Mentorship...

[Gawen]

Hiya folks...been a while since I posted here. I've been reading the boards though and just enjoying a silent lucidity, as it were.
Anyway, since my management-imposed job change in real life, I've been 'posted' to a job with one other guy. His name is Eric. He's 25, married, has a two year old boy and trying to make his way through life...like the rest of us. His life consists of work and home.
I like Eric. A lot, even though there's a 25 year age difference.

I've known Eric for 3 years, but since working closely with him, I've found that he's basically living a fiancially and self induced life of......no where. He's come out and told me that I'm about the only fresh breath of air he ever gets. Not that he's disgruntled with homelife, he just doesn't hang with people of...and I hate to say this, cause it sounds arrogant...but he doesn't hang with people of intellect.

Remember where I live. A fundy North Texas town. The more stupid you are, the more godly you are. Yet, on the other hand, the more money you make and the flashier the SUV you drive, the more God smiled on you. Yeah, makes no sense to me either.

Over the past couple months, Eric and I have talked of all sorts of things. Things he never contemplates. Things he never thought to contemplate. He says he loves to hear me 'ramble'. And I have to chuckle because I do ramble. You'll see evidence of that here, in this post. But I reckon in my way of talking with him, his eyes open...or rather, his mind. Of course he has a conscience, but it seems to me that he uses me in a way to develop it rather than exploring it on his own.
He now considers himself a Deist. A word and definition he never heard of before thursday last. No, he's not Xtian, nor agnostic, nor atheist. As matter of fact, I had to tell him the definitions of the words friday. It's like talking to a child, but one that understands rather than asking "why". But when he does understand, he asks all manner of questions. I find it refreshing to see him sit in the other seat of the truck cab contemplating things I've told him. His facial expressions run the gamut from "I don't understand" to "I understand" and in-between.

He's not a big talker. Never has been, really. But I've seen change in him. He's asking questions. And I too ask him questions. I try to make it simple, then develop it further...deeper. Many times I have to prompt a word or two when he's stumped. Many times he has to stop me and ask what this word...that word...means. I forget that I'm not talking with people from FF or IIDB...lol.

There's been lots of talk about changing people throughout the ages. One never knows how one may influence another. I always thought, wondered, that most likely I never would change a person other than a family member, like my kids, for example. Eric is simple...simply put. Not that he's not intelligent, for I see his intelligence every day. I reckon he just never uses it in ways that all of us here use it. But he's breaking out now. Using his mind in things he never thought of or never thought necessary to think about. And I'm kinda proud of myself to be his helping hand. Of course, it would be so much different if he were a fundy.

I like Eric. Yeah, he's a good guy. And I hope some of you meet him if you come to the gathering. I'm his (and all of my other co-workers) first taste of atheism. I want him to see others and to know we're not all that bad.

So, the Eric I knew 3 years ago will be a different Eric you would meet. And I will continue to be his mentor, as he puts it. And before long, I hope, he'll no longer be 'simple', but to mentor someone else with reason and intelligence. I could die happy knowing that....that I had a hand in 'change'...and that it continues, or would continue without me.

And thus ends my silent lucidity for a little while.

[ApostateAbe]

Can you tell me more about religion in Texas? You say that the more stupid you are, the more godly you are. That is something I suspected, but I see only a weak correlation where I live and in Internet forums. And you also said, "the more money you make and the flashier the SUV you drive, the more God smiled on you." That is something I haven't seen in my home community. Wealth is more often looked down upon as something vain and ungodly. I thought that was in the past. Can you tell me more about religion in the south?

[Dingfod]

Abe, I don't necessarily agree that Gawen's statement "the more stupid you are, the more godly you are." applies to Texas or even worse, Oklahoma or anywhere else really. But, I do know of loads of corroborative anecdotal evidence in both of those states that supports that view. Let's just say I know a lot of them get their info on what's going on the world from the National Enquirer and Weekly World News and their politics from Rush Limbaugh, Oliver North and Sean Hannity on the radio and Fox News on TV.

