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  #26  
Old 04-02-2012, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Here's the thing:

Why aren't we still doing that? Because it was not actually the best way to make money. It's not just that people decided it was unethical; it's that we learned that we could do better.

Problem is, economic corrections aren't necessarily going to correct things within, say, two or three centuries.
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  #27  
Old 04-03-2012, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
Here's the thing:

Why aren't we still doing that? Because it was not actually the best way to make money. It's not just that people decided it was unethical; it's that we learned that we could do better.
Roger Ebert's review of The Yes Men:
Quote:
From an economic point of view, the Civil War was the least profitable of all our wars, because the destruction of lives and property involved Americans on both sides. In our other wars, most of the lives and property belonged to foreigners. The war was fought to abolish slavery, but slavery would soon have faded away on its own, because it made no economic sense. Think how much it costs to support a slave.

The involuntary servitude of imported labor, which is what slavery amounts to, has been replaced in our times by the much more efficient system of exporting jobs to countries that are poor to begin with, and thus have lower maintenance costs for labor. This "remote labor" is the natural alternative to slavery, and, as a bonus, there is no reason for the worker not to be free. Thus he is responsible for his own housing, feeding and medical care -- which can be at a cost level much lower than a slave owner could safely provide.

The new "remote labor system," enforced by the World Trade Organization through its system of loans and regulations for poor countries, is much more efficient for First World capitalism. It exports manufacturing and assembly jobs to Third World countries where athletic shoes, clothing, home appliances, tools, computers and toys are assembled by labor forces paid only pennies an hour. The use of child labor further reduces the cost, and removing the children from school diminishes the threat of educated opposition to the system.

On the statements above we can all agree, right? Or was there a point at which you realized I was making an outrageous and immoral argument, and you were offended? I ask because when a fake "spokesman" for the World Trade Organization made the same argument before a WTO trade forum in Finland, the audience listened politely, applauded, and had no questions.
If the that you are referring to is horrific and brutal conditions of forced servitude, yes the current system does not match the levels of brutality of the Congo Free State- however actual slave labor still exists, and is used; and certainly the desperate economic straits and poverty of at least a quarter of the world population lends itself to profitability for the businesses and nations relying on an underclass of poverty, prison labor, and desperate conditions to produce many goods and services cheaply.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2012, 05:16 AM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Niam Chimsky called this "wageslavery"....but,like always,he said horseshit dispoven by BASIC economics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

in a free market everyone gets for what they produce and if you think otherwise you should taken some economics lesson...oh no you need ONLY a lesson to know more than Chimsky

http://mises.org/books/economics_in_...on_hazlitt.pdf

frankly i have learned more from this book than from college
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2012, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

This, however, is not the fault of the college.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2012, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

some people create victims to blame, some create them to save :shrug:
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  #31  
Old 04-03-2012, 08:32 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
in a free market everyone gets for what they produce
Right. So what have you produced so far, Mr. Nowork?
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  #32  
Old 04-03-2012, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Internet posts with.. erm.. subjective value.
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  #33  
Old 04-03-2012, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

What does Mises say about the tendency for unregulated markets to use child and forced labor?

Chocolate industry responds – The CNN Freedom Project: Ending Modern-Day Slavery - CNN.com Blogs
http://fightslaverynow.org/why-fight...ortrafficking/

Last edited by LadyShea; 04-03-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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  #34  
Old 04-03-2012, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

"i don't see anything wrong about preparing kids at very young age how to be independent, self reliant and be productive.Besides, they get the benefits of physical fitness outdoor"

lol, you bleeding heart freethoughter commies.
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  #35  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
What does Mises say about the tendency for unregulated markets to use child and forced labor?

