Self defense

[Pyrrho]

Link thieved from a post at another forum. I think it's worth the time to read.

Street robberies and you - The Basics - AR15.COM

Of course, it's not a given that any of it is true.

[Ymir's blood]

I love how he brags about threatening a woman with jail if she doesn't turn in her son. That's classy.

[chunksmediocrites]

So I understand that this person is writing for a particular audience. People who are big on guns, and big on self-defense through guns.

I have a couple problems and a few areas where I can agree with what the author is saying. I can agree that it is important to be aware of your surroundings. It is important that you be able to discern intent. If you don't like the scenario, don't engage with people.

One of the big problems I have is that prevention isn't emphasized more. This person- presenting as a trained police officer- has many personal anecdotes to color the piece where actions caused would-be attackers to rethink what they were doing. Okay, sure. And I want a society where people can be relatively safe in any scenario. But minimizing exposure to dangerous scenarios is probably a better safety mechanism to pick and reinforce- and then talk about the times that doesn't work.

The other problem I have is that the author spends a lot of the post explaining how there are categories of people who have little compunction on hurting or killing others, who have desensitized themselves to violence. I'm not arguing, except in that the author comes across as a cynic whose work kept him? in contact with humanity at its low point. But the author is generalizing whole groups as basically sub-human. Then the author spends a fair amount of time explaining how you should condition yourself in the same way, so you can defeat them. I think a lot of this feeds into the fears, both real and exaggerated, of many gun owners, and the fantasies of gun owners. They are hard and I will be harder. They are scum-bags but they messed with the wrong comic-book cliche would-be put-upon, reluctant hero. Which is kind of sub-adult and involves remaking oneself in the image of that which they despise. You can choose to do this, and I'm not arguing that there is no reason to condition oneself to be able to use violence against other humans. Just be aware there are costs involved to that mindset, depending on the degree you are willing to go; and be aware you don't really want to get into a who-can-have-less-ethical-compunctions challenge.

It is quite possible that you may run into a situation in your life where other humans are acting in a predatory manner on the street (as opposed to normal predatory phone and mail solicitations, predatory lending, and all manner of dehumanized economic violence sanctioned by the state), and it is not a bad idea to think about a few things ahead of time, that may help you not take on the role of prey. But at the same time be aware that violent crime has been decreasing every year for thirty years nation-wide. Be aware that despite all the police procedurals and movies, most police officers never fire their weapon on duty in their entire career. And lastly, be aware that some scenarios with people carrying guns and using their gun in a situation ends with injured bystanders, or people sleeping in their beds in a house down the street catching a bullet, or the gun being taken away and used on the person carrying it. People with guns in their home are also, duh, more likely to use the gun in the home in suicides, accidents, and domestic violence. So a gun is a tool that can be used to escalate rather than resolve a situation. Ante-ing up sometimes results in people calling your bet.

In a situation where you think people are seriously predatory, having yourself in a defensible position and putting your hand in your bag or under your shirt or in your jacket where a person might carry a weapon could cause some people to think twice. I don't have a problem with that advice in particular. But there are a lot of ways that scenario may also be inaccurate, as to how it is played out.

[PopeyesPappy]

People don’t always have that much of a choice about what part of town they find themselves in Chunk. A UPS driver, social worker, or someone in any of a thousand other jobs could find themselves in someplace like North Philly or South Memphis at some point in their career. For those people or anyone else that might find themselves in a high crime area for whatever reason it is hard to argue that situational awareness and conflict avoidance techniques are a bad thing.

As far as guns go I’m a shooter. Mostly service rifle, high power or small bore rifle, but I’ve also done some action pistol and 3 gun matches from time to time over the years. I’m probably at the range (a private club) 40 to 50 times a year. It is what I do for fun although I probably enjoy tinkering with the firearms more than shooting them. I’ve also attended a dozen or so self defense classes including both armed and unarmed techniques. I usually carry a gun everywhere it is legal for me to do so. There is nothing in the link posted in OP that is inconsistent with anything I’ve heard from various LEO or military types in the past.

Once in my nearly 25 years of carrying a gun I’ve found myself in a situation like those described in the link. I was on a road trip getting gas in an area I wasn’t familiar with when a couple of young black men approached asking for money. They didn’t stop when I said no, put my hand on hip and stepped through the pumps to the far side of the island. They sure as hell did when they came around either side of my car and found me standing there with my 1911 at low ready though.

