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  #251  
Old 09-27-2010, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

I'm wondering if there has been any recent research that would account for the existence (as in evolution) of the domestic muscovy duck.

People in the bird-hobbyist world are taught that it was developed from the "wild muscovy" which looks like a smaller version of the domestic muscovy and also is a native of Central/South America.

Both ducks get referred to as "Cairina Moschata".

The wild:-

and the domestic:-


The problem with this popular belief is that the wild has a different number of chromosomes from the domestic and interbreeding (I'm told) produces sterile offspring.

As "hobby farmers" we keep an awful lot of these ducks - and I can't put my hand on my heart and tell people that they descended from the wild muscovy.
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  #252  
Old 09-27-2010, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Muscovy ducks have been domesticated on several different occasions, apparently. But most of the Domestic Muscovies encountered nowadays originated as hybrids between three different duck species.

Genetic analyses indicate that Domestic Muscovies originated from matings between female (Wild) Muscovies and males of two other wild duck species, the South American Comb Duck (Sarkidiornis melanotos) and the White-Winged Wood Duck (Cairina scutulata). Since White-Winged Wood Ducks are native to southeastern Asia, it seems likely that these matings didn't exactly happen entirely by accident.

Given that none of these three species are especially closely-related, fertility of hybrid offspring tends to be very low. On the other hand, if fertile male and/or female hybrids can be back-crossed with their ancestral species, this can result in stable gene lines and thus populations of animals that can interbreed among themselves. That appears to be how Domestic Muscovies arose.


When female wild Muscovies mate with South American Comb Ducks, female offspring are sterile and male offspring have very low fertility rates. Typically, only 1 in 30 hybrid males is fertile. But if one of these fertile males is then back-crossed with a wild female Muscovy, the two of them can produce fertile offspring that have roughly 3/4 wild Muscovy genes and 1/4 Comb Duck genes. Subsequent back-crosses would tend to dilute the number of Comb Duck genes in the population, but apparently, crosses such as these produced populations of ducks whose genes were mostly from wild Muscovies, with a few Comb Duck genes to boot.


Given that White-Winged Wood Ducks are much more closely-related to Muscovy Ducks than are Comb Ducks, crosses between wild female Muscovies and male White-Winged Wood Ducks typically produce fully-fertile male offspring.

At some point in the origination of the Domestic Muscovy Duck, it appears that female Muscovy/Comb Duck hybrids were crossed with White-Winged Wood Ducks. When male offspring of those unions were back-crossed with Muscovy/Comb Duck hybirds, the eventual result was what's now called the Domestic Muscovy Duck.


So, long story short: what you have in the Domestic Muscovy Duck is a bird whose genes are mostly inherited from Wild Muscovy Ducks. But they also have some genes that were inherited from South American Comb Ducks, as well as some inherited from White-Winged Wood Ducks.


Hope that helps!


Michael
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  #253  
Old 09-28-2010, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

That certainly does help Michael - many thanks!
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  #254  
Old 10-07-2010, 06:57 AM
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DANGER GIIMOOZAABI!

I believe the data you argue from are non-existent.

I don’t think you should trust messybeast’s info (your source I gather). Her references seem to average about 1935 and her most recent was almost 3 decades ago. In short, that domestic Muscovy Duck creation story was probably somebody’s guess based on knowledge of Gray’s 1958 “Bird Hybrids” and how some domestic Muscovy Duck mutations resembled bits of other species that all USED to be placed in the same PARAPHYLETIC group i.e. these species were all thrown into the same garbage group because pre-DNA technology nobody could figure out where they really belonged just like they used to put them into the Tree Duck group before they decided most members were really long-legged grass ducks.

The gerrymandering across continents, time, effort, and money required to make such matings (towards what end?) is mind-boggling. Crossing to the SE Asian White-Winged Wood Duck when domestic Muscovy Ducks had already reached Europe during the voyages of Columbus?? I don’t think so! Where are the studies? Where are the references? The studies I’ve heard about name the Wood Duck of North America as the Muscovy Duck’s closest living relative (both are cavity-nesters, large claws, wild-type duckling pattern with eye-stripe missing forward of eye is the same, etc). In places the Muscovy Duck is actually called the Greater Wood Duck.