[ApostateAbe]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Abe, I don't necessarily agree that Gawen's statement "the more stupid you are, the more godly you are." applies to Texas or even worse, Oklahoma or anywhere else really. But, I do know of loads of corroborative anecdotal evidence in both of those states that supports that view. Let's just say I know a lot of them get their info on what's going on the world from the National Enquirer and Weekly World News and their politics from Rush Limbaugh, Oliver North and Sean Hannity on the radio and Fox News on TV.

warrenly, can you expand on that thought? Perhaps, in the south, having little education doesn't necessarily mean being religious, but perhaps there is a strong correlation, whereas there is only a weak correlation everywhere else. What other evidence do you see that might shed some light on the idea?

[livius drusus]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the tone in your OP, Gawen. It strikes me as patronizing, like he's a kid instead of a married father of one. I doubt you ever would have gotten to this point if he weren't an intellectually curious, open-minded, generous human being and I'm honestly not seeing much respect for that in your post.

I mean, do you mean to say that your way of talking are what opened his mind? He's not an empty vessel, obviously. Where do his own talents fit in this mentoring relationship? Have you learned anything from him?

I think the religion in the south/stupid=godly discussion is a whole other topic. Suffice it to say that I live in the South; I know a lot of devoutly religious people, and not only are they not stupid, but I find such facile correlations unprovable and offensive.

[Dingfod]

Abe, I have nothing more than anecdotal observations. I know of no study that verifies that claim. You want specific examples? I need look no further than my in-laws.

[Gawen]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I'm a little uncomfortable with the tone in your OP, Gawen. It strikes me as patronizing, like he's a kid instead of a married father of one. I doubt you ever would have gotten to this point if he weren't an intellectually curious, open-minded, generous human being and I'm honestly not seeing much respect for that in your post.
Patronising? Perhaps my post comes off that way. I was afraid of that. But he is like a person that's sheltered or confined. Everyone makes fun of him behind his back. And I haven't a clue why. I like the guy. We go to the bar every friday payday.
But you don't...can't understand the conditions I work in and the people I work with. Intelligent conversation is talking about who won or had the best crash in the NASCAR race and intelligent TV is Jerry Springer. Bush is God and the Iraqi war is not just condoned, but honourable. Eric isn't like the other guys. Eric goes home for lunch, as do I. The neat thing is, Liv, he IS an intellectually curious, open-minded, generous human being. He just never lets on. He's the only one I can talk to about...stuff. But I always end up doing most of the talking. And I know he's thinking about what we talk about. I lent him my copy of Thomas Paines' The Age of Reason. I can't wait to find out what he thinks about it. You say, "I doubt you ever would have gotten to this point if he weren't an intellectually curious, open-minded, generous human being...". I can say that about every other person I work with.

I mean, do you mean to say that your way of talking are what opened his mind? He's not an empty vessel, obviously. Where do his own talents fit in this mentoring relationship? Have you learned anything from him? I think the way I talk and the stuff we talk about, he's always thought, although he's never brought it up to others and visa versa. What we read and write here in these forums is not touched upon where I live and work, even generally speaking. I don't think I've opened his mind, per say, but given him a conduit to speak the forbidden subjects, as it were. Do I think he goes home and tells his wife what we talk about? I haven't a clue. I do know he can't speak to his parents or extended family, being they're fundies. What have I learned from him? Well, I have been able to explore myself by talking with him. There's an actual person I'm speaking to, one on one. And it's very different than here. There's no time to sit back and think for a day a reply. I get to exercise my mind with him. We both benefit. And he's a real friend.

I think the religion in the south/stupid=godly discussion is a whole other topic. Suffice it to say that I live in the South; I know a lot of devoutly religious people, and not only are they not stupid, but I find such facile correlations unprovable and offensive. Ok, I generalised here. Sorry. It's not always this way. There's a lot of religious people here that are very successful. I can tell when I drive by those 3000 seat churches that have 3 services every sunday and each are filled. There's more money in these church parking lots than many dealers car lots. At any rate, success does not necessarily denote intelligence, but that's also a different topic. But many folk (where I live) who are not for lack of a better word, learned, are the most fundamental whether they be successful or not...such has been my experience.

