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  #1  
Old 05-24-2011, 10:03 PM
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Default Return to Gender 101

Parents keep child's gender secret - Parentcentral.ca

I'm kinda vacillating between "WTF Ur Stoopid" and "Why didn't I think of that because it's a brilliant way to say fuck you to gender stereotyping"
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  #2  
Old 05-24-2011, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Parents keep child's gender secret - Parentcentral.ca

I'm kinda vacillating between "WTF Ur Stoopid" and "Why didn't I think of that because it's a brilliant way to say fuck you to gender stereotyping"
I saw that the other day, in a few different places, and the consistently vitriolic and completely uninformed reactions just cemented my opinion. Anything that makes so many stupid people mad is probably a worthwhile endeavor.
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2011, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
. Anything that makes so many stupid people mad is probably a worthwhile endeavor.

oh absolutely!
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Anything that makes so many stupid people mad is probably a worthwhile endeavor.
Yeah, this. Especially when their anger takes the form of Kenny-like inarticulate bleatings with a vaguely decipherable theme of "But what if this means that I'm not really a man (/woman/definitely understood and uncomplicated thing)?"
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

When I was a pre-teen and my mom was in night school, she'd sometimes take me with her and let me audit a session of one of her classes, especially this one women's studies class she took me to because of feminism.

So we watched this film someone made that was a social experiment where they had a man holding a toddler in the park, and the story was he was babysitting, he pretended he didn't know the gender. Moms and other people would come by and be like, "oh cute! how old?" etc like people do, but when they would ask "boy or girl" he would be like, "I don't know" and their minds were blown.

That was forever ago and I still remember how unnerved I was by people's reactions. Like people would want to check and they would start getting physical with the guy and the baby and he had to be like "wow, hey, back off!" and stuff. And they would rage out like "how can you not know?! I must know!"
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  #6  
Old 06-09-2011, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve View Post
When I was a pre-teen and my mom was in night school, she'd sometimes take me with her and let me audit a session of one of her classes, especially this one women's studies class she took me to because of feminism.

So we watched this film someone made that was a social experiment where they had a man holding a toddler in the park, and the story was he was babysitting, he pretended he didn't know the gender. Moms and other people would come by and be like, "oh cute! how old?" etc like people do, but when they would ask "boy or girl" he would be like, "I don't know" and their minds were blown.

That was forever ago and I still remember how unnerved I was by people's reactions. Like people would want to check and they would start getting physical with the guy and the baby and he had to be like "wow, hey, back off!" and stuff. And they would rage out like "how can you not know?! I must know!"
I thought about this poast when I got this e-mail this morning, inviting me to a babby shower, since this is an office. It went out to the whole division, so probably at least 40-50 people, including random interns like me who have been here for all of a month. I reproduce it here exactly as it is in the e-mail, with names changed.
Quote:
Herp and Derpina are expecting,
and they’re making us wait
to see who arrives
on their due date!
Come guess the sex
of this bundle of joy –
we're all excited be it
a girl or a boy!

wtffffffff weird

I have no idea who these people are, so I'm thinking about going to the party and trying to get a game started where we guess the sexual orientation of the babby, because hey, this is my business.

ETA: I checked the distribution list. Over 90 people.

Last edited by ChuckF; 06-09-2011 at 08:45 PM.
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  #7  
Old 05-24-2011, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Wow, I think the sense of entitlement to know somebody else's business creeps me out even more than the gender issue.
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2011, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Like people would want to check and they would start getting physical with the guy and the baby and he had to be like "wow, hey, back off!" and stuff. And they would rage out like "how can you not know?! I must know!"
Probably why SNL's Pat was so funny, because people are like that
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2011, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Friends said they were imposing their political and ideological values on a newborn.
This is true. It is also true that the 'friends' wish to do so as well, only with a different set of values. It's kind of like how judges are only 'activist' when they are doing something ideologically opposed to the speaker.

Quote:
Most of all, people said they were setting their kids up for a life of bullying in a world that can be cruel to outsiders.
Acknowledge the status quo as being wrong, but support it anyway! Great fun!
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  #10  
Old 05-24-2011, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Gender is such a deeply fundamental construct, people honestly don't even know how to relate to someone without gender identity. Even beyond the obvious pronoun issue.

The most lulzy and hilarious aspect to the hostile responses to me is the gender essentialists who say that gender is so hardwired that ignoring it is ignoring some very fundamental aspect of that babby's humanity.

Because if it's such a fundamental and hardwired thing, you'd think they'd be able to tell without asking and policing about it all the time.

When TLM was a babby, people thought he was a girl all the time, and I guess a couple of times I was a little slow to correct them (like, "What's her name?" "The Little Muffin," "But that's a BOY'S NAME!" "Oh, she is a boy"). They'd get all agitated, like they'd made some horrible mistake to call a boy 'she' or something. I'd always sorta wonder why they were so flabbergasted over it. I mean, it's not like they were going to have sex with that lady baby and only narrowly escaped an awkward situation. He didn't care. I didn't care. Why did they?
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  #11  
Old 05-25-2011, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
They'd get all agitated, like they'd made some horrible mistake to call a boy 'she' or something. I'd always sorta wonder why they were so flabbergasted over it. I mean, it's not like they were going to have sex with that lady baby and only narrowly escaped an awkward situation. He didn't care. I didn't care. Why did they?
I actually kind of understand the reaction, because they're expecting you to be really touchy. You should see how people react when I'm working and call their male dog "she" :dawkins:
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  #12  
Old 05-25-2011, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naru View Post
I actually kind of understand the reaction, because they're expecting you to be really touchy. You should see how people react when I'm working and call their male dog "she" :dawkins:
This is one reason I wanted the Gender option on FF. I occasionally forget genders online and people often get pissed off if you call them by the wrong gender.