Check out this site:

WILD MUSCOVY DUCKS

“Historically, Muscovies have been classified in a disparate tribe of waterfowl known as the perching ducks. Recent molecular research, however, suggests that Muscovies are not actually close relatives of many other species traditionally placed in this tribe (e.g., Comb duck, Sarkidiornis melanotos, and White-winged wood duck, Asacornis scutalata). This research, in addition to earlier studies of morphological characteristics, indicates that the Muscovy’s closest relative is the North American Wood duck (Aix sponsa). “

The Wood Duck reference this is based on appears to be this:
Johnson, K.J. & M.D. Sorenson. 1999. Phylogeny and biogeography of the dabbling ducks (Genus: Anas): A comparison of molecular and morphological evidence. The Auk 116: 792-805.

Sadly Paul Dye died several years ago. I saw the wild birds he had and he mentioned that over time their average weight had increased. He attributed this to the heaviest drakes being able to dominate and sequester females in the caged environment they were in. Why cage them? So they won’t breed with the domestic Muscovy Ducks he had! They looked extremely similar to domestic birds with wild-type plumage.

The Donkin book has some fascinating information. One thing I learned was that things believed to be from Africa were often given the first name “Guinea” (e.g. Guinea Pig which is actually from Peru!) and things believed to be from Asia were often given the first name “Turkey” (as the proximate representative of that continent - “Asia Minor”). In Brazil the other domesticated New World Fowl known to people from the USA as a “Turkey” (guess why!) was there called “Gallinho do Peru” or “Peruvian Chicken”, and was abbreviated to “Peru” on menus. I hadn’t read this book when I saw Peru on the menu in Brazil and you bet that cocked my hat!

• DONKIN, R.A. (1989): Muscovy duck, Cairina moschata domestica: Origins, Dispersal, and Associated Aspects of the Geography of Domestication. A.A. Balkema Publishers, B.R. Rotterdam.

Best non-academic book for color/pattern genetics is Storey’s Guide to Raising Ducks. Its genetics section is head, shoulders, and waist above others I have seen.

• HOLDERREAD, DAVID (2001): Storey's Guide to Raising Ducks. Storey Publishing, North Adams, MA. ISBN 1-58017-258-X

Online genetics summary here at bottom.

http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page6.html

Domestication of this species probably has occurred again and again. Inbreeding and artificial selection in the animal husbandry environment has probably led to many color/pattern mutations but in Europe this trend was probably the most severe as birds with as little pigment as possible were developed as this led to easier carcass assessment in the market. Interestingly, Asians prefer as dark a bird as possible.

High-end restaurants advertise Muscovy meat as low-fat duck. Well it’s a different species than a mallard derivative like the Pekin! The mallard as a temperate-region duck naturally has a thicker fat layer.

LISTENER, bird karyotypes are very hard to get correct due to the presence of lots of very small chromosomes. I was told that an accurate avian karyotype HAD NEVER BEEN DONE CONCLUSIVELY because of this. The Wojcik paper notes this in their discussion section and the diversity of opinion thus created. You could probably do it with enough time and money but why bother when it will soon be cheaper to just shotgun sequence their genome!

WÓJCIK, EWA & SMALEC, ELŻBIETA (2008): Description of the Muscovy Duck (Cairina moschata) Karyotype. Folia Biologica (Kraków) 56(3-4): 243-248. doi:10.3409/fb.56_3-4.243-248

I’ve never heard of any “interbreeding problems”. This remark was probably meant to refer to Muscovy/mallard derivative hybrids which are sterile (actually not strictly true, information from Taiwanese industry insiders indicates that while the great majority are sterile some are not - the % is very low but greater (I'm guessing) than fertile [horse/donkey] mules where the % is 1/10,000 due to rare chromosome translocations).

I’ve seen wild Muscovy Ducks in the Brazilian Pantanal and they are very wary birds which are harder to get closer to than about 200 feet. Most birds there are not so shy and I attribute this to hunting pressure. Area ranchers tell me that wild males will fly in and romance their domestic females on occasion. I have also seen domestic males in the wild romancing wild-looking females and I have seen birds which were perhaps wild/domestic F1s. Domestic Muscovy Ducks down there look like domestic Muscovy Ducks in the USA.

BOTTOMLINE: I know of no hard evidence that the domestic Muscovy is derived from anything but the wild Muscovy. Kinda reminds me of people arguing that the domestic chicken is not just from the Red Jungle Fowl but also the Green, the Gray, and whatnot. That’s more plausible. Whoa! Look at this. First convincing evidence of introgression into the domestic chicken from Gray Jungle Fowl (yellow skin gene). Still I say “Pshaw!” to the Comb/White-Winged/Muscovy scenario.