Chocolate industry responds – The CNN Freedom Project: Ending Modern-Day Slavery - CNN.com Blogs
LABOR TRAFFICKING « Fight Slavery Now!
they are working here often because it is better than all other alternatives(die by starvation in the gutter,prostitution) or they would have sued these companies

In addiction,in a true free market without government regulations who make people feel safer and warmer("oooh we have a black president,so nothing can go wrong for black people"<---liberal logic) ,people would spend more time and money getting information about what they are buying....the "work policies" of industry x are considered inhumane? well everyone will boycott "industry x"

simple LOGIC
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Last edited by AynMisesLibertarian; 04-03-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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  #36  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
or they would have sued these companies
Child slaves should sue, is that really what you just said?

What about the kids put 20 miles out to sea to fish on rickety platforms...how would they go about suing?

Like all lolbertarians you're spoiled, self absorbed and have a stunning lack of compassion, AML. I ask again, who pays for your food?
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  #37  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
What does Mises say about the tendency for unregulated markets to use child and forced labor?

Chocolate industry responds – The CNN Freedom Project: Ending Modern-Day Slavery - CNN.com Blogs
LABOR TRAFFICKING « Fight Slavery Now!
they are working here often because it is better than all other alternatives(die by starvation in the gutter,prostitution) or they would have sued these companies

In addiction,in a true free market without government regulations who make people feel safer and warmer("oooh we have a black president,so nothing can go wrong for black people"<---liberal logic) ,people would spend more time and money getting information about what they are buying....the "work policies" of industry x are considered inhumane? well everyone will boycott "industry x"

simple IDIOCY
:fixed:
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  #38  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
simple LOGIC
This is my favorite part about the rabid lolbertarian. A lot of them are rather disdainful of old-style philosophy, and most tout the virtues of SCIENCE(!) as preferable and superior. Yet, one never sees any hard data behind the usual lolbertarian fantasies. No explicit observations, no blind trials, no replicable testing, nothing. They often even go so far as to say outright, as this idiot does, that the conclusions of the True Free Market(TM) and how it would work are arrived at ONLY through logic and reason. Whatever that may be, it isn't science.

It's like watching someone get so worked up that he actually punches himself in the face to teach you a lesson. I could watch all day.
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  #39  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:32 PM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
or they would have sued these companies
Child slaves should sue, is that really what you just said?

What about the kids put 20 miles out to sea to fish on rickety platforms...how would they go about suing?
Why don't you sue for them if you care so much?

Quote:
Like all lolbertarians you're spoiled, self absorbed and have a stunning lack of compassion, AML
No I'm a man so I use LOGIC

most women(women are much more emotional,there is a reason why all libertarians i personally know are males or masculine like Rand) and liberal/socialist/communist(left-wing are effeminate ideologies that care about "heart" than about "brain") are just emoting their way out

there is a reason why most libertarians are male and the principal libertarian site worldwide is called REASON.COM

so called "compassion" is not a virtue,but a weakness


Quote:
A lot of them are rather disdainful of old-style philosophy, and most tout the virtues of SCIENCE(!) as preferable and superior. Yet, one never sees any hard data behind the usual lolbertarian fantasies. No explicit observations, no blind trials, no replicable testing, nothing.
What about Praxeology?
What the Hell is Praxeology?

Frankly i don't understand how you can deny the law of praxeology without deny self-ownership(you own yourself) and your very existance(because say "i don't believe in praxeology" is like saying "I don't believe people act with a purpose")
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Last edited by AynMisesLibertarian; 04-03-2012 at 04:45 PM.
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  #40  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
there is a reason why most libertarians are male and the principal libertarian site worldwide is called REASON.COM
Is it because they love philosophy so much?
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  #41  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
or they would have sued these companies
Child slaves should sue, is that really what you just said?

