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Old 03-30-2012, 08:47 PM
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Reading Homosexuality in the Bible

What do you think about this?

Matthew Vines, The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality

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Old 03-30-2012, 09:47 PM
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"My secrets are not sold cheaply," he said softly.

The Old Man of the Mountain stamped his foot, and a great crack appeared in the earth, and our poor mules brayed in terror as they plunged down into blackness with the cartload of treasure; he waved his hand, and the crack closed as though it had never been.

"It is perilous to waste my time," he whispered.

--J.D.

Last edited by Doctor X; 04-06-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

Critical analysis here: The Bible Does Not Affirm Homosexual Activity or Homosexual Marriage stasis online
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

And by critical analysis you mean hardcore fundamentalist denialism.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
And by critical analysis you mean hardcore fundamentalist denialism.
No Watser, I dont. Both Vines and the critique speak from a position of presuming the Bible to be true and fairly literal. If Vines had claimed that some of the New Testament passages were merely poetic, then I suppose it might be fair to contrast the critique as being comparatively hardcore. But in actual fact I think both were speaking the same language.
Vine's primary point in the presentation is not whether homosexual relationships are normal/healthy/acceptable/ok. Rather his primary point is whether the Bible supports the idea. And so long as your position on the Bible is one of taking it as authoritative, then it doesnt matter whether you have a moderately liberal interpretation of the Bible or whether you are a hard core fundamentalist in your interpretation - it's just about what that book says. All sides agree that most English translations imply that homosexual sexual relationships are illicit for Christians, that there is controversy over the 6 or so passages that are usually translated as referring to homosexuality, and that the New Testament passages that clearly describe relationships for Christians portray either eunuchs/singleness or heterosexual marriage.
I know it seems hardcore these days to say anything about homosexuality not being an option in all cases and all environments, but the Bible is what it is. Vines doesnt have to follow it - there are many other non-biblical religions to choose from.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

Ah ok - so bigotry is not just for fundamentalists? And if gay people don't like it they can always fuck off?

Charming.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Ah ok - so bigotry is not just for fundamentalists? And if gay people don't like it they can always fuck off?

Charming.
well yes, Vivisectus, although Jesus would be a bit more polite about it, me thinks.

In accepting the 'bigotry' charge though, Im not saying that gays cant be Christian. Im just saying that according to the Bible, a gay Christian cant have gay sex, much in the same way that a Christian alcoholic cant get drunk.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

This thread was originally a comment thread to an article by Doctor X. Unfortunately the article is no longer -- Doc X deleted it -- so I'm splitting the comments into a thread of their own.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

I was gonna ask, why did he delete them all? Fit of pique, or something else going on?
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

The former, although I suppose from his perspective he was wronged, see the exchange at the end of this thread. After that, he took down his avatar and sig and deleted all his articles.
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

Quote:
Originally Posted by australian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Ah ok - so bigotry is not just for fundamentalists? And if gay people don't like it they can always fuck off?

Charming.
well yes, Vivisectus, although Jesus would be a bit more polite about it, me thinks.
LOL, WWJD.

Where does Jesus, in the New Testament, condemn gay sex?

Quote:
In accepting the 'bigotry' charge though, Im not saying that gays cant be Christian. Im just saying that according to the Bible, a gay Christian cant have gay sex, much in the same way that a Christian alcoholic cant get drunk.
Why should anyone care what the Bible says in the first place?

Why would God create gays, and then tell them they can't act on the feelings that God himself created? Is God a sadist? :chin:
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Where in the Bible does it say that alcoholics can't get drunk?
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  #13  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by livius drusus View Post
The former, although I suppose from his perspective he was wronged, see the exchange at the end of this thread. After that, he took down his avatar and sig and deleted all his articles.
Leesifer slew the ogre, all by her little old skunky self. Wooo!
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  #14  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:06 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

What about the relationship between David and Jonathan, where the two shared each other's nakedness, or something like that? I don't recall where it was, because it was something somebody had pointed out way back when. Anyway, when I read it myself, it seemed to suggest this is the type of relationship they had (homosexual), without implying there was something wrong with it.

I suppose if you Google, "Jonathan, David and homosexual," you might be able to find that particular passage.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. ~ 2 Samuel 1:26
Quote:
30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? ~ 1 Samuel 20:30
Whether Jonathan and David's relationship was strictly platonic or not (it's commonly maintained that it was), Saul's behavior appears to suggest it wasn't.