PLoS Genetics: Identification of the Yellow Skin Gene Reveals a Hybrid Origin of the Domestic Chicken
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  #255  
Old 10-07-2010, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

I must say, I have never seen such an epic post about the Great Muscovy Duck Controversy.
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  #256  
Old 10-07-2010, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Thanks for taking the time SFer.

I must say that now I am just confused.

I got the impression that Michael was working from genetic information not old morphology stuff and using recent research - as I asked of him in the O.P.

*******

Some of our domestic muscovies have the wild-type colouring -





These are some juveniles I 'shot' a couple of minutes ago.

We call them self-black and if they became feral they would look much like the birds in the photograph you posted.

I must say that sexual behaviour between different species is commonplace. It's only a couple of weeks since I personally witnessed a cockerel treading a muscovy duck. Muscovy drakes have a very strong sex drive and will tread muscovies or mallard-derived ducks, male or female, indiscriminately. Any wild/domestic 'romancing' is not to be wondered at.

As I said - I'm just confused.
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  #257  
Old 10-08-2010, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFer;877175 [/b
I’ve never heard of any “interbreeding problems”. This remark was probably meant to refer to Muscovy/mallard derivative hybrids which are sterile (actually not strictly true, information from Taiwanese industry insiders indicates that while the great majority are sterile some are not - the % is very low but greater (I'm guessing) than fertile [horse/donkey] mules where the % is 1/10,000 due to rare chromosome translocations).

As a practical poultry breeder, I'm wondering how this anecdote stands up!

How do "Taiwanese industry insiders" test it?

Female hybrids do not (cannot) lay. Male hybrids have testes and exhibit sexual behaviour (with virtually any available bird). With what species duck do the Taiwanese mate their moulard drakes to find out that some are fertile? Why?

Experiments would need to be carried out indoors or visiting fertile mallards or muscovy drakes would ruin everything.

How could industry insiders incubate (and so waste) so many eggs? It would be a mammoth task for disciplined scientists with money to burn.

What was your expression?

Pshaw!

I'm afraid your post - and your assertions with it - is beginning to look rather ragged.

HYBRID FOWL

Seems, largely, to agree with Michael's information. Why didn't you ask him if he used it or has fresh data that confirm it?

He hasn't called you "Tonto".
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

For what it's worth, I have no idea who "messybeast" might be. My source is an ornithologist of my acquaintance. Of course, it is always possible that she (and therefore I) was mistaken.

Regardless, as I pointed out, it's more or less certain that Muscovy Ducks have been domesticated on numerous occasions, and so there will doubtless be genetic differences between populations of domestic birds that had different origins.

The most recent analysis I've found that directly compares the genetics of wild vs. domestic muscovies clearly establishes that the domestic birds are indeed derived from wild muscovy stock, which is certainly no surprise. This particular study involved only one population of domestic birds, however (of South American origin), and a somewhat small sample size. Given this and the fact that they were only looking at microsatellite data in order to assess genetic variability, they didn't try to establish domestic muscovy origins, other than noting that the data are consistent with the conclusion that the overwhelming genetic contribution to domestic muscovies is from the wild muscovy. They did note some sequences that seem suspiciously like they came from somewhere else, but I haven't as of yet come across any serious attempt to quantify the exact genetic origin(s) of domestic muscovies.

My colleague insists that there have been studies showing that some genes from White-Winged Wood Ducks have made their way into Asian-originated domestic muscovies, but I haven't been able to locate any definitive studies to document that.

What the genetic studies I have located have clearly indicated is that the great majority -- at least -- of Domestic Muscovies' genetic makeup is derived from Wild Muscovy ancestors.


Cheers,

Michael
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  #259  
Old 10-14-2010, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Sock Puppet View Post
I must say, I have never seen such an epic post about the Great Muscovy Duck Controversy.
Hang on, its going to be a bumpy ride.
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Old 10-14-2010, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Listener View Post
Thanks for taking the time SFer.

I must say that now I am just confused.

I got the impression that Michael was working from genetic information not old morphology stuff and using recent research - as I asked of him in the O.P.
If there is crossing data that shows fertile hybrid comb/muscovy males were backcrossed to Muscovy females…that doesn’t mean the crossing went beyond that in an attempt to bring some attribute (what?) to domestic muscovy stocks….which already existed! Which means that even if somebody was hell bent on this it only existed in their little corner of the world. The domestic Muscovy was already developed in the New World (Donkin shows a Spanish(?) lithograph(?) of black and white large waterfowl and argues persuasively (to me at least) that these and the “tame geese” Columbus found with the Caribbean Amerinds WERE domestic Muscovy Ducks and were taken to Europe after his first voyage (as I recall).

