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Old 07-12-2018, 06:46 PM
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erimir erimir is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Default Re: Is it OK to punch a Nazi in the head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
It is very strange that you bring up a perceived slight from almost 10 years ago when you're not even talking to me. ... My opinion of your behavior in those old threads is pretty much the same. I think it's your behavior that has "softened". But the old behaviors still resurface from time to time.
Not strange at all.
I wasn't questioning the relevance to the point you're trying to make.

The strange part is bringing up a decade-old perceived minor slight with a third-party (who is nonetheless "present" in the room) at all. Remembering it and bringing up precisely the post you wanted either means you spent a lot of time finding it OR you remember a decade-old argument very well. Either of which is strange. Personally, I had forgotten about that thread.
Quote:
I'll add this for now: you follow on with a lengthy analysis of things that, as far as I can tell, Jones doesn't say. As far as I can tell, Jones doesn't argue that it is wrong to disagree with Nazis, or with Trump voters, or even with Republicans.
I never said anything that implied Jones thought it was wrong to simply disagree with anyone, Nazi or Republican or whatever else.

Jones was suggesting that there's something hypocritical about praising wealthy liberals for putting principles of helping the poor above their fiscal self-interest but considering working-class Republicans to be idiots when they do the same.

I was agreeing that they're not all idiots (although a not-insignificant portion are), but there's nothing hypocritical about that, because liberals care about what values you are placing above fiscal self-interest.

And then I was also saying that if they're not idiots or ignoramuses, the alternate explanations are rarely particularly praiseworthy (being either motivated by bigotry or greed).

The Republican Party is off the rails, and I think you agree with me on that (and probably so would Jones). It would be far stranger for the supporters of such a corrupt, bigoted, plutocratic party to include many intelligent, informed voters with noble motivations than for most of them to either be fools, ignoramuses, thoughtless followers, or bigots, greedy assholes, etc.

A lot of people would reflexively disagree with this because I'm seemingly condemning such a large portion of the population. Jones probably wouldn't like me saying that around 46 percent of the voting population is like that. But the fact is that we know from other historical examples (such as the Nazis) that a large portion of the population can, in fact, be made to support horrific things, things far worse than what the GOP is doing right now (for now, anyway). Or more directly relevant to US history, we know that a large majority of the white population in the South supported slavery or Jim Crow segregation. While treated as a saint nowadays, at the time, Martin Luther King was disapproved of by a large majority of white Americans. The notion that a large portion of the US population, particularly the white population, could be motivated by racism is... perfectly well-supported by US historical precedent.

Now, do I think this is the best way to win over those Trump voters? No. Democratic politicians should not say such things. They should instead be trying to inform the fools, appeal to other aspects of the bigots' self-interest, and to the greedy ones, either appeal to their better natures (it might not be in your fiscal self-interest, but can you really be ok with tearing apart families?) or argue that their greed is better served by Democrats (for example, Trump's trade wars might be harming their business). Or, just as importantly, appeal to those who didn't vote for Trump or Clinton (who are easier to convince to vote for Democrats). But I'm not a Democratic politician and so I don't need to finesse the truth to make Trump voters feel less shitty about their shitty behavior.
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