Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
I think that's a fair point for nanny stating, if the parents don't know enough to push the children to study something the child has possibly arbitrarily decided they didn't like (calculus for example) when they do discover, later, that it's a necessary pre-requisite for something they are interested, they are out of luck.
I didn't look into college until about 3 months before I graduated from high school. My parents had no idea which classes I was taking or had taken. I got no advice about taking classes that would help me in college, with a career or anything else until I specifically asked for it. My parents at least were able to help a bit when I decided. My husband's parents gave him luggage and suggested he enter the military, despite a total lack of aptitude for such a career. I can only imagine a child born of generational poverty having to navigate through academia with a family that says either covertly or overtly "school is useless" faces when trying to navigate through school. Education is traditionally how the working class gets ahead. Much of the backlash against it, is much like the backlash against anything that the working class needs in order to serve it's own interests. I'd also rather see the state keep kids in school (and out of mines, for example) rather than keep a girl from sailing around the world. Sailing is also a dying industry. Not that's on point or anything. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
I think that there needs to be a standard of what we learn, and I think there is one--it's just WAY lower than what most people here seem to be talking about. The baseline standard can't be just for students who will end up being college-ready, but for the large number of students who will not be college-ready and will never be.
When the standard is as low as that, then questions about whether a child should go on a sailing trip instead of school begin to look stupid. When a student has not only been exposed to the baseline education standards, but has mastered them, why shouldn't they be allowed to pursue advanced, independent study? Does it matter if that study is in the library at the school, at the local college, or on a sailboat around the world? I think we can throw out questions about calculus when we talk about baseline education. But, counting, basic arithmetic, fractions--that would be considered baseline education, imo. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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Heck, I took high school Algebra 1 at a CC when I was 26 (personal goal of mine, actually understanding Algebra) and the class was full of recent high school grads....they graduated HS, then had to go back to 9th grade math right away? Anyway point being if anyone, regardless of age, wants to do something that requires X, they can find a way to learn X. Quote:
I could have gone in a year, or 2, I can go now at age 40. Quote:
Also, as we've seen in this economy, even advanced degrees are no guarantee of "success", and I think we as a society do a disservice by telling kids that more and more education is some kind of golden ticket. I recently read a story about a woman with like 100k in student loans for NYU that she cannot hope to pay back anytime soon as interest is adding to it all the time...her degree was in religious and women's studies. Where did she get the notion that she would have the earning potential, with that degree, to pay back that kind of money? Quote:
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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I kinda figure that if a person can read well, and do basic math (emphasis on consumer math), and has a solid basis in the scientific method and critical thinking, then they can learn anything, at any time. There is no moratorium or time limit. This is what I am concentrating on for the next few years with Kiddo. Once this baseline is reached, we will prolly be much more unschooly. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Trades are also not a golden ticket, but unskilled labor is definitely a ticket to poverty.
The number of unemployed people in this recession is heavily represented by those in the construction trades, also significant competition from unskilled and frequently illegal labor. So I don't think trades are necessarily guarantee of success. All the dads picking up their kids from school were talking about how they lost their various construction and contracting jobs as no one was building much of anything. Part of my rant has to do with little or incompetent career counseling. Yes, at any time one can go back and learn X if one has the ability to learn and the self confidence to do so. I think a fair amount of cultural baggage we have devalues education in general. I'd like to see a high school diploma mean something, along the lines of "I can read, do some basic math and know how to learn." Many younger students are eligible for scholarships and grants older students generally have to rely more on savings and loans, in my unscientific observation of students. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Just for the record, calculus was probably a bad example - I don't think that's inflicted on any students who didn't choose to take mathematics at A-level in the UK (further education beyond high school). It just struck me as something ludicrously important to a huge array of subjects, and I had no idea it would be at the time I studied it.
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Sorry I bailed out on this conversation right in the middle, but I suddenly got called into a meeting that lasted until quittin' time, and I don't usually log in from home unless I'm rly rly bored. :wink:
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It would be ideal to say, "No, not those idiots. Real experts in education and science and history, people who are interested in education, not indoctrination, facts not fantasy, etc. etc. etc." But this is damn america and facts and history and science are decided by popular vote instead of, you know, actual facts. You don't want the village raising your child when more than half the villagers are gunning for the idiot position. Maybe we're headed toward another Age of Enlightenment (please please please!), but in the meantime, what is a parent to do? A wise man once said: Quote:
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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I have read about grants and scholarships for older students, as well as educational reimbursements in some industries, so it probably takes research and hard work to find the resources, but seems like younger students have to find their financing the same way. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
I couldn't disagree more that the culture of the US over values education. We don't fund it adequately, and people with education or intellectuals are openly mocked in both political and popular culture.
The education system now is going to a two tier system with the more diverse education only being available to those who can pay for it. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Okay, I see where there was a misunderstanding, I do not disagree with you.
There are many aspects to "education", sorry I was unspecific. I was thinking in different terms of demonstration of valuing. In my mind, the "overvaluing" was demonstrated in how we tend to tell kids that their only choices are college or poverty. I think that leads to hopelessness for those that can't manage college, which leads to giving up and dropping out. Quote:
Also publishing educational materials does not count towards tenure. So even the educated do not value education, to some degree. And yes, the cost of an education is getting further out of reach for more and more people. I don't know a solution to that either. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Double postie
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Hey, sorry I'm not more prompt about responding to the good points people have raised in response to me. I'm trying to wrap up the last werk stuff I have to do before I can get on a plane, while simultaneous packing for my trip,and my :ff: priority was wrapping up the LotR game.
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Obviously. :unnod:
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
I happen to think that the purpose of a good education is to expose the student to learning. Help then understand how they learn. Provide them with basic tools they will need to understand what can be known. Expose them to as much as possible of what can be learned and then hope they will understand the opportunities before them. It is a tall order.
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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PS: In some schools right now, it is being mandated to cut out history classes and other subjects to allow for other ones. I'd have to go back and check which ones that they actually are, but history is important to me - and it should be for all Americans. Included in some of the classes that are being cut in some places is the classes in which children learn about our own government. To me, that is just absurd. Jamie |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Jamie, it appears you've read some of the rebels (Gatto maybe?).
You may be interested in some of our past discussions as this one developed over time from those, and we have hit on some pertinent educational issues, like zero tolerance, autodidactics, schools as discipline camps/industry training centers (ala Foucault and Gatto), John Holt style unschooling, The Core Standards initiative etc. Most has taken place in these two threads, but there are others here in the "Study Hall" forum Homeschooling - Freethought Forum The Great Meep Controversy of 2009 - Freethought Forum |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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A clear success of the US system, I'd say ... |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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If you're talking about auto accidents or military strategy, never mind. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
I think the issue is that kids who are home-schooled for religious reasons often end up reading from books that say stuff like "Electricity is a mystery. No one has ever seen or touched electricity." (Not making that one up, someone posted a sample page of a book from one of those companies.) This results in kids growing up to be just plain dysfunctional.
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Stuff in books is so often wrong, and that's why they should just give up on book learnin' altogether. The best way to learn about electricity is to stick a fork in a socket.
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Also, Miisa really needs to chime in here and explain what makes her country so awesome.
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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It's the relaxed atmosphere, IMO (based on research on how kids learn best). Their schools sound as comfortable as home and it's probably very enjoyable. They also value teachers and so both educate and pay them well. Free college, so the pressure to perform is off, purposefully downplayed competition. If we had schools like this, fewer people would probably feel the need to homeschool. |
Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
I'm basically a facet of the Qingdai hivemind on this topic...she is very smart and I agree with everything she posted.
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