It's not like I'm telling him things and he bows down to me. I give him more respect than he's ever gotten from anyone we work with. And I really can't understand why the rest of our co-workers are like that. I haven't opened his mind at all. All I've done is make it known that it's ok to talk about such stuff. No one else will...or does. So when I say he seems sheltered or confined in his knowledge, he's finally found a person that will talk to him about things instead of calling him names, and visa versa. He's the only person I know where I live that isn't afraid to talk of the unknown or supernatural without saying Amen. I think 'mentor' is the wrong word as well. I'm no wise advisor, teacher or coach.



I am just his friend.

[Gawen]

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Can you tell me more about religion in Texas? You say that the more stupid you are, the more godly you are. That is something I suspected, but I see only a weak correlation where I live and in Internet forums. And you also said, "the more money you make and the flashier the SUV you drive, the more God smiled on you." That is something I haven't seen in my home community. Wealth is more often looked down upon as something vain and ungodly. I thought that was in the past. Can you tell me more about religion in the south?

I can't tell you more about religion in Texas. It's something you have to experience. I can tell you that there are more Baptists churches and Church of Christ/God churches, along with other evangelicals than any other denomination. I can tell you about my city, it has one Catholic church, 2 Presbyterian (one Cumberland Presbyterian), one Lutheran, one Methodist, one Jehovah's Witness, and one Latter day saints church. There are 55 churches in the area and this in a city of 25,000. The Catholic and Lutheran churches have pretty low attendance.

As for wealth, I've gone to the Cumberland Presbyterian church several times. I have never seen more high hair, massive engagement and wedding rings painted and sculpted toe nails, big boobs, expensive suits and dresses and $30,000 to $40,000 cars in the parking lots in one place, the exception being the malls. The minister (Pastor, they call him here) lives in I reckon a $150,000 (or more) house ($60,000 more than mine), and he drives more expensive vehicles than I do. I also know a guy around the age of 22-23 that works for a Baptist-type church as a custodian. He drives a Corvette. His insurance is more than $1100 per month. The church must pay very well. Or rather, God smiled pretty well. Good thing he lives at home. When I'm out and about on Sunday mornings, I see the same things at most churches I pass by. What correlation there is, I guess one can be made by Big Money, Big God. All I know is that I come from Michigan and I don't remember seeing such a flaunting of well-to-do.

I also know that in this years city council and school board elections, religion played a large part. The runners were glad to tell you what church they go to. The churches and parisheners were glad to tell you what great christians the runners are. Never mind that two of the elected council members and a school board member are related to each other in some way and all go to the same large Baptist church.

However, if there is a correlation between scientists and their lack of faith, why could there not be a correlation of lower knowledge and the Godly? It seems logical. I realise that just because one is not a scientist doesn't mean that the one is not intelligent. I also realise that wealth does not denote intelligence or lack thereof.

[wildernesse]

The UMC's website says there are 3 United Methodist churches in your town actually. Heehee. I just like looking random stuff up--plus, I was interested in how a town the size of Gainesville, GA managed one Methodist church. Even knowing that Georgia is one of the states with a high UMC population--for instance, Gainesville has 18 UMC's listed--I expected more than one.

Random use of procrastination. Return to thread's actual topic.

[Godless Wonder]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I'm a little uncomfortable with the tone in your OP, Gawen. It strikes me as patronizing, like he's a kid . . .

He's 25. He is a kid.

[wildernesse]

He's 25. He is a kid.

Woohoo! Me too! I am so not ever growing up.

[Gawen]

I went through the phone book (size 6x9 inches, if it were a full size phone book, it'd be a 1/4 inch thick), whos yellow pages reach the staggering number of 226. And looking at it again, there are 3 Methodist churhes in my area. One is right outside the city limits in another county, the other is in a town called Crowley...just a few miles away. The city annexed some area last year. So the church in Tarrant County may now be in the city limits...but I'm not sure.

[Dingfod]

Oklahoma is just about like Texas in church concentration. In my Tulsa suburb town of 20,000, there are loads of churches, 75 total, 1 AME, 37 Baptist, 2 Bible, 1 Catholic, 4 Christian, 1 Church of Christ, 4 Church of God (Pent), 1 Episcopal, 1 Lutheran, 1 Methodist, 1 Pentecostal Mission, 1 Nazarene, 10 Nondenominational, 1 United Pentecostal, 1 Pentecostal Church of God, 1 Presbyterian, 1 7th Day Adventist, and the Salvation Army church. All that and just 2 beer bars and 2 liquor stores. I'm just basking in all the Christian love and tolerance here.