Thanks for the photos. Young female lower left looks like one white gene (and maybe white-head?) and barred. Center right is a...what...white + silver? (two codominant blue genes) or is it a Lavender? The two mallard derivatives with their heads in the water bucket - are those blue fawns? They look like muscovy blue fawns which are a two gene phenotype one blue gene and chocolate. I don't know mallards well but as I recall mallard blue fawns are a 3 mutant gene phenotype. Chocolate in muscovies is homologous to buff in mallards but I don't know if the rest were shown not to be homologous or what.
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Old 10-14-2010, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

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Originally Posted by Listener View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFer;877175 [/b
I’ve never heard of any “interbreeding problems”. This remark was probably meant to refer to Muscovy/mallard derivative hybrids which are sterile (actually not strictly true, information from Taiwanese industry insiders indicates that while the great majority are sterile some are not - the % is very low but greater (I'm guessing) than fertile [horse/donkey] mules where the % is 1/10,000 due to rare chromosome translocations).

As a practical poultry breeder, I'm wondering how this anecdote stands up!
Well you got me there. The Tawainese assertion is a third hand appeal to authority – but it convinced me. Long story alert – about 5-10 years ago on the the-Coop.org genetics forum there was a University of Kentucky Professor who posted using a Japanese-sounding name that started with “O”. (as I recall - Goosedragon would remember his name if you know Goosedragon). He did quite a bit of Mendelian genetics research using his own chicken flock and was pretty much the person people turned to as an ultimate authority on domestic fowl genetics. One day he posted to my surprise (since I had always heard Muscovy/mallard derivative hybrids were sterile) that information that he said he had been told (and I infer he believed) by Tawainese Industry insiders (I think he visited Taiwan). I have little knowledge beyond that. I do know that Taiwan has a massive duck industry - 30 million plus according to a quick internet search.

Quote:
HYBRID FOWL

Seems, largely, to agree with Michael's information. Why didn't you ask him if he used it or has fresh data that confirm it?
Oh I'll interrogate Michael alright LOL. <cracks knuckles> Meanwhile, er, I'm confused, you do realize that the website you reference is the one I was trying to warn about? Also, did you get the point about avian karyotyping?

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  #262  
Old 10-14-2010, 11:17 AM
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For what it's worth, I have no idea who "messybeast" might be. My source is an ornithologist of my acquaintance. Of course, it is always possible that she (and therefore I) was mistaken.

Regardless, as I pointed out, it's more or less certain that Muscovy Ducks have been domesticated on numerous occasions, and so there will doubtless be genetic differences between populations of domestic birds that had different origins.

The most recent analysis I've found that directly compares the genetics of wild vs. domestic muscovies clearly establishes that the domestic birds are indeed derived from wild muscovy stock, which is certainly no surprise. This particular study involved only one population of domestic birds, however (of South American origin), and a somewhat small sample size. Given this and the fact that they were only looking at microsatellite data in order to assess genetic variability, they didn't try to establish domestic muscovy origins, other than noting that the data are consistent with the conclusion that the overwhelming genetic contribution to domestic muscovies is from the wild muscovy. They did note some sequences that seem suspiciously like they came from somewhere else, but I haven't as of yet come across any serious attempt to quantify the exact genetic origin(s) of domestic muscovies.

My colleague insists that there have been studies showing that some genes from White-Winged Wood Ducks have made their way into Asian-originated domestic muscovies, but I haven't been able to locate any definitive studies to document that.

What the genetic studies I have located have clearly indicated is that the great majority -- at least -- of Domestic Muscovies' genetic makeup is derived from Wild Muscovy ancestors.


Cheers,

Michael
1) Messybeast is the website Listener refers to. Please ask your ornithologist acquaintance where she got this idea along with any sources, primary or otherwise. The only other place I can currently find it on is avianweb which references itself and wiki. The current wiki page makes no mention of this.