As a guy with long hair, I barely notice when people get confused and generally answer to both genders. It's interesting how hair length and gender seems to be connected, even with a decent amount of stubble long hair means female.
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2011, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Return to Gender 101

This might be of interest.

http://www.logotv.com/video/bear-run...playlist.jhtml

At first you may wonder what this has to do with gender issues, but stick with it and you'll understand. Bear Run is a small documentary that follows three individuals who identify with being a Bear. It also explores issues of sexuality, gender, masculinity, societal pressure, and male intimacy.
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  #14  
Old 05-25-2011, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
This is one reason I wanted the Gender option on FF. I occasionally forget genders online and people often get pissed off if you call them by the wrong gender.
I would just lol if someone got really mad that I mistook their gender on the internet.

(But I should also add that the main reason I call people by the wrong pronouns on purpose is to obfuscate all the times I do it on accident.)
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2011, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Nobody ever mistakes Kiddo for a girl. Also, his natural temperament is very boy, though not exclusively...like he favors guns and swords but also likes his lovies and dolls and playing dress up (though his favored costumes are all warrior type things). He likes the color pink.

However, some people say stuff to him, though rarely in my presence, because at the store he might say "that's a girls toy"
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Nobody ever mistakes Kiddo for a girl. Also, his natural temperament is very boy, though not exclusively...like he favors guns and swords but also likes his lovies and dolls and playing dress up (though his favored costumes are all warrior type things). He likes the color pink.

However, some people say stuff to him, though rarely in my presence, because at the store he might say "that's a girls toy"
I kind of like to be an asshole when people say things about boys' and girls' products, and tell them that it is wrong to try to sell [toys|clothes|whatever] that already belong to someone else.
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  #17  
Old 05-25-2011, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

I was going to say, I once said a boy had "pretty hair." I got an extreme dressing down from the mom how he was a boy.
I also was bad and said, "that's nice, he still has pretty hair."
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

I think that when people are subconsciously working out how to interact with someone they run through a mental checklist and the first point is gender. If they can't establish that then they have no baseline with which to interact with that person. Then they schiz out.

Count has been telling me that sex and gender are different and that gender is a social construct. I'll take her word for it. She knows stuff. I know that the brains of human males and females develop differently but I don't know how that translates to gender.

Could someone start a thread and give me the starter course in Gender 101?
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Here is a followup article about all the angry goobers.

Star readers rage about couple raising ‘genderless' infant - Parentcentral.ca

The parents have said they don't want to give any more interviews, but they're being very generous and patient about some people who've said some really hostile shit about them.

But also, yes, I agree with Mrs. Deadlokd that some user with thread starting privileges should start a Sex and Gender thread.
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  #20  
Old 05-25-2011, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

tina fey recently remarked, on the ellen show,
when asked the gender of her unborn child, that
she would know when she saw what it chose to
wear to prom.....

once you declare a gender on a birth certificate
in some states, it is irrevocable, which sucks in the
major leagues for transgender and transexual people

gender fluidity isnt novel, just unappreciated


btw, preferred gender pronouns (PGPs)
sometimes used by gender non-conformists
are zie, hir, hirs.... and yeah, it takes
a few tries to get it right, but it isnt
actually all that difficult...


ps

gender 101

sex is between the legs
gender is between the ears
and love is between the lungs

sorta
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  #21  
Old 05-25-2011, 05:23 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
but also likes his lovies
Wait. What's girlie about that?! I've a whole menagerie of cuddlies I sleep with. Two come into combat with me. (Nessie and MiniHedgie)

Quote:
He likes the color pink
Can't recall if it was this board, or another forum, but it was pointed out that pink is historically a guy's colour. The branch colour of German Panzertruppen (Tankers) is pink.

However, yes, I think the Canadians in question are a little strange. That said, I received many expressions of surprise when I said that I wanted to have no advance warning of my offspring's gender. Wasn't as if I could do much about it anyway, so what's the hurry?

NTM
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:33 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

From the follow up article
Quote:
“I would encourage people to stretch their imaginations and try to see the creativity and exploration in Storm’s parents’ efforts to create gender freedom for their child, rather than jumping to condemnation or criticism,” she said, adding people should take a moment to ask themselves, “Why does this get me so riled up?”

Dr. Ken Zucker, a psychologist and head of the gender identity service for children at Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, thinks the story has struck a nerve because it made people think about issues, such as sex and gender, that are normally taken for granted.
That's really it I think. People just sort of assume that boys are like boys and girls are like girls and there is boy things and girl things and why would anybody even question such things?
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

There are a lot of people who are very invested for some reason in gender essentialism, or the idea that there are fundamentally male and female qualities that go beyond reproductive biology. And there are some differences, but they're not nearly as expressed or as consistent as the essentialists claim.

But ultimately, the most compelling argument against gender essentialism is the essentialists themselves. If there were innate gender differences the way they claim, that'd be that. They wouldn't need to be told a child's sex to know its gender, and they wouldn't need to police it constantly the way they do.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:44 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlokd View Post
Could someone start a thread and give me the starter course in Gender 101?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
But also, yes, I agree with Mrs. Deadlokd that some user with thread starting privileges should start a Sex and Gender thread.
I could just split this discussion into a new thread. Shea, your post would be the OP. Are you up for that?
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: Miscellany

Ah, the Adminz come through. Phew.
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