Just for comparison purposes though, my little town in Colorado had a lot of churches for a town of 600 souls, 2 Baptist, 1 Assembly of God, 1 Methodist, 1 Presbyterian, 1 Episcopal, 1 Catholic, 1 7th Day Adventist, a congregation that met in the Grange Hall, another that met in an otherwise empty downtown store, and a few Mormons who attended a country church 10 miles away for a total of 11. The largest was the First Southern Baptist, which claimed a membership of 275, almost half the town. The total works out to one church for every 55 people there, compared to one per 267 here in Oklahoma. And yet, in my completely unscientific estimate the percentage of unchurched godless and near godless heathens was higher there. There were two bars and two liquor stores there as well.

[LadyShea]

Gawen, I am glad you have found a friend you can talk to and who is receptive to new ideas, but you keep talking about all of this being related to where you live. I am wondering if it's not your chosen profession. IIRC you work for the city...do the jobs of your coworkers require them to be educated at all?

But you don't...can't understand the conditions I work in and the people I work with. Intelligent conversation is talking about who won or had the best crash in the NASCAR race and intelligent TV is Jerry Springer. Bush is God and the Iraqi war is not just condoned, but honourable.

Certain high paying but labor intensive fields are filled with unintellectual people...here in Nevada, my friend's husband makes a bundle on a State road crew, but he and most of his coworkers are high school drop outs and much as you described above. I would not expect them to have intellectual discussions.

You seem starved for intelligent conversation and I think that's one thing that has attracted you so much to Eric. Since your days are filled with this, I think you need to find hobbies or pasttimes that put you in contact with different types of people. Is there a college or University in your area? Surely you can find concerts, book readings/book clubs, art galleries, or something? You live in Burleson? My map shows it less than an hour from Dallas, is that true? Dalls is a thriving metropolis with tons of non-Natives and lots going on.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Gawen

Patronising? Perhaps my post comes off that way. I was afraid of that. But he is like a person that's sheltered or confined. Everyone makes fun of him behind his back. And I haven't a clue why. I like the guy. We go to the bar every friday payday.

But you don't...can't understand the conditions I work in and the people I work with. Intelligent conversation is talking about who won or had the best crash in the NASCAR race and intelligent TV is Jerry Springer. Bush is God and the Iraqi war is not just condoned, but honourable. Eric isn't like the other guys. Eric goes home for lunch, as do I. The neat thing is, Liv, he IS an intellectually curious, open-minded, generous human being. He just never lets on.

I was definitely talking about your post rather than your actual interactions with Eric. Thank you for following up with a more detailed description of y'all's friendship, though. It looks like there's a really genuine, really special bond between you, one grounded in exploration and discussion. I don't doubt for a moment that such a thing is rare indeed in your immediate environment (I suspect it's rare for many people, in fact, including myself).

One of the big cultural differences to which I've had to adjust since I left Italy oh so many years ago is the lack of in depth conversation about just about any topic. Honestly, I don't think Americans talk very much with friends and coworkers, certainly not about potentially controversial things. I blame the short-n-early dinners.

He's the only one I can talk to about...stuff. But I always end up doing most of the talking. And I know he's thinking about what we talk about. I lent him my copy of Thomas Paines' The Age of Reason. I can't wait to find out what he thinks about it.

I can definitely identify with your excitement on this score. It's a great thing to share a book you cherish with someone who's never been exposed to it before. You get a whole new perspective, both on the old favorite and the person who just read it.

You say, "I doubt you ever would have gotten to this point if he weren't an intellectually curious, open-minded, generous human being...". I can say that about every other person I work with.

Did you mean you can't say that about every other person I work with?

I think the way I talk and the stuff we talk about, he's always thought, although he's never brought it up to others and visa versa. What we read and write here in these forums is not touched upon where I live and work, even generally speaking. I don't think I've opened his mind, per say, but given him a conduit to speak the forbidden subjects, as it were.

That makes a great deal of sense of to me. So often we think things in solitude without realizing there are others out there treading much the same path. Do you ever wonder when you look around your workplace if there are any other people contemplating similar issues but who would never come out and say so?