[Demimonde]

I was on a road trip getting gas in an area I wasn’t familiar with when a couple of young black men approached asking for money. They didn’t stop when I said no, put my hand on hip and stepped through the pumps to the far side of the island.

In my neighborhood, that is called a Tuesday.

I have never threatened a panhandler with a gun though. Typically, a laugh, a wave of my credit card, and saying that I am stuck with plastic until payday is enough if they are hard pressing me. I will offer them a smoke if I have one though.

[PopeyesPappy]

These weren’t what I’d call panhandlers Demi. They weren’t happy about being told no and were acting in an aggressive manner. When they separated to come at me from two different directions I reacted in the way I felt most likely to keep me healthy. They weren’t too damn happy about it but fuck them. Nobody including me got hurt, and I’m pretty happy with that outcome.

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by PopeyesPappy

People don’t always have that much of a choice about what part of town they find themselves in Chunk. A UPS driver, social worker, or someone in any of a thousand other jobs could find themselves in someplace like North Philly or South Memphis at some point in their career. For those people or anyone else that might find themselves in a high crime area for whatever reason it is hard to argue that situational awareness and conflict avoidance techniques are a bad thing.

Since I didn't argue that situational awareness or conflict avoidance techniques are a bad thing- I actually agreed- I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by PopeyesPappy

There is nothing in the link posted in OP that is inconsistent with anything I’ve heard from various LEO or military types in the past.

No, it's fairly standard boilerplate NRA propaganda for gun enthusiasts to nod sagely at. People are scum who would kill you as soon as look at you. Credentials as authority on the subject of dealing with the scum. You gotta steel yourself to protect you and your loved ones from the baddies. Anecdotal evidence. Tellin' it like it is. Be safe.

Originally Posted by PopeyesPappy

Once in my nearly 25 years of carrying a gun I’ve found myself in a situation like those described in the link. I was on a road trip getting gas in an area I wasn’t familiar with when a couple of young black men approached asking for money. They didn’t stop when I said no, put my hand on hip and stepped through the pumps to the far side of the island. They sure as hell did when they came around either side of my car and found me standing there with my 1911 at low ready though.

Hey a gun anecdote.

[Demimonde]

Originally Posted by PopeyesPappy

These weren’t what I’d call panhandlers Demi. They weren’t happy about being told no and were acting in an aggressive manner. When they separated to come at me from two different directions I reacted in the way I felt most likely to keep me healthy. They weren’t too damn happy about it but fuck them. Nobody including me got hurt, and I’m pretty happy with that outcome.

I have no doubt that you do feel that way. You did not state that they were acting in an aggressive manner, just that they didn't take your first no as an answer. I was just commenting that a hard press is not uncommon among panhandlers. Especially in this economy.

Also, my response was also to the following, which as chunk noted, was a non sequitur and had nothing to do with what he actually said.

Originally Posted by PopeyesPappy

People don’t always have that much of a choice about what part of town they find themselves in Chunk.

And some people "find themselves" living there. Either because they chose to or because they have no choice and economically depressed areas are their reality.

A UPS driver, social worker, or someone in any of a thousand other jobs could find themselves in someplace like North Philly or South Memphis at some point in their career.

All of your examples are people who might venture into a hypothetical scary bad place. That kind of attitude is xenophobic and counter productive IMO. Especially when discussing arming yourself and appropriate use of force.

For those people or anyone else that might find themselves in a high crime area for whatever reason it is hard to argue that situational awareness and conflict avoidance techniques are a bad thing.

It can be in my area. Among the poor in my hood, whether they are homeless, panhandlers, drug dealers or prostitutes, not to mention regular members of the community who are going to or from work or just going about their lives, they would much rather deal with a local person with greater "situational awareness" into the community and "conflict avoidance" in not threatening their neighbors rather than a scared suburbanite with gun fantasies not to mention dehumanizing "instruction" like that offered in the OP.

My state has CCL, and there have been many tragedies which could have been avoided perpetrated by yahoos with such fearful attitudes towards the poor. Typically in the media they are touted as heroes. That is doubly tragic to me.

What struck me about the post linked in the OP, as chunk noted, is the dehumanizing rationalization about "armed robbers" and their regard for life. Most of that is pure rationalization on the part of the author with little to no basis in fact. It is a pure straw man which makes the rest of his rhetoric easier to swallow. It is standard boilerplate but that doesn't make it any more true. It also begs the question that law abiding gun owners have some kind of higher regard for human life which is not based on any evidence I can see. Quite the contrary in my experience actually.