What about the kids put 20 miles out to sea to fish on rickety platforms...how would they go about suing?
Why don't you sue from them if you care so much?
Sue who? How? On what grounds? Do you understand anything at all about civil litigation, let alone across International borders? Obviously not because you're an idiot.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Like all lolbertarians you're spoiled, self absorbed and have a stunning lack of compassion, AML
Quote:
Originally Posted by AML
No I'm a man so I use LOGIC
Nope, you're selfish and stupid without any empathy. You're loathsome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AML
women(women are much more emotional,there is a reason why all libertarians i personally know are males) and liberal/socialist/communist(left-wing are effeminate ideologies that care about "heart" than about "brain") are just emoting their way out
Sociopaths are mostly men too...coincidence?

Who pays for your food AML?
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  #42  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Who pays for your food AML?
THE FREE MARKET (aka his daddy)
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  #43  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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No I'm a man so I use LOGIC
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  #44  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

AML, men are not particularly more logical than women. The only documented "more logical" group is autistics, who are admittedly often pretty shy of empathy. But you're not logical; you're highly emotional and defensive. You seem to think that, because your expressed wording doesn't use emotional language, you're not being emotional, but that's not how it works. Emotions are earlier in the game than that; your emotions present an answer to you, then your "rational" mind comes up with excuses for them.

If you think you aren't emotional, all that means is that you're not even aware of this, and thus not taking it into account when trying to evaluate conclusions.

A typical result of this would be, say, a hilariously short-sighted view of fairness and justice in which someone who has never done or earned anything expresses contempt for people who have actually done stuff, on the grounds that the stuff he would have done if he'd done stuff would have been, like, super important.

You're a spoiled teenager, just like all the other spoiled teenagers, but without the redeeming traits because you've worked hard to eliminate them.

I've met people who are highly logical. You're not one of them.
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  #45  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

There's a big difference between rationality and rationalization. AML seems to have confused the latter for the former.
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  #46  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
AML, men are not particularly more logical than women. The only documented "more logical" group is autistics, who are admittedly often pretty shy of empathy.
I believe most Aspergers are libertarians,for example ECONOMICS NOBEL Vernon L. Smith is both a UBER LIBERTARIAN and an asperger
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
AML, men are not particularly more logical than women. The only documented "more logical" group is autistics, who are admittedly often pretty shy of empathy.
I believe most Aspergers are libertarians
Is there any reason why you believe that?
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  #48  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
AML, men are not particularly more logical than women. The only documented "more logical" group is autistics, who are admittedly often pretty shy of empathy.
I believe most Aspergers are libertarians,for example ECONOMICS NOBEL Vernon L. Smith is both a UBER LIBERTARIAN and an asperger
I'm high-functioning autistic (same thing, really), and I identified as a libertarian as a kid. Then I learned a lot more about how humans actually worked, and realized that libertarianism has exactly the same flaw as communism: It's a brilliant system of government for a species which is not humans.

We tend to assume that people are rational, but the reality is that they're not, and a system which presupposes rationality and long-term thinking is a system based on a false premise.

And weren't you the one who thought "objective" was a good thing? Well, the objective reality is that humans are not at all economically rational. And you know, I hope, that reasoning from false premises yields false conclusions.
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  #49  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:53 PM
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We tend to assume that people are rational, but the reality is that they're not.
Even if you were right that change nothing,actually is more a reason for free market

In an ultra-competitive free-market the more rational(aka the guy who acts more in according to economic models) will get much more money than the less rational and will make the vast majority of economics choices

I prefer the money in the hand of Bill Gates or Eric Schmidt who will create more JOBS and OPPORTUNITIES FOR EVERYONE than in the hands of some useless McDonald's burger-flipping 70IQ drone that can't wait to return home in order to spend his wage in useless shit(XBOX games etc)
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Quote:
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AML, men are not particularly more logical than women. The only documented "more logical" group is autistics, who are admittedly often pretty shy of empathy.
I believe most Aspergers are libertarians
Is there any reason why you believe that?
Ignoring the obvious problem ("the plural of anecdote is not data"), I've seen a lot of autistics go through a phase of liking systems that would work well if everyone were rational or kind.
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