What have I learned from him? Well, I have been able to explore myself by talking with him. There's an actual person I'm speaking to, one on one. And it's very different than here. There's no time to sit back and think for a day a reply. I get to exercise my mind with him. We both benefit. And he's a real friend.

I think that's just lovely, Gawen. I'm very happy for you both.

Originally Posted by Gawen

Ok, I generalised here. Sorry. It's not always this way. There's a lot of religious people here that are very successful. I can tell when I drive by those 3000 seat churches that have 3 services every sunday and each are filled. There's more money in these church parking lots than many dealers car lots. At any rate, success does not necessarily denote intelligence, but that's also a different topic. But many folk (where I live) who are not for lack of a better word, learned, are the most fundamental whether they be successful or not...such has been my experience.

Well, the number of churches doesn't really mean anything to me, having grown up in a city with hundreds of them. I don't think it correlates to much of anything, really, and I've yet to see a decently laid out argument making any case about the significance of church/religious prevalence in determining the intellectual girth of a given population.

It's not like I'm telling him things and he bows down to me. I give him more respect than he's ever gotten from anyone we work with. And I really can't understand why the rest of our co-workers are like that. I haven't opened his mind at all. All I've done is make it known that it's ok to talk about such stuff. No one else will...or does. So when I say he seems sheltered or confined in his knowledge, he's finally found a person that will talk to him about things instead of calling him names, and visa versa. He's the only person I know where I live that isn't afraid to talk of the unknown or supernatural without saying Amen. I think 'mentor' is the wrong word as well. I'm no wise advisor, teacher or coach.

I am just his friend.

That's awesome. I'm really glad you expanded on your OP, Gawen. I think the friendship you describe is a rich and strong one. It's downright symbiotic, in fact.

What kinds of names do people call him, if I may ask? I know you don't get why they treat Eric so poorly since you know first hand what a great person he is, but what is it that they tease him about? It sucks ass to see adults still treating each other like elementary school never ended.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by Gawen

The more stupid you are, the more godly you are.

I didn't take this to mean that relgious people are stupid. I took it to mean that in certain circles of fundydom, willful ignorance and lack of sophistication are admired. This is definitely something I've seen.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

I didn't take this to mean that relgious people are stupid. I took it to mean that in certain circles of fundydom, willful ignorance and lack of sophistication are admired. This is definitely something I've seen.

That makes sense, Dave, although again, it's not a well structured argument and is pretty poorly evidenced. I imagine, for instance, that you might consider congregation X in one of those certain circles while they themselves do not. Also, willfull ignorance and lack of sophistication are no more synonymous with stupidity than stinginess is with poverty.

[Gawen]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Oklahoma is just about like Texas in church concentration. In my Tulsa suburb town of 20,000, there are loads of churches, 75 total, 1 AME, 37 Baptist, 2 Bible, 1 Catholic, 4 Christian, 1 Church of Christ, 4 Church of God (Pent), 1 Episcopal, 1 Lutheran, 1 Methodist, 1 Pentecostal Mission, 1 Nazarene, 10 Nondenominational, 1 United Pentecostal, 1 Pentecostal Church of God, 1 Presbyterian, 1 7th Day Adventist, and the Salvation Army church. All that and just 2 beer bars and 2 liquor stores. I'm just basking in all the Christian love and tolerance here.

Just for comparison purposes though, my little town in Colorado had a lot of churches for a town of 600 souls, 2 Baptist, 1 Assembly of God, 1 Methodist, 1 Presbyterian, 1 Episcopal, 1 Catholic, 1 7th Day Adventist, a congregation that met in the Grange Hall, another that met in an otherwise empty downtown store, and a few Mormons who attended a country church 10 miles away for a total of 11. The largest was the First Southern Baptist, which claimed a membership of 275, almost half the town. The total works out to one church for every 55 people there, compared to one per 267 here in Oklahoma. And yet, in my completely unscientific estimate the percentage of unchurched godless and near godless heathens was higher there. There were two bars and two liquor stores there as well.

Well...who's first...ahhh...warrenly.