Additionally, I was struck by how many of his scenarios did not in fact deal with armed robbery at all, just perceived threat. Several men approaching in a park does not meet the criteria for armed robbery, nor is a car driving the same block twice in an urban environment, regardless of who is behind the wheel. The example of the rapist is even more off as that is a totally separate crime with completely different motivations.

Most of the examples concern a hypothetical normal upstanding citizen (who carries a gun) dealing with perceived threats from those that are different and presumed to be dangerous criminals. It fuels paranoia and xenophobia in my opinion. It also puts others at risk, either from mistaking those that pose no threat as a threat, or to bystanders who are caught in the cross fire.

There are extreme marketing pressures being put on demographics prone to fear of the unknown despite the fact that crime is on the decline. It is a big business that feeds on those fears and the rhetoric is pretty transparent to those who are not in that demographic.

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

Hey a gun anecdote.

Don't forget the Pr0n.

ETA: Despite all the paranoia farming in marketing and media, the statistics on crime over the last twenty years are damn near comforting. Despite our population increasing by sixty million, incidents of violent crime have plummeted. FBI- Crime in the US.

Of course, that doesn't stop sites like crimminal.law.com from being the first google result, with misleading headlines and no discernible facts at all in sight even while they decry such statistics they do not link to.

[ZEZOZE]

is that flashlight to better see aggressive black panhandlers in the dark?

i do like the leather backdrop...makes it seem all tough and manly...

[Dingfod]

I always carry a suitcase nuke, you never know when you're going to need it. Dynamite is so 1888.

[Ari]

PepperSpray is the most effective civilian defense weapon.
There's a reason the police use it on protesters. It's extremely effective at clearing an area without leaving lasting effects to the victim.

It's the most effective because it requires no thought. None of this bluffing and trying to puff your gun cock bigger than theirs. If you feel they are a threat and they are in range, unload the canister on them and watch them cry. Holy crap you sprayed your friend in the face! You better apologize later. Holy crap you shot your friend in the face! Oops, now you need something black for the funeral. Pepperspray is completely non lethal (unless used by cops), so you can actually fire first and ask questions later. Unlike pulling a gun or knife it rarely escalates the situation further. Hesitation is often what gets people injured or killed and by removing that choice an everyday person can stay safe without walking around acting like it's a war zone.

What about teh PCPs and other drugs they are obviously hopped up on? No worries capsaicin reacts with mucus membranes directly causing inflammation, tearing, sneezing etc. Which is good enough because you are just trying to get away, not beat them more before you arrest them. The most effective cure is time.

Pepper spray does lack the stopping power of a good shot. If someone is running at you, you might get hit or grabbed but only once. Whereas a bullet can cause instant death, crumpling the body.

Isn't Pepper Spray for pussies? Man up and go snort a line of it. When done explain to me why a weapon which can make people feel they are being burned alive without that annoying thing of a quick death isn't awesome.

But everyone is out to kill me man!
Yeah not really, the murder rate in a 'hard' city like Oakland is only avg 130 a year, most of them personal or gang related. You're more likely to die getting hit by a car while you were eyeing those thugs, not watching the road, than to be robbed and killed by them.

[ceptimus]

If you're filling your car with gas when the miscreants start bothering you, then you don't need to use your gun. Simply remove the filling nozzle from your car and spray gas over the (most likely) black guys. If that does't deter them sufficiently you can ignite them by tossing your cigarette at the now-flammable yobbos. (this is one reason why you should always smoke while filling your car - ignore those stupid nannying signs that tell you not to).

[But]

And if they are stupid enough to fire a gun while soaked with gasoline, you can die a happy person knowing that the security camera is capturing one of the most amazing youtube videos ever. Also, instant karma. You go to hell for not doing what Jesus told you and giving all you have to the poor guys, and they go to hell for coveting they neighbor's wallet.

[Dingfod]

I think mercaptan sulfur is an effective crime deterrent. Who the hell wants to smell like a skunk?

[Dingfod]

WTF, ?

[erimir]

This little editorial appeared in the student newspaper at my former school: feeling safe does not equal being safe

I thought the title was ironic. Such great reasoning too... Concealed carry permit holders must pass backgrounds checks, so they are less criminal than the general population, therefore giving people CC permits will make the student body less criminal.

[Angakuk]

In my life thus far I have read exactly two articles from the Technician. The one linked here and the one linked in this post. Are they putting something in the water in Raleigh?