Rumble in the Nerd Lab!

[Deadlokd]

In the blue corner we have Mac! Sourced from here and coming in with a 3.06 GHz dual core intel processor, 2 Gb RAM, 500GB hard drive, 8x double-layer SuperDrive and an NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS with 512MB memory. Total price US$2199.00.

In the red corner we have a handbuilt PC! Specced from U-Mart online, a computer store in Queensland, we have the following items:

Intel ATX E8500 CORE 2 DUO/3.16GHz/6MB/1333FSB/LGA775
Instock $290.00
Gigabyte GA-EP43-DS3L P43+ICH10 DDR2 1200 1600 (O.C)MHz FSB PCI-E 2.0 SATAII GLAN 8Ch Audio ATX Ultr
Instock $177.00
Kingston DDR2 4(2x2G)PC6400 800Mhz - KVR800D2N5K2/4G
Instock $60.00
Western Digital 500G SATAII 7200 rpm HDD Green Power
Instock $96.00
LG DVD22X+- DUAL LAYER DVD Rewriter with Software(GH22NP20)
Instock $30.00
Gigabyte GF9400GT 1GB DDR2 PCIE2.0 2xDVI HDTV HDCP ATX
Instock $99.00
Omni 4710 Desktop case Black with 500W PSU
Outofstock $80.00
Samsung 24 inch 2433BW 5ms Wide TFT Monitor Black$50 cashback
Instock $376.00

Total internet price A$1208 or US$828.14 based on yesterday's exchange rate.

Now, I'm not being snooty, I really want to know what advantage a Mac has over a PC that less than half the price doesn't compensate them for.

[Wonderbread Leotard]

And you call me creepy. Get a life, man. They're all just computer systems, nothing more.

[Deadlokd]

Too intellectually curious for you? Feeling threatened?

[Qingdai]

See the first problem is that many of us don't buy new things.
Check the resale value of each machine, then we can talk. People make a bunch of money when you buy something new, like a car. Not so much when it's used.
Would you rather have a used Honda Accord or a used Ford Mustang?

Used Mac FAQ | PowerMax

[Deadlokd]

It's a different world then. With a PC, you upgrade bit at a time, over time, with a Mac you upgrade the lot (unless you're CaDan) so you need a high resell value. Some of the parts from my last computer are still in use, two HDs, RAM, optical drive. I don't need to resell them, and the prices they sell for new make them throwaway anyway.

I don't know if this an advantage for PCs, but when put with the starting cost and the ease of upgrading, still in my opinion, puts PCs ahead.

The only two advantages I can think of are that Macs look pretty, the Macbook Air is sexy, and there are no viruses written for OS-X. To offset those advantages, there are some very pretty cases out there for PCs and anti-virus software is plentiful, and in some cases free.

[Wonderbread Leotard]

Originally Posted by Deadlokd

Too intellectually curious for you? Feeling threatened?

No, just kidding around. Carry on.

[rigorist]

You need to add to the home-brew side (just to make the comparison accurate):

Keyboard
Mouse
OS

It doesn't add a lot, but those are a few costs.

[Deadlokd]

Cool, I thought I had everything, my bad.

Asus PS/2 Keyboard Instock $14.00

Deluxe USB Optical mouse Instock $10.00

Microsoft Windows XP PRO (OEM) Instock $226.00

I'm not sure whether XP Home or Pro would be closer to OS-X so I went with Pro. Added cost A$250.00.

New price US$999.53

[ceptimus]

Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex is free and better than Win XP.

[ChuckF]

So is a bag of my poop.*

Limited time offer. One per customer.

[rigorist]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

So is a bag of my poop.*

Limited time offer. One per customer.

Is that the Home or the Pro version?

[ChuckF]

It's the Media Center version. Don't get greedy!

[slimshady2357]

Chuck is a 2fer, the Home version is the Pro version!

[rigorist]

Originally Posted by Deadlokd

Cool, I thought I had everything, my bad.

I'm not sure whether XP Home or Pro would be closer to OS-X so I went with Pro. Added cost A$250.00.

New price US$999.53

Oops, needs a camera, too.

[rigorist]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

It's the Media Center version. Don't get greedy!

Oh, so it's a bag of poop full of DRM shit.

So, it's like twice the scat for the same price. Cool. Where do I email my credit card number?

[ChuckF]

Personally I wouldn't buy either of the items listed above, but if given the choice between a) a more expensive computer (with a warranty) that I enjoy using and b) a cheaper computer that I do not enjoy using and have to build myself, then I will go with option a). Is this really so difficult to grasp?

[Ensign Steve]

Apparently it is.