Same here. Except that Burleson is a dry town in a dry county. On the ballot this year was a motion to allow beer and wine sold in restaurants and places like Wal-Mart. It was voted down. Tarrant county (Ft. Worth) is not dry and Burleson overlaps a small part of Tarrant county, yet the within Burleson city limits in a wet county is still dry. But go over the city limits where Restaurant Row fills both sides of I-35 like a bleachers in a football stadium, several bars and drive through beer joints and you'll see a great deal of Jesus fish in the parking lots. The idea is to keep crime out of the city. Two feet out of the city.

[Gawen]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Gawen, I am glad you have found a friend you can talk to and who is receptive to new ideas, but you keep talking about all of this being related to where you live. I am wondering if it's not your chosen profession. IIRC you work for the city...do the jobs of your coworkers require them to be educated at all?

Certain high paying but labor intensive fields are filled with unintellectual people...here in Nevada, my friend's husband makes a bundle on a State road crew, but he and most of his coworkers are high school drop outs and much as you described above. I would not expect them to have intellectual discussions.

You seem starved for intelligent conversation and I think that's one thing that has attracted you so much to Eric. Since your days are filled with this, I think you need to find hobbies or pasttimes that put you in contact with different types of people. Is there a college or University in your area? Surely you can find concerts, book readings/book clubs, art galleries, or something? You live in Burleson? My map shows it less than an hour from Dallas, is that true? Dalls is a thriving metropolis with tons of non-Natives and lots going on.

Ahhh..Me Lady Shea...*wavin*

I can see where you say I thinks this is related to where I live. Upon reflection, in Michigan where I had a (semi) technical job, I was staved for intelligent conversation as well. And there I also had a good friend that could talk to me on levels that others would not or could not. All Public Works employees here are required to have a high school diploma or equivalent. It is no different than your friend who works for DOT. Here, as well as in Michigan, I can't seem to understand why people let themselves (for lack of a better word) stagnate. But in Texas, it's willful, or even more so.

For example, there's a certain xenophobia of anything non-American and lesser still of things not 'southern' and even lesser still of things not Texan. It just floors me to hear my Xtian co-workers grumble about nuking Iraq and let God sort them out. Of grabbing all Middle Eastern people and sending them back...along with homosexuals and liberals and Canadians (of all people...lol). I ask what they have against Canada and all I get is they just don't like them. I told them I'm half Canadian with quite a few relatives there and they kinda shut up.

I've checked out a couple groups of Atheists in the area. Neither appeal due to several factors, two of which are time, distance and money. I know there are Atheists/Free thinkers in my town, but trying to find them.....
People just don't talk of such things here. And that is why, like you say, am attracted to Eric. He's open to thought...other points of view.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Gawen

I've checked out a couple groups of Atheists in the area. Neither appeal due to several factors, two of which are time, distance and money. I know there are Atheists/Free thinkers in my town, but trying to find them.....
People just don't talk of such things here. And that is why, like you say, am attracted to Eric. He's open to thought...other points of view.

I didn't say anything about atheist groups, just to nitpick at ya . I thoroughly disliked the secualr organizations here.

What I mentioned were places where more intellectual people would hang out. Live theater, book readings/signings, art galleries, concerts...heck I am sure there are even a few beatnick style coffee shops in Dallas (we have one in Vegas!)

[Gawen]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I was definitely talking about your post rather than your actual interactions with Eric. Thank you for following up with a more detailed description of y'all's friendship, though.

I was trying not to write rambling pages of stuff. Trying to get to the point...I reckon I didn't do it very well the first time.

It looks like there's a really genuine, really special bond between you, one grounded in exploration and discussion. I don't doubt for a moment that such a thing is rare indeed in your immediate environment (I suspect it's rare for many people, in fact, including myself).

I think so, about the genuine part. Although we have our separate lives outside of work, excepting two days out of the month for a bit of drinkin socialising. I can only see us getting closer as friends as time goes on.

One of the big cultural differences to which I've had to adjust since I left Italy oh so many years ago is the lack of in depth conversation about just about any topic. Honestly, I don't think Americans talk very much with friends and coworkers, certainly not about potentially controversial things. I blame the short-n-early dinners.

In my experience here, in Tx., talk is cheap and superfluous...or superficial, unless it has to do with Bush or the GOP or "God-given moral" issues. It's a whole different world down here.

