is an extraordinarily powerful one, especially in this country, where imperial guilt can lead to self-flagellation," he told a reporter. "And it leads to very simplistic judgments. The rulers of western Africa prior to the European empires were not running some kind of scout camp. They were engaged in the slave trade. They showed zero sign of developing the country's economic resources. Did Senegal ultimately benefit from French rule? Yes, it's clear. And the counterfactual idea that somehow the indigenous rulers would have been more successful in economic development doesn't have any credibility at all" I'm a pacifist and against imperialism,but say "ooooh Africa is poor because we exploited them " is retard they are poor because black people tend to have a socialist culture and they don't understand individualism |
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Got anything beyond the "it is obvious" pontification to back that up, or are you just talking out of your doughy, lily-white tuchis? Quote:
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Maybe you can combine the two positions by saying that black people tend to be socialist and lack understanding of individualism because they're genetically inferior and thus too stupid to comprehend and embrace laissez-faire capitalism. |
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:lolstossel:
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Ferguson should avoid his intersection of empire apologia and economics, since he has mostly had his ass handed to him. |
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Oh yes! Because the company-men who got complete free reign in there quite literally sent men to cut off the hands and/or feet of people who did not meet their quota. |
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