[Farren]

Originally Posted by Qingdai

See the first problem is that many of us don't buy new things.
Check the resale value of each machine, then we can talk. People make a bunch of money when you buy something new, like a car. Not so much when it's used.
Would you rather have a used Honda Accord or a used Ford Mustang?

Used Mac FAQ | PowerMax

How is this an advantage? Sure, it means your PC depreciates faster, but it also means you can buy an equivalent spec second hand PC for much less. Which makes the PC a better buy if you're a buyer in the second hand market. I'm not sure how your car comparisons help either. We're talking about equivalent spec. I've kept my nephews in constant supply of second hand PCs their parents couldn't afford throughout their formative years. That's three nephews, one gaming spec machine apiece. And I'm not a rich man.

To be honest, I think Macs are a little more robust than PCs, but certainly not enough to warrant the price difference. Even the difference in robustness has a lot to do with the assembly. People often skimp on the stuff that makes your equipment last longer with PCs, but at a neglible extra cost for individual hard drive fans, extra mainboard cooling and professional assembly you can get an equivalent spec PC as robust as any Mac and still much cheaper.

I'm not too fussy about robustness because I normally upgrade before parts give out, but I have a friend who builds all his machines for robustness and believe me, they're Mac-robust at at least a third less cost.

If its for the prettah I can understand, because I know some people put more stock in asthetics than me when it comes to computing. But it seems to me that PC has a clear advantage in most other areas.

[ceptimus]

[Farren]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Personally I wouldn't buy either of the items listed above, but if given the choice between a) a more expensive computer (with a warranty) that I enjoy using and b) a cheaper computer that I do not enjoy using and have to build myself, then I will go with option a). Is this really so difficult to grasp?

As I said on the browser thread, there's a company up the road from me that will allow you to spec exactly the machine you want, then charge you R50 ($6.5) for a professional assembly. They also extend the warranty on all the parts by two years if you pay the assembly cost, since they trust their own handiwork more. And the cost difference is so neglible it completely eliminates the percieved advantage you've articulated.

[ChuckF]

Thanks company up the road from Farren!

Anyway, I wouldn't buy a PC even if I could spec exactly what I want and get the warranty. I don't enjoy using them. I will stick with a Mac for reasons expressed in the browser thread.

Of course, I only buy laptops. I haven't had a personal desktop in years. I guess desktops are easier to build from components.

[Farren]

I think Deadlokd's motive in starting this thread wasn't so much to convince the die-hard Mac user's on this forum that they should stop using Macs so much as to establish, from the available evidence, which is a more sensible option. And from the evidence presented the PC wins hands down.

I like OSX, personally. But you can customise both Linux and Windows XP so that they have all the bells and whistles I like about OSX, so even the OS isn't a such big selling point.

You're welcome to stick with Macs if you're more comfortable using them, Chuck, no-ones gonna hate you for it. We might view that choice with some bemusement, but we won't think less of you for it

[seebs]

People don't actually want drills. They want holes. Drills are purchased as a way to make holes.

Specs can prevent a computer from doing its job, but they can't make it do its job.

Let's give an example. There's a "SVCHOST.EXE" on my brother-in-law's computer which is going wild -- constant activity. What's it doing? We have no idea. Because every service is run as "generic host process for Microsoft Windows", there is no reasonable way for him to find out what it's doing, whether it's legitimate, or how to stop it. Best bet? Maybe a complete reinstall would make it go away. Maybe.

I do all the at-home tech support for the people I live with. It is probably not a coincidence that, in the last few years, I've had to reload the Mac laptop once (when replacing the hardware), and I've had to reload Windows machines four or five times, and sometimes one or two programs "just stop working". I have to fix server access at least once a month on the Windows machines; I've had to do it maybe twice in a year or two on the Mac, and at least one of those was just pilot error.

The question is what you want a machine to do. If you want it to run programs that you load on it, and not programs loaded on it for you by the helpful Russian spam gangs, then there does not exist an amount of money you can spend on a Windows machine to give you reasonable confidence that you'll get what you want.

Price out a Windows machine with full development tools (real ones, not some academic-use-only crap), with an operating system that can handle UNIX fork() semantics (so you can get livable performance from Unix-like apps, such as shell scripts, gcc, and so on), and reasonable baseline security. How much does that cost? Well, it's not for sale at any price.

Apple hardware is arguably overpriced. But I don't care; I'm buying a computer to get jobs done, and the Mac does it, and Windows doesn't.

[rigorist]

I should have laid folding money on a bet that seebs would show up in this thread.

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by Farren

You're welcome to stick with Macs if you're more comfortable using them, Chuck, no-ones gonna hate you for it.

Awww thanks!

We might view that choice with some bemusement,

I guess some folks are easier to bemuse than others.

but we won't think less of you for it

Just that I don't make very sensible choices, huh?