2) An internet version of Handbook of Avian Hybrids of the World by Eugene M. McCarthy (2006) has these data:

Cairina moschata[Muscovy Duck]
XCairina scutulata[White-winged Wood
Duck] CHR. DRS. Internet: OBAY.
XSarkidiornis melanotos[Comb Duck]
CHR. DRS. Phillips 1923–1926.
CHR=Captive hybrids reported. DRS=disjunct ranges. I guess somebody named Obay sent in the WWWD report. The Comb Duck report is perhaps from John Charles Phillips who wrote “A Natural History of the Ducks”. $50 in 1922. OW. :eek:

Years ago I got Gray’s 1958 Bird Hybrids by interlibrary loan. Not a great deal of data before 1900 and even after 1900 the quality and quantity of data per report varied greatly. Might yet be able to find some Xerox copies of Muscovy data I made.

Perhaps there is more information online or if somebody has access to the McCarthy or the Phillips book/report I would greatly appreciate any information they might have.

3) What is the reference for the analysis you talk about regarding the genetics of wild vs. domestic muscovies?

4) Does your acquaintance know about any references regarding WWWD genes in Asian-originated domestic muscovies?

Here is my argument: Lets assume the 1923-1926 Phillips data contains the 1/30 fertile hybrid male report and reports of backcrossing. Its still about 300-400 years too late! Even if the domestic muscovies brought back with Columbus died there is a 1555 report of them from France. Italy 1603. Taiwan 1693. Linnaeus named it in 1758. At about the same time there are references like a rash all over especially France where they became a popular special occasion feast bird (as I recall from Donkin). Here’s a link to Crawford covering some of this information.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VMS...illips&f=false

Thus, the domestic Muscovy Duck was already widely spread and well established….its too late to cross in Comb Duck hybrids and claim you’ve founded the domestic Muscovy….and there’s still the WWWD to go. Ok, what if the WWWD and Comb duck were crossed into domestic muscovies pre-Columbus? Good luck getting those records, gerrymandering etc.

I persist in asserting that Occam and His Razor (bows head) are betting heavily on this argument and the one I posted earlier. Amen.
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  #263  
Old 03-24-2011, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Some kids at a birthday party in the woods here in the Netherlands discovered (and filmed) a very weird little critter:


It's up on Natuurmonumenten's YouTube site here. Natuurmonumenten is a not-for-profit organisation that buys up and manages nature. Although in this country no forests are natural, they have all been planted at some point by man (from the Middle Ages onward). Which makes it all the more weird that an unknown animal could be walking around in one.

Oh. So my question is: wtf is that? They have been naming it 'fluitegel' = whistling hedgehog because it mostly looks like a hedgehog and it makes a whistling sound apparently.
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  #264  
Old 03-24-2011, 02:59 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

I don't know what it really is but that's pretty much what I imagined a billy bumbler from the Dark Tower series would look like. Also, I want one. Or ten.
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  #265  
Old 03-24-2011, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Almost looks like a chinchilla, but the face is too sharp. I'm curious as to what it is, too.

(yes, I know chinchillas are SA-I'm thinking escaped or loosed pet of some kind)

Interesting front-facing eyes.
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  #266  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Definitely a Pokemon. :unnod:
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  #267  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

I can't be certain from the video, but it looks like a Desert Hedgehog, also known as a Long-Eared Hedgehog (Paraechinus aethiopicus). They're native to the desert regions of northern Africa and the Arabian Peninsula.

My guess is that it's a pet that escaped (or was released) into the wild. Desert hedgehogs have much larger ears than do European Hedgehogs, an adaptation to help them shed excess heat more efficiently. (This is the same reason that Fennecs and Kit Foxes have such large ears.)



Cheers,

Michael
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  #268  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Billy bumblers are a lot bigger than that - more dog sized - although the face is how I imagine them.

I'll definitely go with escaped pet rather than a native mammal.

Unless it's the rare long-tailed fox-eared hedgehog.*

*As confirmed by TLR via sneaky-in posting.
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  #269  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

That seems plausible. I guess it won't need to shed much heat here.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

It's obviously adapted to Dutch conditions though: in the last seconds of the video it plugs itself into a hole in the dyke.
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  #271  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Hedgehogs don't have tails that long, though. So I'm still puzzled.
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  #272  
Old 03-24-2011, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Yeah, there is that.
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  #273  
Old 03-24-2011, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Though it isn't evident in the picture I posted, Desert Hedgehogs have much longer tails than do European Hedgehogs. A European hedgehog's tail is usually only 1/2 an inch long or less. A desert hedgehog's tail is 6 inches or more long.

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  #274  
Old 03-24-2011, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Wait until Wilders hears of this infiltration by desert dwelling foreigners!
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  #275  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: A Question For The Lone Ranger

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger View Post
(This is the same reason that Fennecs and Kit Foxes have such large ears.)
OMG, those are so cute!
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