I can definitely identify with your excitement on this score. It's a great thing to share a book you cherish with someone who's never been exposed to it before. You get a whole new perspective, both on the old favorite and the person who just read it.

I thought about this. Truly, I can't see anyone else wanting to read The Age of Reason. And even if they grudgingly gave in, I can't see them getting more than 10 pages into it before they give it back or burn it.

Originally Posted by me

You say, "I doubt you ever would have gotten to this point if he weren't an intellectually curious, open-minded, generous human being...". I can say that about every other person I work with.

{quote=you] Did you mean you can't say that about every other person I work with?[/quote] Yeah...*slappin me forehead*

Originally Posted by me

I think the way I talk and the stuff we talk about, he's always thought, although he's never brought it up to others and visa versa. What we read and write here in these forums is not touched upon where I live and work, even generally speaking. I don't think I've opened his mind, per say, but given him a conduit to speak the forbidden subjects, as it were.

Originally Posted by you

That makes a great deal of sense of to me. So often we think things in solitude without realizing there are others out there treading much the same path. Do you ever wonder when you look around your workplace if there are any other people contemplating similar issues but who would never come out and say so?

I have broached the subject of God to a couple of the younger guys. Although they fell that everyone has a right to believe whatever one believes, which releives me, they do not bring up the subject and I get the drift they would not care to talk about it further. I reckon I need to tell you, I'm the second oldest in my department. The oldest is an ex-Baptist preacher, somewhere around 71 years old. I'm next and the dept. supervisor is the third around 45 years old. There is one guy in his mid thirties and the rest are all in their 20's. So not only do I not relate well to people that are the age of my kids, there's no one my age!...lol.

Well, the number of churches doesn't really mean anything to me, having grown up in a city with hundreds of them. I don't think it correlates to much of anything, really, and I've yet to see a decently laid out argument making any case about the significance of church/religious prevalence in determining the intellectual girth of a given population.

I would love to see a couple studies on this.

Originally Posted by me

I am just his friend.

That's awesome. I'm really glad you expanded on your OP, Gawen. I think the friendship you describe is a rich and strong one. It's downright symbiotic, in fact.

Thanks. And to think I've known him for 3 years and only now I find out about this. I like to think he thinks the same about me.

What kinds of names do people call him, if I may ask? I know you don't get why they treat Eric so poorly since you know first hand what a great person he is, but what is it that they tease him about? It sucks ass to see adults still treating each other like elementary school never ended.

Well, Eric has a gut...kinda like a beer belly. Because of this, he's called "Fat-nugget". He has long blonde hair that he pulld back over his ears and ties up to keep out of his face. He's called "Mullet". And then there's the usual bull shit names like idiot and dumbass, but those aren't used a lot. Matter of fact, when I speak to others about him and say his name, I have to back track and use Mullet because it's been used for so long. I don't think Eric knows they call him names though.

[Gawen]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

I didn't take this to mean that relgious people are stupid. I took it to mean that in certain circles of fundydom, willful ignorance and lack of sophistication are admired. This is definitely something I've seen.

Precisely. Leave it to someone else to say it right for me...*almost blushin*

[livius drusus]

I'll answer you shortly, Gawen, but until then, yay on the formatting of your reply. Yay, yay, yay!

[Gawen]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I didn't say anything about atheist groups, just to nitpick at ya . I thoroughly disliked the secualr organizations here.

What I mentioned were places where more intellectual people would hang out. Live theater, book readings/signings, art galleries, concerts...heck I am sure there are even a few beatnick style coffee shops in Dallas (we have one in Vegas!)

Ummm...let me think here a couple tics...

Ahhh, yeah...there IS a tiny Starbucks here in town...*chucklin*. And a Borders opened up last year. I was invited to a Xtian concert last month. Seems several of the ladies in City Hall offices were going and decided to invite the entire work force. Seriously though, I have money and time issues. Ft. Worth is one thing. Dallas is just too far away for gallivanting about. And traffic is a total bitch.

[LadyShea]

My map says you are 35 miles from Dallas. I grew up in a small town about that distance from Colorado Spgs, and I actually drove it daily for work....surely you can "head to town" a couple of weekends a month?

And isn't Ft. Worth fairly large and diverse?