There may be more to it than this, but this was all I could find for now.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

Quote:
Originally Posted by australian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Ah ok - so bigotry is not just for fundamentalists? And if gay people don't like it they can always fuck off?

Charming.
well yes, Vivisectus, although Jesus would be a bit more polite about it, me thinks.

In accepting the 'bigotry' charge though, Im not saying that gays cant be Christian. Im just saying that according to the Bible, a gay Christian cant have gay sex, much in the same way that a Christian alcoholic cant get drunk.
As I said: Bigotry. You even compare homosexuality with alcoholism, a destructive addiction that will harm your mind and body. How hateful. How can you accept it so casually? What you are trying to justify is discrimination against about 10% of any given population.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Doc X left? That is too bad. I rather liked him.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:33 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by livius drusus View Post
The former, although I suppose from his perspective he was wronged, see the exchange at the end of this thread. After that, he took down his avatar and sig and deleted all his articles.
:rofl:
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

Stop that! -ed
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

Wow, so many questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Where does Jesus, in the New Testament, condemn gay sex?
I cant think of anywhere where he specifically condemns it, davidm. Did someone say he did explicitly condemn it? I did imply he would ask intentional sinners to leave his band of followers. I think a reasonable case can be made that this would include those who continue to engage in homosexual sex, based on passages such as John 8:11, Mat 10:14, 37-38 which indicated there was a limit to Jesus patience towards those who are broadly not compliant, and other passages such as Mat 19, Luke 14:26 which indicate that Jesus considered a having a heterosexual spouse to be the sole relationship model for his followers, other than being single / a eunuch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Why should anyone care what the Bible says in the first place?
The person who posted that video should perhaps answer this one. They started with this topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Why would God create gays, and then tell them they can't act on the feelings that God himself created? Is God a sadist? :chin:
Yea good question. I guess the same applies to all the nice things straight people cant have either; other people's spouses, and too many cakes :P Sorry that question is too deep for me!
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

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Originally Posted by livius drusus View Post
Where in the Bible does it say that alcoholics can't get drunk?
I suggest we not stray from the main topic, bus since you asked, Romans 13:12-14, 1 Corinthians 5:11, Galations 5:21 etc.
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Doc X left? That is too bad. I rather liked him.
Me too. Did he leave? What the hell? :sadcheer:
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
What about the relationship between David and Jonathan ... when I read it myself, it seemed to suggest this is the type of relationship they had (homosexual), without implying there was something wrong with it.
Iacchus, I guess as you found when you went looking for substantiation, it's questionable whether David & Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, despite their relationship being very close. But many of the characters in the Bible are presented as flawed individuals, as we all are, so heck, perhaps there was some homosexual goings on. Various factors suggest otherwise though, including:
* The fact that both David and Jonathan had children (2 Samuel 4:4, 2 Samuel 3:5 etc) and David had multiple wives.
* The fact that traditionally, Judaism has understood homosexual intercourse as contrary to gods wishes, and even in the above video clip, the pro-gay presenter acknowledges that the early parts of the Old Testament outlaw it.
* The fact that David was so special in the overall Old Testament narrative. Would someone this special engage is such sin without apparent relevant reprimand in the scriptures?

The Bible is very supportive of love though, and does not teach against close non-sexual relationships between friends. Even Jesus had a man he was very close to, hence the reference to "the disciple that Jesus loved" (John 21:20).
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible . . . and You!

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Originally Posted by australian View Post
Wow, so many questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Where does Jesus, in the New Testament, condemn gay sex?
I cant think of anywhere where he specifically condemns it, davidm. Did someone say he did explicitly condemn it?
You said a gay Christian can't have gay sex. "Christianity" is founded in the name of Christ. So I want to know why we should believe that a gay Christian can't have gay sex. This proscription, is valid, must be based on the words of the man in whose name the religion is founded. If you can't find those words, we shall have to conclude that your claim is a crock.
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality in the Bible

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
What about the relationship between David and Jonathan ... when I read it myself, it seemed to suggest this is the type of relationship they had (homosexual), without implying there was something wrong with it.
Iacchus, I guess as you found when you went looking for substantiation, it's questionable whether David & Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, despite their relationship being very close. But many of the characters in the Bible are presented as flawed individuals, as we all are, so heck, perhaps there was some homosexual goings on.
Why is homosexuality a "flaw"?
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